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Dicussion thread for Goblinworks Blog: By the Time I Lose It, I'm Not Afraid
Goblin Squad Member
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Very cool, good info.
This bit: In PvP, any expendables the player has slotted have a chance to appear as additional loot if the implement they were slotted in was not threaded (the original character does not forget the expendable, it is merely copied into a loot item).
It seems like there is some potential of deliberate PvP to spread the knowledge of a expendable between a group of allies. I was thinking that that would probably not be a big deal, because of the alignment and rep consequences... But could it be spread under the aegis of a feud, back and forth between two normally allied companies? Or would expendables spread like wildfire through CE low rep communities? Just curious; it would depend on the "drop" P% for expendables, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. I'm hoping there are going to be some expendables out there that are very hard to find.
2. Sounds like one of the most important things for a PvPer will be having good boots.
3. I hope things are balanced so that taking a spell book as a fighter is worth considering, just not an obvious choice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very cool, good info.
This bit: In PvP, any expendables the player has slotted have a chance to appear as additional loot if the implement they were slotted in was not threaded (the original character does not forget the expendable, it is merely copied into a loot item).
It seems like there is some potential of deliberate PvP to spread the knowledge of a expendable between a group of allies. I was thinking that that would probably not be a big deal, because of the alignment and rep consequences... But could it be spread under the aegis of a feud, back and forth between two normally allied companies? Or would expendables spread like wildfire through CE low rep communities? Just curious; it would depend on the "drop" P% for expendables, of course.
If they are allies, it might be just easier to trade/train each other then PVP fights. If that option is available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tavern have become more useful. I also expect that they will have messageboard for quest.
NPC Implement really? I was thinking it will be related to the economy and settlement. Not war. But it is a exemple.
Question: does some until the end of combat spells could be use to initiate a combat?
At the end, twenty actions? It will take a lot of mastery to use all of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This means that a fully loaded character now has access to twenty actions at one time (thirty-two counting weapon and implement swapping), accessed via ten keys (plus a modifier key and a weapon swap key):
I think this is reasonable. Some pretty cool stuff on the post.
The critique: An Aristocrat's Banner/Warhorn, which contains party-buffing maneuvers and A Fighter's Trophy Charm, which contains self-buffing maneuvers aren't very Pathfinderish. I'm used to the fact that there is magic and then there is not and many games overlook this fact and make an unlimited amount of effects that resemble magic(have the same effect as some spells) for characters that don't traditionally use magic(like the fighter in pathfinder). That's a huge turn off for me. Magic is explained in Pathfinder with Gods and not by looking at some old picture of a deceased person in the middle of combat and getting an adrenaline rush... Such a rush is reserved for a barbarian... I'm sure games can be balanced in other ways...
And party buffs, don't get me started on those... I'm old school...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great update!
Among other things, I just noticed the importance this gives to food, meals, inns and cooking. It seems to be the only real way to regain Power while out and about, making good meals a cornerstone of longterm exploration and combat. Especially for casters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just a weapon swap key, does that mean Implement A is tied to Weapon A and you have to swap to Weapon B to access Implement B? You can't just keep one weapon active (with another in reserve) while switching between implements or vice versa?
Perhaps the modifier key (alt) modifies the weapon swap to become an implement swap. It would be in line with how no modifier is weapon and modifier is implement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Improvements to inns/taverns can make food return more Power when consumed in the building.
This sentence reminds me of Star Wars Galaxies, in which watching dancers or listening to musicians had a similar effect. In that game, local cantinas were great places to find other players. Cantinas in major cities were rarely empty, even during off-peak hours.
An incentive to hang out together between expeditions should help to foster a sense of community in PFO settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"This means that a fully loaded character now has access to twenty actions at one time (thirty-two counting weapon and implement swapping), accessed via ten keys (plus a modifier key and a weapon swap key)"
20+ sounds like a good amount of abilities to have at once. We wont have to just use the same 5 moves over and over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That a lot of stuff to remember.
Notices post above hers, notices that Azouth is wearing a green hat. Check calender to see what day it is mumbles to herself.
Runs up and steals Azouth's green hat. Runs over to Hobbs, "Hey look Azouth stole one of your patent green hats and he not gone through the initiation to be in the green hat squad.
Sits down and starts writing an initiation for the Green Hat Squad since she not sure there really is one yet.
FYI: Azouth is my adult son Joey.
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So I have two weapons (sets of specific combat skills), two implements (sets of specific utility/combat skills), two designated utility skills, two situational emergency abilities, a boot and glove action, and two item slots. I. Am. Excited.
What I love about this kind of system is how the player has freedom to customize and experiment far more than a traditional MMO would allow, while simultaneously allowing the developers to create interesting and balanced abilities. Instead of trying to balance based on a number of individual abilities, you have them all grouped with other specific abilities (like weapons) or in a specific category that all builds will have (situationals).
