Assuming you're a high level wizard, what would be the best methods of taking down a Dragon, let's say a Red Dragon? Let's say 9th level spells.
Summon a bunch of Fire Elements? Freeze it in ice? Cast Fiery Body on yourself? Turn into a dragon yourself? I'm curious how you guys would go about it.
Well a smart dragon (assuming it can go first) will cast antimagic on itself. Then its still a dragon and you can't do anything to it.
You better kill it in one turn, because you're magic wont work on round two.
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maximized empowered calcific touch and haste with multiple touch attacks.
0 Dex dragon = coup de grace.
YIDM
If anti magic feild, try to get as high a cl on disjunction as possible and spam it. Get some planar allies afore hand and then cast mass suffocation. Could work anywho. Wail of the banshee, quickened disintegrate is possible with a metamagic adjust... Time stop summon some meat sheilds. Repeat as many times as necessary. Meh anti magic is tough for you...
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Well, you really, really need to either a) kill it in one turn, or b) hide yourself really really really well, because if the dragon knows where you are at the start of its turn you're pretty dead. Note of course that elder dragons know Dispel Magic and See Invisibility, and have blindsense 60 ft and possibly even Discern Location as a SLA.
So how do you incapacitate/kill a Great Wyrm red dragon in one round? Keep in mind its got SR 33, immunity to fire, paralysis, and sleep,
saves of fort +25 will +24 reflex +14, and 449 hp. In fact, there's only two numbers in its stat block that's less than 10: its Dex of 6 and Touch AC of 0. So any touch attack is an auto-hit except on a 1.
So that's the weak point: Dexterity. A creature with 0 dexterity is incapable of moving, which means no spells with somatic components. That still leaves an extremely dangerous dragon with spells like Greater Shout and breath weapons, but it should be easy enough to handle after that.
Here are spells that might help (remember Exhaustion gives -6 to dex):
8th: Polar Ray
7th: Waves of Exhaustion
4th: Calcific Touch
3rd: Ray of Exhaustion
As YIDM suggested, one Maximized, Empowered Calcific Touch should do it... as long as you can overcome the dragon's SR. An Elf with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration gets a +6, and if you prepare a Piercing Maximized Empowered Calcific Touch, you'll get another +5, which should give you good odds.
Of course, keep in mind that dragons know Contingency, and could very easily have a Contingency to Teleport somewhere if they are disabled/KOd. In which case you better finish it off quick, or leave the material plane and don't come back.
assuming it can go first
With an initiative mod of +3 or +2 if you're looking at the really high level dragons that isn't going to happen.
Wizard just calls in dudes to beat it up. Or, if we're spamming offensive spells we take Spell Penetration, because SR is a pain, and then do as Reynard suggests and touch attack it to death.
Dragons should make sure to research the scintillating scales spell before attracting the ire of properly prepared wizards :)
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Dropped into a room with a red dragon?
Turn 1: Greater teleport the hell away. Then plan ahead and kill it in its sleep, preferably from another plane.
I mean, really.
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Hire my dragon killing archer ranger
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If it is an evil dragon, gate in high level solars and give a portion of the horde to charities. If it is a good dragon, gate in high level devils with the dragon's soul an a portion of the horde as payment. Then use disjunction on the anti magic zone while the dragon is busy. Then default to whichever style of spell suits you most.
What if you had time to prepare?
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What if you had time to prepare?
*demented chuckle* Then let the games begin.
If you get time to prepare, shouldn't the dragon?
They live for thousands of years, you think they're not going to have spells in place and contingencies so some pathetic mortal can't get the drop on them and kill them?
If you get time to prepare, shouldn't the dragon?
They live for thousands of years, you think they're not going to have spells in place and contingencies so some pathetic mortal can't get the drop on them and kill them?
K, like what? I'm trying to figure out how to think at this level.
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If you purposefully put your real body within 10 miles of the dragon, then you're already doing it wrong.
Similarly, if are able to attack the REAL dragon without him knowing well in advance, then he's doing it wrong.
i believe cheapy first pointed it out--mages duels shouldnt even need fighting. the two simply sit down over tea and compare their contingengies in place. with their 20+ int scores they could easily determine the winner and part on peaceful terms, no resouces wasted.
i believe cheapy first pointed it out--mages duels shouldnt even need fighting. the two simply sit down over tea and compare their contingengies in place. with their 20+ int scores they could easily determine the winner and part on peaceful terms, no resouces wasted.If you purposefully put your real body within 10 miles of the dragon, then you're already doing it wrong.
Similarly, if are able to attack the REAL dragon without him knowing well in advance, then he's doing it wrong.
Real battles aren't so easy to predict. Especially since they wouldn't negotiate honestly. For one, if they did negotiate honestly, that would mean revealing all of their defenses/friends/resources/etc which is really, really stupid. For another, that also assumes that they are willing to accept someone else winning.
