Revised Arcanist Discussion


Class Discussion

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Taenia wrote:

Out of curiousity

Each day when
preparing spells, the arcanist’s arcane reservoir fills with
raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to
1 + 1/2 her arcanist level (minimum 0).

How do you get down to 0 if you start with 1 + 1/2 level? I mean I have heard of negative levels but not effecting this kind of ability.

You can't get down to zero anyway I know. But if something came up that would reduce it below 0, then it doesn't work. Hah, as if you could have negative points in a pool like that.

They clearly meant the + .5*Level is minimum 0, but it isn't clear.


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The Flame Arc is worthless. Beyond the fact that fire resistance is extremely common, it requires a touch attack and a reflex save.

Touch AC is basically your ability to dodge attacks incoming attacks. Reflex is your ability to dodge AoE abilities. So, the enemy being attacked by Flame Arc has to dodge the attack, then dodge it again?

How does that even make sense?

I would also have to say that all of the greater blast exploits are pretty much worthless except the Ice one, and that's only because they take Dex damage every round trapped in the ice. The Acid one is the next best as it has the potential to do some ~ok damage over time.


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The arcanist is still an interesting class. Unlike most, I don't feel that the ability to change your known spells is over the top and needs to gimp every other class feature by extension.

First impression of the revision: A very top-heavy class. At higher levels you have the spell slots to actually use your exploits. This is also where all the spell flexibility really matters - a standard loadout does well at lower levels.

Also prone to 15 minute adventuring days, but I never saw this as a very big problem. Spend one day scrying, the next fighting with an optimized spell loadout.

At lower levels you have... basically nothing. No arcane reserve, very few spells per day, no interesting exploits unless you gimp yourself for later by picking up the new arcane school stuff that doesn't cost any arcane reservoir.

Positive changes: That you can get the wizards level 1 school powers means and that these do not cost any arcane pool means you can get low-level non-spell blasts to make up for your low spells/day. The drawback of course is that these very quickly become obsolete. Simply removing the cost of the blast exploits would have been better, but still a sub-par option.

Some things have become clearer.

Proposed further changes: Larger initial arcane reservoir, possibly harder to recharge. Perhaps having it start at Int mod + Cha mod and not grow over levels.

Liberty's Edge

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So, I have noticed that there is almost no reason to have any measurable CHA for the arcanist. Certain blast exploits and the bloodline power are the only abilities I see which key off of CHA. I doubt many will bother with getting enough CHA to bother with the blast exploits which are CHA based saves. I feel the Arcanist needs more reason for CHA or to just swap the saves to INT.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Very glad to see that the lightning lance exploit was improved in terms of the condition it inflicts. Overall, rather pleased. :)


Tels wrote:

The Flame Arc is worthless. Beyond the fact that fire resistance is extremely common, it requires a touch attack and a reflex save.

Touch AC is basically your ability to dodge attacks incoming attacks. Reflex is your ability to dodge AoE abilities. So, the enemy being attacked by Flame Arc has to dodge the attack, then dodge it again?

How does that even make sense?

I always thought touch AC was "This is how difficult it is for your attack to hit me at all" and normal AC was "This is how difficult it is for the attack to affect me, even if it hits." Attacks that target touch AC penetrate armor and other protections as if they were nothing.

Grand Lodge

Overall I really like this class. It has grown strongly.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I'm really liking where they have taken the class. Being able to pick up very simple versions of either wizard schools or sorcerer bloodlines gives you a lot of fun options for focusing on certain types of spells. I still don't understand the cries of "this makes the Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch OBSOLETE" because it is a completely different type of caster than all of those, and I don't see the overpowered-ness. I'll build a few Arcanists of different levels with the new rules and see what I come up with.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh Mama, THIS is what I was looking for.

Spells per day could use a bit of fixing. But that's it.

Dark Archive

Bloodline Development and School Understanding (and Potent Magic):

Orc Bloodline with Evocation Admixture. Probably the best blaster in the game.

Fey Bloodline with Enchanter school. With PM, that's +6 to the DC, you will charm anything susceptible.

Martyred Bloodline and Void school allow you to ruin saving throws.

Air School is great too, Fly at 10th level for 1 Arcane point. Don't know what it mixes well with.

The odd thing is that these combinations make the Arcanist possibly more specialized than the Wiz or Sorc, which is a surprise.


Question: Void school's Reveal Weakness ability explicitly references your Caster Level, rather than your Wizard Level. Does this mean the ability scales with your Arcanist CL?


I still want an exploit that gives me a familiar, unless I missed it and there's already one there.

