This is not a thread to defend magic mart as whole. I have noticed that it is frowned upon, and I understand why. I also wanted to know if there was a behind the scenes reason as to why others allowed it. I will go first.
One of my first GM's used to make us use gather information to find an item, if it was not a scroll, wand, or anything he considered to be cheap. I do like the idea, since I doubt such stores would exist. However I also feel like any players I had would just get the most diplomatic party member to find the item for them. It would also force me to come up with rules to determine when a magic item is found. Well I could just make it up as I went along, but I just prefer concrete rulings. Another thing is that I don't want to spend game time shopping, if I can help it. That is something that can be handled by email as an example. So in order to avoid making up new rules, and to save the time in games I just assume items under a certain value are in city X.
I roll on the random chart for anything else. <-----I used to just roll an arbitrary success chance.
I don't use a magic-mart in my games but separate smaller shops for different kinds of items. I do go by the book guidelines that describe what gp of items would be available in a particular size of city. I also keep track of the highest level caster who's services are available for hire to determine if an item could be commissioned.
If my players are looking for a custom item it must always be commissioned. Same with 3rd level and above wands, scrolls, and potions.
As for why, I find that the players will get what they want eventually anyway and it is easier and less time expensive to have a predictable way for it to work.
I don't assume there's a singular magic mart in my games, but rather a number of shops that sell magic items. Provided the item is within the appropriate value, it can be found somewhere in that city and I tend to just let players purchase items within the value of their location pre-session to help save on time. That being said once the players are high enough leveled to start regularly visiting various planar metropolises I treat such planar metropolises as having effectively uncapped purchase limits, being a step up from metropolises.
The reason is simple. Without easy access to magic items, martials are going to fall even further behind casters who have significantly less need for magic items to function.
Most of the reasons I see DM's allowing a Magic Mart is because they have a story, and they have dungeons and NPCs and encounters prepared, but they don't really have much to do with the setting and the people in the setting. It's filler, just something to get out of the way to make room for the 'real game' so they try and cut time down as much as possible without completely losing immersion of the world.
Myself, I incorporate a pseudo-magic shop kind of workings depending on what city my players are in. I have my own game world, and in it I have them start out in the sort of central hub city (think Absolom mixed with Minas Titirth) and throughout the city there are various crafters and workers that the players visit in various stores, bazaars, trading posts, and eventually the arcane academy (which I have yet to come up with a good name for) to buy and sell items.
I also have a travelling gnome bard NPC who provides the characters with random info on places they visit who also functions as a traveling merchant capable of getting his hands on things that shops can't, who is also a collector of rare and interesting items.
Most of my game world revolves around the importance and prevalence of Magic Items, since they are the most important thing to the players, so to are they the most important thing to the world around them, and it makes it easier to not only base a story around that my players can get into, but it helps me keep a balancing factor on what items are and aren't available, and if they are, what kind of mark-ups they have to deal with until they accomplish certain quests.
i try to use magic mart within reason. though instead of 1 shop, it's akin to a market or Bazaar, where even if one dealer doesn't possess the item, there is bound to be one whom can provide it if you look hard enough.
if it's under the community GP limit, you can buy it, if it's over, you have to commission it. if it's class specific (such as gloves of dueling), custom (such as armor with permanent death ward), highly specific (such as an agile or guided weapon) or highly unique (such as an item with 3 or 4 by the book properties on it or a specific armor of a different base armor type or material.), you have to commission it
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So in order to avoid making up new rules, and to save the time in games I just assume items under a certain value are in city X.
That's the main reason I abstract most magic item shopping too. After playing in one or two games where spent the entire session shopping for gear I decided to keep gametime spent on shopping to a minimum in games I ran.
I generally assume the "Magic Mart" is an abstraction for every dealer in magic items, freelance enchanter, and random adventurers selling off old gear within a community. While abstracting all of that under the hood to get on with things can be useful most of the time, I will say that there are times when doing the shopping in-game can be a useful way to drop plot hooks or ideas for a sandbox game. Stuff like the enchanter who makes the party's gear handing out a quest hook for spell components, the secondhand magic item you bought from a retiring adventurer having a dark secret, etc.
