Profession (Murderhobo)


Rules Questions

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Jiggy wrote:
The Beard wrote:
It is indeed a reportable offense, even if only a minor one. GMs aren't supposed to prevent people from utilizing PFS legal options, are they? It isn't about the type of offense so much as the fact that there's a GM willingly breaking rules to uphold their own view.
So I guess you'd report Nefreet for disallowing the roll, but be fine with me perma-banning your now-evil PC after you proceed with what I warned you was a long string of unquestionably evil actions?

Well, on the other hand its probably not a good thing to have GMs claim that a player isn't taking things seriously and trying to take things out on them indirectly, which is what bothers me most. Especially if its because they don't share the same humor. The local coordinator might not be so happy to hear it either, because that chases away business.

You all came to be friendly and have fun. Fun policing is not your job.

Sczarni

The Beard wrote:
.. You apparently haven't played many Sczarni characters if you think they don't send you to do some pretty bad things to people at times. Well, no matter. It's obvious based on your passive aggressive response that you have no intention of providing any legitimate reasoning behind your apparent dislike of someone's profession being the harming of others. This is unfortunate, as I had been rather curious.

Hey boss, where do you want this tongue?

Oooo look its still all wriggly! Coooool

Dark Archive

Nefreet wrote:
The Beard wrote:
GMs aren't supposed to prevent people from utilizing PFS legal options, are they?

And where, pray tell, do you see "Profession (Murderhobo)" as a legal option?

Please. I'll wait all day long to hear this one.

I didn't say it necessarily is. I said IF it is. That seems to be the operative term here that people are choosing to ignore. I've seen nothing to indicate it wouldn't be a legal option, but it would sure be a silly one.


Nefreet wrote:
The Beard wrote:
GMs aren't supposed to prevent people from utilizing PFS legal options, are they?

And where, pray tell, do you see "Profession (Murderhobo)" as a legal option?

Please. I'll wait all day long to hear this one.

Where do you see a list of legal ones?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The Beard wrote:
Okay, so how exactly is having a dayjob that involves causing bodily harm to others an evil act? Have you SEEN what Pathfinders do while out on missions? The Society is not good aligned by any stretch of the word. It is NEUTRAL. You can hurt people without being evil, just like you can refrain from helping a person in need and continue being good aligned.

There's a difference between, say, Profession (soldier) and Profession (murderer).

No one's saying that violence is inherently evil. But "murder" involves killing someone who didn't deserve/require it, mostly because you wanted to. (Or because you're making a Day Job of it, because someone paid you to.)

If you perform a Profession (soldier) Day Job check, I'm going to assume any violence performed was at least somewhat justified. If you call it Profession (murder), you have announced a whole different type of intent. At that point, you have effectively declared it to be knowingly evil.

If you can't tell the difference between murder and other forms of violence, that's not my problem. If you want to report me for enforcing an alignment shift because you decided to do murder for hire, I'd consider it a commendation.

EDIT: Very significantly ninja'd.

Sczarni

MrSin wrote:
Where do you see a list of legal ones?

Under the Profession skill, for starters.


Nefreet wrote:
Under the Profession skill, for starters.

Those aren't a list of legal ones. Again, doesn't hurt anyone. However someone is overreacting and abusing their position.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
The Beard wrote:
Okay, so how exactly is having a dayjob that involves causing bodily harm to others an evil act? Have you SEEN what Pathfinders do while out on missions? The Society is not good aligned by any stretch of the word. It is NEUTRAL. You can hurt people without being evil, just like you can refrain from helping a person in need and continue being good aligned.

There's a difference between, say, Profession (soldier) and Profession (murderer).

No one's saying that violence is inherently evil. But "murder" involves killing someone who didn't deserve/require it, mostly because you wanted to. (Or because you're making a Day Job of it, because someone paid you to.)

If you perform a Profession (soldier) Day Job check, I'm going to assume any violence performed was at least somewhat justified. If you call it Profession (murder), you have announced a whole different type of intent. At that point, you have effectively declared it to be knowingly evil.

If you can't tell the difference between murder and other forms of violence, that's not my problem. If you want to report me for enforcing an alignment shift because you decided to do murder for hire, I'd consider it a commendation.

