familiars and the handy haversack debacle


Rules Questions


What would you say about a familiar diving or running into a handy haversack on his masters back on its own accord? Do you think this is viable?
Would it require the master to waste a full round action to place it into the haversack?
Would the familiar even go willingly into it?


Would a familiar be willing to go into an extra-dimensional space of safety willingly? Why wouldn't it? It's not an animal, it has intelligence within human range.


Often greater intelligence than a 'normal' human especially higher level or advanced familiars. Or why would it be any less willing than its master and his companions if that was the safest place to be?

Grand Lodge

The extradimensional space is closed and the familiar, not being the user of the haversack, can't get it to open. The master would have to open the haversack, most likely as a move action, and later get the familiar out before it suffocates. I agree, though, that a familiar could certainly decide to go inside without any sort of check.


The reasons/problems I see with this are the following:
1. The haversack is closed, with buckles. It requires a move action by the owner to retrieve anything out of it. It would make sense to require at least a move action to put something into it. No-one walks around with a backpack open, otherwise things will fall out. Which means if they are going to leave it open so that a familiar can get into/out of it; anytime he/she bends over or falls down, or even while riding a horse, it would stand to reason that anything inside the haversack could potentially fall out. The only familiar I'd say could easily do the buckles themselves would be the monkey, but then once inside, the haversack is now open until the master closes it.

2. The familiar is sentient and bound to the wizard, with communication and also providing benefits. If it's inside the haversack, it would be completely cut off from the wizard, unable to communicate with it as it's in an extra dimensional space, with limited air, and unable to get out on it's own.

3. I could see it as a safe place, however, If the magic item is destroyed or broken, the familiar could be irrevocably lost or destroyed.

4. The familiar is sentient, with feelings/emotions. It might not like the idea of being essentially caged, completely vulnerable and disconnected from his master.

5. The familiar has to be at least 5th level to communicate with the master, until then all you have is an emotional bond. How is the master supposed to communicate with the familiar where it is going, or where he wants it to go, or anything else? You can't even have the discussion with the familiar til 5th level.

6. I'm also seeing this as kind of a way to auto-deny the GM attacking the familiar. The alternative choice is a bonded item, which has to be worn, and could be stolen, broken, or destroyed.


Would gravity affect an extra dimensional space so that stuff would fall out?

For a move action the player could open, insert/retrieve, then close the sack. If the familiar jumped in and the player was basically opening and closing the sack should it still cost him a move action?

Can something in a haversack retrieve itself?


How about you just use a familiar satchel?


CrazyElf wrote:

What would you say about a familiar diving or running into a handy haversack on his masters back on its own accord? Do you think this is viable?

Would it require the master to waste a full round action to place it into the haversack?
Would the familiar even go willingly into it?

Depends.

If the familiar is reasonably able to open whatever keeps the haversack's pocket closed (if anything), then the familiar can certainly enter the pocket of its own accord, same as any other backpack. This will vary depending on the familiar. A snake, rat, or weasel will probably be able to dash under a button flap with no more effort than typical movement. An owl will have more trouble.

If the backpack uses zippers or some other tight mechanism, then the familiar had better have some kind of manipulators--either a monkey (possibly requiring training) or a familiar with some sort of spell or ability on it that grants it a hand or equivalent manipulator.

There are no details about the design of the haversack's pockets other than their capacity, apparent volume, and actual volume, so either the GM or the crafter is responsible for deciding these details.

Starglim wrote:
The extradimensional space is closed and the familiar, not being the user of the haversack, can't get it to open. The master would have to open the haversack, most likely as a move action, and later get the familiar out before it suffocates. I agree, though, that a familiar could certainly decide to go inside without any sort of check.

Do you have some rule citing that the haversack can only be opened by its "user"? That's news to me.


Claxon wrote:
How about you just use a familiar satchel?

Our group only uses Core & APG, so a familiar satchel wouldn't be available. But thank you for that information, I'll have to pass that by our GM.


There is nothing about only an owner can open the haversack. I can also see how the design of the haversack is very vague so it would be a GM decision as to whether or not a familiar would be able to open/slip into it. However, that actually brings up another point.

The haversack bags behave like bags of holding. Bags of holding can be punctured from inside or outside. There is a reference to putting a living creature inside a bag how long it would live, but you'd also have to protect the bag from the creatures talons/claws/teeth/etc. as they are sharp objects they could pierce the bag; thus destroying it and all items and creatures contained within.