So for example...
Weapons: Sword/Shield + Bow
Implements: Trophy Charm (so I can hold my own Sword/Shield) + Aristocrat's Warhorn (so I can drop to a support role with a Bow if need be)
Situational: Maybe one for dodging so I can avoid AoEs, and another for temporarily tanking damage to support allies or survive long enough to get to safety
Boot and Glove: Maybe a boot ability to increase my speed (to pair with the prior situational or maybe to quickly drop from Sword/Shield offensive backwards to Bow supportive) and a glove to quickly heal myself or an ally to keep us in the fight
Items: A potion of cure wounds to keep me going, and maybe a wondrous item that temporarily stuns a target to combo with other abilities
Theorycrafting should be lots of fun if such a system is to be implemented, as should PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm... wondering how quickly/often weapon swapping would be allowed? One character concept I had in mind would have been something of a Mystic Theurge type of build. Limitations in swapping implements during combat would hinder that. But if they are able to be swapped with some form of cool-down (such as in guild wars 2) then the concept would be very viable.
I do not have a clear understanding of everything (had surgery monday and a bit under the influence of painkiller) but from what I am following it seems like a very deep and rich system. Looking forward to playing mix and match with all of these systems... after suitable levels of training, of course.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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It seems like there is some potential of deliberate PvP to spread the knowledge of a expendable between a group of allies.
Yeah, we're looking at this closely. We're trying to make sure it's not exploitable to create extra expendable training items for free, and we probably don't want sacrificing yourself to be the only way to train your friends. We may introduce some cost you can pay to scribe out items, rather than having to die to do it.
Question: does some until the end of combat spells could be use to initiate a combat?
Yes, in which case they're just on cooldown for the whole fight. Initiating the attack should put you into combat mode.
Scrolls were previously consumables (Oct 24, 2012 blog). Are they still consumables in addition to being used to learn new wizard spells? If so that would be in line with tabletop rules, but also potentially give access to 2 extra expendables per combat.
There is still the plan to have scrolls in the traditional tabletop sense, which go into your consumable/wondrous slots. The "scrolls" you get to learn Wizard spells will likely be called something different enough to avoid confusion. The consumable scrolls will probably be balanced against things like potions, alchemist's fire, etc. rather than spells, so may not be directly equivalent.
Perhaps the modifier key (alt) modifies the weapon swap to become an implement swap.
Correct.
how prevelant, if at all, will actions which consume no power be, based on role?
Expendables always consume Power. Too early to say on Situationals and Items, but I expect the power usage of them to be pretty consistent across roles. Power probably needs a better name; it's not Mana, it's long-term Stamina, and Fighters and Wizards should both use it at a pretty similar clip when they're breaking out their limited-use awesome.
An incentive to hang out together between expeditions should help to foster a sense of community in PFO settlements.
Yep. This is one of our hopes for taverns, and we're always looking for ways to encourage people to chill there for a minute and socialize in an organic way.
Obviously a minor thought, but just make sure we can re-keybind actions :D, otherwise, these sound like excellent additions GW Team
Allowing remapping is the plan. In particular, inside the office we're all fairly happy with 1-6 for attacks, but each of us seems to have a different preference between F1-F4, 7-0, or certain blocks of letters for use with the other four non-attack/implement options.
Limitations in swapping implements during combat would hinder that.
You can have two implements that you swap in combat. So it's totally possible to have a Spellbook and a Holy Symbol for a more Mystic Theurgic character (and we have some ideas for certain tradeoffs you can make to be able to support good levels of power for both spell types).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would think better materials can make a book that can hold more.
It should probably turn out that more powerful spell books will be like keywords on a weapon. The character has to be powerful enough to wield it to its full potential before it is any better than a lower power one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. I'm hoping there are going to be some expendables out there that are very hard to find.
/disagree
Rare loot is the bait themeparks use to keep you on the treadmill a little longer. I'd rather stay in PFO because of community investment, not because I haven't run out of time-sinks.I'd prefer that certain types of escalations tend to happen in some areas more than in others (these hills are mostly goblinoid country, that swamp is commonly reptilian country), and for different escalations to tend to have different expendables (lizardfolk druids usually drop bear's endurance, while hobgoblin clerics drop bull's strength more often). That provides for local rather than absolute rarity, which promotes travel & trade rather than mob-farming. Save the long, boring grinds for alignment recovery.
Heh, took me a minute, but I finally got the significance of the title :)
Not familiar with the song, and I'm sick so mostly I'm thinking about sinus pressure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know all you casters were happy to see this, but I woke my room-mate yelling with joy! all because this one little line:
"A Rogue's Rogue Kit, which contains poisons and other alchemical and mechanical trick"
That's right! if your giving people Expendable items, give the rogues poison! so happy to see this!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen:
Do you have any preliminary numbers on what spell damage will be like (base damage and damage factor)? Does spell damage scale with keywords in the wizard's role feature? How about non-caster weapon* base damage/damage factor?
