Tiny headaches

[Zathyr]

A situation arose at a game last night and I would like a little feedback or clarification.

Characters A and B are on either side of a tiny creature, t. We are all happily in our own squares.
A t B
Am I correct in thinking t is flanked? One of the people at the table said that since a tiny creature doesn't occupy a square it can't be flanked, which he probably saw at the start of this thread but the bulk of the thread seems to say there is no actual rule to that effect. I certainly couldn't find one.

Well then t moves into my square, provoking an attack of opportunity. My question at the game table that started all this was, for that aoo, is t flanked? If we can, let's just set aside the question of whether it could be flanked once it's in my square. In this case it couldn't be because the other player doesn't threaten my square. I seem to recall something in 3.5 saying the action that provokes an aoo isn't completed until after the aoo is resolved. If Pathfinder has a similar rule of thumb then, at the point of the aoo, t is still in the square between A and B and is thus still flanked, correct?

Hopefully this isn't a complicated question, but thanks in advance for any responses.

[Rynjin]

It is flanked. You are still both threatening it from opposite sides of the square, which is the trigger.

Pathfinder still follows the "An AoO triggers just before the triggering action" rule, so yes to your second question as well. You get the AoO before he moves from teh square.

[EldonG]

What triggered the aoo?

Agreed, it's flanked... but it's rare that a 5' move triggers.

[Zathyr]

It's my understanding that entering an opponent's square triggers an attack of opportunity even if it's just a 5-foot step. It's a special condition, not normal movement. I can't seem to find it again, but I saw a thread here that where folks said as much and offered house rules to include the "entering an opponent's space" as part of the general movement rules and thus avoidable with a 5-foot step, but that wasn't official. At least I don't think it was..

Edit: Ah, found the thread - some RAW vs. RAI debate about it I guess.

[mkenner]

Zathyr wrote:

It's my understanding that entering an opponent's square triggers an attack of opportunity even if it's just a 5-foot step. It's a special condition, not normal movement.

That's correct, page 195 of core book in the section 'Big and little creatures in combat'.

"They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent."

Quote:

I can't seem to find it again, but I saw a thread here that where folks said as much and offered house rules to include the "entering an opponent's space" as part of the general movement rules and thus avoidable with a 5-foot step, but that wasn't official. At least I don't think it was..

This is debatable.

The rules for 5' step explicitly state that it never triggers an attack of opportunity. However with exception based rule design, the specific overrides the general, thus the above quoted rule which states that it does provoke an AoO could be viewed as overriding the general rule of 5' steps.

So... I don't know. Maybe it's been handled in the errata or a FAQ.

[EldonG]

Yeah, I do believe that's correct. I'd forgotten that. Cool.

[Majuba]

I don't *like* the rule, but it is fairly clear re: Tiny entering a square triggering an attack of opportunity.

However, I think it would not be flanked. The reason is that this is the only instance of entering a square provoking an AoO (from the square's 'occupier'). Regular movement rules provoke when leaving a threatened square.

AoOs are resolved before the triggering action is completed (so you can actually reach someone moving out of your threatened area), but I don't think that would push the positioning back to the previous square in this case.

[EldonG]

Majuba wrote:

I don't *like* the rule, but it is fairly clear re: Tiny entering a square triggering an attack of opportunity.

However, I think it would not be flanked. The reason is that this is the only instance of entering a square provoking an AoO (from the square's 'occupier'). Regular movement rules provoke when leaving a threatened square.

AoOs are resolved before the triggering action is completed (so you can actually reach someone moving out of your threatened area), but I don't think that would push the positioning back to the previous square in this case.

While that may seem logical, any time you leave one, you enter another...they're semantically the same...and if that bothers you...most reach weapons only threaten a square away...not adjacent.

[Bizbag]

For the sake of this discussion, a creature is kind of in a quantum state of "both squares at once" when they provoke attacks by moving - if a creature is tripped, they fall down in their first square, but clearly they were exiting the square in the first place.

When a Tiny creature provokes by entering a square, it is leaving its first one simultaneously, and still occupies the original square until the AOO is resolved. However, the 5' shift may not provoke, only the action of entering the square.

Thus, i'd posit that the Tiny creature is flanked when the "receiving" creature makes its AOO, but only that creature may attack it - the Tiny has not provoked an attack from the second flanker.

[EldonG]

Bizbag wrote:

For the sake of this discussion, a creature is kind of in a quantum state of "both squares at once" when they provoke attacks by moving - if a creature is tripped, they fall down in their first square, but clearly they were exiting the square in the first place.

When a Tiny creature provokes by entering a square, it is leaving its first one simultaneously, and still occupies the original square until the AOO is resolved. However, the 5' shift may not provoke, only the action of entering the square.

Thus, i'd posit that the Tiny creature is flanked when the "receiving" creature makes its AOO, but only that creature may attack it - the Tiny has not provoked an attack from the second flanker.

That's my take on it.