However, there were a couple big issues (besides the disney bad parenting for the safe of the plot theme) that I had with the script-Thank you. I knew something was off there, I just didn't take the time to work it out.
These sorts of issues always bother me, but they exist in virtually all movies, not just Disney movies. I find it interesting that you pretty much spotted the same issues I have with "Frozen" Doomed, but in spite of those problems, the rest of the movie made up for them. For me anyway.
Frankly these issues are trivial compared to the gaping yawning plot holes and vapidity of the writing for "Avatar" or "Prometheus" and those movies are considered "great art" by most.
The trolls said that fear was Elsa's enemy but what they didn't say was it was her own fear not the fear of others that caused her to loose control of her powers.
Too be honest it wasn't a surprise about Hans at all, they had hints during the movie. Just listen to what he says( and how he says it) during his duet with Anna. Also he said that he had twelve brothers ahead of him in line for the throne in his own kingdom. He said he had been looking for a place of his own. Also if you look at the artbook it was obvious that he was meant to be a villain.
Though I would like to see a male villain in a Disney film that is on par with Ursula or Maleficent in both power and presences.
Though I would like to see a male villain in a Disney film that is on par with Ursula or Maleficent in both power and presences.
I sorta do and sorta don't.
Maleficent is one of my all-time favorite evil villains ever. She runs the entire villainous gamut from creepy backstabber to magnificent monster. My only problem is the same problem I had with Smaug, which is the unbelievable glass chin.
I suppose a male villain comparable to Maleficent would be fun, but I really don't mind her having the spotlight to herself either. I hope Angelina Jolie doesn't ruin her for me...
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For me anyway.Me too. It seemed like they used that twist to set up the twist of how Anna was saved, rather than figuring something else out. But I enjoyed the characters, despite how much they reminded me of others.
Yep, and if during the "Let it Go" song they tried to distract me from the plot with awesome visuals, great music, great vocals and the completely unexpected display of a Disney princess reveling in her newly discovered womanhood...
Well, they distracted very, very well.
I'm totally going to make Elsa a boss in my campaign world. Totally.
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I read an article that said that Frozen had gone through quite a few major revisions since it was originally pitched. In the early drafts Elsa was actually the villain rather than a co-protagonist (and definitely the more dynamic and interesting of the two).
It makes me wonder if the weird plot issues had to do with trying to wrap a revised plot around songs that had been written for a story they weren't telling anymore.
It makes me wonder if the weird plot issues had to do with trying to wrap a revised plot around songs that had been written for a story they weren't telling anymore.
Probably this. I get the definite feeling there was a scene cut that explained Kristoff's backstory.
Interestingly, much the same thing happened with The Emperor's New Groove. Sting signed up to do the songs after Phil Collins's success with Tarzan, and the story was originally a standard Disney melodrama. Somewhere along the way, it morphed into an over-the-top zany comedy, and the studio dumped all of Sting's songs except for the one that played over the closing credits (and that really had nothing to do with the movie anymore).
Don't get me wrong. Frozen is a good movie; I just feel like it could have been a better one with a little more time to tell the story (and maybe cut the troll song).
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DISCLAIMER: still haven't seen it! I could be TOTALLY WRONG! :)
about the song:Which leads to the big song. "Let It Go" is lovely to the eye and ear, but she's basically saying, "I'm tired of being isolated from everyone in a castle so I'll run up here on a mountain and isolate myself from everyone in a castle, albeit with better clothes and hair!" Was I supposed to be cheering that on? Am I supposed to think she's going to be happy living her life in a big, empty ice palace with no friends or family? The animation and music told me I was, but once again, running away from one's problems doesn't solve them.
We have really different interpretations of that song then! :)
I don't see, "I'm tired of isolation, so let me isolate!" I see, "I'm tired of living a lie and keeping secrets - let me instead live where I'm entirely free to be me!"
The entire thing with clothes and hair is to display who she's always wanted to be, but, due to pressure from others/society (that she's now no longer with/in) she has the freedom to be, for the first time in her life.
Still yet to see the movie, but it seems that, whether she originally ran from her problems or not, she left for a reason - that she was (or would have been) rejected by her peers and society, to the best of her knowledge. That oppression was what she was running from - she went to a place to be free and live life on her terms.
Also, reference happiness v. unhappiness in social isolation... yeah, okay, that I agree with. It's one of the reasons it still seems like such a potential maybe-villain song to me.
(As to how I read this behind a spoiler, a toddler did it. No really: toddler clicked the mouse. I noticed something about "Let It Go" and was curious. I've ignored the rest of the text there.)