Is a Good Wizard going to let the Evil Necromancer kill everyone in a country and raise them as undead just because of a discussion over tea? Is he going to let that Evil Necromancer go somewhere else and do the same thing? Not if it is remotely possible to prevent it, and even if he can't stop the Necromancer himself, he could waste enough of the Necromancer's resources to make it easier for someone else to kill him.
And frankly, when some overlooked bit of logic could change the entire outcome of the fight, there's no reason two people at opposite ends of the spectrum are going to calmly sort things out like that.
I meant more the general caster pissing contests (pardon the term) you see floating about, not necessarily as the end-all-be-all for it.
and obviously with the necromancer he'd hire a cleric, paladin, or gate in some archons/angels/big holies to deal with him and his undead scum.
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I'll send in my flying construct familiar with con damage touch attacks. First I'll cast antimagic field on it. While I do this, my familiar do a charge pounce full round attack with it's 8claws. If the dragon isn't dead yet (con score= 0) he might be Paralyzed by my familiars claws extraordinary effect (EX).
Idc what the dragon does on it's next turn, my familiar will finish him off in the first round, while I smoke a pipe.
Btw, my familiar got DR5/-
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Well a smart dragon (assuming it can go first) will cast antimagic on itself. Then its still a dragon and you can't do anything to it.
You better kill it in one turn, because you're magic wont work on round two.
wont work
Assuming you're a high level wizard, what would be the best methods of taking down a Dragon?
call in my tetori
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Hands down the best way to kill a dragon is to throw dust of choking and sneezing in its face then coup de grace it (over and over again if need be) with the Dastardly Finish feat.
I seriously doubt you will find a better one-two combo.
wont workWell a smart dragon (assuming it can go first) will cast antimagic on itself. Then its still a dragon and you can't do anything to it.
You better kill it in one turn, because you're magic wont work on round two.
What do you mean it wont work?
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What do you mean it wont work?wont workWell a smart dragon (assuming it can go first) will cast antimagic on itself. Then its still a dragon and you can't do anything to it.
You better kill it in one turn, because you're magic wont work on round two.
colossal is 30x30 (i think) antimagic field is a 10x10, that means (3dimensions) something like 17% would be negated by the antimagic field.
Antimagic Field"Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field."
Well they increased the size of antimagic field, it's now a 10ft radius. So it's a sphere with a diameter of 20ft. And I believe a dragon can squeeze himself into that space.
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Check out Beastmass: A challenge to Master Min-Maxers which is all about builds that can solo Shoggoth, a Balor, a Pit Fiend, an Ancient Gold Dragon, a Solar Angel, and the Tarrasque, all with just a single round of rest.
And yes, it can be done.
The Vacuum is a wizard build in there that specializes in 1-shotting these things, and there's a few other suggestions about how it might be done.
Find my fighter friend I've adventured with....offer him half the hoard and bull the crap out of him.
Sit back and watch the show.
Seriously thought, I'd timestop greater teleport out. If it had to be killed, Gate in something bigger and nastier. Or I could wake up the Tarrasque.
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Lets be honest, an great red wyrm is going to have his lair so magically warded and protected (having thousands of years to make sure he is safe) that we cannot likely do justice to how well protected it would be.
Heck, if I were the dragon I would probably have a greter demiplane of null magic with two portals. One portal into my main lair and one to an "escape" area somewhere outside and away, but relatively close. I would also have a simulacrum of myself (and depending on how you run simulacrum he could have the same spell casting power). I would also probably have clones of myself, with cloning facilities in more than one location. Not to mention, depending on how liberal the GM is you could conceiveably make the whole lair a permanent antimagic field. Filled with traps. Then there is the matter of the dragons stats in the book. They're wrong. Well...wrong isn't quite the right word. The stats there don't take into account the massive treasure horde the dragon has, and the huge myriad of magical items he should have access to. The dragon should be every bit as wealthly (if not wealthier) than the wizard trying to track him down. In short, a dragon played to the cunning of his age should every bit as intelligent as the wizard but with thousands of years of experience.
Hrm... 18th level blaster sorcerer (draconic fireballer):
35 Cha + greater spell focus + spell perfection + free heighten + magical lineage + dazing + greater metamagic rod of ice = DC 34 reflex save dazing icy fireball. Dragon needs to roll a 20.
varisian tattoo + spell specialization + spell perfection + greater spell penetration + orange ioun stone = +33 overcoming spell resistance. You need to not roll a 1.
Thats basically unblockable. fire a second heightened quickened dazing icy fireball to be sure. Now you have 9 rounds to blast it with polar rays, frozen orbs, dragon breath, more dazing icy heightened fireballs, etc, while it sits there dazed. A rod of spell piercing may speed things up.
