Socially acceptable use of magic in PFS social settings?


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1/5

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With the social gathering becoming more common environment for PFS scenarios, I'd like to hear from John Compton about what are the conventions with regards to the use of spells/magic/abilities/animals in these events.

Let me narrow down the discussion. Gary Gygax placed D&D in medieval Europe. Originally, there were no cantrips, orisons, animal companions, or proliferation of magic that exists in Golarion. Magic Users did not gain spells with each level nor could one walk into K-Magic Mart and buy the +1 sword on a whim.

Golarian is drowning in magic by comparison to D&D when it began. Yet, the scenarios don't seem to reflect any social change or paradigm shifts that would naturally result when you have an Adept capable of casting Create Water...continuously.

Nor is there any fluff given to addressing the numerous methods that exist to detect efforts to deceive and disguise identity. Not once has my Pathfinder been subject to a Zone of Truth or True Seeing to confirm his identity or honesty. I was amazed that a Season 5 scenario actually subjected PC's to a Detect Evil before letting them in a secured location. Bravo.

Here are my specific concerns/questions:

1. In social environment, what level of spell use would be common?

2. With so many classes getting animal companions and familiars, how does the world view these creatures?

3. In commercial environments, what level of fraud detection would be common? How common is it for both sides to scan each other before agreeing to do business?

Any basic sociological examination of Golarian vs the magic that is readily accessible screams disconnect. I find it implausible that someone would be offended by Guidance being cast in a discussion when the person offended has no idea what was cast.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I can't help but wonder if most of the stuff you think you should be seeing but aren't is actually happening off-camera.

1/5

Off camera to the GM?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Why not?

I assume that in order to enter the Grand Lodge, cross the grounds, and meet with Aram Zey in a room containing the Hao Jin Tapestry, you probably had to go through some "airport security" of a magical nature. No one needs to spend table time on that (though some tables would enjoy it if they have the time!) and there's definitely no need to spend precious word count on it in scenarios.

1/5

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hrmph brmph the older I get the better I was drmph mrmph

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Jiggy wrote:

Why not?

I assume that in order to enter the Grand Lodge, cross the grounds, and meet with Aram Zey in a room containing the Hao Jin Tapestry, you probably had to go through some "airport security" of a magical nature. No one needs to spend table time on that (though some tables would enjoy it if they have the time!) and there's definitely no need to spend precious word count on it in scenarios.

I'm just saying...if mage hand searches me I'm gonna be grumpy...

I do, however agree that there are many things that happen "off camera" as it were in order to save time in a time constrained game. That doesn't mean the character can't perform such invasive searches...

1/5

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I thought this was going to be like 'it is not socially acceptable to use prestidigitation to color the paladin's unmentionables a bright red
or make their hair taste like ham to your animal companion'

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Jiggy wrote:

Why not?

I assume that in order to enter the Grand Lodge, cross the grounds, and meet with Aram Zey in a room containing the Hao Jin Tapestry, you probably had to go through some "airport security" of a magical nature. No one needs to spend table time on that (though some tables would enjoy it if they have the time!) and there's definitely no need to spend precious word count on it in scenarios.

This interests me, because since it isn't written down, players just don't expect it to happen. I continually get into situations where I want to cast detect magic on an NPC as a way of sizing them up, especially when they're a Pathfinder themselves. But the GM will often say "You just cast it right there while they're watching and everything?"

In my head, I think "Yes. Yes I am. Since half the people we play with can cast detect magic at will and do so whenever we walk into a room so that I expect that the majority of people in Absalom must have it cast on them at least once a day, YES. I do cast detect magic on that shadowy person I'm supposed to be talking to."

But I end up backing down rather than have my PC be sent to jail or get in a fight. Because apparently this doesn't happen, since NPC's never do it to us.

Seriously, with the level of magic at work in Golarion, I expect NSA style shenanigans to be at work. I almost believe that a Spellcraft check on detect magic or detect evil should be a DC 0 that even untrained folks can make. And rather than be offended, folks should just expect it to be the way the world works.

I can just imagine the Bank of Abadar where every single teller has access to both of those spells and every one of them uses them as much as possible, because it's better to be safe than sorry.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

As for social settings, presumably people are aware of how their own world works, just as we know how ours works. In the technology-soaked world I live in, if I'm at a charity gala and see someone speaking into their phone in a language I don't understand or typing something I can't see into a mobile device, I generally don't worry that they're telling their terrorist accomplices "the chicken is in the pot" or transmitting coordinates for an air strike. Likewise, when people who live in the magical world of Golarion see someone casting a spell that they don't recognize, they probably aren't expecting any explosions.