I can see a curious familiar opening a Handy Haversack to see what's in it. They would go in. Now the problem... getting out.

see Bag of Holding.There you'll read,

RAW wrote:
If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate.

So an item cannot normally exit the bag, even under the effects of gravity (otherwise why mention having to turn it inside out?).

I would have to say that since there are no dimensions in the bag - what is there to grab onto to push yourself out?

So the wise familiar will back out once they sense it's really weird in there and they can't smell anything. The unwise familiar will get out his stopwatch and see if his master really loves him in 10 minutes or less...


CrazyElf wrote:
...but you'd also have to protect the bag from the creatures talons/claws/teeth/etc. as they are sharp objects they could pierce the bag; thus destroying it and all items and creatures contained within.

ahhh, this is where you are lucky. The items aren't destroyed, only lost forever. Presumably on the Ethereal plane.


The text for bag of holding does not state that you must turn the bag inside out to dump its contents. It only states what happens when you do turn the bag inside out. Upending an open bag of holding will dump the contents out just as well as upending a normal bag.

If there was nothing to grab onto inside the bag, there'd be nothing to puncture either, and the rule about puncturing the bag from the inside would be meaningless.

It's a bag that's larger on the inside. It's still a bag, even on the inside.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Interesting.

It wouldn't be "within 1 mile" while in an Extradimensional pocket.


blahpers wrote:

The text for bag of holding does not state that you must turn the bag inside out to dump its contents. It only states what happens when you do turn the bag inside out. Upending an open bag of holding will dump the contents out just as well as upending a normal bag.

If there was nothing to grab onto inside the bag, there'd be nothing to puncture either, and the rule about puncturing the bag from the inside would be meaningless.

It's a bag that's larger on the inside. It's still a bag, even on the inside.

I think you are making several assumptions. This topic falls within the GMs gray area.

To me nondimensional means exactly that, there are no dimensions, width, length etc. It never says it's bigger >bag< on the inside. It does say it holds X amount of weight and up to Y cubic feet of space. It could be a dodecahedron on the inside. Who's to say. With no dimensions how do you measure it?
In a Type 2 Bag of Holding, if I feed in a (weightless) rope of 1" diameter, how far till it hits the bottom? I'd say 70*12^3/(3.1415*(0.5)^2)=154011" or 12834.25ft!

This is not a normal bag, why would it be the same? It's magical! For me the key is that it never weighs more when you add mass to the bag. Things just become tokens in the bag. The bag cuts the connection to the prime universe(including gravity), the only way in or out is through the opening.

In a silly way, as gravity is (m1*m2)/r{distance between centers of mass}, distance goes to infinite and the Force of gravity to zero, that way it never ways more when you put stuff in... Viola! Now since gravity doesn't affect stuff in the bag, turning it upside down won't cause stuff to fallout.

Secondly, there ARE issues with people flying with bags of holding and dumping huge boulders down upon their foes. Having to get the item out of the bag makes it a tad dangerous.

Puncturing the bag is a holdover from the AD&D days. It just means put a sheath on the halberd before you stick it in the bag. The bigger issue is someone cutting your bag intentionally in combat on in a botched Pick Pocket attempt. You could also jump into your own bag and puncture it for a quick trip to the Ethereal plane.


Azothath wrote:
This topic falls within the GMs gray area.

I think an equally valid (and simpler) way to look at it is as a Secret Chest (which is the spell used to create it).

You create a chest (or sturdy bag) of the appropriate size and weight capacity, you magically link it to the bag and create the item. The chest vanishes to the ethereal plane (somewheres) and you can now access the chest (from a fixed point) through the bag. I'd rather use a chest noting the random pilferage visited upon chests by residents of the ethereal plane. I'll use the word "chest" to denote the chest/bag on the ethereal plane.

I don't see how turning the bag would affect the chest on the ethereal plane, only the angle of the access point on the prime material. If you reach into an upsidedown bag of holding your hand will still be on TOP of the chest on the ethereal plane (with gravity pulling down), so the items retain their positioning in the bag of holding as you left them, thus the rooting around to find an item.

Turning the bag inside out reveals the inside of the bag on the prime material(which is of a set size), ejects the contents of the chest out of the interplanar opening, and cuts the link to the now empty chest.