And I still see the arcane reservoir not being based on CHA as a problem. CHA + 1/2 level I think balances the class a lot better than 1+ 1/2 level. It rewards the player for not maxing his INT and DEX.

Overall I feel this is a very strong class and I can't wait to make one from the real book.


Captain K. wrote:
Orc Bloodline with Evocation Admixture. Probably the best blaster in the game.

It is decent but you lack a +1damage/die from the second bloodline and cant really afford to grab a level of sorcerer to get it.

Quote:
Fey Bloodline with Enchanter school. With PM, that's +6 to the DC, you will charm anything susceptible.

I dont see anything in Enchantment which adds to DC.


master_marshmallow wrote:
I still want an exploit that gives me a familiar, unless I missed it and there's already one there.

Skill Focus (Any Knowledge), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane). Mind the CHA requirement.


Craft Cheese wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
I still want an exploit that gives me a familiar, unless I missed it and there's already one there.
Skill Focus (Any Knowledge), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane). Mind the CHA requirement.

That's not an exploit. Both of the parent classes have the ability to gain a familiar, it makes no sense to me that this class cannot, even as a class option.

I shouldn't have to waste feats for something that I should be able to have anyway.


Why would anyone take the counterspell exploit now? If you want to counterspell your enemy's highest level spell, you have to be three levels higher than him. When was the last time the enemy casters where underleveled compared to the party?


I'm loving the revised Arcanist. The addition of the bloodline and school powers introduce more flavor to this child of the sorcerer and wizard. It also addresses my biggest concern, which was having a low grade blast at low levels. I'm really happy to see this.

I do suspect that opening up some of the sorcerer bloodlines is going to lead to some crazy high DC builds, but I have a feeling that Andreww is going to make that blatantly obvious once he starts posting his play tests again.

Perhaps if the Devs limited the bloodline and school power exploits so that they couldn't choose the choicest sorcerer and wizard options? It could be an overly complicated solution though.

Another thought is allowing the Arcanist to take either a bloodline or a school power but not both.

Lowering the maximum amount of Arcane points was wise.

I'm happy to see the blasts improve. I think they're on the right track, but still need improvement. As things stand, they're just not viable for use through the adventuring day. A point per use isn't worth it at low and mid levels, which is what these blasts seem designed for. By levels 12 and up, the Arcanist has enough spells that he has better blasting options, and will likely want to save arcane points for potent spells. To make effective use of the blasts, we need a way to get more of them.

How about this? When you spend an arcane point to use a blast ( or 2 to use a greater blast) you can use it an unlimited amount of times for a minute times your Arcanist level. This lets us spend a point to gain the blast for a fight or two, and gives the mid level Arcanist a weak blast as a fallback option so she can conserve spells.

Side note- I'm willing to bet the Arcanist Iconic will be female. The witch and wizard are male so it would balance the female casters.


Mystically Inclined wrote:
I do suspect that opening up some of the sorcerer bloodlines is going to lead to some crazy high DC builds, but I have a feeling that Andreww is going to make that blatantly obvious once he starts posting his play tests again.

It seems sufficiently obvious that I plan on not bothering, instead I am going to give a low OP arcanist version a go. DC24 confusion at level 8 and upwards from there is just a bit crazy.

Quote:
Lowering the maximum amount of Arcane points was wise.

This doesnt really change much of anything except at level 20. You dont need more than about 6-8 points in your pool at the start of any encounter so by level 5 its an irrelevant limitation.


Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Why would anyone take the counterspell exploit now? If you want to counterspell your enemy's highest level spell, you have to be three levels higher than him. When was the last time the enemy casters where underleveled compared to the party?

Because enemies dont always lead off with their highest level spells.

Because if you have the spell you are using then it still counts.

Because at higher levels because they are also quickening a lower level spell as well as casting a hugher level one for improved action economy.


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Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Why would anyone take the counterspell exploit now? If you want to counterspell your enemy's highest level spell, you have to be three levels higher than him. When was the last time the enemy casters where underleveled compared to the party?

Yeah, I have to agree. I definitely think the stronger elements of the class should be nerfed to keep it from being out of control, but the dispel exploit didn't need it. In the one play test I saw that featured a counter spelling Arcanist beating up a spell caster, the abuse came from the staff and misreading the rules. The counter spell ability itself was fine.

Liberty's Edge

Is there something game-breaking about Arcane Bond that I'm missing? I can get it with a pair of feats anyway, why bother restricting it if I take the Arcane Bloodline using one of my much more valuable Exploit slots?