Again, this falls back to my previous post. It seems pretty obvious that the OP intended it as a humorous euphemism for something like Profession (Soldier), or at least that's how I took it. I believe the intent would be that the killing and/or violence is justified either at that moment on the battlefield, or by the legal authority sending them into battle. Otherwise I would agree, it would be willfully evil. That appears to be the major disconnect going on. See, most people would hear that and get a cheap laugh out of it. I'd wager only a minority would really take some odd form of offense to it, let alone give them an alignment infraction for finding a creative way to poke fun at all the murderhoboing we do in Society play. One could also look at it as being an enforcer for the Sczarni faction. Somebody fails to pay back their loan? You get sent to collect, or to "motivate" them if necessary.

Heck, you could be a professional assassin. Maybe your government gives you specific people to off for a bit of extra cash.

Sczarni

MrSin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Under the Profession skill, for starters.
Those aren't a list of legal ones. Again, doesn't hurt anyone. However someone is overreacting and abusing their position.

Our opinions obviously differ.

I believe someone was overreaching when they proposed "Murderhoboing" as a Profession.

Shadow Lodge

If you spent the 4pp to join the Assassin's Guild, even though it isn't a claimed benefit, you would have a stronger case for making day job roles as a professional murderhobo.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

The Beard wrote:
Again, this falls back to my previous post.

Which you ninja'd me with, FYI. :)

Quote:
It seems pretty obvious that the OP intended it as a humorous euphemism for something like Profession (Soldier), or at least that's how I took it. I believe the intent would be that the killing and/or violence is justified either at that moment on the battlefield, or by the legal authority sending them into battle. Otherwise I would agree, it would be willfully evil.

If a player said they had Profession (murder hobo), that exact phrase, I would question it. If what they really mean is soldier, fine. If they mean what murder hobo actually means (can't imagine how I would have thought that) then yeah, evil.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
The Beard wrote:
Again, this falls back to my previous post.

Which you ninja'd me with, FYI. :)

Quote:
It seems pretty obvious that the OP intended it as a humorous euphemism for something like Profession (Soldier), or at least that's how I took it. I believe the intent would be that the killing and/or violence is justified either at that moment on the battlefield, or by the legal authority sending them into battle. Otherwise I would agree, it would be willfully evil.
If a player said they had Profession (murder hobo), that exact phrase, I would question it. If what they really mean is soldier, fine. If they mean what murder hobo actually means (can't imagine how I would have thought that) then yeah, evil.

Whoops. >_> Sorry about that. My hands pressed send before my brain was done commenting on that one. But yeah, it's like I said, if their actual intent is that there character murders just to murder, I agree with you. I just don't see (Or at least I would hope not) a lot of PFS players thinking that's a wise decision, y'know? I'm not even going to lie. I have a character whose listed craft skill is "Beardweaving." It's a humorous play on the old dwarf beards are stronger than adamantine gag. He's actually a blacksmith.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

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I've seen a variety of odd professions chosen by PFS characters without anyone complaining. Just off the top of my head, I've seen...

Profession (mortician)
Profession (taxidermist)
Profession (pirate)
Profession (courtesan)
Profession (rat catcher)
Profession (sycophant) ("I'm the Kato Kaelin of Taldor")
Profession (mercenary)
Profession (fortune teller)
Profession (hunter)
Profession (snake charmer)
Profession (scribe)
Profession (brewer)
Profession (swineherd)

Admittedly, it might be hard to see how a swineherd could make 50 gp in a couple weeks' herding, but such elevated levels of pig-headedness must be rare and valued by bacon enthusiasts.

Dark Archive

So far I've seen:
Profession (Dogwalker)
Profession (Pet Groomer)
Profession (Hair Collector); ... this one is just odd
Profession (Lawn Gnome) < -- This one was mine
Profession (Catburglar) < -- Non-PFS on this one, a catfolk. Puns... x.x
Profession (Professional Wrestler)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Welp, I've stopped caring about this topic now that the revised ACG playtest document is live. Catch you all on the flip side! Wheeeee!