CrazyElf wrote:

What would you say about a familiar diving or running into a handy haversack on his masters back on its own accord? Do you think this is viable?

Would it require the master to waste a full round action to place it into the haversack?
Would the familiar even go willingly into it?

The familiar can decide its own actions, so it can go on its own accord.

As a short term safe place, this is viable.
The familiar is the only one acting, so no other actions are needed.
The familiar is [or should be] aware of its squishyness, so it knows there is temporary safety there.

CrazyElf wrote:

The reasons/problems I see with this are the following:

1. The haversack is closed, with buckles. It requires a move action by the owner to retrieve anything out of it. It would make sense to require at least a move action to put something into it. No-one walks around with a backpack open, otherwise things will fall out. Which means if they are going to leave it open so that a familiar can get into/out of it; anytime he/she bends over or falls down, or even while riding a horse, it would stand to reason that anything inside the haversack could potentially fall out. The only familiar I'd say could easily do the buckles themselves would be the monkey, but then once inside, the haversack is now open until the master closes it.

I have yet to see a flexible container closed with anything less than a seal (like a zipper) that a tiny creature could not get into. Yes a belt will close it, but not along the entire opening. I have personally retrieved stuff from a backpack by reaching into a "closed" opening by using the imperfect closure. It does not loose stuff when I fall because friction will hold it into place. [At least most of the time.] It is actually standard procedure to hold trail bars and candy this way.

CrazyElf wrote:
2. The familiar is sentient and bound to the wizard, with communication and also providing benefits. If it's inside the haversack, it would be completely cut off from the wizard, unable to communicate with it as it's in an extra dimensional space, with limited air, and unable to get out on it's own.

Agreed to all but being unable to get out. Put a mouse or snake into a backpack and close it, and I bet you it will get out just fine. Yes there is a time constraint, but it is tiny, not medium, so the available air will last longer. [Unless the RAW sais otherwise, as I did not check.]

CrazyElf wrote:
3. I could see it as a safe place, however, If the magic item is destroyed or broken, the familiar could be irrevocably lost or destroyed.

Depends on what happens when broken. I don't see any RAW for that beyond "lost forever".

CrazyElf wrote:
4. The familiar is sentient, with feelings/emotions. It might not like the idea of being essentially caged, completely vulnerable and disconnected from his master.

It might not like it, but it might like being in range of bad guys even less.

CrazyElf wrote:
5. The familiar has to be at least 5th level to communicate with the master, until then all you have is an emotional bond. How is the master supposed to communicate with the familiar where it is going, or where he wants it to go, or anything else? You can't even have the discussion with the familiar til 5th level.

Some familiar can speak from the get go. Raven, Parrot, and Thrush.

The spells Comprehend Languages, Speak with Animal, Share Language, and Tongues can all work.

CrazyElf wrote:
6. I'm also seeing this as kind of a way to auto-deny the GM attacking the familiar. The alternative choice is a bonded item, which has to be worn, and could be stolen, broken, or destroyed.

Any GM that attacks a familiar that has not made itself a target is a GM that is out to mess up the player. Hiding the familiar just means the GM needs to work harder.

If the familiar is used to attack via melee or delivering spells or by using a wand or item, is a familiar that has made itself a target. The best way to protect the familiar is to make it not a threat in combat. Enemies will attack threats over non-threats unless they are using psychological warfare or other terror tactics. They usually only do so if they have the upper hand. If they are struggling, then they attack those most hurting them.

Most familiars can look like normal animals, and thus be non-targets. It is only by acting as something special that brings them to the attention of the bad guys. Improved familiar can sometimes pull off the "harmless" act, but often are more durable in the first place.

Best "safe" used for a familiar, in my opinion, is for scouting and delivering spells to friendlies.

/cevah

Silver Crusade

James Risner wrote:

Interesting.

It wouldn't be "within 1 mile" while in an Extradimensional pocket.

This was the first thing I thought of as well. However, it would be within arm's reach because you could certainly reach into your bag and retrieve it.

So how is something within arm's reach but not within one mile at the same time?

Shadow Lodge

Ah, the joys of extradimensional spaces.


Azothath wrote:
blahpers wrote:

The text for bag of holding does not state that you must turn the bag inside out to dump its contents. It only states what happens when you do turn the bag inside out. Upending an open bag of holding will dump the contents out just as well as upending a normal bag.

If there was nothing to grab onto inside the bag, there'd be nothing to puncture either, and the rule about puncturing the bag from the inside would be meaningless.