EDIT: I'm not actually trying to say, "You're wrong!" here, though upon re-reading my post, I can see how it sounds that way. Instead, I'm giving an alternate interpretation.
Similarly, above I'm not saying that Flynn is the best guy, or a good role model, by any means. But pretty much after he become Eugene, he's on a relatively strictly upward-moving moral-shift, and he does have redeeming features: they're just well buried and hidden.
I get that that's what the song's about, but in the context of the movie, it would have made more emotional sense to me if she were running away to join other people like her (reference the trolls' "born with it or a curse?" implying that the boreal bloodline isn't unique) or some other group of people that accepted and welcomed her gift instead of insisting she suppress it. Again, it felt like something was missing that would make more sense of her motivations. I wanted to say "You go, girl," but it felt wrong to say, "Yeah, you totally go off and be alone forever because that's the total opposite of the way you've been forced to live up to now ... oh wait."
2) Give her a governess/tutor/advisor who takes over after her parents' death, trying to "normalize" her through grueling asceticism and harsh punishment.
3) Set up a "barbaric" tribe of people that prize those born with such abilities. The "civilized" kingdom scorns them and is embarrassed by the princess's talents (cue ideas 1 and or 2), and Elsa runs off to become their beloved shaman/queen. Later on, her tribe can totally save the kingdom and show them who's civilized and who isn't.
4) Make her the villain as planned ... although I'm really glad they didn't go this way because Elsa rocks in a way that makes Princess Anna seem tame and underwritten.
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So I haven't watched the movie yet, but I did suddenly notice the new naming convention for the Disney movies - a single word, describing the main character - "Tangled", "brave" and "Frozen". I wonder if this is meant as a "21st century princess trilogy" or if they are going to continue with that.
As far as repairing some of the damage Disney did in the previous century with their problematic representation of the main female characters as basically "girls who need to fall in love with a man and marry him as their ultimate goal", I think Brave was an EXCELLENT movie. It featured a princess, yes, and her parents wanted to marry her to a stranger... and she just said "no, I'm not ready yet and plus when I do get married I want to actually chose the man", and then the rest of the movie had her going on adventures which had nothing to do with getting married to anyone.Just that simple fact - that her story did not involve falling in love and getting married as the happy ending - made it one of the most progressive Disney princess movie ever made.
I liked Brave well enough, but tangle with it's quirky humor (oh gods, where did that horse come from...) was in my opinion much better. Considerably less awesome accents, though. And while Brave had rather unique art style, Tangled looked nice but was very.... "normal" I suppose. Wreck it Ralph was also delightful.
All in all I'm very pleased with Disney over the last few years (at least their animation department - I'm still pissed as hell about "Pirates of the Caribbean 4" and I'm guessing the upcoming 5th movie would be every bit the crime it's predecessor was against the original trilogy), and I certainly intend to watch Frozen. I'll probably wait till it's showing in TV though - that will take about a year I reckon.
YMMV on the "Pirates 4" thing, I thought it was far superior to At World's End.
I absolutely adored this movie, and without nearly any exceptions I thought it was absolutely fantastic. My only real critiques were:
1) The kinda random tribal beginning. It set a really off-beat theme compared to the rest of the movie. I get that it was essentially just a way to introduce Kristoff, and make some references to Ice, but you literally could have removed that scene in it's entirety and you would have lost not a damn thing. In fact, I was -MORE- confused by that scene and Kristoff later talking about being an orphan, considering to me it looked like he belonged with those men, and then was essentially kidnapped by trolls. If you hadn't included that scene, and just had him wandering through the woods before the trolls, woulda made more sense.
2) The whole Hans thing was WAYYYYYYYYYYYY too obvious. By about 2 lines into the duet I had him pinned for the villain. I told my girlfriend (who I saw it with) as much, and she shushed me and called me a liar, then stared daggers into the side of my head when he "revealed" himself.
3) The Ice Golem. Yeah, that was a SUPER cool use of Elsa's magic, but then it essentially went on a rampage and tried to kill Anna... when Elsa had just been so worried about not hurting Anna? I feel like that was a little overplayed.
As far as the current discussion of "Let it Go" is concerned, I really don't think it was about her being tired of isolation. Her parents weren't bad parents because they were bad, but because they over-reacted to what was a genuine mistake. She retreated because she genuinely didn't want to hurt anyone, and she thought the best way to do that was by concealing herself from the world. When she went out to the mountain, she could do whatever she wanted, be who she wanted to be without fear of hurting anyone else. Yeah, she was still in isolation, but at the same time she wasn't isolated and trapped, she was alone and free. I personally found that song very moving, and really poignant when applied to different subtexts.