I think Master Marshmallow had an interesting point on how different styles of games favor different magic item systems. If it's something with a fairly tight plot, like an adventure path, then there's a natural desire to keep the plot moving forward. Meanwhile, more sandbox-style games tend to be a lot more open to spending time on shopping, because there's no overarching plot that everyone else wants to get back to advancing.
I don't assume there's a singular magic mart in my games,...
I don't either but the ease with which I make magic items availible has pretty much the same affect. I think that "ease" is what is generally referred to when people say "magic mart". I don't think they mean one store that sells everything, but I might be wrong.
I don't usually have much in the way of magic item markets within my campaigns. They just seem like too much of a high-ticket item to sit on a shelf somewhere. Instead various guilds trade items around the world. A player who is interested in obtaining a certain item just finds a broker, who for a large finder fee (the 50% markup in the book) uses their contacts to either order one in from another city or to have it commissioned.
Usually takes a few weeks (or more for exotic items) to arrive, but the PCs can wait and enjoy some downtime or have it delivered to wherever they're traveling to next and pick it up from a different guild broker.
This means that players can still purchase whatever items they need without it feeling like magic is a retail item. It also makes the magic-item brokers good quest-givers and handy NPC contacts to make.
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I don't usually have much in the way of magic item markets within my campaigns. They just seem like too much of a high-ticket item to sit on a shelf somewhere. Instead various guilds trade items around the world. A player who is interested in obtaining a certain item just finds a broker, who for a large finder fee (the 50% markup in the book) uses their contacts to either order one in from another city or to have it commissioned.
I just wanted to say the fee for brokering is brilliant. That neatly explains that mark-up and, at the same time, potentially creates some plot hooks or provides some interesting alternate rewards.
Cheers!
Landon
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In real life, the fun of shopping is finding new items on the shelves and comparing the different styles. In roleplaying, shopping is like catalog shopping where the catalog is Ultimate Equipment. The fun of paging through the catalog occurs before the game, and roleplaying the purchase is merely phoning in a catalog order.
In most cases, the GM cannot avoid the magic mart; instead, he can only make the magic mart unreliable, rolling randomly to determine whether the item is in stock, out of stock but can be special ordered, or out of stocking entirely. And out of stock is frustrating, as illustrated in Order of the Stick #136. It does not matter to the players whether the magic mart is one well-guarded shop, several small specialty shops, or a broker who knows which private individuals might be willing to sell such items. The players are focusing on outfitting their characters, not exploring the city.
Yesterday, in the Monday night Jade Regent campaign I run, the party went shopping in the city of Kalsgard in preparation for The Hungry Storm module. For the most part, they found what they wanted: bags of holding and boots of the winterland surely are common magic items in a far-north trade city. Other items could be manufactured taking 1 day per 1000 gold in the cost. Time mattered because the party wanted to leave in three days before the local law learned of their previous adventure and locked them up to await trial. The beautiful oracle discovered that a wizard who specialized in wands would make a wand of Cure Light Wounds for her in one day, but he would have to charge her extra to hire a cleric to provide the divine spell, unless she did it herself. The party ninja bodyguarding the oracle on the buddy system found herself chaperoning the oracle with an Intimidate check because the wizard flirted while the two spellcasters made the wand. And that is a far as the roleplaying went.
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I have a fairly loose house rule that says it takes 1 hour of shopping per 1,000 gp of the item price to find someone that has an item and is willing to sell it. Each character can only look for 1 item at a time, and a shopping day is an 8 hour period. After the time has passed, I will check whether the item is available.
Doing it like that allows me to put time pressure on characters if I need to, but still gives them a fair chance of finding what they want if it's below a settlement's gp limit.
The time spent represents wandering around, asking people, being sent to other people, bartering, and so forth, as you might in a bazaar: "Ah, I don't have anything like what you seek, but if you go and find Old Regarno - he's probably having a drink in the Whistling Wizard - he'll point you in the right direction. Do come back if you need any herbal remedies, though."
Since my players tend to want to get on with the plot, we abstract that into the shopping time. If they fail to find what they're looking for, or want some certainty, they can always commission an item, provided that they can find someone to make it.
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In the past, I allowed it simply because it was the easiest way to deal with treasure. I firmly believe that the game requires magic items as written at mid to high levels. And its not unreasonable for players to want those items to be specifically tailored to their character. In particular because as the game has expanded (both in previous editions and pathfinder), more and more character choices limit what magic items are useful to a character. If someone has taken 5 feats and 2 class features to make them a master with a whip, giving them a magic greatsword is meaningless treasure.