It's a bag that's larger on the inside. It's still a bag, even on the inside.

I think you are making several assumptions. This topic falls within the GMs gray area.

No more than you. I agree that it's the GM's prerogative to decide this and that the rules don't go into detail.

In my games, the bag is just a bigger bag on the inside. That allows things like puncturing on the inside and gravity to make sense. I don't have a problem with PCs dropping boulders on enemies using such an item; it seems like a perfectly reasonable use for an item expensive enough to hold a boulder. You can already do this with ant haul and muleback cords anyway, and that's much cheaper.

I also don't treat extradimensional spaces as other planes unless the effect in question specifically states it. They're simply geometric anomalies on the same plane. The rules let me do this as a GM without fudging, as they don't go into much detail about such spaces.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
how is something within arm's reach but not within one mile at the same time?

Simple:

extradimensional

Shadow Lodge

Blahpers, one hole I must poke in your extradimensional argument:

Extradimensional spaces wrote:
These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension.

So they aren't geometric anomalies on the same plane, they exist outside the Material Plane.

As far as the boulder-drop thing, I personally would rule that if the boulder can't normally fit through the opening in the bag, then forcing it through in either direction would rupture the bag and ruin it forever. It is still a bag, not a birth canal.

As far as gravity, since it does call out that extradimensional spaces are not of this plane, then this plane's gravity probably don't affect the interior of the bag.

Regarding familiars, they have 100 rounds, then they die. The bag description doesn't make allowances for size of bag or size of living creature. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
jlighter wrote:


As far as the boulder-drop thing, I personally would rule that if the boulder can't normally fit through the opening in the bag, then forcing it through in either direction would rupture the bag and ruin it forever. It is still a bag, not a birth canal.

Stone Giant Doctor: "Congratulations Fred, It's a Bouncing Baby Boulder!"


jlighter wrote:
So they aren't geometric anomalies on the same plane, they exist outside the Material Plane.

Your quote says that the space doesn't exist in any dimension. It says nothing about planes.

Re: the boulder, just get an appropriately-shaped boulder (long in one dimension) so that it fits into the bag. : D

Re: familiars: So long as the bag or backpack is at least partially open, air exchange should occur.

Shadow Lodge

blahpers wrote:
jlighter wrote:
So they aren't geometric anomalies on the same plane, they exist outside the Material Plane.
Your quote says that the space doesn't exist in any dimension. It says nothing about planes.

True, except if you actually read up on what a Plane is, it is a "dimension of reality." Ergo, something that does not exist on any dimension exists outside the normal Multiverse Planar structure.

Looking at other spells, items, etc., dimension and Plane are used interchangeably. Notably, the Dimensional Anchor spell, which blocks extradimensional travel (like Gate, Shadow Walk, Ethereal Jaunt, etc.), and then references travel between the Planes instead.

Dimensional and Planar are essentially used interchangeably in the books.

Dark Archive

blahpers wrote:
jlighter wrote:
So they aren't geometric anomalies on the same plane, they exist outside the Material Plane.

Your quote says that the space doesn't exist in any dimension. It says nothing about planes.

Re: the boulder, just get an appropriately-shaped boulder (long in one dimension) so that it fits into the bag. : D

Re: familiars: So long as the bag or backpack is at least partially open, air exchange should occur.

Nothing in the bad of holding section states that the bag must be closed. The exact sentence is:

" If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate."


jlighter wrote:
blahpers wrote:
jlighter wrote:
So they aren't geometric anomalies on the same plane, they exist outside the Material Plane.
Your quote says that the space doesn't exist in any dimension. It says nothing about planes.
True, except if you actually read up on what a Plane is, it is a "dimension of reality."

Cite?

Quote:
Notably, the Dimensional Anchor spell, which blocks extradimensional travel (like Gate, Shadow Walk, Ethereal Jaunt, etc.), and then references travel between the Planes instead.

Not exactly. The dimensional anchor spell blocks all extradimensional travel, including things that don't involve planes at all. For example, it blocks teleport. The caster travels to another location in the same plane. The mechanism for this travel is left unclear except that dimensional anchor implies that it involves extradimensional travel. Since teleport disallows traveling to another plane, I would conclude that this extradimensional travel is within the same plane.

Having opened the door to more-than-three spatial dimensions in the same plane, I have no real reason to conclude that an extradimensional space is in a different plane unless the description of that space describes it as such.