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The Beard wrote:

So far I've seen:

Profession (Dogwalker)
Profession (Pet Groomer)
Profession (Hair Collector); ... this one is just odd
Profession (Lawn Gnome) < -- This one was mine
Profession (Catburglar) < -- Non-PFS on this one, a catfolk. Puns... x.x
Profession (Professional Wrestler)

How well does being a lawn gnome pay?

I've seen bouncer and basketweaver. I think the weirdest one I've seen is soapmaker with craft soap.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I think this might be my best thread yet.

Liberty's Edge

I play a Half-Orc Witch with Profession (Executioner). No GM has ever had any issue with it. I suppose it is legal murder, but so is Murderhoboing in the name of the king.

As far as Profession (Murderhobo) goes, I would be totally fine with it at my tables. I see Murderhobo as a term for adventurer. A Profession(Murderhobo) character basically does some adventuring on the side in addition to his official PFS quests. I see no harm in it if a player chooses to slightly nerf his character to make a joke (nerfed because there aren't going to be too many situtaions outside of Day Job checks where this profession is going to come into play). Personally, I think it is a pretty funny, but my version of Pathfinder is never that serious.

Liberty's Edge

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MrSin wrote:
I've seen bouncer and basketweaver. I think the weirdest one I've seen is soapmaker with craft soap.

If this character's name was Etsy, then, in my opinion, they win Pathfinder Society.

Sczarni

Here's the list of "most common Profession skills" from the CRB:

Architect
Baker
Barrister
Brewer
Butcher
Clerk
Cook
Courtesan
Driver
Engineer
Farmer
Fisherman
Gambler
Gardener
Herbalist
Innkeeper
Librarian
Merchant
Midwife
Miller
Miner
Porter
Sailor
Scribe
Shepherd
Stablemaster
Soldier
Tanner
Trapper
Woodcutter


Nefreet wrote:
Here's the list of "most common Profession skills" from the CRB:

Point?


I've got a PFS character with Profession (Bounty Hunter).

If the contract doesn't specify that the bounty has to be alive...


The Sweater Golem wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I've seen bouncer and basketweaver. I think the weirdest one I've seen is soapmaker with craft soap.
If this character's name was Etsy, then, in my opinion, they win Pathfinder Society.

If their name was was Tylar Durrdan, then their first rule is that they don't talk about winning Pathfinder Society.

Their second rule is that
They.
Do not.
Talk.
About winning Pathfinder Society.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Morphling wrote:
I think this might be my best thread yet.

If that's true, then Mikaze need not fear any competition on your part.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet,

No where in the CRB or PFS legal rules does it state that the list is limited, and excludes others that I am aware.

It does not appear you have much support on this one.
But keep fighting!

Sczarni

MrSin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Here's the list of "most common Profession skills" from the CRB:
Point?

You said there was not a list of legal Profession examples in the CRB. I have supplied you with one.

@Corbin: I never said the list was limited to just those examples. What I said was that if a player came to me, as a PFS GM, and wanted to make a Profession (Murderhobo) check as their Day Job, I would, in whatever mood I happen to be in at the time, kindly deny them such an opportunity (or report it as an Alignment Infraction, if they really insisted).

Sczarni

I honestly do not understand the people coming to defense of this idea. Seriously, what is your motivation?

If there is something I am missing as to your intentions, please elaborate them to me.


Nefreet wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Here's the list of "most common Profession skills" from the CRB:
Point?
You said there was not a list of legal Profession examples in the CRB. I have supplied you with one.

A list of legal ones infers everything else is illegal though. Guess those basketweavers are a bunch of jerks who don't take the game seriously. Better stop letting them roll dayjob checks before they ruin everyones fun.

Sczarni

MrSin wrote:
A list of legal ones infers everything else is illegal though.

As I've said before, we're obviously on different pages, here. I infer no such nonsense.


Nefreet wrote:
MrSin wrote:
A list of legal ones infers everything else is illegal though.
As I've said before, we're obviously on different pages, here. I infer no such nonsense.

Not a list of legal ones. Just a list of common ones you found. There is no list of "These are legal". We could make them the only legal list probably, but then your just killing everyone else's fun even though its not hampering your own in any way.

Sczarni

I guarantee you, with 99.9% certainty, that those examples are legal in PFS.

