Playtest: Arcanist Level 11


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After trying out the solo Arcanist at Level 16 I decided to give a mid level version a go. I have decided to run him through the King of the Storval Stairs adventure. This is a 7-11 PFS adventure which is widely regarded as being a pretty heavy combat grind fest. He starts out aware that Giants are involved so he prioritises some potent Will save spells and avoids many Fortitude saves. This does make his two Transmutation Focus feats a bit of a waste sadly.

The level 11 version is:

Arcanist:
Marcus D'Avore, Extraordinary Arcanist!
Male Human (Varisian) Arcanist 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 120 ft.; Perception +18

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Defense
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 90 (11d6+44)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +13

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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)

Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +18):

5th (4/day)—summon monster v, dominate person (DC 22)
4th (5/day)—greater invisibility, emergency force sphere, confusion (DC 21)
3rd (6/day)—tongues, dispel magic, suggestion (DC 20), slow (DC 22)
2nd (6/day)—resist energy, mirror image, glitterdust (DC 19), scorching ray, blindness/deafness (DC 19)
1st (6/day)—shield, magic missile, silent image (DC 18), protection from evil, charm person (DC 18)
0 (at will)—mage hand, open/close (DC 19), detect magic, detect poison, light, arcane mark, message, ghost sound (DC 17), prestidigitation (DC 17)

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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 25, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16

Feats: Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus (transmutation), Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Reach Spell, Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration

Traits: magical lineage (baleful polymorph), reactionary

Skills: Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +13, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +21, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (engineering) +11, Knowledge (geography) +11, Knowledge (history) +11, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +15, Knowledge (nobility) +11, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +21, Linguistics +11, Perception +18, Spellcraft +21, Stealth +13, Use Magic Device +2
Languages Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Osiriani, Ancient, Terran, Varisian

SQ: arcane reservoir (6 out of 33 max), arcanist exploits (dimensional slide [110'], greater metamagic knowledge, metamagic knowledge, metamixing, potent magic, spell tinkerer [±50% duration or suppress 1 rds]), consume spells

Gear: Ring of invisibility, Scroll of Touch of the Sea, Detect Secret Doors, Air Bubble, Disguise Self, Endure Elements, Mount, Expeditious Retreat, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Good, Reduce Person. Unseen Servant, Alter Self, Arcane Lock, Command Undead, Knock, See Invisibility, Magic Circle against Evil, Teleport), Wand of Infernal Healing, Belt of mighty constitution +2, Blessed book, Cloak of resistance +4, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack, Headband of vast intelligence +4 (Escape Artist, S, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork

Extended spells cast the previous day:

Mage Armour, Greater Darkvision, Misdirection (Tree Stump), False Life (16 temp HP), Protection from Arrows, Countless Eyes, Non Detection, Detect Scrying

Other buffs cast the previous day:

Overland Flight, Life Bubble.

When he sets off he swaps out Extend for Reach Spell. Each buff is Tinkered three times to increase their duration to 3 days/1.5 days respectively.

This costs a grand total of 20 points, easily dealt with by sacrificing a few spell slots on his off day.

Tonight we will see how he does against the 4 person version of the upper tier.


So, Marcus joins Venture Captain Heindmarch for the briefing. Society interests have suffered in the region of the Storval Stairs and they have lost contact with a supply caravan in the area. Rumours suggest that a tribe of Hill Giants have moved into the area and that one of them have announced himself as the King of Storval stairs. Harpies and Trolls are also rumoured to be in the area. A Greater Teleport scroll is provided and Marcus is dispatched to investigate.

He takes a day to make his various spell preparations. The caravan went missing over a week ago so another day isn't likely to make any difference. Buff spells in place he turns himself invisible and greater teleports to the caravan region (making the check to use the scroll).

Encounter 1:
Arriving some 30' away from the ruins of the caravan he finds himself far too close for comfort to a pair of hulking Hill Giants. He takes to the air and moves to a more comfortable distance, they have no prospect of noticing him with their perception skills. The barbarian has scent but only while raging.

Moving to 50' away from them he decides he needs more information. He gets a surprise round and casts a Potent Dominate Person (these now work on giants as a sub category of Humanoid) at the largest of the two giants (DC24 will, save +8) which fails its save with a 10. Becoming visible he commands his new minion to kill its junior to take his stuff. Being CE I decide such an action is definitely not so outside of its nature to allow a second save.

Initiative:
Marcus: 25
Barbarian: 17
Giant: 0

Round 1:

Marcus: Activates ring of invisibility and moves off to the side
Barbarian: Rages and attacks the normal giant, hitting twice for 72 damage.
Giant: Enrages it launches itself at its boss hitting one with a threat but no crit for 30 damage.

Round 2:

Marcus: Watches events play out.
Barbarian: Crushes his new enemies skull.

Descending to perch on his new minions shoulder Marcus casts Tongues so he can quiz his minion about what has been going on. He learns that the caravan guards attacked the toll master and that both groups were taken by the Harpies that roost somewhere nearby although he is not sure where. They took the caravan loot. The King is currently away making a sacrifice to the gods but should be back soon to deal with the Harpies. Musing on this he directs his new minion to carry him towards the Stairs. He pokes him a couple of times with his Wand to get him back to full health. Given the extreme shortness of the encounter I decide the Harpies have not noticed Marcus but will notice that one of the Giants has killed another. They will be more alert and watchful wondering why.

Available Resources:

Spell Slots: 6/6/5/5/3
Arcane Pool: 5

Encounter 2:
Marcus orders his new best friend giant to remain at the base of the stairs as he undertakes some aerial scouting. He spots the signs of the Harpies presence while still well away from the statue. I assume the Harpies leave one warbird outside on watch but she has no real prospect of seeing him (perception 8 versus 33 effective stealth). She has no stealth skill so will be spotted easily while still some distance away. I also decide that as the Harpies are alerted that something is up that they disperse into the ruins leaving the one scout behind to keep watch.

He leaves the scout where she is, oblivious to his presence and descends down to the main plaza. He puts the tortured figures out of his mind and moves into the main chamber to investigate the screaming human voice and the shouting giants. He finds five giants crowded into a stinking fetid room about to cook and eat a victim and decides he should stop it. They cannot detect him so he gets a surprise round.