Of course, someone trained in Spellcraft who identifies a hostile spell would react just like someone who understood the phone command—which would probably start with telling other people who were otherwise going about their business without a care in the world.

At least, that's my take on it.

1/5

Arkos wrote:

This interests me, because since it isn't written down, players just don't expect it to happen. I continually get into situations where I want to cast detect magic on an NPC as a way of sizing them up, especially when they're a Pathfinder themselves. But the GM will often say "You just cast it right there while they're watching and everything?"

In my head, I think "Yes. Yes I am. Since half the people we play with can cast detect magic at will and do so whenever we walk into a room so that I expect that the majority of people in Absalom must have it cast on them at least once a day, YES. I do cast detect magic on that shadowy person I'm supposed to be talking to."

But I end up backing down rather than have my PC be sent to jail or get in a fight. Because apparently this doesn't happen, since NPC's never do it to us.

Seriously, with the level of magic at work in Golarion, I expect NSA style shenanigans to be at work. I almost believe that a Spellcraft check on detect magic or detect evil should be a DC 0 that even untrained folks can make. And rather than be offended, folks should just expect it to be the way the world works.

I can just imagine the Bank of Abadar where every single teller has access to both of those spells and every one of them uses them as much as possible, because it's better to be safe than sorry.

You and I are on the same page. There needs to be some baselines for what is th norm with regards to this stuff and which based on a world which has had spells at will for eons. Nobody in our world has any clue what it's like to really like to deal with the things that exist in Golarion.

How often have you talked to a city official not sure if he's under a dominate spell when he tells you no?

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

N N 959 wrote:
1. In social environment, what level of spell use would be common?

I feel like casting a cantrip should be about as rude as checking your phone during a conversation. We even have a cantrip that is just like checking your phone. Perfect analogy. And yes, it's rude. But it isn't call-the-authorities rude.

N N 959 wrote:
2. With so many classes getting animal companions and familiars, how does the world view these creatures?

I expect lots of signs that say "clean up after your so-called-intelligent animal friends!" I don't know. I mean, is seeing a dinosaur weird? Because we see loads of them in PFS and no one seems to be freaking out.

N N 959 wrote:
3. In commercial environments, what level of fraud detection would be common? How common is it for both sides to scan each other before agreeing to do business?

There's a good reason items like Gloves of Storing and Sheath of Bladestealth exist. And it isn't "just in case someone casts detect magic on me." It should be because they EXPECT someone to cast it, and they want to keep their weapons secret. Why wouldn't a magic weapon shop owner want to know about the weapons carried by his customers? Why wouldn't a cleric want to know if a mysterious stranger carries a necromantic aura? Since they CAN know, I don't see what's stopping them.

Unless all of Golarion is operating under a Wild West mentality (anyone could kill you at any time just for looking at them weird), I just don't see the issue.

If the person in a social situation has to make a save, well of course that's different.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Arkos wrote:
I can just imagine the Bank of Abadar where every single teller has access to both of those spells and every one of them uses them as much as possible, because it's better to be safe than sorry.

Plus detect chaos, probably. ;)

And yeah, I figure a town guard letting himself be scanned by detect magic and other simple divinations is equivalent of a real-life law enforcement officer showing their badge. Standard procedure for officer-civilian interactions.

1/5

Jiggy wrote:

Why not?

I assume that in order to enter the Grand Lodge, cross the grounds, and meet with Aram Zey in a room containing the Hao Jin Tapestry, you probably had to go through some "airport security" of a magical nature. No one needs to spend table time on that (though some tables would enjoy it if they have the time!) and there's definitely no need to spend precious word count on it in scenarios.

Why not? Because more than a few scenarios require some sort of infiltration and it's not always clear to what extent other guests have been searched or identities confirmed. I can think of one specific scenario where a social setting is infiltrated. But as a PC, I have no idea how the guests are being monitored other than with eyeballs.

My real goal here is not to discuss VC security, but for PFS to weigh in on spell norms in social and commercial encounters. This is a world filled with deception lies, and magic. There needs to be some RAW about how society is allowed to protect itself and expose these things.

