Please critique my House Rules


Homebrew and House Rules


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Hello guys!

As the title indicates, I'm writing down some house rules to be used on my current (Kingmaker) campaign and others down the line. They focus most on the player character end (feats, traits, and class mechanics).

The goal: With these house rules I mean to enable certain ineffective builds a little less painful, and provide more options for others that are somewhat pigeonholed into using a specific weapon/mechanic (I'm looking at you, Dervish Dance!). I also aim to make martial characters a little more well-rounded, adding a couple skill points and reducing some of their feat taxes to allow for some non-specialized feats (my players generally like to have options, like a two-weapon fighter having one or two archery feats. Yeah, I know.).

That said, here we go (I'll try to italicize small changes in otherwise unchanged text):

Classes
Change the Cleric, Fighter, Paladin and Sorcerer core classes Skill Ranks per Level to 4 + Int modifier.
Change the Magus and Summoner base classes Skill Ranks per Level to 4 + Int modifier.
Any effects that would improve any of these classes' Skill Points per Level to 4 instead increases them by 2.

I simply hate 2 + Int per level. I feel Wizards and Witches need to stay there or else they'll put the skill monkeys out of their jobs.

If a class ability states that the character may use her bonus on a skill in place of her bonus in other skills (such as the Bard's Versatile Performance or the Vivisectionist Alchemist's Cruel Anatomist), she may immediately reassign the skill points previously assigned on the associated skills being substituted.

That's just common sense. The retrain rules already allow this somewhat, but are disrupting and expensive on a situation like that.

Fighter
Add the following line on the description of the Bravery class ability:

This bonus also apply to the DC of any Intimidate check performed against the fighter.

It always made very little sense to me that the fighter was as easily demoralized in combat as the wizard. It's also a very small bonus to a very specialized mechanic.

Skills

Craft

Change the following line on the skill's description:

Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you'll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check. You may add +10 to the DC any number of times. Emphasis mine.

Add the following line to the Special section of the skill's description:

When you begin the crafting proccess, you may decide to craft hastily, spending more raw material but finishing the project sooner. You pay 1/2 of the item's price for the raw material cost, but your weekly or daily progress is measured in gold pieces instead of silver pieces.

Craft as-is is unusable in game. I find that my players take the craft skill in order to have something their characters made themselves, not for squeezing out a few coins. This way we reach a reasonable compromise.

Traits

Add the following traits:

Exotic Weapon Training: You trained for years in a martial tradition based around a particular, difficult to master weapon. Choose one type of Exotic Weapon. You are proficient with that weapon and make attack rolls with the weapon normally.

The majority of exotic weapons are not worth the feat. The ones that do are generally banned in our games anyway (like the falcata).

Martial Weapon Training: You served at a town's militia or trained with warrior-priests in a church. Choose two types of Martial Weapons. You are proficient with those weapons and make attack rolls with the weapons normally.

Please let me know if you think this one is too strong.

Monastic Martial Artist: You learned a martial art form focusing on mastery over a specific weapon as a path to perfection. You may have learned it during many years living on a monastery or by a single monastic mentor from far away. Choose a light or one-handed melee weapon you are proficient with. You treat that weapon as a monk special weapon.

This tries to add a little variety to the monk and provides a way to represent some character such as Li Mu Bai from Crouching Tiger. I want to be able to have a specific order of monks that uses a spear, longsword or even a spiked chain. Please let me know if there is a way to exploit this.

Skill Training: You pursued interests out of your field to better complement your talents. Choose one skill. You gain a +1 bonus on that skill's checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you.
This is simply to save time. My players generally come to the first session with a good enough idea of their background, and we generally discard the fluff side of traits. If you want your cleric of Erastil to be trained at Survival, just take it.

Feats

Most of my changes here mean to consolidate some feat trees to reduce feat tax, mostly involving maneuvers and TWF.

The feat "Dervish Dance" is removed from the game. Any class ability that would provide it as a bonus feat provides the Nimble Strike feat below.

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, BAB +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full BAB against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Special: When your BAB increases to +4, you can take another additional attack against another adjacent target that is also within reach and has not been attacked by you in this turn. The number of targets and attacks continues to increase by 1 at BAB +8, +12, +16 and +20.