Initiative:
Marcus 17
Barbarian 17 -74HP
Giants 10, 12, 16, 15

Surprise Round:
Marcus: Casts Potent Confusion. Given the size of the room and the area of the spell I decide he can catch the barbarian and giants 1 and 2. DC 23 versus will saves of 8 and 3. 7, 5, 2, all of them fail.

Round 1:
Marcus: Resumes invisibility and moves backwards and upwards out of sight and out of the way.
Barbarian: Babbles incoherently
G3 and 4: move out of the room looking for the little human, a perception of 6 means no chance
G2: Babbles
G1: Babbles

Round 2:
Marcus: Potent Dominate Person on G3, DC24 versus +3 will, fails with an 18, commands it to attack G4. Moves further away
Barbarian: stabs self for 15 damage
G3: Attacks G4, 1 hit for 23 damage
G4: Realises that the puny human must be using bad magic and charges him, eats the OA from G3 which misses with a 1, hits with a 12 for 23 damage
G2: Acts normally, heads outside to try and find out what the hell is going on. Sees puny wizard.
G1: Babbles

Round 3:
Marcus: Activates ring of invisibility, dimensionally slides away
Barbarian: Attacks nearest target, in this case G1! Rages and charges, hitting for 34 damage. They are now locked in a confusion attack loop.
G3: Attacks G4 hitting twice for 63 and taking him down.
G2: Attacks nearest target, in this case G3! Both miss
G1: Attacks the barbarian in a confusion loop. Hits twice for 59 damage.

Round 4:
Marcus: Observes, commands G3 to attack G2
Barbarian: Attacks G1 Only 1 hit for 34 damage
G3: Attacks G2 1 hit for 29 damage
G2: Attacks G3 1 hit for 24
G1: Attacks Barbarian but misses with both

Round 5:
Marcus: Muses on the power of enchantment spells
Barbarian: Attacks G1 crushing his skull
G3: Attacks G2, 1 hit for 32 damage, he is still up
G2: Attacks G3 with 1 hit for 25

Round 6: At this rate Confusion might run out of duration
Marcus: More pondering
Barbarian: Babbles, rage ends, becomes fatigued
G3: Attacks G2 but both miss
G2: Attacks G3, hitting twice and killing him.

Round 7:
Marcus: Mourns the loss of his minion
Barbarian: Attacks nearest, moves and hits G2 for 36 taking him out.

Round 8:
Marcus: Move away, cast Mirror Image gaining 7 images. He is well out of scent range.
Barbarian: Drools

Round 9:
Marcus: Potent Dominate Person on Barbarian. DC 24 means the 14 fails the save and he adds a second minion. He mentally calls his first minion up the stairs before healing himself with his wand and sacrificing a level 3 spell slot for some more points. Outside the Harpies begin to sing having moved into position.

Spell Slots: 6/5/4/4/1
Arcane Pool: 4


OK, on to part 2. The Giants have largely been dealt with but now the Harpies make their presence felt.

Encounter 3:

Marcus is immune to the Harpy Song due to his Clear Spindle Ioun Stone sitting in its Wayfinder. If he didn't have it you can bet a spell tinkered Protection from Evil would be up as soon as he headed towards the ruins. Sadly his new Minion has no such protection and even if he were to cast the spell on him that would prevent his continued Domination. He does command his first Minion to stay down the stairs to avoid the risk of losing him.

Fortunately the Barbarian saves with an 18. Lareecan having heard an enormous racket going on during the battle reasons there must be quite a force in the ruins. She drops Greater Invisibility on a second minion and sends them to replace the first but his +6 Will save is holding out against their DC17 song. She doesn't have any more Improved Invisibility spells so she drops normal Invisibility on a third and sends it in to scout what the hell is going on. As it is doing so Marcus is heading outside to do likewise. The scout cannot see him but he will notice someone invisible is around on a 2, modified for distance. He realises something is up and flies up high outside.

He can see the Queen but not the other two at the moment. Getting to medium range he casts See Invisibility from a scroll and now spots the other two. In any event their Improved Invisibility spells wont last long. The third Invisible bird will return from its scouting to report that 4 of the giants are dead, apparently they have killed each other.

Marcus puts up Greater Invisibility on himself. His Mirror Image is also still up. Again he gets a surprise round as he can see them and they cannot see him. He strikes while the Queen is close enough to two of her warbirds (1 and 5). He would like to catch all of them but doesn't want to let his Invisibility run out.

Initiative:

Bird 3 24
Marcus 24
Bird 5 23
Queen 22
Bird 1 18
Bird 2 17
Bird 4 12

Surprise Round:

Marcus: Nails three of them with a Potent Confusion (DC23). The Queen saves easily but Warbirds 1 and 5 both fail.

Round 1:

Bird 3: Can hear someone casting spells nearby but has no way of pin pointing it. Alerts her allies.

Marcus: Potent Blindness on their leader, DC 21 fortitude which she fails with a 6. Moves off to one side in case of retaliation

Bird 5: Attacks nearest target which in this situation is her Queen! One hit for 7 damage, this could take a while.

Queen: A blind archer spellcaster with no way of removing the blindness is a sad sad thing. She casts Invisibility defensively and takes to the air.

Bird 1: Stabs self for 7.

Bird 2: Unclear what is happening. Flies across and tries to disarm the bow from Bird 5. Opportunity attack misses as does disarm attempt.

Bird 4: Similarly unsure what is happening also tries to disarm the attacking bird but fails.

Round 2:

Bird 3: Flies over to find out what the hell is going on and to disarm the attacking bird. Another hopeless fail. This is written in to their tactics but they appear to be terrible at it. Does take 6 damage from a talon to the face OA

Marcus: He doesn't want to let the Queen get away so he launches some Scorching Rays at her and moves to match her direction. All three rays hit doing 47 damage. This alerts the non confused harpies but they still cannot see him due to Greater Invisibility

Bird 5: Attacks Bird 3, 1 hit for 4 damage, this may take a long time. Deadly Aim would speed things up.

Queen: Casts Mirror Image and continues to fly away, gets 4 images

Bird 1: Drools

Bird 2: Takes flight to help her queen but cannot do much as cannot see the attacker. She readies to attack the place from which the next spell originates.