But now we're just arguing semantics. Did you have a point to defending Profession (Murderhobo), or were you just exercising your debate skills?

Shadow Lodge

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At most of the tables I've played at it probably wouldn't be considered legal unless you spent the 2 prestige for Eagle Knight.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
@Corbin: I never said the list was limited to just those examples. What I said was that if a player came to me, as a PFS GM, and wanted to make a Profession (Murderhobo) check as their Day Job, I would, in whatever mood I happen to be in at the time, kindly deny them such an opportunity (or report it as an Alignment Infraction, if they really insisted).

I have no problem with a GM making a judgment call.

If you are going to make this kind of a ruling on Day Job checks then that makes me wonder what style of GM you are overall. You already used the word "Jerk" previously. It leads me to think that you are very heavy-handed.
If the event organizer supports your type of heavy-handed style at the tables, I wonder how pleased the players that come to the event are about that...

Add on top of that that most people on this thread feel Murderhobo is legit or at least don't have a glaring problem with it enough to deny them a roll.
I don't think that PFS players "Role Play" or "Perform Speech Acts" on Day Job checks for the most part.
So as long as the game isn't stalled with distractions over Murderhobo-ing, seems like there should not be a fuss.


I have to admit I'd allow it in a PFS game, simply because there's no support for playstyle restrictions in those and someone approaching it as a parody-style game isn't really something you can disallow. By participating in PFS you're implicitly agreeing that pretty much any playstyle that someone brings to the table is valid, and if you're not willing to have fun regardless it's probably a bad idea to participate.

In a home game, it'd totally be down to the feel we'd previously agreed upon. If we were going ultra-serious gritty narrative fantasy I'd disallow it, but it fits into a more loosely-defined humor-orientated game.


Murderhobo I would say I kill evil things to raise funds for homes for the homeless people.

What you call internet slang someone else can read it as something completely else.

Being a bully and saying "Hey! how you describe how you earn money on your day job is not how i would define it so I will not allow it!"

Is a bully action. I would even go as far to argue it is the breaking the jerk rule.

We play this game for fun and I am all about a fair honest rule oriented game. But people making a joke about a day job rule to raise the levity is not a reason to LOOK for a reason to take action against someone.

If you are an assassin and you assassinate evil creatures is that an evil action?

Give someone a chance to describe it before you apply a ruling.

Everyone is coming for a good time, why make someones else worse over something trivial?

Shadow Lodge

You're supposed to be able to explain it in character, and you'd likely never find any other use for it like you would with other profession skills (for PFS, I think only the ones listed in the core rulebook are ever used).

You're allowed to choose whatever you like in the name of creativity using whatever reasoning you like, so I'd still allow you a day job roll, but I'd still get to think you're a nutter. :)

Sczarni

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Corbin Dallas wrote:
If you are going to make this kind of a ruling on Day Job checks then that makes me wonder what style of GM you are overall.

I'm the type of GM that would not allow someone to roll a Profession (Murderhobo) check for their Day Job. That is all you can infer from this conversation.

Corbin Dallas wrote:
You already used the word "Jerk" previously.

In the 9th post of this thread. It was my humorous response to MrSin's comment just before it. I'm sorry my sense of humor doesn't relate to you. I don't make inferences about your GM style because of it.

Corbin Dallas wrote:
It leads me to think that you are very heavy-handed.

Only when it comes to personal accusations.

Corbin Dallas wrote:
If the event organizer supports your type of heavy-handed style at the tables, I wonder how pleased the players that come to the event are about that...

We have a large and thriving community in our area, so it must be working for us.

Corbin Dallas wrote:
Add on top of that that most people on this thread feel Murderhobo is legit or at least don't have a glaring problem with it enough to deny them a roll.

I just happen to take this more personally, I suppose. And I feel that's within my right as a GM.

Corbin Dallas wrote:
I don't think that PFS players "Role Play" or "Perform Speech Acts" on Day Job checks for the most part. So as long as the game isn't stalled with distractions over Murderhobo-ing, seems like there should not be a fuss.

When we're not in a hurry to rush out the door because of closing times, I generally like to ask people what their Day Jobs are, why they chose that, and come up with a quick result when they roll their die that equates to their level of success.