*eg. wands/rods/staves
I'm just worried about the viability of wizards now that everyone gets a bunch of expendables.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe poison users will be more viable in PFO than it is in TT (if they're usable at all, then it's an improvement!).
I'm more curious in what other fun abilities rogues will get, in the form of "alchemical and mechanical tricks". Rogues in MMO's are usually the class that gets the more interesting utility items, like clones, traps, short distance blinks, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Allowing remapping is the plan. In particular, inside the office we're all fairly happy with 1-6 for attacks, but each of us seems to have a different preference between F1-F4, 7-0, or certain blocks of letters for use with the other four non-attack/implement options.
I hope we are also able to re-keybind the modifier key (alt). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have this one tiny worry:
The expendable system seems to give all classes "spellbook equivalents", which easily can turn into "everyone has their own special magic abilities", which eventually can turn into all characters feeling similar to play (ie feeling like casters).
Please someone reassure me that different roles will feel different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm more curious in what other fun abilities rogues will get, in the form of "alchemical and mechanical tricks". Rogues in MMO's are usually the class that gets the more interesting utility items, like clones, traps, short distance blinks, etc.
i guess smokebombs, snares and traps
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have this one tiny worry:
The expendable system seems to give all classes "spellbook equivalents", which easily can turn into "everyone has their own special magic abilities", which eventually can turn into all characters feeling similar to play (ie feeling like casters).
Please someone reassure me that different roles will feel different.
This maybe is the most pertinent question arising from streamlining spells to fit the system in use for all roles.
"In general, we expect spells to be better than maneuvers due to the other tradeoffs required to use them, but they're not so much better that a Fighter would rather use a Spellbook than a Trophy Charm, Banner/Warhorn, or Holdout Weapon. That is, you'll usually want to slot implements appropriate to your role for the best effect."
What are those "other trade-offs"? Also spells presumably will be non-physical damage and interact with the power-pool differently? Etc?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe poison users will be more viable in PFO than it is in TT (if they're usable at all, then it's an improvement!).
I'm more curious in what other fun abilities rogues will get, in the form of "alchemical and mechanical tricks". Rogues in MMO's are usually the class that gets the more interesting utility items, like clones, traps, short distance blinks, etc.
How about dissolving the trap on that lock with a powerful alchemical acid?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PvP, any expendables the player has slotted have a chance to appear as additional loot if the implement they were slotted in was not threaded (the original character does not forget the expendable, it is merely copied into a loot item).
I'm not sure I get this. When you die, even if you didn't thread the expendable, you don't lose it. So there is no expendable sink? They will just multiply until the market is flooded with them?
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PvP, any expendables the player has slotted have a chance to appear as additional loot if the implement they were slotted in was not threaded (the original character does not forget the expendable, it is merely copied into a loot item).I'm not sure I get this. When you die, even if you didn't thread the expendable, you don't lose it. So there is no expendable sink? They will just multiply until the market is flooded with them?
The item would be consumed by someone learning the expendable. I don't see that it would necessarily 'flood the market' more than anything coming from other faucets, like coin, crafting materials, crafted items...
"have a chance" could mean any probability greater than 0 and less than 1. It can be balanced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A couple of comments/concerns:
* while I understand why the streamlining has been done, it does seem to move us to the direction where every character plays more or less the same, some are just a little more effective in certain aspects of the game
* this would of course be great for balancing (and efficient use of development resources), but at the same time has the potential to render character development choices largely meaningless (I hope this is not the case and that this impression is only due to lack of visibility to the elements which make the character development system tick and allow for meaningful player choices)
* I hope that character development does not become a [insert whatever drop you are looking for] grind or a quest for Goblin Balls to avoid the grind (to get the coin needed to purchase what you want from the market)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In PvP, any expendables the player has slotted have a chance to appear as additional loot if the implement they were slotted in was not threaded (the original character does not forget the expendable, it is merely copied into a loot item).I'm not sure I get this. When you die, even if you didn't thread the expendable, you don't lose it. So there is no expendable sink? They will just multiply until the market is flooded with them?
The Expendable is not a piece of Gear, but rather a Skill. Implements are Gear that allow the use of Expendables. When you die, there's a chance that your Expendable will be dropped in scroll form so that someone else can learn it. This is independent of whether or not your Implement is threaded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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overall I dont mind this system. I do agree that GW needs to make sure that people dont make the same characters or that everyone uses x implement.
However I greatly 100% dislike spells as implements. It is taking away what makes a wizard a wizard and what makes a cleric a cleric. So Archmage goes I can cast spells, and my fighter goes, big deal i can do that too.