4/5

The Guide to Absalom book told me that casting invisibility is massively illegal in Absalom, punishable extremely harshly. We could use sources like that one if we wanted to answer that question.

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Jiggy wrote:
And yeah, I figure a town guard letting himself be scanned by detect magic and other simple divinations is equivalent of a real-life law enforcement officer showing their badge. Standard procedure for officer-civilian interactions.

Oooh, yeah! It should be part of the routine.

Here's what I'd hope for. When a PC casts detect magic on an NPC, even if that NPC is momentarily taken aback, the PC should just be able to say "Oh, I'm sorry. Look, it was just detect magic. No big deal." And it would be, and everyone would move on.

I like this baseline idea. What is the routine in a city like Absalom. Or for guard stations into Kyonin. Or just for a caravan being approached by a traveling merchant. Or for four Pathfinders meeting up with a shadowy contact in the Puddles.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

I've got the same questions here. In games I run, I lean the other way and consider that a detect magic here or there is no real issue - NPCs generally don't care if a player does a harmless detect magic on them.

But I've also been in that situation where the GM perks up and considers it near-hostile like I've dropped my pants in front of them.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

N N 959 wrote:
2. With so many classes getting animal companions and familiars, how does the world view these creatures?

I don't think anyone would bat an eye at a familiar, unless there's an alignment issue (bringing an imp to the Dawnflower Potluck) or it's particularly exotic/interesting/hazardous.

As for animal companions, I imagine that there's sort of a sliding scale: the more urban/upscale the area (and therefore the further you are from the preferred locales of *most* druids and rangers), the more out of place the AniComp will be. Of course, this will also vary based on the size/rarity of the companion. Folks at the dinner party might think it's neat that the ranger brought his falcon and ask to see it fetch a spoon or something, but the tiger's going to be far less welcome outside of rural communities.

Or such is my speculation. :)

1/5

Mark Seifter wrote:
The Guide to Absalom book told me that casting invisibility is massively illegal in Absalom, punishable extremely harshly. We could use sources like that one if we wanted to answer that question.

Awesome. I've never seen that.

Is there more stuff like this? Maybe someone who is knowledgeable on these things can start a FAQ on RAW rules about spell use.

Of course the problem is if someone does it, how does the GM deal with it? But that is a question for another thread. Right now, I'd just like to see what is RAW for the settings.

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Mark Seifter wrote:
The Guide to Absalom book told me that casting invisibility is massively illegal in Absalom, punishable extremely harshly. We could use sources like that one if we wanted to answer that question.

I'll have to read up on that one! How do they notice? Are there lanterns of see invisibility set up near guard stations? Does the City Watch hire clerics of Abadar (which they certainly do based on the trait!) in order to have them wander around with invisibility purge active? Do they search spellbooks of suspicious mages and tear out the page titled Invisibility?

I'm trying not to turn Absalom into a police state, but it would just be so easy!

3/5

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Mark Seifter wrote:
The Guide to Absalom book told me that casting invisibility is massively illegal in Absalom, punishable extremely harshly. We could use sources like that one if we wanted to answer that question.

Yeah, this is a question to be asked of the setting. Are there any other insights into how magic fits in Golarion's various cultures scattered throughout the sourcebooks?

If there are, it would be nice to see them placed in the Guide, or at least in the scenarios.

I keep thinking back to that one time my PC sat down to tea at a formal event with a paladin in full-plate, a barbarian with multiple reach weapons strapped to her back while at the dinner table, a druid who shed his armor out of respect to the host, and two synthesists in full power armor. The socially-acceptable use of magic question goes hand-in-hand with the socially-acceptable carrying of very large weapons (even loaded guns!) and mighty animal companions.

It would be nice to have some guidance on this issue.

-Matt

1/5

sounds like your group were not tea drinkers

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Even if it's not illegal, I imagine an NPC would certainly feel violated if they were introducing themselves to a group of Pathfinders and the wizard held up his hand and started concentrating a detect magic. "Just hold that thought, 'friend,' just making sure you aren't lying to us... Good, everything checks out. What do you need tonight, Drangle Dreng?"

Where's the trust? It's like a mafia movie where before anyone starts talking, they all whip out their bug detectors and keep their trigger finger ready. Or when you are in a social setting and make some claim -- that Die Hard came out in 1988, for example -- and everyone whips out smart phones to double check. It just comes off as rude.

