nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
its really difficult to offer specific advice (since you didn't give any campaign specifics- like point buy, allowable sources, or starting level)...
that said, you're party is obviously sorely lacking casting ability. have you thought at all about a mystic theurge? an angelkin, musetouched, or emberkin aasimar sorcerer 2 can take a 1 level dip in wood oracle (picking up the Bend the Grain revelation) and start taking theurge levels at 4th! you only lose one arcane caster level and in exchange gain 11 divine caster levels (by the time you hit MT10), that way you'll have more spells/day (all Cha based), and be twice as likely to have the spell you need in any situation (plus you can use just about any wand ever without a check).
edit: you could also go oracle 2/sorc 1 instead but your OP seemed to favor arcane.
Jake the Brawler |
You're missing a "tank", divine caster and arcane caster.
A cleric or druid could fill the first two roles, and a bard the last two, but you're going to have a hole no matter what. Note that both clerics and bards can cast Cure Light Wounds, extremely useful for out-of-combat healing and near-required if you don't have a cleric. Of course a ranger can operate a wand of Cure Light Wounds, if they didn't take a non-casting archetype.
MoFiddy |
its really difficult to offer specific advice (since you didn't give any campaign specifics- like point buy, allowable sources, or starting level)...
that said, you're party is obviously sorely lacking casting ability. have you thought at all about a mystic theurge? an angelkin, musetouched, or emberkin aasimar sorcerer 2 can take a 1 level dip in wood oracle (picking up the Bend the Grain revelation) and start taking theurge levels at 4th! you only lose one arcane caster level and in exchange gain 11 divine caster levels (by the time you hit MT10), that way you'll have more spells/day (all Cha based), and be twice as likely to have the spell you need in any situation (plus you can use just about any wand ever without a check).
20 point buy
1st levelAny Paizo resource
I'm intrigued by the aasimar mystic theurge...
ChainsawSam |
Evangelist Cleric.
He can support you with bard song and possibly summons.
This is probably the "best" answer, but I shed a tear for anyone trying to do it. Lots of options, but the party has lots of needs. Action economy is going to be a real chore.
Mystic theurge
It's a trap. It's always a trap.
Peter Stewart |
What level is the party? If low level I suggest Elven (Ancient Lorekeeper Archtype) Oracle. Divine spells, plenty of healing, and access to the most applicable arcane spell of each level.
If high level (9+) I suggest Human (False Priest Archtype) sorcerer is a pretty sick utility caster. The ability to use spell slots to power divine scrolls, wands, and staves is pretty good - while the human favorite class bonus means they can pack in tons of arcane spells at any one time.
Both are probably among the most powerful 'practical' casters in the game.
Witch is a nice third alternative, but they struggle a bit as a healer early and lack the best utility spells from both lists. They tend to lean heavily on their hexes, which isn't really what you need here.
Kyoni |
I guess this is why I strongly dislike gunslingers... they don't bring anything to a table except damage.
So If I were you, I'd consider the gunslinger like a blasting wizard and be a support-oriented spellcaster...:
- bard (magician archetype?)
- cleric
- druid
- inquisitor
- oracle
- witch
personally I'd take the witch, but that's a matter of taste
MoFiddy |
Here are the suggestions so far:
Bard
Wizard
Cleric
Evangelist Cleric
Mystic Theurge (early entry as an aasimar)
Oracle (Elf: Ancient Lorekeeper)
Witch
Summoner
Zen Archer Monk
Arcanist
I think I like the Evangelist Cleric and Ancient Lorekeeper Elf best to this point.
Thanks for the suggestions. Any other ideas to consider?
williamoak |
Inquisitor can be quite a good mix of tank/buffer if you want to be. Evangelist cleric is nice to be a buffer/healer. Another alternative is the "arcane healer" bard:
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Arcane%20He aler
You get a bit of chanelling, priority on performance. Goes well with a muse-touched aasimar. I like it anyway.
Fake Healer |
I second the Mystic Theurge if you can play it right. People that can't play it right will always tell you how that Prestige class sucks and isn't worth it....it is. you will have a ton of spells and good powers and EVERY magic item is usable to you. You are able to blast, buff, heal, de-buff, summon, make undead if alignment is right, battlefield control...whatever role the party seems to favor you can jump in and be great. Hoard all magic items! You want a zillion scrolls, a hundred wands, etc....
Mysterious Stranger |
While I love the Zen Archer you have a lot of ranged combat in this group so that would not be adding anything not already being covered.
The Mystic Theurge is only good at high level and they lose higher level spells which means that covering the spell caster role is even tougher.