Bird 4: Same as Bird 2

Round 3:

Bird 3: Follows track with 2 and 4, 3 Harpies are now ready to pincushion the invisible enemy attacking their leader

Marcus: Fire in the hold! Scorching Rays are unleashed The readied actions cannot interrupt the cast at the have to wait for it to be able to pinpoint the location. All three hit, 1 destroys an image, 2 hit her for 24 damage. Three readied attacks go off. All three would hit but total concealment means they miss

Bird 5: Attacks Bird 3 which attacked it last turn but misses with both attacks.

Queen: Realises her brood have come to her aid. Uses Silent Image to create a globe of darkness around her blocking line of sight and hoping to force Marcus to close.

Bird 1: Drools

Birds 2 and 4: Ready again

Round 4:

Bird 3: Readies

Marcus: Closes to interact with Illusion or he wont get a save. Passes save, launches scorching rays, no readied attacks as they cannot see him inside the illusion. 3 hits, one destroys her last image and she takes another 33 damage

Bird 5: Wasn't attacked last turn so rerolls. Gets to act normally and flies towards her Queen.

Queen: She would use her Heal scroll at this point but being blind puts the kibosh on that. Instead she ceases concentrating on Silent Image and hits him with Glitterdust. He is close enough now that she has a good enough idea which direction he is flying in to catch him in the area. He passes the save but is now alarmingly visible to the archers.

Bird 1: Drools

Bird 4: Fire!!!! Both attacks hit and are negated by Protection from Normal Arrows which absorbs 13 damage.

Bird 2: Fire!!! A crit and a hit for 24 and 7. 14 damage and another 21 damage absorbed.

Round 5:

Bird 3: Fire!!! A natural 1 means only 1 hit and 6 damage absorbed

Marcus: Places his faith in the strength of his protection from arrows spell and launches another Scorching Ray. 3 hits with no more images left does another 39 damage and her blackened corpse tumbles out of the sky. He spends an AP and Dimensionally Slides 110' away to the entrance to one of the buildings, he uses his remaining 25' of movement to move into total cover.

The encounter is effectively over at this point. He can continue to play cat and mouse with the Harpies sacrificing the odd spell slot to refill his pool, Sliding away and then moving out of line of sight until Glitterdust fades. At which point he resumes Invisibility and can pick them off at his leisure if he wants to. He certainly has no plans to try and fight a bunch of Harpy archers out in the open when he can be seen.

Instead he offers them a deal. They can take the body of their Queen and their stolen loot and head out of here. If they don't he will hunt them down one by one. They agree and the ruins are secured for now. No doubt they may return at a later date to seek vengeance.

Resources Available up to the end of Round 5:
Spell Slots: 6/0/4/2/1
Arcane Pool: 1

With the Ruins secured he calls up his other Giant servant, casts Tongues and sets one of them to keeping watch for the return of the King. He sets himself up in an abandoned building placing the second giant as a guard and gets some rest. The guard is given strict instruction to wake him at the first sign of Harpies. He also instructs the Giant to not resist a spell he will cast on him to protect him from the Harpies song. He deafens him with Blindness/Deafness promising to remove it later when he is sure the Harpy threat is gone for good. Given the context and that a number of giants have been slaughtered due to the Siren Song I don't give the Giant an extra save.

The module does call for the group to get a chance to rest, explore and set up defences before the final encounter so I give him that.

Sczarni

alot of assumptions made that I don't think any gm worth his salt would let fly. inparticular confused targets don't trigger AoO from allies, although they do attack them for that round, between their rounds they are "normal" technically.

your barbarian knows that attacking another creature is dangerous and will result in him getting hurt, so he's entitled to another save EVERY TIME.

you have a remarkable number of failed saves..... for enemies, and alot for you....

your character also seems to know perfectly well in advance what to have prepared.


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This isn't a playtest. I want to be 100% clear about that.

It is a single person running both sides of the encounter with full knowledge of the tactics utilized on both sides ahead of time, what the stats are on both sides, and what the most optimal options are. With that in mind I don't really have much to take away from it.

Seems like theorycraft.

Sczarni

it's shrodengers wizard all over again (and I know it's not a real playtest) I think it's someone with a personal agenda to make sure the Arcanist can't do any of the things it does currently =D

Hell, I've got a lvl 11 scenario I'd be more than willing to put him through from PFS.... see how well "solo" works for him.


lantzkev wrote:
inparticular confused targets don't trigger AoO from allies, although they do attack them for that round, between their rounds they are "normal" technically.

From the PRD:

"Note that a confused creature will not make attacks of opportunity aagainst anything that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked)."

To be fair you could remove all of the attacks of opportunity and all that changes is that one Harpy Warbird takes 6 less damage.

Quote:
your barbarian knows that attacking another creature is dangerous and will result in him getting hurt, so he's entitled to another save EVERY TIME.

Dominate Person says:

"Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out."

Hill Giants are brutish thuggish chaotic evil creatures. Hill Giant Barbarians are no strangers to violence. Attacking each other doesn't necessarily strike me as being so outside their nature as to allow another save. Even if it did as we will see their chances of success are low.

Quote:
you have a remarkable number of failed saves..... for enemies, and alot for you....

Nice way to call me a liar without actually coming out and saying it. Try at least to have a little bit of courage.

Also look at the actual numbers. Hill Giants have a Will Save of +3. The Barbarian has a save of +6 while not raging. Potent Confusion has a DC of 23 for him. Potent Dominate is 24. The normal Giants need a 20, the Barbarian needs an 17/18. The last Barbarian got lucky on its saves against the Harpy Song needing an 11 but even if it failed it would not be relevant as he did not actually participate in the Harpy fight.

The Warbirds have a Will Save of 7 so they need 16 to save against the Confusion. He only hit two of them and it did next to nothing. The Queen got unlucky on her save against the Blindness. Marcus has had to make one save so far, against Glitterdust but it is only a rather low DC18 against his best save. Unsurprisingly he passes.

Foolishly I completely forgot that he could have immediate action counterspelled the Glitterdust which would mean he wouldn't even have been seen by the Warbirds and they would have continued to make single attack readied actions.

Quote:
your character also seems to know perfectly well in advance what to have prepared.

The mission briefing tells you to expect Giants so preparing Enchantment spells seems like the sensible thing to do. Most of the rest of his spells are a mix of generically useful offensive, defensive and utility spells. Note that as yet he has not used a whole slew of different prepared spells. This is the big benefit of the Arcanist class. These decisions may well come back to bite him given the final battle is against a Cleric and Sorcerer.