Random magic items on their own simply do not work, my party has a sorceror and an oracle, a pearl of power doesnt do anyone any good. At the same time, I dont want every bad guy to have a magic whip for no obvious reason just because the fighter specializes in whips.
The other problem is disposing of the redundant treasure that piles up over time. In a party of a rogue, fighter, cleric and wizard. You only need one set of magic light armor (for the rogue). But if you fight a group of bandits, they probably all have magic light armor if its a mid level encounter.
So how do I get him a whip without some really contrived planting of a magic whip? What do you do with the extra magic chainshirts? The easy answer? A magic mart. Go sell the great sword and the chainshirts and buy your whip. From a game perspective its by far the best answer.
But from a world building perspective its kind of rediculous. I have since adopted house rules to replace the vast majority of magic items with ingrained bonuses character choose from as the level, and leave the magic items to flavorful and interesting things like a cape of the montebank, or unique and specific magical weapons rather then +1 sword #24542.
But if you dont want those kind of house rules, short of spending lots of game time sorting out gear, or really contrived placement of magic items, you pretty much HAVE to have a magic mart. Or ofcourse throw out the CR system and run with a party that may or may not have the gear the game expects. Thats also an option for experienced gms, but its not one I care to take up.
I tend to heavily modify the default magic item economy so that magic isn't so incredibly expensive (the high level economy is basically exclusively driven by the high cost of magic items many of which are going to equal the net GDP of entire regions if not nations) and go with the idea that for every active adventurer there tends to be a decent number of retired adventurers that like to earn a bit of extra cash providing goods and services to adventurers.
Thus most consumables and most of the big six are going to be fairly available at various shops, market stalls and stores. Due to the high cost of magic items even with the prices slashed by a factor of 10 a lot of purchases tend to be driven by barter where the seller might be willing to offer a +1 long sword to the fighter in return for collecting something of value. In addition the process of upgrading enchantments is much easier than it is in the RAW because I dislike the idea that the Cavalier might continual replace his long sword for a new shiny blade when it makes more sense to have his ancestral masterwork blade continually upgraded as the legend of the cavalier increases.
The result is that purchasing magic goods tends to also lead into adventure hooks.
Fortunately absolute critical items like the Cloak of Resistance are basically a requirement for NPCs to not get completely destroyed in combat so as long as the GM uses humanoid antagonists past level 4 or so cloaks should be a pretty common loot bundle because otherwise it's simply too easy to SoL humanoid martial NPCs.
Depends on where the campaign is taking place at. If the city is known for its magic, wizards, etc. then there is a good chance that at least some form of 'magic mart' might exist. After all not all vendors are going to want to setup a permanent place of business in just one city as many travel around based on the season or locale of well known 'adventuring spots'.
Magic Marts also provide a valuable distraction and a gold sink, should the DM/GM need to deprive the party of hard currency.
Rings of Prot, Amulets of Nat Armor, and Cloaks of Resistance are common treasure in my games. Not always on the same guy, but out of 4 encounters, a party of four players should have one of each. Note that 4 encounters usually ends up with my characters leveling up and by then they will already be wanting to upgrade what they have, but that's just DnD.
Armor, Weapons, and the like are more often than not going to need to be custom crafted, less they want a simple +1, or +1 flaming, etc. Unless they want to take one of the McGuffin plot device items for themselves and turn the campaign evil, which could happen at any time.
This has honestly NEVER been a problem in my games. For one thing all my games implode at 4th to 6th level for some reason, so my players are usually only buying consumables. For another I always include a crafter NPC or two in some of the initial contacts I give the party, and they make a point to seek them out in town so they just buy stuff off them. However if my game ever makes it to levels where my PCs start to really need powerful wondrous items, weapons, staves, etc, I suppose I'd handle it like this:
There's no Magic Mart. However towns and cities have leftovers; items handed down over time, resold from loot broght by other adventurers, and such. These hand-me-downs are generally kept among like items or in the homes of people known to have been associated with them.
On top of that, there are crafters.
If in RL we can have a Lexus Dealership full of luxury vehicles that only the upper third of the local populace can even afford to look at, it stands to reason that the wealthy of major locales would have access to crafters of such extreme skill that they may have enchanted wares alongside their masterworks. Of course, they might have a few on display to impress the neuvo riche like adventurers.