Happler wrote:
blahpers wrote:
jlighter wrote:
So they aren't geometric anomalies on the same plane, they exist outside the Material Plane.

Your quote says that the space doesn't exist in any dimension. It says nothing about planes.

Re: the boulder, just get an appropriately-shaped boulder (long in one dimension) so that it fits into the bag. : D

Re: familiars: So long as the bag or backpack is at least partially open, air exchange should occur.

Nothing in the bad of holding section states that the bag must be closed. The exact sentence is:

" If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate."

Sorry, I prefer to read RAW in context. Nothing in the rules says that you can't hold a longsword by the blade and bash enemies with the pommel for slashing damage, but at some point you have to use your brain.

If the bag is open, there's no reason air cannot enter or exit it. It isn't like there's some reverse-permeable filter on the opening that allows objects but not gases.

Case in point: Under your interpretation, if you put a familiar in the bag, wait five minutes, then stuff 10 more familiars in the bag, the first one's lifespan does not change, nor does its presence affect the lifespans of the other ten familiars. Not many GMs would rule that way, and nearly all of them are probably PFS GMs who aren't allowed to use their brains.

Shadow Lodge

Dimensional Anchor wrote:

A green ray springs from your hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel. Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities. The spell also prevents the use of a gate or teleportation circle for the duration of the spell.

A dimensional anchor does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast, nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. Also, dimensional anchor does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell.

The fact that it bars extraplanar travel indicates that extraplanar is a type of extradimensional travel. My apologies if my meaning before was unclear, I was just using that as an example of something that says extradimensional and then very blatantly includes extraplanar as part of it. No form of travel is cited that is extradimensional without being extraplanar.

As far as the Planes are dimensions citation, the first two sentences of "The Planes" section under Environments:

The Planes wrote:
While endless adventure awaits out in the game—there are other worlds beyond these—other continents, other planets, other galaxies. Yet even beyond this existence of countless planets exist more worlds—entirely different dimensions of reality known as the planes of existence.

Individual Planes are also in multiple places referred to as dimensions themselves, and the only other thing that I've seen that may be pertinent is the definition given for Demiplanes:

Demiplanes wrote:
This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across. There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality, and while most are connected to the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane, some are cut off entirely from the transitive planes and can only be accessed by well-hidden portals or obscure magic spells.

The problem with that being that it is never defined what "function like planes" means.

Also, not to poke holes in arguments again, but Teleport is extraplanar travel.

Astral Planes wrote:
...Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fraction of a second when they teleport, or they can use it to travel between planes with spells like astral projection.

Shadow Lodge

And regarding familiars, I was mostly pointing out that the strict wording doesn't make any allowances. I do realize that brains have to come into play, but text is text. And in your example, the next 10 familiars wouldn't be able to survive 10 minutes. It's just as reasonable to rule that they are limited to the air that was present, as the text does say "up to" 10 minutes.

As far as the reverse-permeable filter, thing, there is clearly a filter across extradimensional barriers of some sort, otherwise spells would be able to pass outside a rope trick. They can't, so something is filtering something, even if air is being allowed to pass.

Yes, me being a nitpicker. I'm not actually invested in the familiar-in-the-bag scenario.


Happler wrote:

" If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate."

So just run a snorkle to the outside, or get bottled air.


I think a familiar can go into a handy haversack if it wants to. I guess it might be important to determine if it could get back out on its own. I'd probably say yes since you can enter or leave other dimensional spaces like Rope Trick freely. This seems like a potentially dangerous gambit if handy haversacks react to being pierced anything like bags of holding do.

As an aside, I usually give the handy haversack to the familiar and have it act kind of like a caddie.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
Not many GMs would rule that way, and nearly all of them are probably PFS GMs who aren't allowed to use their brains.

I can only believe that someone making a comment like that hasn't had the experience of judging PFS at store game days, or at conventions. We bloody well use our brains, perhaps in ways that people judging only their friends in comfortable home campaigns aren't often called upon to do.

PFS GMs don't have the luxury of knowing who they are game mastering for or what they're going to bring to the table. With a comment like that I'm going to have to assume that you've never had to do the juggling act of keeping some level of uniformity of PFS play, while still doing your best to ensure that the folks at the table have the opportunity to have an engaging good time.

If anything, judging PFS, especially at a convention, can keep someone from falling into a rut of predictability.