Also it is worth noting that four of his feats (Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration) and his main trait (Magical Lineage) are basically doing nothing in this scenario at all. To suggest that he is tailored for it specifically is quite untrue.


lantzkev wrote:

it's shrodengers wizard all over again (and I know it's not a real playtest) I think it's someone with a personal agenda to make sure the Arcanist can't do any of the things it does currently =D

Hell, I've got a lvl 11 scenario I'd be more than willing to put him through from PFS.... see how well "solo" works for him.

It is the very opposite of Schredingers Wizard. That is based on the idea that a prepared caster will have every spell they know prepared at any time. Marcus has a set spell list which he has not varied at all in any of the encounters. He wont change the list for the final encounter so only has the resources available to him which he started with.

If you want to run something I am more than happy to give it a go although PbP games inevitably take longer.


Peter Stewart wrote:

This isn't a playtest. I want to be 100% clear about that.

It is a single person running both sides of the encounter with full knowledge of the tactics utilized on both sides ahead of time, what the stats are on both sides, and what the most optimal options are. With that in mind I don't really have much to take away from it.

Seems like theorycraft.

I want to be 100% clear that it is. It may not be the same as running it as a session with a group and a GM but to claim that is has no value is untrue. While I as the person running things may be aware of all options I am trying to run the encounters with each side making use of the information available to it.

You might not find much use in that but it seems others do so feel free to ignore the thread.


Confusion in general kicks the hell out of this scenario. I had an enchantment focused sorcerer that trivialized all the giant fights, and while I can't remember his level, I know he wasn't above 9 when he did it. I actually pulled a couple groans at the table the third time I cast it because everyone knew the combat was essentially a walk through. Confusion hits, we hang back, giants maul each other, then my party went in to play janitors.

While I appreciate the time and effort you put into the playtest and explaining what you have done, I think overall it speaks to the power of confusion over this scenario more than anything.


So, onwards to our last encounter. Before heading to bed Marcus burns a couple of extra spell slots and Tinkers his buffs to make sure they will last another day or so. He gets some kip and in the morning sets out to explore the surrounding area. He casts Tongues and sets his two new friends to taking watch at the top of the stairs to warn him if their King returns.

Sadly the surrounding area is poorly described in the scenario and doesn't really have anything interesting to poke about in. It also suggests that PC's may want to prepare the area although it isn't clear what it is thinking about. I suppose I could switch up to Lesser Planar Binding some stuff or stone shaping/wall of stoning up the area but that all seems quite unnecessary. Instead as night falls his minions alert him to the return of their comrades. Flying up to well above the stairs he spots their approach. The King and his Sorceress don't pre buff as at the moment there is no sign of danger.

Encounter 4:
As per the scenario the two normal Hill Giants approach first with the King hanging back to make sure all is well. With their Sense Motive skill of 0 neither notices that anything is up with their comrades. (I am assuming take 10 for skill rolls where it is possible). Formoch and Atga move up to the group. As they do so Marcus casts Improved Invisibility while 200' in the air well outside of hearing range even at DC0. Atgas sense motive is 1, Formocks is 3, neither spot the barbarians acting unusually. Marcus orders them to attack the King. This I allow an extra save for as he is their King. They need a 16 with the +2 bonus. To deal with issues about rolls I will start linking to Invisible Castle.

Number 2 fails

Initiative: 19, 10, 2, 5, 17, 13, 1
Marcus 27
Barb 1 15
Barb 2 7
Formoch 7
Atga 23
Giant 1 12
Giant 2 0

Surprise Round:
Marcus: Potent Dominate Person at Formoch, DC24 but he saves Completely forgot about the 1 round casting time so this action is actually just a waste.

Barbarian 2: Rages and attacks his King hitting once for 36 damage (I assume they always power attack)

Round 1:
Marcus: Potent Confusion on the whole group hitting everyone. DC 23. Rolls are 5, 1, 1, 8, 18, 4. RNG is a b+&$#. Everyone is affected.

Atga: 93 She attacks the nearest target, in this case her King! She attacks him with her own scorching rays, she only hits with 1 attack for a measly 11 damage but they enter a confusion attack loop.

Barbarian 1: 100 attacks nearest target. I determine randomly amongst those available (using the order above). Number 5 means he attacks normal giant 2. He rages an full attacks hitting twice for 78 damage. It is still up but in the confusion attack loop.

Giant 1: 87 another attack nearest target. Randomly checking target we get Number 2! which is Barbarian 2. He scores two hits! for 52 damage

Formoch: Has been attacked by Atga so is compelled to attack her back. She is stood next to him so he full attacks her. He hits three times for 91 damage. Given the duration of False Life I assume she already has it cast (although the scenario would suggest otherwise) and therefore she survives with 9HP.

Barbarian 2: Has been attacked by Giant 1 and so retaliates. He is already raging so maintains that. two threats but both fail to confirm and he does 64 damage.

Giant 2: Attacks Barbarian 1 as part of the confusion loop. Hits once for 21 damage

So what is the state of play after round 1:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, as yet undetected.
Formoch: 159/170hp, confused, forced to attack Atga
Atga: 9/100hp, confused, forced to attack Formoch
Barbarian 1: 137/158hp, confused, locked into attack Giant 2
Barbarian 2: 106/158hp, confused, locked into attacking Giant 1
Giant 1: 21/85hp, confused, locked into attacking Barbarian 2
Giant 2: 7/85hp, confused, locked into attacking Barbarian 1

Round 2:
Marcus: Delays to see how the Confusion madness plays out.

Atga: Defensively casts Black Tentacles which will hit everyone. Makes the concentration check. CMB of 16 and she rolls 15. I actually rolled once for each target then reread the spell so have just used the first roll. The king has a CMD of 40, the Barbarians 32 and the normal Giants 24. Using the order in the initiative list above she only grapples Giant 1. However she has now attacked all of the Confused enemies making her the target of everyone's anger. Giant 1 takes 10 damage.

Barbarian 1: Is stuck in difficult terrain but moves towards Atga and takes a single swing. He hits and his minimum damage with power attack is enough to kill her.

Giant 1: Is currently grappled and has lost the target of his forced attack. Rerolls for confusion and gets to act normally. Tries to break free and fails/.