Finally, there are the PCs contacts.
Getting back to my own low-level solution for consumables, there are NPCs the characters know like the local cloistered nun/healer, or perhaps the old kook in the tower on the edge of town. These folks have other contacts BESIDES the party and may once in a while receive info, items, and materials to help the PCs.
I like the broker fee idea. However I prefer to keep things simple while also using these things to help define the setting instead of defying it.
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Been discussed before but I shall repeat my issues with the magic mart, and they are related to having a congruent games 'world'.
1. Legality - authority tends not to like uncontrolled, highly dangerous groups running around their territory. Some sort of system of sanction/regulation should be in place for what are often potentially weapons of mass destruction. The solution? Work for a faction/group and don't break the law to a serious degree.
2. Who controls the 'market'? Guilds, Nobles, Thieves, Temples, etc. All these factions/groups have a vested interest in CONTROLLING the sale of expensive and magical items. Favours and service may be the best means to gain access to the purchase of magic BUT there will be limits on purchases and again consequences for 'improper' use.
3. Availability - magic items generally would be bespoke and made to order (otherwise they may be stolen of confiscated with associated loss of costs). Therefore an order period should be the construction time plus a random amount of time to complete previous orders.
I do see parallels with the gun debate in the U.S. for the wider implications of the availability of dangerous weapons e.g. for Semi-Automatic Assault Rifle replace 'Wand of Fireballs'.
The problem becomes you're now docking the martial users even more because they're visibly wearing all their dangerous stuff. Your local high level oracle/sorcerer can torch the town looking like a beggar.
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Based on other versions of this thread that I have participated in, this is one of those discussions that defies rational arguments because the most invested players tend to treat this subject as an ideological issue, not a debatable one.
For some Magic Marts are just plain WRONG and leave a bad taste in their mouths. Explaining to them why they are just hunky-dory is generally a waste of time because it's like trying to explain to someone why they should enjoy eating asparagus when it gags them.
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I don't mind if they don't like eating asparagus though, as long as they realize not eating their asparagus is going to impose heavy changes to their diet (campaign) and they make said changes in a way that doesn't screw over Steve (Mundane Dude). If they aren't able to get the nutritional benefits of asparagus elsewhere their health is going to decline.
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Anzyr, that would qualify as attempting to use rational debate to change someone's mind.
Good luck with that.
It heavily depends on the campaign I'm running and how.
That said, I tend to allow it unless there are campaign-specific reasons (in-story reasons) not to.
In general I rarely run it as a singular shop that holds a treasure-trove of stuff*, but more like hidden away here or there, a few gems available among the dross. Kind of like Ravengro in Carrion Crown, actually: there are magic items here or there, but you don't get access to them, unless the salesfolk like you enough to do so. More or less forcefully weaving the acquisition of magic into stories and creating investment with NPCs at the same time. The actual sales tend to be hand-waved.
At least, that's at low levels.
At higher levels, the PCs often have access to rapid transportation (and thus can go and find places that have what they need available within the gold piece limits) and lots of gold (and thus have a lot of people who want that gold). Because of those two things, I tend to do more handwaving about the who's and the why's and the where's, though I try to give a salesperson some personality in case I want to use story hooks later.
Due to me tending to be a tad on the generous side with treasure, though, it's rarely a major issue for my players. Usually they use what they find, and ignore and sell what they can't use, purchasing a few consumables or commissioning a specific item every once in a rare while.
As for where all the different treasures come from? The PCs aren't the only adventurers out there, the world is very old, and there are lots of little things handed down through families for ages. And there are lots of families doing the handing-down.
* Unless it's a one-shop kind of town. However, if there are really, really valuable things, they simply aren't for sale in such a place, unless I have a retired arch-mage who has a combined geas/lesser geas/mark of 'justice'/etc-like cursed character** who simply can't afford to go gallivanting around the world, and is compelled to be a business person.
** Or one who has other reasons. That guy in particular, though, shouldn't have been messing with all the genies and demons for wishes.
Anzyr, that would qualify as attempting to use rational debate to change someone's mind.
Good luck with that.
Thank you! Unfortunately, you are sadly correct that rational arguments are of limited value though.