Initiative: Dex uh +4, dueling cestus +4, greensting scorpion +4, reactionary +2, Improved initiative +4 = +18 to your rolls
Hire a first level halfling cleric with the law domain, reduce person on it, and tie it to your belt to give you 'a touch of law' in case you don't like rolling. I prefer to have the little guy rub my inner thigh.
You can just do it in a vaccum like this. You're already glazing over the hardest parts of beating the dragon. You're assuming you can find him, get to his lair, avoid his traps and magic, and that he isn't prepared to be fighting spell casters (which are arguably the most threatening things to him). You're also assuming the dragon wont get a surprise round on you. Which he probably will since you're in his lair.
It's easy to say "I trot out the most powerful spell I can which targets all his weakest points which should enable me to kill him without him being capable of fighting back", it should be near impossible to actually do.
In my mind there is really no way a single spell caster (or any single individual) to defeat a dragon if the dragon is played properly. Someone with a greater command of the magic in this games needs to design the most impenetrably well defended lair they can to protect from magical threats (and threats in general) and before you can encounter the drgaon you need to deal with that.
Also, lets just assume the dragon is in a antimagic field? Where does this tactic get you then bfobar?
Ugly combo indeed. How would most of your casters deal with vision issues within the smoke filled cavern? Locate his squares and True Strike with the Dust? Assuming our Wyrm has Contingencies against being "mentally incapacitated" how are you planning on avoiding a lava bath...
A caster who isn't prepared to deal with "vision issues" likely died long before he made it to an established dragon's lair so I see that as a moot point.
As for needing true strike, what makes you think it would even need an attack roll?
Technically, the GM can have contingencies against anything, so another moot point. The beauty about the dust is that not even ancient dragons are likely to expect being done in by it.
I'd also argue that such a contingency is a little too vague. Aren't they supposed to be clear? Furthermore, sneezing isn't mentally incapacitated. I'm sure the dragon can think just fine. If anything, it'd be more accurate to say he is physically incapacitated.
Luckily, there's no reason to allow cursed items in your game :)
Besides, the dust would apply to whoever cast it, as well. You're simply throwing dust, which spreads to everyone within 20 ft of whoever threw it; I don't know of a method of throwing dust that allows you to throw it directly at someone else while not suffering its effects yourself.
We kind of had this happen in a 3.5 game I was in. We were lower level but if brought up to a higher level I'm sure my abjuration wizard would have had some fun with it. Reciprocal Gyre on it if you have time to prepare (meaning it has time to prepare) if it has an antimagic field just dispel the field (10 abjurer/10 master specialist was an amazing counter speller with quickened spells)and last but not least use spells that drain away dexterity... they aren't exactly fast.
Hands down the best way to kill a dragon is to throw dust of choking and sneezing in its face then coup de grace it (over and over again if need be) with the Dastardly Finish feat.
I seriously doubt you will find a better one-two combo.
I love this one!!! Hilarity ensues!!!
The question I have is: how are you keeping yourself out of the area of the dust of choking and sneezing? If you cast it into the air, you will be within it's area of effect. If you have it in a little bag and throw the bag at someone then you are not casting it into the air, which strictly speaking means it doesn't work, since you have to cast it into the air.
On second thought, if I was the GM I probably wouldn't permit this on the grounds that cursed items backfire on the person using them; that's why they are considered "cursed." The curse would overcome the intended use, even if the user knows about the curse. In this case I would probably say that when you try to throw the bag the dust spills out and affects you. The curse refuses to be "cheated."
YMMV, but in a game I run the only way to use a cursed item as a weapon is to get your enemy to use it.
Now here's the question then:
How much would this item be worth in gp if it was a non-cursed item intended for use on an enemy? 5d4 rounds (average 12.5) stunned on a failed save?
BTW,
Just asking... how many simulacra does the dragon get?
I think a red dragon is a bit to arrogant to have clones and every contingeny the game can provide. They May have around 22 in the mental stats at great wyrm level. But they will be acting out of character if they have spend half the hoard on magic protection and stuff.
Just like Sauron never dreamt they would destroy the ring, the red great wyrms only really weakness would be its arrogance and Evil.
But killing it? Pehaps my gunslinger(musket Master) cohort, buffed and loaded up with named bullets, would have a sohoi level and like my level 20 divider have the look out feat.
That would be somthing like 6 attacks vs. Touch attacks and auto crit doing somthing like 4d12+108 if he dosent Roll 1:)
If i ditent have a gunslinger butler i would think of somthing different:)
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Unlike the others I will assume you are talking about a just-hatched dragon that is still covered in egg goo and hasn't figured out how to open its eyes yet. Accordingly, cast Enlarge on yourself and step on its head.
No one should ever be able to solo-kill a serious dragon. Ever. Because dragon. Even as a thought exercise, my mind rebels against it most fiercely.