Combat Expertise (Combat)
You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.
Prerequisite: Dex 13 or Int 13.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.

Double Slice (Combat)
Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon. The bonus to melee damage rolls from the Power Attack feat is not halved on attacks made with an off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand. The bonus on melee damage rolls from the Power Attack feat is halved if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon.

This here is one of my biggest worries. I don't mean for the TWFer to deal better damage than the Two-hander, but I mean to mitigate some of the penalties inherent to the style. Is this too much?

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Combat)
Choose two types of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain and the whip or the sai and the kama. You understand how to use those types of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities those exotic weapons might allow.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapons normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: You can gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to two new types of exotic weapon.

Martial Weapon Proficiency (Combat)
You understand how to use martial weapons in combat.
Benefit: You make attack rolls with martial weapons normally (without the non-proficient penalty).
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select this feat.

Spending a feat to get 1 martial weapon is silly. If you know how to use more weapons you get more versatility, but not raw power.

Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Also choose one of the following feats: Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft Wondrous Item feats. You are considered to have that feat, and ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of crafting magic items using it. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

Nimble Strike (Combat)
You have learned to turn your speed into power.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Acrobatics 2 ranks.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon (or any weapon useable with the Weapon Finesse feat) with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand. The weapon must be for a creature of your size.

Yep, this is Dervish Dance for any kind of finesse-able weapon. I'm torn between letting it apply to any qualifying weapon or only one chosen by you. I also want to make this work for the elven curve blade somehow.

Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Special: When your base attack bonus reaches +6, in addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty. When your base attack bonus reaches +11, you get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

This reduces a LOT the feat taxes on Two-Weapon Fighting. At the moment, it also removes the need for a higher Dex. Maybe I should still require the Dex score?

Two-Weapon Versatility
You can fight with two different weapons equally well.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you fight with two weapons, you can apply the effects of certain feats and abilities from one weapon to the other weapon as well, as long as those effects can be applied legally. You can use this ability only with the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Improved Penetrating Strike, Penetrating Strike, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization. You can also use this ability with the Weapon Training ability.
Special: If a character already has any of these feats with both weapons, she gains no additional effect.

Lifted and somewhat reworked from the Tempest 3.5 class. It allows characters such as Ulf Gormundr or Valeros to use two different weapons and not get too penalized for that.

Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
Special: When your base attack bonus reaches +11, you roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack three times before adding bonuses, and four times when your base attack bonus reaches +16.

I know there's some unforeseen consequences to consolidating this tree, but it's almost 5 AM and I need to sleep.

Equipment

Add the following line to the scimitar description:
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a scimitar sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.

Scimitar finesse is a common enough trope. This way you can start using it with Dex at first level and apply it to damage on second or third (instead of sucking one or two levels before getting Dervish Dance).


Interesting.

My feedback? Well I'm a minimalist and a believer in Keep It Simple, so I don't like to mess about too much.

Classes
The fighter is the only class that NEEDS the skills bonus. Of the rest, most have other class features that compensate their lack of skills.

Fighter
Why not just make Bravery a blanket bonus to all Will saves and have done?

Skills
With the Masterwork spell, this kind of becomes redundant.

Traits
I like these! But I think Monastic Martial Artist should be a feat, not a trait. Being able to flurry with ANY weapon is actually a dig deal.

Feats
I like everything except Nimble Strike. With it, Dexterity does too much, and this was made a weapon property for a reason. I did a lot of debating about this option a few years back, and I came around to realizing that it IS too strong. What I tried instead was an option that added intelligence bonus to damage instead of strength, and that worked rather nicely. Or you could make it a rogue talent to help out the poor rogue?

Also, consider having an Improved Double Slice that grants the advantage of not halving Power Attack damage instead. Or leave it as is, you've already levelled the playing field between two weapons and a two-handed weapon.

Equipment
I'd add the katana (when used two handed) to the finesseable weapons here.

What's Missing?
How about incorporating my monk changes? They are play-tested to 8th level and work well at bringing up one of the weakest classes to a decent standard.


Thank you very much for your feedback, Dabbler. I'll definitely be taking a look at your monk changes.

Dabbler wrote:

Classes

The fighter is the only class that NEEDS the skills bonus. Of the rest, most have other class features that compensate their lack of skills.