Formoch: His attacker is dead so he gets to roll again. He gets to act normally. I let him automatically realise they have been affected by an enchantment but he fails a spellcraft check to realise it is confusion. He doesn't have a protection from alignment or dispel magic memorised which is not great for a Cleric so he casts Air Walk and moves out of range of his minions.

Marcus: Acts at this point. Identifies the Air Walk with a 3. Casts Targeted dispel magic against the air walk. Uses potent magic to give him +2 caster level. Fails the caster level check but is still unseen by the King. I count this as an attack for the effect of Confusion. Marcus flies 40' straight up remaining at a 200' range.

Barbarian 2: Rerolls for confusion getting attack nearest again. Giant 1 is still closest and is grappled. He hits him twice easily killing him with the first blow. He avoids being grappled and wades out of the black tentacle area.

Giant 2: Rerolls for confusion and gets to act normally. It also wades out of the tentacles area.

End of round 2 state of play:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, being hunted by the King
Formoch: Confused, air walking, 159/170
Atga: A smear on the ground
Barbarian 1: 137/158, confused, free of tentacles
Barbarian 2: 106/158hp, confused, free of tentacles
Giant 1: Dead
Giant 2: 7/85hp, confused, out of tentacles

Round 3:

Barbarian 1: Rerolls for Confusion and stabs himself for 12 damage. His rage ends and he becomes fatigued.

Formoch: Is now focused on killing Marcus as he attacked him last turn assuming we treat dispel as an attack. He moves 40' upwards and casts Invisibility Purge but Marcus is out of range.

Marcus: Potent Dispel Magic against the Air Walk just fails so he moves upwards another 40'.

Barbarian 2: Attacks the nearest target, there are only two left, Barbarian 1 and Giant 2. He charges Barbarian 1 hitting for 35 damage. they enter the confusion combat loop.

Giant 2: Attacks nearest, this time Barbarian 1 or 2. He charges hitting Barbarian 1 for 26 damage

End of Round 3 situation:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, being hunted by the King
Formoch: Confused, air walking, focused on Marcus, 159/170
Atga: A smear on the ground
Barbarian 1: 38/132, confused, focused on Giant 2
Barbarian 2: 106/158hp, confused
Giant 1: Dead
Giant 2: 7/85hp, confused

Round 4:

Barbarian 1: Attacks Giant 2, hits once killing him.

Formoch: Runs upwards hoping to bring Marcus into range of the Invisibility Purge. Strictly speaking I don't think it is likely that he would succeed as you cannot go straight up with air walk but in the interests of drama I decide that it works. The King is now 200' in the air and Marcus is within charge range.

Marcus: A third potent Dispel Magic targeting the Air Walk. This time it works!. The King begins to float downwards snarling in confusion.

Barbarian 2: Stabs himself for 13 damage and his rage also ends

End of round 4 summary:

Marcus: Flying, being hunted by the King
Formoch: Confused, floating downwards, focused on Marcus, 159/170
Atga: A smear on the ground
Barbarian 1: 38/132, confused
Barbarian 2: 71/132hp, confused
Giant 1: Dead
Giant 2: Dead

Round 5:

Barbarian 1: Acts normally and seeing an enemy spellcaster above throws a rock at him which misses. Oddly the barbarians are listed as only getting a single thrown rock attack.

Formoch: Furious with the situation he throws a series of rocks at Marcus of which 2 hit for 36 damage, Ouch!

Marcus: Discretion is the better part of valour. He cloaks himself in improved invisibility again and flies to the side. Not having made an attack the King will be rerolling for confusion.

Barbarian 2: Attacks nearest target which is Barbarian 2. The three of them were together in a bit of a scrum so he gets a full attack. two hits deal a low 64 damage which still kills him.

End of Round 5 summary:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, 54/90
Formoch: Confused, floating downwards, 159/170
Atga: A smear on the ground
Barbarian 1: dead
Barbarian 2: 71/132hp, confused

Round 6:

Formoch: Rerolls for confusion, floats to the ground while babbling incoherently

Marcus: Delays to see what Barbarian 2 will do

Barbarian 2: Attacks the nearest target, only the King is left so he lobs a rock at him, confusion lock sets in. Hits for 26 damage

Marcus: At this point does not need to do anything. He moves downwards to keep people within range.

End of Round 6 summary:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, 54/90
Formoch: Confused, floating downwards, 133/170
Barbarian 2: 71/132hp, confused

Round 7:

Formoch: Continues to float downwards. Hurls rocks at Barbarian 2. 3 hits deals 50 damage

Barbarian 2: Returns fire but misses

Marcus: Lets them fight it out, casts Shield and moves downwards a little

End of Round 7 summary:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, 54/90
Formoch: Confused, floating downwards, 133/170
Barbarian 2: 21/132hp, confused

Round 8:

Formoch: throws rocks, I decide he will land at the end of this turn. Only 1 hits for 22 damage and Barbarian 2 is down and bleeding out.

Marcus: Descends to keep the King within range of medium range spells while staying out of the invisibility purge area. It only has a radius of 50', his medium range is 210'. scorching Ray on the King, all three hit as the Kings touch AC is currently 9 (no shield of faith, denied dex bonus to ac), 47 damage

End of Round 8 summary:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, 54/90
Formoch: Confused, floating downwards, 86/170, focused on Marcus but cannot see him

Round 9:

Formoch: Must attack but has no spells which allow him to do so as he doesn't know where his opponent is. Arguably he should stand and drool but instead I allow him to ready to throw a rock at where the next spell comes from

Marcus: Scorching ray number 2, all three hit for 39 damage then moves 40' off to the side.

Readied Action: Throws a rock which hits even past total concealment for 18 damage

End of Round 9 summary:

Marcus: Flying, invisible, 36/90
Formoch: Confused, floating downwards, 45/170, focused on Marcus but cannot see him

Round 10:

Formoch: Must continue to attack Marcus so readies again

Marcus: Knows he has to keep the Giant focused on him or he may get a chance to act normally and heal himself. He can realise he is a cleric given he has cast air walk and invisibility purge. Launches another batch of Scorching Rays risking the readied rock to the face. All three hit for 50 damage bringing the battle to an end.

With the Stairs cleared Marcus reports back to Venture Captain Heindmarch. He may well save his unconscious dominated Barbarian ally. He makes a fearsome guard, if a dangerous one to have around if an enemy drops a Protection from Evil spell on him.