Anyway, here's the relevant text from the 3.5 splat book, Guide to Absalom, that Mark mentioned.

Quote:

Some spells have been outlawed in Absalom, and casting them is itself an illegal act. This includes spells that do nothing but make a target harder to detect (including all invisibility spells and spells like misdirection that conceal facts about the true nature of a target, but not spells that conceal thoughts or desires).

These spells have been determined to have no legitimate defensive purpose, and thus can only be used to commit crimes. On the other hand, spells which make a target think well of the caster (such as charm person) are seen as better defensive options than those that deal damage, and are generally treated in the same way as weapons—legal to use in self-defense or for the general good of the city. (There are exceptions to the legality of charm spells, including love-inducing spells which are treated as criminal acts if used on unwilling targets.)

Under Absalom law all spells are considered legal until specifically outlawed, though a varlokkur may decide a new or variant spell is “essentially identical” to an already outlawed spell. The legality of specific spells is announced at a Spell Fete once a year.

So while casting detect ___ all the time is legal in Absalom, I imagine a lot of people would see it as rude, and as a GM I would probably give players a slight circumstance penalty on various social checks with 'scanned NPCs' if they abused such spells.

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Walter Sheppard wrote:
So while casting detect ___ all the time is legal in Absalom, I imagine a lot of people would see it as rude, and as a GM I would probably give players a slight circumstance penalty on various social checks with 'scanned NPCs' if they abused such spells.

I like that as a baseline. What I personally just can't see is when those NPCs are shocked, offended, outraged, and suddenly rolling initiative. Magic is just too prevalent for me to see that happening.

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Arkos wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
So while casting detect ___ all the time is legal in Absalom, I imagine a lot of people would see it as rude, and as a GM I would probably give players a slight circumstance penalty on various social checks with 'scanned NPCs' if they abused such spells.
I like that as a baseline. What I personally just can't see is when those NPCs are shocked, offended, outraged, and suddenly rolling initiative. Magic is just too prevalent for me to see that happening.

Yeah, I'm not going to sucker punch they guy who argues that Die Hard came out in 1991 and starts using his smart phone to prove me wrong.

I'd reserve rolling initiative for when he starts saying that it wasn't one of the best Christmas movies ever.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yeah, I could see minor divinations as social equivalents to fact-checking or asking for ID, with the offense potential varying based on the situation.

For instance, in entirely social situations, it could be rude.

Scanning a town guard member before agreeing to get into their vehicle should be standard procedure, just like expecting to be shown a badge.

Scanning someone who swears they're old enough should be expected and common. (Scanning someone who's obviously old enough could even be a compliment!)

That seems pretty reasonable to me.

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N N 959 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Why not?

I assume that in order to enter the Grand Lodge, cross the grounds, and meet with Aram Zey in a room containing the Hao Jin Tapestry, you probably had to go through some "airport security" of a magical nature. No one needs to spend table time on that (though some tables would enjoy it if they have the time!) and there's definitely no need to spend precious word count on it in scenarios.

Why not? Because more than a few scenarios require some sort of infiltration and it's not always clear to what extent other guests have been searched or identities confirmed. I can think of one specific scenario where a social setting is infiltrated. But as a PC, I have no idea how the guests are being monitored other than with eyeballs.

My real goal here is not to discuss VC security, but for PFS to weigh in on spell norms in social and commercial encounters. This is a world filled with deception lies, and magic. There needs to be some RAW about how society is allowed to protect itself and expose these things.

This conversation, plus watching lots of episodes of "Leverage" on Netflix lately, makes me want SO BAD to have a free-form heist scenario. Have the VC lay out the known defenses of some target (such as traps, guards, divination magic, locks, etc.), and let the PCs puzzle out how to bypass it all. It could be like Bonekeep for puzzles.

1/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Where's the trust?

I've been meaning to ask the TSA staff that exact question next time I board a plane.

In our world, I'm pretty certain you can't cast Alter Self, nor are you a Kitsune. And depending on what social circles we are talking about, I am fairly confident you aren't a demon in disguise. If I'm some high ranking official, then I know you've been searched, wanded, and background checked before we ever sit down at the table.

If you are a business in Golarion, there isn't a host of government organizations working behind the scene to make sure you are legit. I can't look up your UBI# to make sure you are licensed or check out Yelp to see what people say about you.