What do you mean by other class features? Both the paladin, sorcerer and cleric are always stuck with that score.

Dabbler wrote:

Fighter

Why not just make Bravery a blanket bonus to all Will saves and have done?

Honestly, I'd rather like that, but as you pointed out, I too like to change as little as possible (that's why you see topical changes to feats and abilities instead of the underlying mechanics). Interestingly, if it simply applied to Will saves, it wouldn't apply against Intimidate.

Dabbler wrote:

Skills

With the Masterwork spell, this kind of becomes redundant.

Maybe it does. But as I said before, my players generally take the Craft skill to be able to use stuff built by them, and to build stuff to other characters. We also incorporate a lot of downtime.

Dabbler wrote:

Traits

I like these! But I think Monastic Martial Artist should be a feat, not a trait. Being able to flurry with ANY weapon is actually a dig deal.

On the Eberron setting there were a couple feats just like that - it allowed you to use one specific weapon (such as a spear or longsword) as a monk weapon. There is a hidden cost here - the trait does not provide proficiency with said weapon, so it would cost at least one other trait to add that. That being said, I think providing a big bonus to a class that desperately needs it may not be that bad after all (specially as this bonus tends to get weaker on higher levels as the monk's unarmed damage gets better and better).

I'd really like to have a monk player character to test this, though. I'll try running a few simulations; what's the best, most gamebreaking weapon that could fit in this trait?

Dabbler wrote:

Feats

I like everything except Nimble Strike. With it, Dexterity does too much, and this was made a weapon property for a reason. I did a lot of debating about this option a few years back, and I came around to realizing that it IS too strong. What I tried instead was an option that added intelligence bonus to damage instead of strength, and that worked rather nicely. Or you could make it a rogue talent to help out the poor rogue?

The problem is; Dervish Dance already is out there. It is an obligatory feat for any Dex build that can use it somehow (such as the magus), and it is setting material just like the Agile enhancement (and so, each of them may not be available in a determinate campaign). All I meant to do with Nimble Strike was widen the options available (so a Dex magus can pick another weapon, like an Aldori dueling sword or a rapier). I can see it throws too much on the Dexterity bandwagon - do you feel the limitation of "one free hand" doesn't cover that? What's your opinion on the original Dervish Dance feat?

Dabbler wrote:
Also, consider having an Improved Double Slice that grants the advantage of not halving Power Attack damage instead. Or leave it as is, you've already levelled the playing field between two weapons and a two-handed weapon.

I think that as a feat, it would not stand alone. Do you mean that, abandoning the Double Slice change, the TWFer is already good enough by the changes on the other feats?

Dabbler wrote:

Equipment

I'd add the katana (when used two handed) to the finesseable weapons here.

That's an interesting idea and a common enough trope to merit consideration.

Dabbler wrote:

What's Missing?

How about incorporating my monk changes? They are play-tested to 8th level and work well at bringing up one of the weakest classes to a decent standard.

I'll take a good look at it. Do you have a thread where I could provide feedback?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Rune wrote:
what's the best, most gamebreaking weapon that could fit in this trait?

Hmm. My gut reaction is to assume a 6-8 attack flurry of blows using a 15-20 threat range (keen rapier) and a variety of critical feats to inflict a pile of negative statuses on a foe.

Which still might be more annoying than broken.


ryric wrote:

Hmm. My gut reaction is to assume a 6-8 attack flurry of blows using a 15-20 threat range (keen rapier) and a variety of critical feats to inflict a pile of negative statuses on a foe.

Which still might be more annoying than broken.

That is indeed a good combo, nicely caught. How does this compare with, let's say, a monk using a nine-section whip or temple sword (both one-handed 1d8, 19-20/x2 weapons)? He would spend one less feat/trait, since both are already monk weapons.

Do monks get to use their flurry BAB to qualify for feats? If not that combo would take a LOT of time to get online (on 13th he gets Critical Focus, on 15th Sickening Critical and on 17th Staggering?).

I can live with that. A Maneuver Master probably would wreck more mayhem with his maneuvers, a regular monk would deal more damage; maybe this guy can thread the middle path. I'm still considering turning it into a feat, but I think it would never get picked (it would be easier to gain proficiency on a temple sword that is already a monk weapon).