One player I see often has a Treesinger Druid, and makes Profession (Farmer) Day Job checks. He's always painting up a new figurine to use during games, and he names his plant companions after different species of tree. His Day Job is an extension of his character.

My Sczarni Rogue has two Business vanities, one which he operates as a "Front", and maxed out ranks in Profession (Merchant). I detailed up business cards to pass out during games, and wrote a short pamphlet on creature subtypes that I "sell" from one of my shops.

I am somewhat saddened when I encounter a character that doesn't have a Day Job. Even more so if their reason is because they don't think a small amount of gold is worth the skill points. Understandable if you're an unintelligent Fighter with 1 skill point per level, but I feel that Day Jobs add backstory and depth to a character, whether they went all out and bought a vanity with PP, or just put 1 point into Profession (Sailor).

If disallowing someone to make Profession (Murderhobo) checks is your biggest grievance with me, that's totally fine. But don't extrapolate more about my character or persona than that. I'm still uncertain why you, or anyone else, would defend such a practice, but I won't infer anything about you personally for doing so.


Avatar-1 wrote:
You're allowed to choose whatever you like in the name of creativity using whatever reasoning you like, so I'd still allow you a day job roll, but I'd still get to think you're a nutter. :)

Great answer! Even the nutter part.


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Nearly every Pathfinder character is a 'murderhobo'.

The term started because the common adventurer type spends most of his days wandering from place to place and slaughtering various creatures for money. They might have other motivations for throwing themselves into the front lines of combats but on the whole that's irrelevant.

I see no semantic difference between someone saying that they're a professional mercenary adventurer and saying that they're a 'murderhobo'. Both of them to one extent or another take money for committing killings, or at least for engaging in actions that most likely will result in killings.


Nefreet wrote:

As a PFS GM I would not allow you to make Profession (Murderhobo) checks as a Day Job, and I would not allow you any related knowledge checks.

Murderhobo-ing is not a thing. It's Internet slang, and does not exist in the world of Golarion (or IRL, as a profession, at least).

Underwater Basket Weaver I would allow. This is a thing (I've even done it before IRL myself).

Not everything in PFS is RAW. GMs still have some purview.

I'm very very curious about the mentality here that would forbid Profession: Murderhobo, on the basis that it's humorous contemporary slang, but permit Underwater Basket Weaver, which is also humorous contemporary slang.

As to the assertion that it does not exist in the world of Golarion ... are you sure? And is that your call to make?

Hypothetical: Would you allow just Profession: Hobo?

Scarab Sages

Truly it comes down to one thing, is the GM offended. If he is you may not get your day job roll, if not you will. That simple.

I can not find anything specifically banning made-up professions, alternatively if some one came to my table with a profession of "Serial Killer" I would not allow their roll, being a serial killer is evil (whether LE, say the Dexter type, or CE, say the Manson type, or even an NE, sorry no example atm). The term Murder-Hobo (especially as a profession) can be taken offensively for many playing RPGs (another topic all together) and you should expect the reaction you are getting here, some vitriol, some comedy, some indifference. Same as if I were to use a profession of Serial Killer, albeit to a lesser degree (I assume) and hopefully less comedy. I don't think PFS should be a vehicle to test the limits of what is offensive and what is not. If players wish to do so, them make a private game let your offensiveness run wild!

Another example might be Profession: Computer Programmer. No evil side to that (some one will post about evil programmers, just wait...), but it will offend many players/GMs, for numerous reasons....
(although an Abacus Programmer may be a bit more comical, but I'm sure it would offend many of them same people who would feel slighted by Computer Programmer, they just might have a laugh first)

Just because its comical to some, does not make it not offensive to others. I sincerely doubt you'll find a consensus to allow some one to be offensive by citing the PFS rules or lack of PFS rules.


Relixander wrote:
Truly it comes down to one thing, is the GM offended. If he is you may not get your day job roll, if not you will. That simple.

I am highly offended at bartenders for serving alcohol and courtesans for not being appropriate for a younger age audience. Obviously these people are trouble makers and don't deserve a day job roll.

Not a big fan of that ideal.