The Ancient Lorekeeper can learn Wizard spells but learns them at one level higher and they replace the spells of his mystery. This means that at 6th level you can learn a single 1st level wizard spell as a 2nd level oracle spell. You also have to be an elf which does not get a bonus to CHA so you casting stat is going to be lower. As the only real caster in the group this is not a good idea.
The Evangelist Cleric replaces the spells you can spontaneously cast so you need to memorize any cure spells. The lists that it gives are good in a social environment, but not as useful for an adventure as being able to never memorize a cure spell. It also weakens channel energy so you do not even get it till 3rd level. This means the Evangelist Cleric is a horrible healer. Counter spell means that to use it you need to pump ranks into a perform skill. As a cleric you don’t have a lot of skills so this is going to also hurt.
The bard may or not be a good choice it is going to depend on what kind of rogue you have. If he goes for the face role then there is going to be a lot of overlap and unless this is a social heavy campaign that is probably not the best choice. If you do go bard max out UMD .
As mentioned an inquisitor could be a good fit. The big advantage of the inquisitor is they can cover almost any role. Pick a deity with a good melee weapon, or pick a race that gets a good weapon for free.
I would recommend playing a spontaneous caster for greater flexibility. To alleviate the low number of spells know choose a race that gets extra spells as a favored class. Also supplement your spells with items. Wands, scrolls, staffs are all things you should be looking for. If you can pick up a Mnemonic Vestment as soon as you can, so you can reuse scrolls.
Talk to the gunslinger about taking a trait to get stealth as a class skill and play something that has stealth as a class skill. If the whole party is able to use stealth you can avoid a lot of encounters. Remember you get XP for overcoming obstacles not just beating up things.
MyTThor |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're missing a "tank", divine caster and arcane caster.
A cleric or druid could fill the first two roles, and a bard the last two, but you're going to have a hole no matter what. Note that both clerics and bards can cast Cure Light Wounds, extremely useful for out-of-combat healing and near-required if you don't have a cleric. Of course a ranger can operate a wand of Cure Light Wounds, if they didn't take a non-casting archetype.
Scarred witch doctor/hedge witch covers all 3 reasonably.
Renegadeshepherd |
Summoner has a legit vote in this case. The eidolon can be ur tank and u take on the caster role AND ur the mouth. As such I filled 3 roles that u lacked before, unless the rogue wanted to be the mouth , YUCK!!
Master summoner also has a vote in this but I would actually take the base summoner since no one in ur party could take advantage of the numbers with big communal buffs.
Master of the Dark Triad |
TarkXT wrote:Evangelist Cleric.
He can support you with bard song and possibly summons.
This is probably the "best" answer, but I shed a tear for anyone trying to do it. Lots of options, but the party has lots of needs. Action economy is going to be a real chore.
Quote:Mystic theurgeIt's a trap. It's always a trap.
But it's always soooo fun and cool.
MoFiddy |
I second the Mystic Theurge if you can play it right. People that can't play it right will always tell you how that Prestige class sucks and isn't worth it....it is. you will have a ton of spells and good powers and EVERY magic item is usable to you. You are able to blast, buff, heal, de-buff, summon, make undead if alignment is right, battlefield control...whatever role the party seems to favor you can jump in and be great. Hoard all magic items! You want a zillion scrolls, a hundred wands, etc....
I like playing utility characters. I might start as sorcerer and see where it goes. The other party members are my real-life kids, so buffing their characters and making them shine would be fun too. :)
MoFiddy |
While I love the Zen Archer you have a lot of ranged combat in this group so that would not be adding anything not already being covered.
The Mystic Theurge is only good at high level and they lose higher level spells which means that covering the spell caster role is even tougher.
The Ancient Lorekeeper can learn Wizard spells but learns them at one level higher and they replace the spells of his mystery. This means that at 6th level you can learn a single 1st level wizard spell as a 2nd level oracle spell. You also have to be an elf which does not get a bonus to CHA so you casting stat is going to be lower. As the only real caster in the group this is not a good idea.
The Evangelist Cleric replaces the spells you can spontaneously cast so you need to memorize any cure spells. The lists that it gives are good in a social environment, but not as useful for an adventure as being able to never memorize a cure spell. It also weakens channel energy so you do not even get it till 3rd level. This means the Evangelist Cleric is a horrible healer. Counter spell means that to use it you need to pump ranks into a perform skill. As a cleric you don’t have a lot of skills so this is going to also hurt.
The bard may or not be a good choice it is going to depend on what kind of rogue you have. If he goes for the face role then there is going to be a lot of overlap and unless this is a social heavy campaign that is probably not the best choice. If you do go bard max out UMD .