To put it another way, trust is earned. And if I had a job equivalent to what Pathfinders do in this world, I wouldn't be trusting anyone. In fact, I have a boon that says I don't even trust fellow Pathfinders. ;)

Quote:
Or when you are in a social setting and make some claim -- that Die Hard came out in 1988, for example -- and everyone whips out smart phones to double check. It just comes off as rude.

I think that really depends on what social circles one travels in, doesn't it? While you may consider it rude, it may be common place among technophiles.

And no, I would not be offended by every single NPC or PC Wizard scanning my character to determine my alignment the first time we met and maybe a few times when he or she thought my guard was down.

3/5

RainyDayNinja wrote:
This conversation, plus watching lots of episodes of "Leverage" on Netflix lately, makes me want SO BAD to have a free-form heist scenario.

That would be so great, especially if the expectation was to have zero combat!

Speaking of, the open nature of Among the Living means that I have run it as a half-heist twice now.

-Matt

1/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Yeah, I'm not going to sucker punch they guy who argues that Die Hard came out in 1991 and starts using his smart phone to prove me wrong.

I only do that when the GM tells me I can't Take 10 out of combat.

Dark Archive 4/5

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You have to remember as well that a NPC cannot tell what spell you are casting on him as the DC is 15+spell level which means cantrips are DC15 and require you to be trained in spellcraft to even attempt.

Which means from the NPC's perspective, he walks in the room and suddenly the robed guy starts casting a spell, what could it be? sure it could be as harmless as detect magic, but it could also be dominate person, or any number of other harmful spells and as such it could be initiative time (especially in a case where the NPC has something to hide) as I could tell you I would not take it well if someone just started casting in front of me without even telling me what it was (so I could have a sense motive check to see if I think its safe).

So actually I dont think magic use in social situations is anywhere near as common as you believe.

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N N 959 wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Where's the trust?
I've been meaning to ask the TSA staff that exact question next time I board a plane.

I wouldn't equate a Pathfinder to a TSA staffer. Pathfinder's don't have any authority over non-Pathfinders. Unlike the relationship between TSA employees and airport patrons.

Most of the detecting I see at tables comes from the PCs questioning a shop owner or random NPC. So I'd say it's more like a member of a private club knocking on your door, and then patting you down or sticking you through an x-ray machine before they start questioning you. Why would you want to talk to them afterwards?

Quote:
Quote:
Or when you are in a social setting and make some claim -- that Die Hard came out in 1988, for example -- and everyone whips out smart phones to double check. It just comes off as rude.
I think that really depends on what social circles one travels in, doesn't it? While you may consider it rude, it may be common place among technophiles.

Maybe technophiles consider it a social practice. I think I'm fairly tech savvy and I still don't think it's very polite. But that could just be me.

Moving away from the technical bit -- I think that there's just a level of disrespect from people that perpetually second guess everyone. Regardless of how they do it. Whenever I'm at a party with the "I need to be right all the time" people, you can bet I start talking to someone else.

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Caderyn wrote:

You have to remember as well that a NPC cannot tell what spell you are casting on him as the DC is 15+spell level which means cantrips are DC15 and require you to be trained in spellcraft to even attempt.

Which means from the NPC's perspective, he walks in the room and suddenly the robed guy starts casting a spell, what could it be? sure it could be as harmless as detect magic, but it could also be dominate person, or any number of other harmful spells and as such it could be initiative time (especially in a case where the NPC has something to hide) as I could tell you I would not take it well if someone just started casting in front of me without even telling me what it was (so I could have a sense motive check to see if I think its safe).

So actually I dont think magic use in social situations is anywhere near as common as you believe.

Well, I'm no conductor, but I can usually tell when a conductor is telling the brass section in his symphony to belt something out aggressively because I've seen those gestures a few times before. And I can recognize a few letters in sign language, though I don't speak it, because I see them used often. And I even know the somatic component to cast Burning Hands, though I clearly can't use magic. At what point can I tell the difference between an every day occurrence and magic I've never seen before?

This gets into the question of how many times I need to use knowledge to know what a goblin can do, which is unfortunately a similar conversation. Even if my friendly wizard shows me the gestures, I need Spellcraft to retain it and still need to succeed at my check every time to recognize it again. An unfortunate part of the organized play environment.