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Mystically Inclined wrote:
Side note- I'm willing to bet the Arcanist Iconic will be female. The witch and wizard are male so it would balance the female casters.

I don't see how you can mistake the witch for a man.


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Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Mystically Inclined wrote:
Side note- I'm willing to bet the Arcanist Iconic will be female. The witch and wizard are male so it would balance the female casters.
I don't see how you can mistake the witch for a man.

*Looks it up* Um, wow. Never mind then. I was thinking of a Witch character that I occasionally play alongside in Society.

(Somewhere, Gustavo is cackling madly right now...)


andreww wrote:
Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Why would anyone take the counterspell exploit now? If you want to counterspell your enemy's highest level spell, you have to be three levels higher than him. When was the last time the enemy casters where underleveled compared to the party?

Because enemies dont always lead off with their highest level spells.

Because if you have the spell you are using then it still counts.

Because at higher levels because they are also quickening a lower level spell as well as casting a hugher level one for improved action economy.

The first I don't agree with (except for buff spells), the second is highly unlikely, as you have few spells known. The third one I agree, sort of.

Sovereign Court

Arcanist, no complaints here, this is exactly what I wanted for one of my characters.


Mystically Inclined wrote:
Amaranthine Witch wrote:
Mystically Inclined wrote:
Side note- I'm willing to bet the Arcanist Iconic will be female. The witch and wizard are male so it would balance the female casters.
I don't see how you can mistake the witch for a man.

*Looks it up* Um, wow. Never mind then. I was thinking of a Witch character that I occasionally play alongside in Society.

(Somewhere, Gustavo is cackling madly right now...)

All the language in the Arcanist uses "she" as its pronoun so yes, probably female.


andreww wrote:
Captain K. wrote:
Orc Bloodline with Evocation Admixture. Probably the best blaster in the game.

It is decent but you lack a +1damage/die from the second bloodline and cant really afford to grab a level of sorcerer to get it.

You couldn't take a level of Sorcerer to get it anyway. Arcanists cannot take Sorcerer levels (See the Alternate Class rules)


DarthPinkHippo wrote:

I could see taking the Sylvan bloodline, then for a number of times per day unleash a stronger animal companion.

"I usually keep my pet tiger cub close, but in a jiffy he'll be happily hacking lives while I hack magic!"

Could Sylvan even be taken? It's an altered Bloodline from a Sorcerer archetype, not a bloodline of its own.


See Magic is now the coolest ability this class has. I am definitely taking that when I get to level 3.


Captain K. wrote:

Bloodline Development and School Understanding (and Potent Magic):

Fey Bloodline with Enchanter school. With PM, that's +6 to the DC, you will charm anything susceptible.

I'm coming up with +4 for that combination. How do you get to +6?

Dark Archive

Robert A Matthews wrote:
Captain K. wrote:

Bloodline Development and School Understanding (and Potent Magic):

Fey Bloodline with Enchanter school. With PM, that's +6 to the DC, you will charm anything susceptible.
I'm coming up with +4 for that combination. How do you get to +6?

Yup, +4, sorry.

I thinking of Spell Focus and Varisian Tattoo, that will get +6 (not bad options for an Arcanist)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Varisian Tattoo boosts CL, not DC.

Sovereign Court

or just go Kitsune if you are going to focus on enchantment for maximum cheese.


alright, now that i've got time to really pour over the arcanist's revision, i'm liking some of the powers (school understanding, bloodline development, and (greater) metamagic knowledge/metamixing make for a really flexible arcanist).

consume magic item got a nerf, but eh.

counterspell + counter drain is still decent, and the disrupt spell ones are okay as well.

spell tinkerer can no longer psuedo-permanance things (until higher level buffs come about, anyway), so that's okay.

on the elemental blasts:
-fire is rather meh (better base dice than the others, but no nifty bonus effects, and can be reflexed for half, unlike the others), the greater version's 3d6 after-burn is nice i suppose.
-cold is alright--staggered is good, but fort save is bad. the greater makes this staggered+entangled with dex damage in subsequent rounds (if they fail the aforementioned fort save), but is far too easy to break out of (DC 10+cha at level 10 and beyond is laughable).
-lightning is alright (effectively granting concealment is pretty cool), but the greater is kind of dumb--it lets you deal splash damage for half, that they can halve AGAIN if they make a save.
-acid seems pretty good, but it's in much the same boat as ice--fort saves to negate the bonuses, but the greater makes it decent to sling at casties--bonus damage in subsequent rounds means concentration checks to cast, which is somewhat helpful, even if it halves each turn.