Joana, as to your ideas:
1, I don't really think would have worked out, because the whole idea was that they were a beloved king and queen, which is why it threw Elsa into such a harsh light when she was born with this magic. 2, that might have worked, but I think she would've ended up dead rather quickly. 3, that might've been a good one. Perhaps those same people we saw in the opening scene could have actually been utilized somehow, or been the people who taught her to properly control her magic. 4, that was actually the original premise of the storyline they based Frozen off of. However, they had been attempting to properly storyboard that particular story for years and it had never really clicked, and didn't do so until one writer had the stroke of genius to make them sisters and move in the direction the movie ultimately went.
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Indeed, the song was less about isolation and more about her being sick of hiding who she really was. She was free to no longer live in fear, forced to hide away, now she could live her life the way she wanted, on her own terms.
I agree. The theme of the song also reminded me of another song done by Menzel. Defiying Gravity.
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I loved Brave and Wreck it Ralph, Tangled was good, and I think Frozen is a great movie. I haven't seen a really good musical Disney movie in ages. I liked Tangled but I can't even remember any of the songs from it. Frozen is one of the few Disney movies that I would really like to see a sequel too, well other then Wreck it Ralph. I would like to see a sequel to Brave though that is technically a Pixar movie. Speaking of Pixar what is the deal with them making sequels to every one of there movies except the one that needs it, wich would be the Incredibles.
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Saw this last night (in large part because of this thread, thanks thread!)
It was really enjoyable, diverged enough from the standard plot to surprise me in places, and will probably make me think more about the next princess movie I see.
My only regret is that I just developed a whole chunk of ice content for one of my games and could have dropped a few Frozen references in there if I'd seen it earlier. Ah well.
Cheers!
Landon
Indeed, the song was less about isolation and more about her being sick of hiding who she really was. She was free to no longer live in fear, forced to hide away, now she could live her life the way she wanted, on her own terms.
Exactly!
I agree. The theme of the song also reminded me of another song done by Menzel. Defiying Gravity.
*Shudders at the awesomeness of songs*
Having seen (and adored) Wicked, this was one of the first things that popped into my head as well, before I even noticed it was Idna.
One of the more interesting things my wife and I and a friend of ours (all spoken of with no prompting from others) each commented on, was that, somehow or another, it seems like Idna was typecast as Elfaba from Wicked. I... never knew that was a type that could be cast.
Saw it last night. Loved it. Didn't have any major problems with the plot.
Yes, he could have just offed Elsa there and called it an accident when telling Anna. But it would just take one witness telling her what actually happened. Hoping the chandelier would take her out on accident would have gone over much better - "Oh this guy was going to shoot her, I knocked the aim off, but..."
Notice how quickly he changed his tune once he knew Anna was dying. No princess to impress, no need to keep Elsa alive.
Love will thaw a frozen heart...remember that Elsa and Anna have been extremely isolated for years. It's hard to have much experience with love when you spend years fearing and hating yourself like Elsa did. It makes sense it would take something like Anna's sacrifice to kickstart it.
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YMMV on the "Pirates 4" thing, I thought it was far superior to At World's End.
Well, it lacked on the one thing that made PotC great for me - a plot motivated by several characters with very strong motivations, with the interest coming from the points where those motivations clashed.
In the fourth movie,
Jack Sparrow has no motivation or reason to be in the story. He finds himself trapped on the voodo ship, which drags him to where the plot is happening, at which points he resorts to doing random good guy things. But Sparrow was never a classic good guy in the original trilogy, which is what made it so interesting when he DID chose to do something noble on an impulse.
In each of the previous movies Jack was a powerful plot motivator - in the first he was hunting the black pearl, and nearly the entire story hinged on his conflict with Barbosa. In the second movie he was trying to shake away his debt to Davy Jones, which again moved the entire plot. In the third he was seeking immortality - though this time the focus was more spread around and other characters got to stand in the center for a bit - mostly Barbosa and Norington.
The original Pirates trilogy did a great job of setting up the characters and letting them tackle each other in increasingly epic orders of magnitude. The fourth movie seemed to me like nothing more than an average adventure movie with one dimensional characters and a somewhat goofy story.
I still liked the 4th one better then the 3rd pirates movie.