Unless it is SO prevalent that it is common knowledge, which is definitely a focus of this discussion, for me at least.

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RainyDayNinja wrote:
This conversation, plus watching lots of episodes of "Leverage" on Netflix lately, makes me want SO BAD to have a free-form heist scenario. Have the VC lay out the known defenses of some target (such as traps, guards, divination magic, locks, etc.), and let the PCs puzzle out how to bypass it all. It could be like Bonekeep for puzzles.

My only worry would be how much system mastery one would need to complete this scenario. Other than that, it sounds awesome!

3/5

Arkos wrote:
Well, I'm no conductor, but I can usually tell when a conductor is telling the brass section in his symphony to belt something out aggressively because I've seen those gestures a few times before. And I can recognize a few letters in sign language, though I don't speak it, because I see them used often. And I even know the somatic component to cast Burning Hands, though I clearly can't use magic. At what point can I tell the difference between an every day occurrence and magic I've never seen before?

I'd say this issue has more to do with how Knowledge checks work in Pathfinder. It's always a d20 roll, and there are no mechanics for recognition of specific things already experienced. PCs either learn about every aspect of a topic at once (by taking a rank) or their knowledge of a topic doesn't change at all (by not taking a rank). Oh, and remembering what a spell looks like somehow takes up so much of a PC's time and mental energy that there is something else that the PC can't get better at, as PCs only get so many skill points per level.

That being said, I'd also say that I believe, in a setting which has prevalent magic use, that Spellcraft DCs could be set at DC 10 + 2x spell level instead of DC 15 + spell level. Spellcraft could be used untrained up to DC 10, as well. That would make cantrips fall under the DC 10 "common knowledge" threshold.

Oh, and I also think that Spellcraft and Knowledge(arcana) should be merged, but now we're getting too far off.

Etiquette, law, culture... in the end, these are the sorts of topics which a good setting book would cover. Besides the paragraph from the Guide to Absalom, is there anything else in the setting material out there?

-Matt

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Arkos wrote:

In my head, I think "Yes. Yes I am. Since half the people we play with can cast detect magic at will and do so whenever we walk into a room so that I expect that the majority of people in Absalom must have it cast on them at least once a day, YES. I do cast detect magic on that shadowy person I'm supposed to be talking to."

But I end up backing down rather than have my PC be sent to jail or get in a fight. Because apparently this doesn't happen, since NPC's never do it to us.

I'm thinking that since most people can't identify spells before their effects hit that suddenly spouting a bunch of arcane gibberish is the social equivalent of reaching very quickly into a violin case.

Dark Archive 4/5

Arkos wrote:


This gets into the question of how many times I need to use knowledge to know what a goblin can do, which is unfortunately a similar conversation. Even if my friendly wizard shows me the gestures, I need Spellcraft to retain it and still need to succeed at my check every time to recognize it again. An unfortunate part of the organized play environment.

Unless it is SO prevalent that it is common knowledge, which is definitely a focus of this discussion, for me at least.

The problem being we are limited by the mechanics in this case as the NPC is most certainly unaware of the spell being cast, which can of course be a good thing (I have charmed/dominated people by using bluff to make them think it was merely a 'prestidigitation spell to remove some water stains from my cloak')

Also you are making the assumption that all wizards use the same gestures for the same spells, this is a big leap as if this was the case all wizards would auto succeed on spellcraft checks for spells they had prepared.

Allowing people to cast spells around you is a big risk in Golarion, and not one I think any pathfinder would subject themselves to.

Imagine your PC enters a room while heading to a party and the first thing he hears is a guy casting a spell what would your first reaction be?

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This also raises the question of how it is viewed whenever someone casts enhanced diplomacy or tap inner beauty before beginning to speak to you.

"What are you doing?"
"Oh, I'm just making it so that I can persuade you more easily. So, you know, nothing you need to be concerned about."

Grand Lodge 4/5

Detect Magic is usually verbal and somatic. The Paladin gets around this by having Detect Evil as a spell-like ability.
Magic items are usually the most valuable items a person can hope to own.
I just can't see it being socially acceptable to run around to people cast a spell on them to find out what they're packing. I guess it'd all depend on the Spellcraft identification and the danger of the situation.
I am amazed a wizard hasn't created a long-term duration spell to mentally punish anyone who dares a Detect spell on the caster. Misdirection is great and everything, but it really doesn't punish a nosy parker like it should.
If the PCs start freaking out when a caster NPC starts waving his hands, muttering and focusing on the PCs with an unknown spell, why wouldn't the NPCs? It's another area of the game where the PCs seem to be in a totally different world to the NPCs, even if the NPCs are adventurers too.