-force is alright for sustained damage i guess, but it doesnt get a greater version for some reason. i'd love to see a toppling spell-esque greater exploit for it.

i'd add a feat or exploit for arcanists to bump the bace dice of the blasts up a step, but other than that minor quibble i'm rather happy with how the class looks.

.

also in case anyone hasnt pointed it out yet, theres an error in the ice missile entry:
"Ice Missile (Su): The arcanist can create missile made
of freezing ice by expending one point from her arcane
reservoir."
There should be an "a" in between create and missile.


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LadyWurm wrote:
- d4 hit die, indicating that they're even more of a shut-in than Wizards.

I must disagree. D4 as a hit dice was ridiculous and should remain dead and gone forever without ever coming back in Pathfinder.

Quote:
- Instead of all simple weapons, maybe just a couple (dagger and stick :D).

Really, that will change little without being a really meaningful limitation. Also, staff should have priority over dagger for weapon available for an ultimate caster.


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Tels wrote:
The Flame Arc is worthless. Beyond the fact that fire resistance is extremely common, it requires a touch attack and a reflex save.

I agree that saving throw for half damage is overkill for flame arc - ranged touch attack is enough for its damage.


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Drejk wrote:
LadyWurm wrote:
- d4 hit die, indicating that they're even more of a shut-in than Wizards.
I must disagree. D4 as a hit dice was ridiculous and should remain dead and gone forever without ever coming back in Pathfinder.

Seconded with the fury of a thousand suns.


Hasn't the nerf to Consume Magic items actually made it useless as opposed to it being mostly useless? If you eat a charge off of a staff, you're going to later on spend spell slots to recharge that staff.

At the best case scenario that I can think of this is burning an exploit to do something you can already do, just by burning those spell slots.

The way it was written earlier I could create a battery during down time using those spell slots to recharge my staff for when things hit the fan later on.

As it stands you will, at best, spend a first level spell slot to recharge your staff for one charge. That spell slot could just as easily be spent to just gain an arcane pool point.

Eventually, down the road, if you spend 22k gold, you could spend a level 5 spell slot to recharge a staff for 1 charge, which will later give you 2 points for your arcane pool. Or you could, y'know, sacrifice that slot for 5 points (or cast that very useful spell).

I guess if your GM sends you a lot of disposable potions and such this exploit is worth it. But my previous stance as that using a staff as a battery was the only way that exploit was worthwhile and now that's been removed. Does anyone have a way to change my mind on that?

This makes me sad, as the real appeal to me of the new vision of the arcanist was that drawing out and repurposing of magic from items and lingering effects.


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Orthos wrote:
Drejk wrote:
LadyWurm wrote:
- d4 hit die, indicating that they're even more of a shut-in than Wizards.
I must disagree. D4 as a hit dice was ridiculous and should remain dead and gone forever without ever coming back in Pathfinder.
Seconded with the fury of a thousand suns.

Trebly agree.

Assume that our caster has a CON of 16 (+3) and no feats like Toughness. With a d4, the maximum that he can have at 10th is 70, with a more likely HP of 50 (1.5 [rounded to 2, to be nice] times 10 + 3 times 10). The average creature damage at 10th is 33-45. That means the average Arcanist would survive . . . two attacks.

Yes, they're a bit of a glass cannon, but that's not 'glass cannon', that's 'wet paper cannon in a scissors factory'.


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I still see Consume Item as a viable option - you might need extra arcane reservoir points drained from a staff now. You can always recharge your staff in the future, using next day slots. You can't consume future spell slots for arcane reservoir normally.


Drejk wrote:
I still see Consume Item as a viable option - you might need extra arcane reservoir points drained from a staff now. You can always recharge your staff in the future, using next day slots. You can't consume future spell slots for arcane reservoir normally.

Right, but you could also buy 10 wands of magic missile for the price of the cheapest staff out there and you'd have 100 points of arcane pool that are available all day. You could use 100 points all in one day if you liked.


Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
Drejk wrote:
I still see Consume Item as a viable option - you might need extra arcane reservoir points drained from a staff now. You can always recharge your staff in the future, using next day slots. You can't consume future spell slots for arcane reservoir normally.
Right, but you could also buy 10 wands of magic missile for the price of the cheapest staff out there and you'd have 100 points of arcane pool that are available all day. You could use 100 points all in one day if you liked.

Yes. That would be more cost effective in short term. In very long term staff wins because with time-spanning campaign characters should enough off-screen time to recharge staves.

Also, you can always find yourself in circumstances when you have a staff at hand and need to get an arcane reserve points quickly.