I can't wait for Frozen to come out on Blue Ray.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I've been reawakening my long-hibernating inner snowflake savant and making snowflakes for our 1st-3rd grade class, just kind of doodling with the scissors. One of the kids today looked at one of them and said, "Ooh, it looks like Frozen!" :)
So my take:
I liked it -- it was nice to see a pixar movie that wasn't a straight comedy or got overwritten into a comedy and to see a disney movie that wasn't a stereotype out of the box and the entire length of the movie.
MUCH better than brave, and tangled, though I liked tangled more than brave... after all who can be against disney's first bondage princess?
All in all while I could do without the comic relief snowman (really he contributed NOTHING to the movie) over all I think it was the strongest 'kids' movie I have seen in a long while.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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** spoiler omitted **So my take:
I liked it -- it was nice to see a pixar movie that wasn't a straight comedy or got overwritten into a comedy and to see a disney movie that wasn't a stereotype out of the box and the entire length of the movie.
MUCH better than brave, and tangled, though I liked tangled more than brave... after all who can be against disney's first bondage princess?
All in all while I could do without the comic relief snowman (really he contributed NOTHING to the movie) over all I think it was the strongest 'kids' movie I have seen in a long while.
The movie has also won a lot awards and nominations:)
Bad Arnie voice, but funny.
...
...I...
...you
...
.it..
..broke.
...
guh?
Also, Mr. Freeze is much more relate able.
It was nice to have a comic relief character who actually made me laugh out loud, instead of cringe and grit my teeth.
Between Olaf, and Kristof doing the Sven-triloquism, I was pleased with the humorous side of the film.
^ This, and a lot of it.
I've not yet put down my opinion here, because I want to write up a full review, but I keep running out of time or forgetting, but I'm going to drop a few things quickly.1) I strongly suspect that some people won't like it, because it's not the film we were advertised (pleasantly enough in some cases). There were some really cool things there that are not here. After the similar issue with Brave whiplash, however, it doesn't affect me as much here. And there are two different kinds of expectation-whiplash that could work against the film here, so...
2) It had a few problems with pacing. The transitions were, in my opinion, just a little too rapid (even while many of them were still expertly done). I kept wanting them to either linger for a few more moments on a scene before they changed, or they needed a set of transitions to alter the mood. A prime example: Let It Go is an amazing song, but I wanted more of a "moment" between the intensity before, and the lonely sorrow that it starts up with - something to set the tone for the song.
3) Some people (generally known as "crazyfolk") might be turned off by the fact that every song in the film (and even most unvocalized musical numbers, unless they're a reprise from a song or earlier piece) is a different genre or style. All of 'em. It's... amazing.
4) There are a few (minor) plot holes; however these are generally par for the course with most Disney films and stack up favorably to, say, Tangled or even Up*. They are not movie-breaking.
5) The characterization is rapid and complete as it needs to be, though I would dearly have loved some more.
6) There is one moment - exactly ONE moment - of moral dissonance, but I believe the dissonance is caused by a lack of set-up and/or explanation, not because the movie is actively sabotaging itself. Still, I entirely understand how this could turn some off.
7) Everything else is amazing. The music if amazing, the visuals are great, the characters are all relateable and likable (except the ones I should hate, in which case, they're perfectly hateable), the story was beautiful and good, the morals were also genuinely good, the interactions and reversals of expectations were handled deftly and really surprisingly (yet make sense in character**), and, frankly, the entire thing is a wonderful experience. My only regret is that it's not sitting in my house right now so I can watch it more.
* Yes, I know it's a Pixar film. And no, you shut up, it's one of my favorite films of all time. ALL TIME. It still has some plot holes. I've watched it slowly and carefully - and, with a toddler, repeatedly - enough to get to know them quite well.
** Yes, yes, I know,
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To the minority of people who have a problem with "Let It Go":
There's a reason the song comes right around the beginning of Act II. Elsa has lived eighteenish years, and I'd wager right around a decade of that has been away from her family. She's been told that she has to hide who she is from everyone, pretend that she's something else, and that the world will never accept her if they find out what she is and what she can do.
Then, inevitably, it happens. She reveals her ice powers, and she flees. All alone on a mountaintop, at what should be her lowest point, she discovers something: she's finally free from the responsibilities and burdens of her true nature that her parents have forced her to adhere to. For the first time in a decade, she's free to use her powers to do whatever she wants, chief among her creations an incredibly detailed and beautiful ice palace.