Xaratherus wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
I demand lyrics for "Murderhobo's Paradise".
** spoiler omitted **

Frickin Awesome!


Just to put things into perspective…

What is being discussed is a person who's "job" it is to be a homeless vagrant who runs around killing things and taking their stuff, making a "downtime skill check" to represent using off time to be a homeless vagrant running around killing things and taking their stuff.

I think we've just made a Pathfinder Klein Bottle.

Liberty's Edge

fretgod99 wrote:

I've got a PFS character with Profession (Bounty Hunter).

If the contract doesn't specify that the bounty has to be alive...

Does your character have a long scraggly blond mullet and end every sentence with "brah!"?

Grand Lodge

So, no Profession(Jerk)?


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Jiggy wrote:
I demand lyrics for "Murderhobo's Paradise".

As I start the scenario that's different but same

All the bleh stands out, and it all seems kinda lame
But it's just perfect when you're rolling twenty
And the RP's just the right difficulty

Started in the casino, now I'm killin' drows
The swashbuckler's busy,
starin' down the redhead's blouse (fool)
Feels like we've been underground so long
Even the Mwangi oracle's tan lines gone

I've been rolling real good dice
In my Murderhobo's paradise
Crit endboss once or twice
It's a Murderhobo's paradise

PFS GM dissin' on my character sheet
Turn my Stern Gaze on him, and I Job Roll... 20! Sweet!
I really don' care, he thinks my Profession smells
"Murderhobo", it says. Check my region: "Nine Hells"

Scarab Sages

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MrSin wrote:
Relixander wrote:
Truly it comes down to one thing, is the GM offended. If he is you may not get your day job roll, if not you will. That simple.

I am highly offended at bartenders for serving alcohol and courtesans for not being appropriate for a younger age audience. Obviously these people are trouble makers and don't deserve a day job roll.

Not a big fan of that ideal.

The problem being of course that courtesans is already listed as an allowable profession. A bartender is not specifically listed, so sure a GM has the ability to disallow it (I would not), just like the ability to disallow Serial Killer, Murder-Hob, Computer (or Abacus) Programmer none of which are listed. A GM could easily reject any of those unlisted professions, based on them being offensive, not fitting the campaign, not fitting the setting, take your choice. If the setting did not allow alcohol (the Pathfinder setting does not make murder legal), then I would deny the roll as a bartender as well. Again the rules are *not* there to defend jerkiness, regardless of interpretation, so hard line of what offends and what does not could never be drawn it is subjective.

Murder is by definition *illegal* killing (in most cases the killing done in adventures are "monsters" which typically have no laws against being killed, evil doers that have been targeted by authorities, or other sanctioning by higher powers), so although the moniker is funny, and in an obtuse and misleading way descriptive of an adventurers life, it misrepresents nearly any campaign, setting, or adventure that does not play from an evil point of view (and actually misrepresents many of them as well). I would say that profession would be offensive to every Pathfinder (and most adventurers) in Golarion, and any player that actually role plays within the setting in the "real" world. However, since it is subjective a GM can completely disagree and allow it.

In addition a GM could make a valid argument that since murder is illegal, the character would then go to jail and face murder charges after rolling the day job check. I would additionally point out that the Society, would most likely, not only side with the authorities, but use their resources to make sure the character faced charges and punishment for the murders committed.

For specifics
Profession: Bounty Hunter - *legally* pursues and possibly kill fugitives, and return the subject or poof of death fugitives of the law... (there are illegal forms of this profession and if a player were to choose Murderous Bounty Hunter or Illegal Bounty Hunter, I would deny the roll as well).

Profession: Jerk - only if referring to a style of cooking ;) (maybe, how does the money making work for being a Jerk? movie/play royalties? insulting people for tips? or did you really mean Profession: Comedian ;p


My problem with "profession: murder hobo" is more about "hobo" than "murder." I know that there are people who make a profession out of begging or otherwise doing "hobo"" activities, but I struggle with the entire concept of a profession that is essentially the condition of not pursuing a profession....

I dunno if I'd allow it in PFS play or not. I'd probably bounce it off other PFS GMs for advice.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, no Profession(Jerk)?

Profession is trained only. Jerk should be a Perform skill.

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