Of course this isn't a binary issue, there is an infinite continuum of options for making magic items available through sale, barter or reward that can satisfy the party's needs, and many GMs make use of many different options. I've had PCs gain magic items from local collectors, for example, usually in exchange for a service, or as a tool to use to gain a superior item for the collector.
I personally find most of the arguments against "magic marts" to be less than convincing since virtually every one of them can be addressed adequately from a campaign "flavor" perspective if you really want to do it. What it frequently seems to boil down to is the GM not liking the idea that their players get to pick items off a menu because that somehow destroys the "flavor" they like their campaign to have where magic items are "rare and special." The in game consequence of that approach is that it leaves the players at the mercy of the GM to make items available which tends to create situations where items the player wants simply aren't provided, or it ends up with the most implausible mechanisms for unique items the player wants to suddenly appear for the PC as if the gods are singling them out for special treatment.
Both of those approaches bother me more than "Here's where you can buy magic stuff. If you want something they don't have, perhaps they can commission someone to craft it, or they can order it from their dealer connections."
But that's just me, and yes this qualifies as attempting to provide rational analysis and we all know what that gets us.
I guess then the question is whether or not we all agree that PCs should be able to access the items they want, rather than whether or not we like magic marts? I mean sure I might not like the verisimilitude of "Oh hey a Furious, Courageous Greatsword, just what I wanted!", but I'm sure some people like or even prefer that to just buying one and S-Mart.
So, PCs having access to items they want: Yay or Nay?
I think Anzyr is simply trying to get to the root of the issue, and I personally think his question is fine and could help to cut through some of the clutter.
I personally think that players should be able to expect that the magic items that are generally known to be crucial to their class/concept will be available somehow. How that is accomplished is up to the GM and player group. Magic "marts" seems to generally be used as a pejorative term itself that I don't like to use since in my games there is a continuum of shops and services to provide magic items that does not rely on some fantasy version of "Wal-mart" as so many people seem to assume.
So, yes, Anzyr, I tend to be a player advocate and that means I want them to be able to play their preferred concept when I can support it. So that means I tend to allow magic items to be purchased, although very powerful ones might require some effort to locate first.
I guess then the question is whether or not we all agree that PCs should be able to access the items they want, rather than whether or not we like magic marts? I mean sure I might not like the verisimilitude of "Oh hey a Furious, Courageous Greatsword, just what I wanted!", but I'm sure some people like or even prefer that to just buying one and S-Mart.
So, PCs having access to items they want: Yay or Nay?
You really don't get the point of some of the other posters here. Reducing this question to a simple binary is probably the worst, most idiotic approach to take to it.
The proper answer is that magic item access will vary from campaign to campaign, even from region to region. according to a variety of reasons. World setting and flavor being the most important.
Even in Golarion, this is true. Shopping for most major potions is a no brainer in Absalom. Trying to get a Raise Dead in Rahadoum is going to give you the very unwelcome attention of the Pure Legion.
That doesn't rally answer my general question. Allowing PCs access to items regardless of magic mart or not, does not require you to allow the PCs to purchase a potion of healing in the middle of the desert. If the PCs in your campaign can generally acquire the items they are looking for even if not in certain locations, I would put you down as a yes to my question. Seem fair?
I'm assuming "magic mart" means a store that has anything? There may be different connotations.
Anyway, I go by the settlement rules. It's a major pain normally, but as I [perhaps too] often mention, I wrote an item generator to do all the rolling for me, going with the 75% success rate if it's below base value, and all that good stuff.
It's kind of fun to see players improvise when something they want is not available. Unfortunately, I don't think they've ever looked at the list and thought, "Yeah, I'll get that." Instead, they wait until what they want is available. So many magic items in this game, so few see use longer than the time of looting (might as well use it) to the time of pawning off for half price. I got a bit off-topic there...
Of course, as someone else mentioned, once teleportation and interplanar travel is involved, I wouldn't bother rolling, particularly during extended downtime, since the party can shop around at all the major cities.
As for why I even try: I would prefer there be some element of chaos in magic item shopping. The players are playing to problem solve, after all. Adapt. That kind of thing.
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I think Anzyr is simply trying to get to the root of the issue, and I personally think his question is fine and could help to cut through some of the clutter.