I'd love a blog post about detection spells and social etiquette.

3/5

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Dieben wrote:

This also raises the question of how it is viewed whenever someone casts enhanced diplomacy or tap inner beauty before beginning to speak to you.

"What are you doing?"
"Oh, I'm just making it so that I can persuade you more easily. So, you know, nothing you need to be concerned about."

Good point! I saw that sort of thing happen all the time!

Example:
Player: "I cast guidance on Jane's character while she's talking."

-Matt

4/5

I'm pretty sure every time I tell players that an NPC is casting a spell and the PCs fail to identify, they immediately draw their weapons or start casting their own. FWIW...

Shadow Lodge 3/5

But that's because your PCs are usually expecting battle due to the nature of the game. Are the NPCs expecting it as well?

The Exchange 3/5

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"An interesting topic of conversation. As one whom you might say has. . .vested interest on this matter, I shall say only this: I put forth a strong effort to avoid casting spells upon other sentient beings without their permission, unless my best judgement leads me to believe that failure to do so would cause me to become imperiled or result in other catastrophe.

That much said, I have spent untold years, effort, and personal energy towards mastery of my craft at the experience of a great many other aspects of my life. I can, and will, cast upon my own person, at any time, for any reason, any number of spells which please me. Fact be known, the sheer litany of spells I generally have active upon my person at any given time is sufficient to dull the luminescence of some entire cities.

I do, however, strive to be an appreciative guest and a courteous host. When circumstance truly warrant, I will consider relaxing my active magics in favor of elaborate, and numerous, contingency plans. I can forge planes with my knowledge, and unmake most any foe with a simple wish. . .but such is poor excuse to be disrespectful to your neighbors."

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Great thread!

I have always differentiated between public and private casting;

Private casting (i.e. mage armour) is usually cast first thing in the morning as part of the mornings rituals. It's a residual effect and shouldn't be an issue.

Public casting is a bit trickier; for example a cleric casting purify food and drink[i] might be like saying 'grace' before a meal.

At some diplomatic events I find it hard to think what people wouldn't be wearing illusions and glamour's - [i]if they could afford to.

I could a caster asking for permission to cast prestidigitation on the party before meeting a king but certainly wouldn't be casting a spell in front of the king without express permission. It's not just rude but tantamount to suicide.

On occasion I have PC's excuse themselves to their room, cast detect magic and return to the common room whilst concentrating to check for aura's.

On the other foot; If an NPC started casting a spell in front of most parties he/she had better have a good reason because that tends to be the moment when 'it' hits the fan...

1/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Where's the trust?
I've been meaning to ask the TSA staff that exact question next time I board a plane.
I wouldn't equate a Pathfinder to a TSA staffer.

It was meant as a joke, not as a valid response.

Quote:
Most of the detecting I see at tables comes from the PCs questioning a shop owner or random NPC. *** Why would you want to talk to them afterwards?

Because I'm a shop owner and I've got nothing to hide. Because letting whomever know I'm trustworthy increases the likelihood I'll get more business.

I think the real concern that others have brought up about spell casting is not that my veracity is questioned, but that I'll be victimized by some spell I can't recognized. So I disagree that a shop owner is going to find it rude. I do agree that they'll find it dangerous.

Quote:
Whenever I'm at a party with the "I need to be right all the time" people, you can bet I start talking to someone else.

But if you fail your Peek at Screen skill check, you have no idea what they are looking up. Maybe they are checking a text message or checking the time or the weather. And if I stated some fact that was contrary to someone's understanding, I wouldn't have a problem if someone who didn't know me looked it up. If I'm correct, than it must makes me look smarter. If I'm wrong, then I'd actually want them to tell me so I don't continue to spread misinformation and look dumb.

I think the problem in a lot of these situations is the GM is using OOC information to decide how the NPC reacts. Bard PC starts casting Mending in a situation the GM knows is not going to be hostile, the GM ignores it. Sorcerer starts casting [Fireball on NPC's intending an ambush, suddenly the NPC has an issue with the act before it's complete.