I approve of all your house rules. I have similar ones in my games. I particularly like your take on cleave and two-weapon fighting. Elegant fixes.


About Nimble Strike :

The scimitar is already one of the best one-handed martial weapon. The dervish dance limitation to scimitar is arbitrary and it can't be explained by balance issue. Scimitars are better than short sword, dagger, handaxe and kukri and equivalent to rapier (same damage, same crit) and aldori dueling sword. The Dervish Dance feat is actually a boring thing that creates a universal build for almost every moderately optimized magus and most dexterity based character. Allowing more weapon option won't break the game if we keep the one-handed limitation of Dervish dance and it will allow more diversity. I definitively take the idea.

About the monk weapon thing :

The temple sword is already available and it's almost a long sword...which is the classic one-handed martial weapon. All other one-handed martial weapons are similar, with different dmg/crit balancing. Seems correct to me, except that if your DM is using strict random treasure table, you will get more magic weapon for you than if using a monk weapon (which is not bad thing for the poor monk).

I already imagine a badass pirate - monk - martial artist fighting in shirt with a cutlass ^^


"Doomed Hero wrote:
I approve of all your house rules. I have similar ones in my games. I particularly like your take on cleave and two-weapon fighting. Elegant fixes.

I actually meant to do that for all maneuver feats. The idea is that you get the benefits of the "Greater" ones on the level where you would fill its requisites. What's your opinion on this?

Kelazan wrote:
The Dervish Dance feat is actually a boring thing that creates a universal build for almost every moderately optimized magus and most dexterity based character. Allowing more weapon option won't break the game if we keep the one-handed limitation of Dervish dance and it will allow more diversity. I definitively take the idea.

That's exactly my point. The dex-to-damage proverbial cat is already out of the bag, and it's a jealous one. This way we get a swashbuckling rogue/fighter (or even the new ACG Swashbuckler) with no scimitars attached.


Do you guys feel that the Nimble Strike feat as-is is too powerful? Right now it applies to each and every finesse-able weapon. That gives these characters a little bit of versatility (a finesse fighter could easily grab a light mace to destroy those pesky skeletons), comparable to Strength ones.

What if it applied to only one chosen weapon? Also, how broken would be a Elven Curve Blade wielder benefiting from this feat?

Sovereign Court

What do your players think of the proposed rules changes?

Have they been asking for them?


Good questions Morgen, made myself look at all of my proposed changes with new eyes. I'll sleep on that and look at it from another angle tomorrow, but for now I can tell you some changes are direct answers to demands (the rogue would like to try maneuvers once in his life, another player would like to build an Aldori magus, etc.), some are responses to in-game noticed problems (such as the Craft construction times) and some (all of the monk ones, for example) are selfishly-motivated by personal preference and world-building purposes (I have in-game a monk order devoted to developing the perfect mixed martial art for the Aldori dueling sword).

I'll try to give you a more detailed answer tomorrow, after I can reevaluate their worth. I have yet to reveal them to my players; I was hoping the collective wisdom of the forums could show me the breaking points on these before I unleash them on my group.


Rune wrote:
"Doomed Hero wrote:
I approve of all your house rules. I have similar ones in my games. I particularly like your take on cleave and two-weapon fighting. Elegant fixes.
I actually meant to do that for all maneuver feats. The idea is that you get the benefits of the "Greater" ones on the level where you would fill its requisites. What's your opinion on this?

My opinion is that every last Combat Maneuver, as well as Power Attack and Combat Expertise should just be a combat option for anyone with a BaB of higher than +1.

This makes combat a lot more interesting if "hit them int he face" isn't the only real viable strategy.

The Improved [combat maneuver] feats should start at the +6 BaB versions that give additional effects upon successful maneuvers.


I vote for Nimble strike being attached to only one specific weapon. Even the gunslinger isn't able to add his dext to damage with all guns with gun training.

If you realy want to be a finesse bludgeon (a little bit strange, but I can image it...) you can select light hammer as your weapon and smash skeletons all day long.


Rune wrote:

Thank you very much for your feedback, Dabbler. I'll definitely be taking a look at your monk changes.

Dabbler wrote:

Classes

The fighter is the only class that NEEDS the skills bonus. Of the rest, most have other class features that compensate their lack of skills.
What do you mean by other class features? Both the paladin, sorcerer and cleric are always stuck with that score.