Now you may suggest that he got very lucky on the Confusion and that is true. However, even if Atga and Formoch had saved they still have to subdue the Giants. Atga could have spotted him with See Invisibility but she has neither Dispel Magic nor a Protection from X spell so isn't doing much to stop the fighting. She knows if she tries to hold up any of them with Slow, Stinking Cloud or Tentacles she will get smashed and Marcus can immediate action counter spells she directs at him. The King is likewise facing difficulties against ranged attackers. I could have tried to counter the invisibility purge but it ended up not really being relevant.


Sitri wrote:

Confusion in general kicks the hell out of this scenario. I had an enchantment focused sorcerer that trivialized all the giant fights, and while I can't remember his level, I know he wasn't above 9 when he did it. I actually pulled a couple groans at the table the third time I cast it because everyone knew the combat was essentially a walk through. Confusion hits, we hang back, giants maul each other, then my party went in to play janitors.

While I appreciate the time and effort you put into the playtest and explaining what you have done, I think overall it speaks to the power of confusion over this scenario more than anything.

It certainly does as the last encounter clearly demonstrates. However that also speaks to the flexibility of the arcanist. He knows he is going against giants so Suggestion, Charm, Confusion and Dominate are all available. If he was heading into the Waking Rune then he would probably have Blindness, Stinking Cloud, Enervation and Feeblemind.

As much as I love the Sorcerer to cover your bases you need to spread your spells out over the save types. The Arcanist should do that generally as well but is better able to tailor his abilities if he knows even a little about what he is likely to meet.

Overall a capable Sorcerer, Wizard or Druid could very well have done the same as could some Clerics.


andreww wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:

This isn't a playtest. I want to be 100% clear about that.

It is a single person running both sides of the encounter with full knowledge of the tactics utilized on both sides ahead of time, what the stats are on both sides, and what the most optimal options are. With that in mind I don't really have much to take away from it.

Seems like theorycraft.

I want to be 100% clear that it is.

I don't think anyone would find much legitimacy to a playtest in which a player keeps a copy of the adventure open beside him as he plays in it. You've actively taken it a step forward to the point where not only do you have the adventure in front of you, but you are running both sides and making assumptions about it.

Even when attempting to avoid allowing any crossover of knowledge the reality is that it will consciously or unconsciously affect your decision making. Perhaps there is value in this as theorycraft, but it does not in any way reflect how the game is likely to play out at a table. It lacks the 'play' part of a playtest.


I started reading with one of your earlier playtests, but since everyone is chiming in here, I'll do so as well. I think these playtests have been entertaining, interesting, and useful. I feel seeing the arcanist in action has helped clarify the usefulness of some abilities. For example, I was initially concerned that the arcanist would have too few points in their arcane reservoir. These playtests have convinced me otherwise, at least for mid to high levels. On that note, most playtests reports have been about low level games, so it's nice to see something at higher levels. The one man party thing also highlights some stuff that's lost in playtests of larger parties. Sometimes, it can be hard to separate out what's due to each character. I'm not familiar with the modules in question, so I can't personally speak as to how faithfully you are following them. But based upon Marcus's spell selection, feats, etc., I don't think you are cheating (intentionally or not). Finally, it's just fun to read the story of an optimized character dominating (pun intended) encounters.


Peter Stewart wrote:

I don't think anyone would find much legitimacy to a playtest in which a player keeps a copy of the adventure open beside him as he plays in it. You've actively taken it a step forward to the point where not only do you have the adventure in front of you, but you are running both sides and making assumptions about it.

Even when attempting to avoid allowing any crossover of knowledge the reality is that it will consciously or unconsciously affect your decision making. Perhaps there is value in this as theorycraft, but it does not in any way reflect how the game is likely to play out at a table. It lacks the 'play' part of a playtest.

Essentially what you're arguing is that his experiences are invalid because, intentionally or no, he might be being dishonest about them. Problem with this is, what's the difference between a self-administered test like this (and remember, the developers have explicitly stated they're interested in hearing about single-player mock combats) and a "proper" test with a DM? Both of them have ample opportunities for the personal biases of the players (DM included) to sink into how the game is played and skew the results.

The scary part of this particular test is that Marcus was being played as about as low-op as an Arcanist can possibly be played, short of being outright suicidal, and he still shredded through the module like it was wet tissue paper.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Something I think to keep in mind when reading these. A single caster can do things that A party could not. As a single caster, he was able to stay invisible and bypass many things, if you had a party that just would not have been possible. He also was able to cast And Dash leaving the bad guys to reel against the effects of his spells.

And personally, I don't think anyone is calling into question the validity of what he is showing us. I think most people are merely pointing out that when you run both sides of an adventure path you can't really call it ate "playtest" it is a theirycraft because you're doing it all by yourself. I for one one find it interesting to see how the arcanist works out, but am well aware that he make some assumptions that most DM's wouldn't and that these adventure paths would play out completely different had a DM been involved or more party members


Scimmy wrote:
Something I think to keep in mind when reading these. A single caster can do things that A party could not. As a single caster, he was able to stay invisible and bypass many things, if you had a party that just would not have been possible. He also was able to cast And Dash leaving the bad guys to reel against the effects of his spells.

So what your saying is... The party is holding the wizkids back?

More seriously, I don't think the spell selection is out of the ordinary, nor the tactics. Looks more to me like its about an arcane caster in general than the arcanist though. I really enjoy the read! Wouldn't mind seeing more either.


Craft Cheese wrote:
The scary part of this particular test is that Marcus was being played as about as low-op as an Arcanist can possibly be played, short of being outright suicidal, and he still shredded through the module like it was wet tissue paper.

I don't think that is entirely true. As set up he makes a perfectly passable save or suck caster. Feat and Trait choices work reasonably well although not tailored to this particular adventure. I was clear that I didn't want to do that to avoid claims of Schrodingers Wizard. If I do more tests with him then they will remain the same.

He is hampered slightly by his alteration focus as that is what I went with for the level 16 test. It doesn't really come into its own at level 11. Next level he starts throwing persistent potent Baleful Polymorph.

Things that he wasn't using include:

1. Crafting. I have tended to think in PFS terms so avoid crafting but swapping out a feat for Craft Wondrous would be a decent idea to increase his available gear.