I'll third that point. It does seem like there's two types of GMs who don't like the idea of PCs buying magic items. For some, it's either a verisimilitude issue or a preference for low-magic campaigns, but there do seem to be a lot of GMs who get very offended by the idea that players want certain magic items. I recall a couple threads when ultimate equipment came out complaining that now players wanted the neat new items there, or that Pathfinder moved magic items to the Core Rulebook instead of having them in the GM-only book for the same reason.
For my part, magic items are such an important part of what characters can do that I think players should generally be able to get what they want in some way, shape, or form. Pathfinder has the magic item treadmill build into the system, after all. It's been said more than once, but WBL only really counts if it's in items your player can use. A greatsword-specialized fighter who only gets a +4 dagger as a weapon is not getting the full use of his character wealth.
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You mean not everyone has a Blood Bath and Beyond in their town? How egregious! Poor sods, they must die a lot.
You can always use one of my favorite methods, the good old "residuum" concept. In the larger towns/cities the group may be able to find an enchanter, that can break down magical items into "essence" that can be crafted or adhered to a masterwork or better quality weapon, causing various magical effects ((masterwork shortsword suddenly gains +1 flaming" for the diference in cost + 50g per hour of creation as based on crafting item ones self.)) This allows useless magical items to be of worth, but keeps it controlled, and negates the magic mart concept, as the group must rationally explain the effect they want to the enchanter who can either do it already, or require rsearch
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What generally gets overlooked in these ideological debates about stores in game selling magic items is that the real problem this exposes has nothing to do with verisimilitude or flavor or economics.
The real problem is that PF (and the games it was derived from) rely far too heavily on magic items to allow PCs to reach their potential. This is a fundamental game design issue that has impacts far beyond "magic marts". It's an issue that takes the awesomeness of the character and puts a huge, some might say overwhelming, percentage of that awesomeness on the character's bling.
That's the problem. Magic marts are just one way to address the problem. And not the worst way in my opinion. I find worlds with magic marts far superior to worlds where spellcasters gain an even LARGER advantage over martial characters because the poor sap martials can't even have decent weapons or armor, and I also find them superior to worlds where PCs just randomly and haphazardly stumble into that perfect +3 flaming courageous falchion buried in the muck at the bottom of the troll hoard.
In a more perfect game system a character's awesomeness would not rely on GM fiat or on magical vending machines in every town.
At least put the onus where it belongs.
What generally gets overlooked in these ideological debates about stores in game selling magic items is that the real problem this exposes has nothing to do with verisimilitude or flavor or economics.
The real problem is that PF (and the games it was derived from) rely far too heavily on magic items to allow PCs to reach their potential. This is a fundamental game design issue that has impacts far beyond "magic marts". It's an issue that takes the awesomeness of the character and puts a huge, some might say overwhelming, percentage of that awesomeness on the character's bling.
That's the problem. Magic marts are just one way to address the problem. And not the worst way in my opinion. I find worlds with magic marts far superior to worlds where spellcasters gain an even LARGER advantage over martial characters because the poor sap martials can't even have decent weapons or armor, and I also find them superior to worlds where PCs just randomly and haphazardly stumble into that perfect +3 flaming courageous falchion buried in the muck at the bottom of the troll hoard.
In a more perfect game system a character's awesomeness would not rely on GM fiat or on magical vending machines in every town.
At least put the onus where it belongs.
On this topic I have been seriously contemplating using a system similar to BoED's vow of poverty without the "poverty" part to give players the big 6 bonuses and those items simply wouldn't exist in my worlds. Also would make "special" enchants like flaming, bane, ect available as weapon/armor crystals.
What generally gets overlooked in these ideological debates about stores in game selling magic items is that the real problem this exposes has nothing to do with verisimilitude or flavor or economics.
The real problem is that PF (and the games it was derived from) rely far too heavily on magic items to allow PCs to reach their potential. This is a fundamental game design issue that has impacts far beyond "magic marts". It's an issue that takes the awesomeness of the character and puts a huge, some might say overwhelming, percentage of that awesomeness on the character's bling.
That's the problem. Magic marts are just one way to address the problem. And not the worst way in my opinion. I find worlds with magic marts far superior to worlds where spellcasters gain an even LARGER advantage over martial characters because the poor sap martials can't even have decent weapons or armor, and I also find them superior to worlds where PCs just randomly and haphazardly stumble into that perfect +3 flaming courageous falchion buried in the muck at the bottom of the troll hoard.