Uniformity is for video game. The game is supposed to have table variance and nonuniformity. Why would I want to do such a juggling act when I could instead put all of my energy into making sure my group has a good time regardless?

If you like GMing PFS, more power to you, and I'm glad someone likes to do it, but you can't deny that as a PFS GM you don't have the same level of agency as a singular GM. Even if you want to make a rules interpretation based on your own judgment, even if your players are in agreement with this rule interpretation, you simply can't do it if PFS already made a call (good or bad) on the subject. That's what I mean by not being allowed to "use your brain".

Don't get me wrong! It isn't badwrongfun to enjoy playing or GMing PFS. But it isn't really standard Pathfinder either when the GM is forced to relinquish his or her privileges and responsibilities to conform to some perceived need for table invariance.


Devilkiller wrote:
... This seems like a potentially dangerous gambit if handy haversacks react to being pierced anything like bags of holding do.

As Handy Haversacks reference Bags of Holding, all the stuff inside goes *poof!* if they get punctured.

The Exchange

Options maybe?
1. Necklace of Adaptation
2. Have undead (shadows) or elemental (air) familiars
3. Air bubble spell

I'm somewhat interested as I plan to have a pseudodragon in a few levels.


blahpers wrote:

In my games, the bag is just a bigger bag on the inside. That allows things like puncturing on the inside and gravity to make sense. I don't have a problem with PCs dropping boulders on enemies using such an item; it seems like a perfectly reasonable use for an item expensive enough to hold a boulder. You can already do this with ant haul and muleback cords anyway, and that's much cheaper.

I also don't treat extradimensional spaces as other planes unless the effect in question specifically states it. They're simply geometric anomalies on the same plane. The rules let me do this as a GM without fudging, as they don't go into much detail about such spaces.

on terminology; "geometric anomalies" is a buzzword, it doesn't have any meaning in gaming or common english. Did they use the term in Dr. Who?

From the game's perspective; extradimensional spaces, nondimensional spaces, planes, pocket dimensions and such are their own plane or dimension. I use the word plane as that is clearer than repeating the word dimension(s) which can have several meanings in this context. Examples of planes are the Prime Material, Ethereal, Astral, see The Great Beyond: A Guide to the Multiverse, by Todd Stewart by Paizo Publishing.

As such (extradimensional spaces) they are not in the Prime Material per se, but share some bordering area or gateway with it. So Secret Chest, Bag of Holding, and thus Handy Haversack hold their contents on or in some other plane than the prime material. The last two you can access through a gateway in the prime material. So I'd argue that the bag isn't bigger on the inside, it's somewhere else.

Ant Haul (APG, UC) and Muleback Cords (UE) aren't the same as a Bag of Holding (CRB). The first two will let you carry a little more (say STR 10 @ max 100# with the spell to STR 18 is maximum 300# and heavy load encumberance), compared to a Bag of Holding Type 1 hold 250# for 15#, or Type 2 holds 500# for 25# so light load encumberance. Encumberance effects your Fly speed, movement, and some items like Flying Carpets have weight limits. So cheaper but not the same, especially when flying.


Silvanus Talimah wrote:

Options maybe?

1. Necklace of Adaptation
2. Have undead (shadows) or elemental (air) familiars
3. Air bubble spell

I'm somewhat interested as I plan to have a pseudodragon in a few levels.

The classic to survive in an extradimensional space is;

1) Bottle of Air (CRB) $7250
2) Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone $18000
3) Filling the bag with water and cast Water Breathing (lol..)
4) Air Bubble (CstrLvl min duration)
5) Feign Death (no longer available)
6) cast gust of wind or summon an air elemental now and then
7) water with Pearl of the Sirines $15300
8) Necklace of Adaptation $9000
9) Gaseous Form (2*CstrLvl min duration)
...


I had a Shambling Mound I used to keep in my Portable Hole (he makes his own air) that I would Magic Jar, then stuff my body into my bunk in there, fold it up and shamble about, GRRRRR!

it's scary when a shambling mound starts combat by casting Lightningbolt on itself and you... then vampiric touch, enervation, ...


We need a pokeball! \0/


OK. I guess it all makes more sense to me now.
It was feeling more unbalanced in my mind than I guess it really was.
Thanks everyone!


HectorVivis wrote:
We need a pokeball! \0/

Carry Companion.

/cevah

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