2. Planar Binding. This involves a fairly hefty amount of GM interpretation so I have avoided it so far.

3. Animate Dead. This could have been really useful with the Giants, zombie giant minions make for a decent meat shield but then so do Dominated ones. But it takes up a 5th level spell slot. If I had been more cautious I might have waited a day after the first encounter and animated myself a minion as well as having my Dominated friend.

4. Explosive Runes suicide bombers. I seriously doubt the legality of this tactic so generally avoid it.

5. Dazing evocations. These are crazily good but really shine when you have a BSF along to batter the helpless enemies while they are dazed. Being on your own you still have to remove them yourself so save or lose seems like the better choice.

What other options were you thinking of?


Scimmy wrote:
Something I think to keep in mind when reading these. A single caster can do things that A party could not. As a single caster, he was able to stay invisible and bypass many things, if you had a party that just would not have been possible. He also was able to cast And Dash leaving the bad guys to reel against the effects of his spells.

This is an absolutely valid point to make but what it suggests is that you are mechanically far better off bringing more people who can do similar things than those you cannot. This is unfortunate but tends to be true, especially at mid to high levels.

Quote:
And personally, I don't think anyone is calling into question the validity of what he is showing us. I think most people are merely pointing out that when you run both sides of an adventure path you can't really call it ate "playtest" it is a theirycraft because you're doing it all by yourself. I for one one find it interesting to see how the arcanist works out, but am well aware that he make some assumptions that most DM's wouldn't and that these adventure paths would play out completely different had a DM been involved or more party members

Looking at the GM calls made I don't think any of them are ones which "most GM's" would not make. Which did you have in mind?


MrSin wrote:
More seriously, I don't think the spell selection is out of the ordinary, nor the tactics. Looks more to me like its about an arcane caster in general than the arcanist though. I really enjoy the read! Wouldn't mind seeing more either.

Pretty much this. A well prepared Wizard or Druid could do the same as could a well built Sorcerer. I think many Clerics could manage it as well although it is harder for them as they lack easy access to long duration flight and have fewer offensive spells.

When I started this I had my doubts that the Arcanist got enough spells prepared per day to operate effectively on their own. Now I don't have those doubts.


Clear Spindle does not stop harpy song. There is no direct control. It's just an approach, in the same way that a sleep spell is just sleep and it doesn't work on that. He has good enough bonus that he might make all the saves, but if he didn't he's dead from a coup de grace.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Clear Spindle does not stop harpy song. There is no direct control. It's just an approach, in the same way that a sleep spell is just sleep and it doesn't work on that. He has good enough bonus that he might make all the saves, but if he didn't he's dead from a coup de grace.

Relevant text. Whether you can use CdG with it is up for debate also.

Spoiler:
protection from evil wrote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person).
Captivating Song wrote:
This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect


MrSin wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Clear Spindle does not stop harpy song. There is no direct control. It's just an approach, in the same way that a sleep spell is just sleep and it doesn't work on that. He has good enough bonus that he might make all the saves, but if he didn't he's dead from a coup de grace.

Relevant text. Whether you can use CdG with it is up for debate also.

** spoiler omitted **

Are you backing me up or telling me I'm wrong? If the former, thanks for getting the references--it saved me the time. If the latter (as I suspect), read it again

Quote:
against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person)

It includes some charm effects and compulsion effects. It doesn't include others, specifically (as per the FAQ by the PDT). Sleep is explicitly listed by the PDT because you can only put them to sleep, not control or command them or influence them to do what you ask. Captivating song is just the same, like confusion and sleep.

With a party of 1, whether you can use coup de grace is academic anyway. The harpies can kill you with normal attacks while you're captivated.


Note that normal English grammar leads a casual reader to assume that the "such as" in the quote above implies that the list of effects is not exhaustive and should be taken as examples of the type of effects the spell works against.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Clear Spindle does not stop harpy song. There is no direct control. It's just an approach, in the same way that a sleep spell is just sleep and it doesn't work on that. He has good enough bonus that he might make all the saves, but if he didn't he's dead from a coup de grace.

Relevant text. Whether you can use CdG with it is up for debate also.

** spoiler omitted **

Are you backing me up or telling me I'm wrong? If the former, thanks for getting the references--it saved me the time. If the latter (as I suspect), read it again

Quote:
against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person)

It includes some charm effects and compulsion effects. It doesn't include others, specifically (as per the FAQ by the PDT). Sleep is explicitly listed by the PDT because you can only put them to sleep, not control or command them or influence them to do what you ask. Captivating song is just the same, like confusion and sleep.

With a party of 1, whether you can use coup de grace is academic anyway. The harpies can kill you with normal attacks while you're captivated.

Actually I don't think its debatable because it's a charm effect and charm effects get blocked by Protection from Evil.


Caedwyr wrote:
Note that normal English grammar leads a casual reader to assume that the "such as" in the quote above implies that the list of effects is not exhaustive and should be taken as examples of the type of effects the spell works against.

Yes, of course. But it doesn't protect against ALL charms and compulsions. It also protects against suggestion for instance, which isn't on the list.

Scavion wrote:
Actually I don't think its debatable because it's a charm effect and charm effects get blocked by Protection from Evil.

It's not debatable. It only works against effects that exercise mental control.

FAQ wrote:

Does protection from evil (good/law/etc.) work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or does it just work against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion.

Weirdly, since we both said it was not debatable under opposite interpretations, I guess it is debatable. It certainly used to be debatable, but the FAQ has been out for years (since May 2011). I'll settle for saying it's still debatable in home games but the PDT have clarified the intent for RAW.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:

It's not debatable. It only works against effects that exercise mental control.

FAQ wrote:

Does protection from evil (good/law/etc.) work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or does it just work against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion.

Ideally, Harpy's song would be added to that FAQ. "Calling" creatures implies some measure of control, versus the random effects of Confusion or Sleep just shutting them down.

And the question is asked...frequently.


redward wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:

It's not debatable. It only works against effects that exercise mental control.

FAQ wrote:

Does protection from evil (good/law/etc.) work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or does it just work against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion.

Ideally, Harpy's song would be added to that FAQ. "Calling" creatures implies some measure of control, versus the random effects of Confusion or Sleep just shutting them down.