As mentioned an inquisitor could be a good fit. The big advantage of the inquisitor is they can cover almost any role. Pick a deity with a good melee weapon, or pick a race that gets a good weapon for free.
I would recommend playing a spontaneous caster for greater flexibility. To alleviate the low number of spells know choose a race that gets extra spells as a favored class. Also supplement your spells with items. Wands, scrolls, staffs are all things you should be looking for. If you can pick up a Mnemonic...
Interesting analysis. The Mnemonic Vestment is a very cool magic item. I like that it doesn't take up the shoulder slot.
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's a trap. It's always a trap.
that might be defensible if the only valid way to build a character were to maximize for a single role... a sorcerer 2/oracle 1/mystic theurge 10 gives up 1 level of sorcerer spells and gains 11 levels of oracle spells- at 13th level he casts a sorc 12/oracle 11! yes, that puts him 1 spell level behind a wizard (though not a straight sorcerer) but in exchange he gains a ton of extra spells and increased utility/options. i'm not trying to say its always the best option (it clearly isn't), but in a 4 person party with no other caster its definitely a solid option. (@op- a musetouched aasimar could start with Str 10; Dex 14; Con 13; Int 10; Wis 12; Cha 19; or you could dump something for 20 Cha).
summoner is always a strong option too... you lose cures and status removals but have really good action economy, a pet that can tank and deal big melee damage, and you can invest a couple of feats to get a familiar that can (with UMD and wands/scrolls) be your heal-bot.
evangelist cleric is also good. it doesn't have the utility of a mystic theurge, but they make fantastic insta-armies: take sacred summons and augment summoning to quickly summon a 1d3 or 1d4+1 augmented outsiders then use performance and channeling to benefit your party-mates and all your summoned creatures.
ancient lorekeeper looks fun, though i havent actually played one... it seems a lot like a mystic theurge who keeps the one extra level of spells and gets way less spells per day. if you want to play one, i'd suggest making a half-elf instead of full-elf (that way you can put your racial bonus in Cha, you have access to the paragon surge spell, and you get a bonus skill focus you can use to qualify for eldritch heritage[arcane]).
Reynard_the_fox |
Mystic Theurge is dandy at higher levels, particularly if you lack both divine and arcane spellcasting. The problem is that there's going to be quite a while in the mid-levels where you're going to be preeetty useless. (Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 is not the most powerful 7th level character around.)
If I were you, I would go either Druid, animal-domain Cleric, or summoner Wizard. You definitely need a full caster, preferably one with a big spell list; and you also are going to want another front-line fighter, a role which an Animal Companion fills nicely. (Take Boon Companion for animal domain; see if the Ranger will take it too.)
I would definitely advocate a prepared caster. Being essentially the only caster in the party, you need to have access to any and all spells your group could need to progress. For Druids and Clerics, that's just a matter of praying for it; and if you spend a little GP on scribing spells, a Wizard can almost always have the right spell for the situation.
Considering your teammates are your kids, I think the Wizard would work out quite nicely. Battlefield control wizards (aka "god wizards") function via teamwork - enabling their companions to smack down enemies with maximum efficiency. You'll be able to dismantle enemy's magical defenses, buff your teammates (the Rogue will love Invisibility, I'm sure), and in general help them succeed. Taking Augment and Superior Summoning will help you fill in the gaps in your front line.
A Cleric can do much of the same; however, while most of their buffs tend to be straightforward, the Wizard can open up new tactical possibilities with spells like Enlarge Person and Burrow, and drastically manipulate the battlefield in ways the Cleric can't imitate. On the other hand, Clerics can hold their own in front-line combat, and get much better healing/restorative abilities, including Raise Dead. If you do go Cleric, I would suggest a melee-oriented one; Clerics don't generally have enough good offensive spells to warrant investing in high DCs over high Strength.
Overall, it comes down to you and your kids' playstyle. If you want something more straightforward and smite-y, the Cleric is your man. If you want to get a little tricky with it, go Wizard. Have fun!
nate lange RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
@reynard- a wiz 3/cl 3/MT 1 would be a pretty poor caster at 7th level... thankfully, spell-like abilities satisfy spellcasting requirements for feats and prestige classes, so many aasimars/tieflings (who get a racial 2nd level arcane SLA) can take one level of wood oracle and pick up Bend the Grain (a revelation that grants a 2nd level divine SLA) or one level of cleric with the trickery domain (also grants 2nd lvl divine SLA) and then only need to meet the skill rank requirements for MT. so, at 7th level its actually wiz 2/cl 1/MT 4 (or sorc 2/oracle 1/MT 4, if you want the stat synergy), which is far more effective.