But what she doesn't realize at first is that she's traded one form of isolation for another. She's even begun telling herself a lie to help her accept the new reality she's made for herself. "The cold never bothered me anyway." Here, "cold" means "loneliness." And she is lonely. She wants human contact, but has been taught to keep everyone at arm's length. She's telling herself this lie, because it makes it easier to accept that she's still alone.
So, yes, it's a song about trading one isolation for another. She feels free, but this freedom is just another, larger prison. Her whole character arc is finding out what damage shutting people out causes - especially family.
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **So my take:
I liked it -- it was nice to see a pixar movie that wasn't a straight comedy or got overwritten into a comedy and to see a disney movie that wasn't a stereotype out of the box and the entire length of the movie.
MUCH better than brave, and tangled, though I liked tangled more than brave... after all who can be against disney's first bondage princess?
All in all while I could do without the comic relief snowman (really he contributed NOTHING to the movie) over all I think it was the strongest 'kids' movie I have seen in a long while.
He was the annoying comic relief that wasn't actually needed.
Any of those tasks could have been accomplished by other characters.
When it comes to actual story and character interaction he wasn't even a decent supporting role.
The comic relief was fine without his involvement and the lack of the character did not have to impact the story at all.
Sorry you feel that way. It appears though several people feel otherwise.
That's fine -- everyone likes different things:
MY main overall point is it is a great movie.
I do not appreciate the snowman -- but even with that it is a movie my kids will own in the not too distant future.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **So my take:
I liked it -- it was nice to see a pixar movie that wasn't a straight comedy or got overwritten into a comedy and to see a disney movie that wasn't a stereotype out of the box and the entire length of the movie.
MUCH better than brave, and tangled, though I liked tangled more than brave... after all who can be against disney's first bondage princess?
All in all while I could do without the comic relief snowman (really he contributed NOTHING to the movie) over all I think it was the strongest 'kids' movie I have seen in a long while.
He was the annoying comic relief that wasn't actually needed.
Any of those tasks could have been accomplished by other characters.
** spoiler omitted **
When it comes to actual story and character interaction he wasn't even a decent supporting role.
The comic relief was fine without his involvement and the lack of the character did not have to impact the story at all.
Well, I suppose in matters of taste there can be no argument. I still think Olaf is a lot more crucial to the plot than you give him credit for. :)
and nothing happened. A much better twist and it moves Disney beyond the hackeyed "prince charming" simple love solves everything. It pushes more to the "love takes more than 15 minutes to establish" and allows for their relationship to develop more than just a superficial physical relationship.
Or they could have just let her get out on her own doing the last dying minutes take forever crap. Simply reducing the level of helplessness at that point would work, as would moving the action closer to the building so that she didn't have to go as far out on the lake (which is really odd because the bay was never between everyone earlier in the movie and there was no reason for the prince to think that she would be on the bay.
But anyway about it a great movie.
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From BBC1: "Kathryn Skaggs, a Mormon blogger, identifies what she sees as the film's attempt to normalise homosexuality. She writes: 'When mainstream society comes to the point where it celebrates that which is contrary to the commandments, taught in a movie presumably made for children, by awarding it the highest accolades within its culture, and good parents don't perceive it, but rather endorse it unwittingly, we are in serious trouble.'"
My rewrite of Ms. Skaggs' comments:
When most people come to the point where they celebrate that which I dislike and that which is, in my personal opinion, contrary to the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon, taught in a movie presumably made for children, by awarding it the highest accolades within its culture, and good parents don't see how the film conflicts with my interpretation of the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon, but rather endorse it, not knowing or not caring that I disagree, I am unhappy.
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From BBC1: "Kathryn Skaggs, a Mormon blogger, identifies what she sees as the film's attempt to normalise homosexuality. She writes: 'When mainstream society comes to the point where it celebrates that which is contrary to the commandments, taught in a movie presumably made for children, by awarding it the highest accolades within its culture, and good parents don't perceive it, but rather endorse it unwittingly, we are in serious trouble.'"
My rewrite of Ms. Skaggs' comments:
When most people come to the point where they celebrate that which I dislike and that which is, in my personal opinion, contrary to the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon, taught in a movie presumably made for children, by awarding it the highest accolades within its culture, and good parents don't see how the film conflicts with my interpretation of the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon, but rather endorse it, not knowing or not caring that I disagree, I am unhappy.
Can we have, just for once, a thread that doesn't bring any sort of sexuality into it?
I mean...come on...
I thought part of the point of the movie was to point out that true love was something the sisters had, but wasn't something that came instantaneous...
IMHO the songs were the highlights of the movie, ofc I have young girls so....