Drejk wrote:
Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
Drejk wrote:
I still see Consume Item as a viable option - you might need extra arcane reservoir points drained from a staff now. You can always recharge your staff in the future, using next day slots. You can't consume future spell slots for arcane reservoir normally.
Right, but you could also buy 10 wands of magic missile for the price of the cheapest staff out there and you'd have 100 points of arcane pool that are available all day. You could use 100 points all in one day if you liked.

Yes. That would be more cost effective in short term. In very long term staff wins because with time-spanning campaign characters should enough off-screen time to recharge staves.

Also, you can always find yourself in circumstances when you have a staff at hand and need to get an arcane reserve points quickly.

1st level wands provide no charges. It has to have at least a 2nd level spell. Half spell level on non-staves, remember?

They took a HIGHLY situational exploit that could find a use with a Staff and made it almost useless. So with the same crap as before and one good thing nerfed, I don't see any good reason to take it.


I'd actually completely forgotten that. I'd mostly discounted the whole exploit other than the staff bit. Now it just seems to be wasted ink.

4500/10 pool points for wands does make a staff slightly more appealing.

Different approach: you can buy 4 runestones and have 4 extra spell slots / day that can be used for spells when you need them and pool points otherwise.

I'm pretty sure that any class feature (that's a primary class feature at least) shouldn't be something that you might sometimes find yourself in a position where it's useful.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Hey there folks,

There is some great feedback in this thread and I will be looking closely at a number of these issues. Of particular note:

- Table 1-1 has an obvious error with 4th and 5th levels being swapped in the title.
- We will be taking a close look at consume magic items to try and find a way to make this viable without breaking game balance. I've got a number of solutions in my head right now and I need to work with them a bit to find one that fits.
- The damage exploits are probably going to get a bit of a change to make them more viable.
- I plan on adding an exploit to get a familiar.
- Are there any other exploit ideas that folks would like to see. We've got a few that we are planning to add, but I want to see what you have to say.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
I'm pretty sure that any class feature (that's a primary class feature at least) shouldn't be something that you might sometimes find yourself in a position where it's useful.

Somewhere around 6th to 10th level, the need for using items to recharge the Arcane Reservoir shouldn't be an issue.

At level 6, you'll start with 4 Arcane Reserve. Sacrifice a 3rd level spell slot (leaving you with two) puts you up to 7 Arcane Reserve. At level 10, you'll start with 6 Arcane Reserve. Sacrfice a spell slot of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (leaving you with 4+ each and 3x 5th level spell slots) and you'll have 16 Arcane Reserve.

That's quite a bit to use.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

And FYI... RAW runestones do not work for consume spells class feature. That said, we will undoubtedly be putting some items in the book that fill a similar function for the Arcanist.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Dark Archive

Jason, thanks.

An Arcanist exploit I'd like to see is

Loligoth Power.

Liberty's Edge

cartmanbeck wrote:
I'm really liking where they have taken the class. Being able to pick up very simple versions of either wizard schools or sorcerer bloodlines gives you a lot of fun options for focusing on certain types of spells. I still don't understand the cries of "this makes the Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch OBSOLETE" because it is a completely different type of caster than all of those, and I don't see the overpowered-ness. I'll build a few Arcanists of different levels with the new rules and see what I come up with.

Spontaneous casters have a limited repetoire of spells available. They are one trick ponies and if they choose the wrong trick early on, it hinders them for levels. If an Arcanist chooses the wrong trick, it hinders him for a day.

The Sorcerer has the disadvantages of limited spells known, limited skills and 1 level delay in higher powered spells after 1st. Advantages include casting a useful spell often, having more spell slots per day and bloodline effects

The Wizard has the disadvantages of losing a slot if an inappropriate spell is prepped and limited weapon selection. Advantages include unrestricted access to all spells, school slot each level and every knowledge.

The Arcanist has the disadvantages of 1 level delay in higher powered spells after 1st and prepping one less spell than can be cast per day. Advantages include casting a useful spell often, unrestricted access to all spells, every knowledge and larger selection of weapons.

Given that the Arcanist has none of the disadvantages of a Wizard and most of the advantages, the Wizard is effectively obsolete. He still has some of the Sorcerer disadvantages and not all of the advantages, so a Sorcerer still has a place in some builds. Witches are all about the hexes, so they also have a place in some builds.

I think taking less Wizard and adding more Sorcerer fits the concept better overall.

Liberty's Edge

I am wondering about an Arcanus class as an adjunct to the Arcanist. A hybrid of Magus and Sorcerer. Same, or similar, Exploits, spell prepping, etc. but with the Magus spell progession and availability.

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