If we can have some baseline norms, then GMs can treat the situations consistently and we can reduce the GM metagaming.

EDIT:
But going back to the TSA reference. You know, there was a lot of trust by the FAA until some planes got hijacked and 9/11 happened. Now there is no trust. How many Grandmaster Torches have to come and go through the Society before they start beefing up their security?

1/5

Caderyn wrote:

You have to remember as well that a NPC cannot tell what spell you are casting on him as the DC is 15+spell level which means cantrips are DC15 and require you to be trained in spellcraft to even attempt.

Which means from the NPC's perspective, he walks in the room and suddenly the robed guy starts casting a spell, what could it be? sure it could be as harmless as detect magic, but it could also be dominate person, or any number of other harmful spells and as such it could be initiative time (especially in a case where the NPC has something to hide) as I could tell you I would not take it well if someone just started casting in front of me without even telling me what it was (so I could have a sense motive check to see if I think its safe).

So actually I dont think magic use in social situations is anywhere near as common as you believe.

I think you bring up valid points.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Caderyn wrote:

You have to remember as well that a NPC cannot tell what spell you are casting on him as the DC is 15+spell level which means cantrips are DC15 and require you to be trained in spellcraft to even attempt.

Which means from the NPC's perspective, he walks in the room and suddenly the robed guy starts casting a spell, what could it be? sure it could be as harmless as detect magic, but it could also be dominate person, or any number of other harmful spells and as such it could be initiative time (especially in a case where the NPC has something to hide) as I could tell you I would not take it well if someone just started casting in front of me without even telling me what it was (so I could have a sense motive check to see if I think its safe).

So actually I dont think magic use in social situations is anywhere near as common as you believe.

If you think about this a bit more closely, it doesn't really make much sense.

For instance, when I see someone reach into their pocket or coat or drawer or anywhere else, I never wonder whether they might be pulling a gun (or a knife, or whatever). They certainly could be, and since I don't know guns that well I wouldn't know until I saw what they pulled out, but that doesn't mean it scares me every time someone reaches for something I can't see. Unless you're in a "rough" area, normal people don't assume hostile intent during a non-hostile situation.

In a social situation where everyone's expecting things to be safe and normal, any fearful reaction to unidentified spellcasting (from PCs or NPCs) is a metagame response, not an in-character one.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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Spellcasting is something that most anyone has a chance of intuitively recognizing if not identifying, as you're right--it is a fairly common feature of the world. Spellcraft is important for identifying spells because (as I interpret it) each spellcasting tradition has a slightly different variation on how a spell is cast. Spellcraft allows one to parse the "grammar" and "language" of magic to interpret its meaning.

For example, let's take charm person. Perhaps the classic verbal component for that spell is "Be my friend" in the language magic-ese, and the somatic component involves pointing at someone with a flourish. A destined-blooded sorcerer might have taught herself the spell but instead says "Let's be pals" and makes a come hither motion. Any Spellcraft-savvy person will recognize these spells, but an untrained fighter might just catch that both of them use the word "be." Considering he's also heard that word when the druid casts baleful polymorph ("become an animal!"), he has every reason to be confused and feel a little threatened. In all likelihood, though, he trusts his companions to cast spells at the appropriate time, so hearing them cast things probably causes no consternation.

I'm with Walter on many points. Casting a spell toward someone without giving them some warning and explanation is probably equivalent to my waving an unfamiliar handheld device in his face. Am I taking your picture? Am I scanning your image and running it through a criminal database? It's rude--particularly if you don't ask permission first. Compare it to some social controversies arising from the development of Google Glass. There are proper, more polite ways to detect someone's alignment or truth, and many of those involve transparency. Casting directional divinations without asking would be perceived as rude by some, a threat by others, and perhaps even an action worthy of punishment.

The Guide to Absalom's notes about spellcasting create a good rule of thumb for many cosmopolitan settlements, though alignment and local conditions will probably tweak things.

You're right. This would make a good blog.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

John Compton wrote:
This would make a good blog.

That'd be awesome!

1/5

wow, thank you John Compton, that was pretty cool

Now, socially acceptable to make a paladin's hair taste like ham via prestidigitation to your Familiar, y/n?

5/5 5/55/55/5

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John Compton wrote:
I'm with Walter on many points.

Mental note: do not insult die hard at paizocon.

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