They have spells. Spells give them more versatility than skills do by a long way, and frankly both classes are very powerful as it is. Limited skills is the price you pay for that.

Rune wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Fighter

Why not just make Bravery a blanket bonus to all Will saves and have done?
Honestly, I'd rather like that, but as you pointed out, I too like to change as little as possible (that's why you see topical changes to feats and abilities instead of the underlying mechanics). Interestingly, if it simply applied to Will saves, it wouldn't apply against Intimidate.

True, I agree apply it to intimidate as well.

Rune wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Skills

With the Masterwork spell, this kind of becomes redundant.
Maybe it does. But as I said before, my players generally take the Craft skill to be able to use stuff built by them, and to build stuff to other characters. We also incorporate a lot of downtime.

I like your games already!

Rune wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Traits

I like these! But I think Monastic Martial Artist should be a feat, not a trait. Being able to flurry with ANY weapon is actually a dig deal.

On the Eberron setting there were a couple feats just like that - it allowed you to use one specific weapon (such as a spear or longsword) as a monk weapon. There is a hidden cost here - the trait does not provide proficiency with said weapon, so it would cost at least one other trait to add that. That being said, I think providing a big bonus to a class that desperately needs it may not be that bad after all (specially as this bonus tends to get weaker on higher levels as the monk's unarmed damage gets better and better).

I'd really like to have a monk player character to test this, though. I'll try running a few simulations; what's the best, most gamebreaking weapon that could fit in this trait?...

Falcata. Two handed, using Power Attack and flurrying with a keen falacata you will do a horrible amount of damage.

I agree, the monk needs decent weapons, and half the problem is that many monk weapons the monk himself is not proficient with. That's the biggest problem there and then. By giving monks proficiency with all monk weapons you open a lot of doors to start with.

The Eberron feats were all tied to specific weapons, and that's not a bad way of opening the door.

Rune wrote:
The problem is; Dervish Dance already is out there. It is an obligatory feat for any Dex build that can use it somehow (such as the magus), and it is setting material just like the Agile enhancement (and so, each of them may not be available in a determinate campaign). All I meant to do with Nimble Strike was widen the options available (so a Dex magus can pick another weapon, like an Aldori dueling sword or a rapier). I can see it throws too much on the Dexterity bandwagon - do you feel the limitation of "one free hand" doesn't cover that? What's your opinion on the original Dervish Dance feat?

I can't stand it. It shoe-horns the dex-based fighter in one weapon option.

How about this: Limit the Nimble option in one of two ways, either tie it to a specific weapon (like the rapier) or place more requisites - like having Weapon Focus with the specific weapon, and Combat Expertise.

Rune wrote:
I'll take a good look at it. Do you have a thread where I could provide feedback?

I do, I've been play-testing the changes in this thread. Any and all feedback and commentary welcomed.


Since you're not messing with the load-bearing parts of the rule system, don't be afraid to make big changes. +4 skill points for everyone, Int bonus to Int skills only. Everyone with craft skills can craft magic items. Don't hold back.


Kelazan wrote:

I vote for Nimble strike being attached to only one specific weapon. Even the gunslinger isn't able to add his dext to damage with all guns with gun training.

If you realy want to be a finesse bludgeon (a little bit strange, but I can image it...) you can select light hammer as your weapon and smash skeletons all day long.

This is actually a very nice idea.


Big support for "focused" Nimble Strike. Even my rules-lawyer player recommended it. Consider it fixed.

But what about someone using the Elven Curve Blade with (a slightly reworded) Nimble Strike? That comes from a direct player request. Of course, it wouldn't apply 1.5 the Dex bonus to damage.

I feel it could be exploited by taking 2 levels of ranger and picking the Power Attack combat style feat regardless of requisites (so Strength could be properly dumped). At that point you'd have a level 3 character (he would need another level to pick Nimble Strike) dealing 1d10+7 damage (while a similar STR character would deal 2d6+9 damage). I feel the trade-off may be enough; on one hand the finesse two-hander gets to dump STR, has better AC and Reflexes but on the other he has to spend 2 feats (Weapon Finesse and Nimble Strike), has worse overall damage and takes a while to get online (at the very minimum level 2).