In a more perfect game system a character's awesomeness would not rely on GM fiat or on magical vending machines in every town.
At least put the onus where it belongs.
So much this.
And the issue isn't new to PF, or even 3e. In previous editions, PC stats are reliant upon magical items -- heck, muggles need magical weapons of escalating bonuses to bypass the damage immunity of various higher-level monsters. Not damage reduction; damage immunity. Don't have enough plusses? Sucks to be you! You'd better run away, or hope that your DM likes your creative plan B.
It's really an issue intrinsic to the whole D&D family.
What generally gets overlooked in these ideological debates about stores in game selling magic items is that the real problem this exposes has nothing to do with verisimilitude or flavor or economics.
The real problem is that PF (and the games it was derived from) rely far too heavily on magic items to allow PCs to reach their potential. This is a fundamental game design issue that has impacts far beyond "magic marts". It's an issue that takes the awesomeness of the character and puts a huge, some might say overwhelming, percentage of that awesomeness on the character's bling.
That's the problem. Magic marts are just one way to address the problem. And not the worst way in my opinion. I find worlds with magic marts far superior to worlds where spellcasters gain an even LARGER advantage over martial characters because the poor sap martials can't even have decent weapons or armor, and I also find them superior to worlds where PCs just randomly and haphazardly stumble into that perfect +3 flaming courageous falchion buried in the muck at the bottom of the troll hoard.
In a more perfect game system a character's awesomeness would not rely on GM fiat or on magical vending machines in every town.
At least put the onus where it belongs.
So much this.
And the issue isn't new to PF, or even 3e. In previous editions, PC stats are reliant upon magical items -- heck, muggles need magical weapons of escalating bonuses to bypass the damage immunity of various higher-level monsters. Not damage reduction; damage immunity. Don't have enough plusses? Sucks to be you! You'd better run away, or hope that your DM likes your creative plan B.
It's really an issue intrinsic to the whole D&D family.
it's also an issue intrisnic to many other RPGs that are derivative systems of the D&D family, or MMOs whom take inspiration from D&D. which is pretty much any RPG that uses a Western Style fantasy setup where magic is the only way to beat magic. in other words, a large mountain's worth of sister, daughter, and cousin systems.
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If I had to personally pick my one single overwhelming problem with Pathfinder, D&D and other games based on the same fundamental design issues, it is this singular focus on magic stuff being required to be successful.
People complain that magic marts make magic items less "special." The only reason magic marts exist is because if your PC doesn't light up like a Christmas tree when someone uses detect magic, you better have a GM scaling down encounters to match your character's ineptitude. That means every PC lights up like a Christmas tree. THAT'S what makes magic items feel mundane and common. Everybody has magic junk hanging off of every body part that can hold one, and most have magic trinkets floating around their head and littered on their animal companions and familiars. If magic items truly are "rare and special" your average adventuring party is a walking treasure pile waiting to be looted by any enterprising villain.
And the argument that this is somehow "western fantasy" based is nonsense. In most western fantasy your most powerful literary and mythological figures MIGHT HAVE two or three magic items their entire careers. What most PF PCs dump as useless obsolete junk dwarfs the magical treasures of Aragorn, Gandalf, King Arthur, Galahad, Beowulf..... you name them.
Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.
If I had to personally pick my one single overwhelming problem with Pathfinder, D&D and other games based on the same fundamental design issues, it is this singular focus on magic stuff being required to be successful.
People complain that magic marts make magic items less "special." The only reason magic marts exist is because if your PC doesn't light up like a Christmas tree when someone uses detect magic, you better have a GM scaling down encounters to match your character's ineptitude. That means every PC lights up like a Christmas tree. THAT'S what makes magic items feel mundane and common. Everybody has magic junk hanging off of every body part that can hold one, and most have magic trinkets floating around their head and littered on their animal companions and familiars. If magic items truly are "rare and special" your average adventuring party is a walking treasure pile waiting to be looted by any enterprising villain.
And the argument that this is somehow "western fantasy" based is nonsense. In most western fantasy your most powerful literary and mythological figures MIGHT HAVE two or three magic items their entire careers. What most PF PCs dump as useless obsolete junk dwarfs the magical treasures of Aragorn, Gandalf, King Arthur, Galahad, Beowulf..... you name them.
Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.
i can agree with most of this, but a lot of popular western fantasy characters either depend on a handful of extremely high powered magic items (read, item consolidation), being a non-human race with power far greater than a mere human, or something similar to a hybrid of the two. western fantasy is loaded with demigods and people whom carry a powerful magic item or few that might as well be their primary defining feature.
a lot of writers throughout history, focus heavily on either the enchanted blade or the inhuman race the individual is.
So, PCs having access to items they want: Yay or Nay?
In a normal campaign, yes. If I'm doing a low-magic game or shipwrecked on an island game, etc maybe not. It may take a little bit of time, effort or be unavailable in some areas but overall across the campaign they will have an opportunity to buy anything they want.
I used to be staunchly in the No group, having started off with earlier editions where this was the assumption. However over time, I've come to change my mind and appreciate the value of players choosing their gear.
One of the negatives to players choosing their own gear is when they try to optimize and fail. In one game I ran recently one player helped everyone else select their gear and built them around sneaky tricks and "over-powered" combinations. Then they ran into a wraith and discovered "hey none of us have magical weapons, we can't hit this creature". They'd completely neglected the basics.
Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.
Or using some sort of inherent bonus system, as BigDTBone mentioned.
One of the negatives to players choosing their own gear is when they try to optimize and fail. In one game I ran recently one player helped everyone else select their gear and built them around sneaky tricks and "over-powered" combinations. Then they ran into a wraith and discovered "hey none of us have magical weapons, we can't hit this creature". They'd completely neglected the basics.
I'm sure you did not intend to suggest that player ignorance is a reason to withhold character choices. Surely player ignorance is better addressed with education and experience. Unless your wraith example ended with a TPK, it sounds to me like an excellent opportunity to role play some in character learning.
Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.Or using some sort of inherent bonus system, as BigDTBone mentioned.
I probably should have said "probably shouldn't be playing".
I stand by it anyway. Making adjustments to "fix" something as fundamental as the magical item issue is a poor bandaid on the problem.
Besides, the need for magical items goes beyond a few attribute bonuses. They are ubiquitous and used for everything from extending spell durations to allowing parties to carry ridiculous amounts of other "needed" magical junk.
EWHM, I mostly agree with the points you are making, but I do want to point out that this "adventurers are the 1% and have rare and valuable stuff" is just one way to build your character's backstory or manage their career. You can also play your characters as average people caught up in extraordinary circumstances. I've definitely played in campaigns where my character was more street rat digging his way out of obscurity than rare and special snowflake.
One of the problems I have with the current game design is that PCs pretty much have to become the fantasy equivalent of Bill Gates to afford the magical doodads they have to have to be competitive. I like the idea of the John McLain type ordinary guy with extraordinary grit hero as well.
I'm sure you did not intend to suggest that player ignorance is a reason to withhold character choices. Surely player ignorance is better addressed with education and experience.
For some games it might be. Obviously not for mine, since as I mentioned I do allow the PCs to choose their equipment. However bringing up the Pros and Cons of the situation will allow people to select what's appropriate for their game or group.
It might be appropriate for a group who are entirely new to D&D/PF to restrict their choices at the beginning, allowing them a chance to learn the system before introducing more choices. Look at the beginner box with the pregenerated PC characters for an example of this.
Unless your wraith example ended with a TPK, it sounds to me like an excellent opportunity to role play some in character learning.
The wraith example worked out okay for the PCs. Gave them a bit of a scare, but they improvised (burning lantern oil was their main saving grace) and managed to deal with it in the end. Despite being the right CR for the group, it was one of their toughest battles. Good learning experience though.
I also learned from it as the GM. I learned that perhaps I should check what PCs are buying and discuss it with them instead of just getting them to write it on their character sheet.
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Picking on "magic marts" as the problem with the game strikes me as outright silliness. If you really want to play a game where magic items are rare and precious, you shouldn't be playing this one.Or using some sort of inherent bonus system, as BigDTBone mentioned.I probably should have said "probably shouldn't be playing".
I stand by it anyway. Making adjustments to "fix" something as fundamental as the magical item issue is a poor bandaid on the problem.
Oh, I agree; I just wanted to add a proviso.
There are ways to make magic rare and precious in games of the D&D family, but the hard truth is that you have to fight the system to do so, no matter how you do it -- and the results are often unsatisfying in one way or another.