I feel that spellbooks should be like weapons allowing keywords and increased effects of spells. So a wizard could cast fireball, but with a spellbook they can use keywords and say do 12d6 damage instead of 10d6.
However perhaps a trade off for these implements could be put the feats/traits to unlock their abilities in the proper role. So lets take my fighter. I find me a spell book with a 4/3/2/1 spread of spells. However I cannot use the spellbook since i dont have the skill to use it.
I then go you know what i want to use it. So i go into the wizard role skill tree and select "spellbook 1st level spells" and train that and do the associated task. I now can use that spellbook, however i can only use the first level spells. Lets say that now i decide some of those second level spells look nice to have. All I have to do is train the skill "spell book 2nd level spells". HOWEVER because these are more powerful I have to have a deeper understanding of how they work. This requires more investment in the wizard role before I can train that skill. This means that by the time a person can use the high level spells, they are heavily invested in the wizard role.
This can allow people to use the very low level spells with relativity low investment, but means that you wont see very many fighters running around tossing 9th level spells about. At least you know if that fighter is tossing 9th level spells, he has invested heavily to do so, and has paid a cost (in say getting other fighter skills) for that ability.
Have this will all the implements. I do not want to see a lot of things dumbed down because any person can equip anything at any time with little thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@leperkhaun, what you have described as far as training to use higher levels spells may be part of the system; we don't know about prerequisites for training an expendable yet, or if there are any.
If you find an expendable which is a level 4 wizard spell, you can't just immediately start casting it. You have to have a spellbook which can accommodate level 4 spells, you have to spend experience to learn the level 4 spell, and then you have to equip the spellbook as an implement, which would be unwise if you only have 1 attack you can make with it. There are also other limitations to casting spells which haven't been stated yet, but I would expect that entails wearing lighter armor (at least, it should for arcane casters definitely), possibly being interruptible, and maybe other limitations. Though it wasn't stated, I would also expect the requirement to spend experience in learning an expendable would also entail prerequisites if the expendable is particularly powerful. However, these points are speculation on my part, so I'll put a couple questions for any dev that wants to answer:
1. What are the "other tradeoffs" that spell users have? Is it only the "once per combat" limitation, or are there others currently planned?
2. Will training expendables have prerequisites, or can anybody that finds it train it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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With all the talk of casting has any thought been given as to how sorcerers will differ from wizards?
Yes, there was a section of the blog that described how Wizards would find spells on pages and scrolls and then scribe those into spellbooks in a form of crafting, whereas Sorcerers would gain new spells by encountering those spells in the wild, and gain a chance to add them to their repertoire through practice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With all the talk of casting has any thought been given as to how sorcerers will differ from wizards?Yes, there was a section of the blog that described how Wizards would find spells on pages and scrolls and then scribe those into spellbooks in a form of crafting, whereas Sorcerers would gain new spells by encountering those spells in the wild, and having a chance to add them to their repertoire through practice.
It seems now that the primary way Wizards will gain spells is also finding them "in the wild", either off PvE mobs or from PvP. Wonder how Sorcerer's gonna differ.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems now that the primary way Wizards will gain spells is also finding them "in the wild", either off PvE mobs or from PvP. Wonder how Sorcerer's gonna differ.With all the talk of casting has any thought been given as to how sorcerers will differ from wizards?Yes, there was a section of the blog that described how Wizards would find spells on pages and scrolls and then scribe those into spellbooks in a form of crafting, whereas Sorcerers would gain new spells by encountering those spells in the wild, and having a chance to add them to their repertoire through practice.
So if we faced off in PvP, then if you were a Wizard and I died you might loot my spellbook (or pages from it) and scribe any new spell I had into your own spellbook. But if you were a sorcerer you might pick up on my Wizardly spells by experiencing and then reproducing their effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems now that the primary way Wizards will gain spells is also finding them "in the wild", either off PvE mobs or from PvP. Wonder how Sorcerer's gonna differ.
Sorcerers are going to find their stuff in the wild too, but it looks like they will be looking for a different kind of loot.
Expendables are treated as another type of learned feat. You don't learn expendables from trainers, instead finding them as loot.
In PvE, they drop from targets appropriate to the type of expendable. For example, Wizard spells drop from caster NPCs (as scrolls or book pages), Sorcerer spells drop from magical creatures with similar spell-like or supernatural abilities (as imbued remnants), and Fighter maneuvers drop from strong creatures (as trophies).
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I hope that the comments used to craft the items that provide the highest expendable abilities are found only as escalation rewards or other high-level PvE play.
I'm not sure what the numbers would look like to make trading those via staged PvP looting unattractive; to have that characteristic would require setting a fairly low ceiling on the value of the ability.