Hmm, I certainly would have liked that for my Halfling paladin. 1d10+4(Dex)+9(Power Attack is a nice amount, and that's before it's +1, smite, and divine bond.


Azten, do you feel it would be worth the 3-feat investment for that character (Exotic Weapon Prof., Weapon Finesse and Nimble Strike)?

I stand by the perceived worth of the feat, specially considering Small races with martial classes that tend to get the short end of the stick.


Yes I do. In fact, for that Ranger you used as an example, he'd still need the three feats to pull off the damage you gave, and that means level 3 for him if he's human. Level two for a human fighter.


Getting there from a fighter means you can't really dump Strength - you'll need at least 13 to get Power Attack, so that's not an issue. I was more worried about guys dumping Strength to 7 (5 for a gnome/halfling) and using all those points elsewhere. That's my worst-case scenario.

Huh, if my worst-case scenario is a halfling/gnome meleer getting a boost I'm actually fine with it. I much rather prefer to provide a good finesse route for them than have a lot of high-Strength midget Stallones running around.


I don't think the Nimble + elven curveblade situation is an issue. Yes, you can in theory pump it very high, but really you aren't doing as much as a strength-focussed character could achieve with the same weapon, and you are paying for it in feats.


I like Nimble Strike a lot. Personally, I'm on the fence about having it be "Improved Weapon Finesse" and add a BAB or Weapon Focus prereq instead of the acrobatics prereq.


Add "greater nimble strike" for two-handed weapons you can finesse?

Sovereign Court

Rune wrote:
I have yet to reveal them to my players; I was hoping the collective wisdom of the forums could show me the breaking points on these before I unleash them on my group.

I would expect that you see that as a very common approach on these forums but this unfortunately practice is really doing things backwards. Discussing the plans with people (no matter how well meaning) who really have no investment in your game and who might not even share your group's style of play before talking to the people who are actually going to use said rules isn't usually the best course of action.

I try to chime in like this every now and then to nudge people back into their circles before they try to alter everything and pull the rug out of their players creativity because the random noise on the forums decided that X didn't work or so forth. Everyone is happy to help of course but for the most part your going to get a lot of noise compared to what your going to get out of your group consensus.


I actually sent it here more to discover any weak spots or unintended consequences before sending it to my players. riryc's response, for instance, brought a combination I'd hadn't thought about and made me investigate it. At this point there is much to be said about the power of a collective think tank like these forums.

I expect this to the first round of some back-and-forth (actually the second, I've sent this to my resident rules-lawyer and he suggested some changes already - the focusing on Nimble Strike and maybe allowing it for the Elven Curve Blade).


Azten wrote:
Add "greater nimble strike" for two-handed weapons you can finesse?

Why? It's not like they gain anything extra out of it like strength x 1.5.


Note that if you want decent armor, its kinda obnoxious to totally dunp sgrenth anyway.


Your house rules look good, I think I would enjoy playing in your game!
That said, I love house rules and would encourage you to look into incorporating even more of them in your game. There are lots of great ideas in other threads on this forum.

I feel that Monks, Rogues, and Fighters particularly could use a few boosts to their repertoire to keep the game interesting for them in all aspects of play. Monks and Rogues could use some combat improvements and Fighters could use some more tools to use out of combat.


Just adding one I thought of on another topic:

Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You have trained extensively wielding one-handed weapons in each hand until your movements seem effortless to others.
Prerequisites: Str 13 and Dex 15.
Benefit: If you wield an one-handed weapon in each hand, your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalties for both your primary hand and off hand lessen by 2.


Even as a relatively new DM I can tell that these are some nice changes. The Nimble Strike is really the big one here, though. I do agree that it should be focused, however if that becomes the case then it should be a feat that you can take multiple times. You never know when a player will decided, "F this, I'm done with the rapier. I wanna try something else."

Like someone else said, the ability to use spells does sort of compensate for having a small amount of skill ranks per level. However, as you point out, Wizards and Witches have a clear usability advantage over light-spell users like the Paladin and Magus. My suggestion would be to tweak the skill rule just slightly so that only the fighter get the 4 + INT MOD with the rest getting 3. That way there's a bit more a happy balance.

Like I said though, I haven't DMed all that much, so point out if I'm wrong here.

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