One rule of thumb I use to determine if it's establishing control is to consider an aura effect that puts the spell on a creature that the aura's originator isn't aware of, and so the originator doesn't do anything else other than put the effect up. If the effect still works to its fullest without any control being given, then it wasn't establishing mental control. By this standard, for instance, a seugathi's ability to choose actions during a confusion (or a Warpriest of the Madness domain) would be blocked, but not the confusion itself. I can do a list of all the wizard/sorcerer enchantment spells in the game and whether they pass this test or not, but harpy's song does (an oblivious harpy can still wind up captivating people towards her, in fact it has happened in my games in two different runs of Rise of the Runelords).

redward wrote:
And the question is asked...frequently.

Yeah, I was surprised people up til you hadn't seen one of the bajillion other threads about this that link the FAQ.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:


Yes, of course. But it doesn't protect against ALL charms and compulsions. It also protects against suggestion for instance, which isn't on the list.

Read it again. What you seem to think it says is "(including someenchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects)".

This is incorrect. As written, Protection from Evil blocks all charm effects, compulsion effects, and any other effects that exercise control over the subject.

Whether this is the intended functionality or not is largely irrelevant. Until a change is made in an errata document, that is how the spell works. FAQ's are not errata; they are used for clarification, not functionality changes, and are little better than declaration of intent.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
redward wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:

It's not debatable. It only works against effects that exercise mental control.

FAQ wrote:

Does protection from evil (good/law/etc.) work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or does it just work against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion.

Ideally, Harpy's song would be added to that FAQ. "Calling" creatures implies some measure of control, versus the random effects of Confusion or Sleep just shutting them down.

One rule of thumb I use to determine if it's establishing control is to consider an aura effect that puts the spell on a creature that the aura's originator isn't aware of, and so the originator doesn't do anything else other than put the effect up. If the effect still works to its fullest without any control being given, then it wasn't establishing mental control. By this standard, for instance, a seugathi's ability to choose actions during a confusion (or a Warpriest of the Madness domain) would be blocked, but not the confusion itself. I can do a list of all the wizard/sorcerer enchantment spells in the game and whether they pass this test or not, but harpy's song does (an oblivious harpy can still wind up captivating people towards her, in fact it has happened in my games in two different runs of Rise of the Runelords).

redward wrote:
And the question is asked...frequently.
Yeah, I was surprised people up til you hadn't seen one of the bajillion other threads about this that link the FAQ.

Uh, even a Confused fellow can still defend himself.

Heres what it looks like. Charm Effect.

The target MUST move towards the origin of the song. They MUST take the most direct path possible. If that path is dangerous, they get another save (Hrm, has a qualifier for another save, much like another powerful domination spell we all know). Then they are UNABLE to defend themselves from the Harpy.

That sounds mighty compulsive.

Think of it like the Bard's Fascinate ability, that ability has the Enchantment(Compulsion) tied to it.

I'm fairly certain that charm effect is just a shorthand of Enchantment(Charm)


Muspellsheimr wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:


Yes, of course. But it doesn't protect against ALL charms and compulsions. It also protects against suggestion for instance, which isn't on the list.

Read it again. What you seem to think it says is "(including someenchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects)".

This is incorrect. As written, Protection from Evil blocks all charm effects, compulsion effects, and any other effects that exercise control over the subject.

Whether this is the intended functionality or not is largely irrelevant. Until a change is made in an errata document, that is how the spell works. FAQ's are not errata; they are used for clarification, not functionality changes, and are little better than declaration of intent.

Pathfinder doesn't work the same as 3.5. FAQs are binding official rulings. Not in your home games, of course, where you can house rule whatever you want. But in PFS or any other game that runs by the official rules, such as a playtest, you need to use them.


Scavion wrote:

Uh, even a Confused fellow can still defend himself.

Heres what it looks like. Charm Effect.

The target MUST move towards the origin of the song. They MUST take the most direct path possible. If that path is dangerous, they get another save (Hrm, has a qualifier for another save, much like another powerful domination spell we all know). Then they are UNABLE to defend themselves from the Harpy.

That sounds mighty compulsive.

Think of it like the Bard's Fascinate ability, that ability has the Enchantment(Compulsion) tied to it.

I'm fairly certain that charm effect is just a shorthand of Enchantment(Charm)

Scavion--it's definitely an enchantment charm effect. That doesn't mean Prot Evil stops it, as per the FAQ. Your same argument of "even a confused fellow can still defend himself" does not hold for sleep, so we can't use it. It also doesn't work for hold person which is another one on the obvious list of not being blocked by prot evil.

We aren't trying to prove "compulsive" (obviously things with a compulsion descriptor are compulsive) but rather "direct control". By the way, an evil bard's fascinate would also not be prevented by prot evil, but if they used suggestion it would.


I disagree. "Direct" is not in the FAQ wording. Control is. Captivating Song is controlling your actions. That fact is true. As is Fascinate. The caster may not be directly controlling their actions, but they are.

Sleep doesn't exert control over the individual and neither does Confusion.

I meant that there is some sort of hefty duty compulsion going on if a character is unable to defend himself.


Scavion wrote:

I disagree. "Direct" is not in the FAQ wording. Control is. Captivating Song is controlling your actions. That fact is true. As is Fascinate. The caster may not be directly controlling their actions, but they are.

Sleep doesn't exert control over the individual and neither does Confusion.

I meant that there is some sort of hefty duty compulsion going on if a character is unable to defend himself.

If Captivating Song and Fascinate are controlling your actions, so are sleep (forces your action to be only sleeping, just like fascinate forces your action to be standing around fascinated) and confusion (forces your actions to be one of four effects, which are chosen at random). By a loose enough definition, you could claim that almost anything is controlling your actions.


Could you take the Harpy Song discussion to its own rule thread. I disagree with Rogue Eidolon that it doesn't exercise ongoing control as it compels you to move towards the Harpy. Sleep is quite different. The spell doesn't prevent you from being woken up.

However, the discussion is irrelevant to the playtest.


andreww wrote:

Could you take the Harpy Song discussion to its own rule thread. I disagree with Rogue Eidolon that it doesn't exercise ongoing control as it compels you to move towards the Harpy. Sleep is quite different. The spell doesn't prevent you from being woken up.

However, the discussion is irrelevant to the playtest.

There's already been over a dozen rules threads, and the result is actually relevant because there's a non-negligible chance your arcanist dies to the harpies based on the result. You're right that it's cluttering the thread though. Sorry!

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