How to forbid an earth elemental form, invicible mage to explore a full dungeon


Advice

Scarab Sages

I have a PC that move all the time invisible in earth elemental form to explore every corner of an underground complex. The NPC are aware of that, And I have 8th level cleric and an 11th wizard to counter that. Do you have any good idea to forbid him that too easy recon method.


a floating island within the lair, stone to flesh arcane traps, i'm sure i'll think of more

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

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Wraiths will make short work of him...

Silver Crusade

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Metal slabs and grates.


Hmm.. Purple Worm that's been Charmed?
Alternatively, any minions with Tremorsense and burrow (Like Xorn, Earth Elementals, and a few others will give him fits. Its an extremely risky move to go off by yourself, especially as an arcane caster, and it might take just one encounter surrounded by minions to make him rethink this. An 11th level Wizard should have access to Planar Binding so a few summoned minions isn't out of the question at all. Also, don't you have to worry about the amount of air you have when tunneling? I know that Earth Elemental form doesn't give you environmental immunity from suffocation, so be sure to note this.


In no particular order -

BBEGs splurge for lead lined walls / permanent walls of force.

Underground complex is surrounded by an underground water source / lava (would need fire immunity)

Alarm spells would let one know something is coming.


Have a talk with him about how its ruining the fun for you and other players?

Scarab Sages

Guard Ankghegs or huge earth elementals. Someone already mentioned purple worms. I think there is a spell that turns folks back into their trueform but the name escapes me atm.

You could also allow guards and wards to extend to blocking this ability, though it is not specifically listed in the spell.

Scarab Sages

What about glyph of warding activating a dispel magic in main tunnel put underground with stone shape? that should trap it. I may also have earth elemental patrolling the underground.
Thanks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Elemental Body (I'm assuming that's the spell he is using) is nice for scouting for it isn't perfect.

Ditto for Invisibility.

The question is where to draw the line. Giving enemies the perfect counter every time is not going to end well.

But if you want to at least throw a few obstacles his way:

Both Invisibility and Elemental Body have a duration. 1 min/lvl. He's not going to explore an entire dungeon complex in that time. What's he using to map the dungeon?

PRD wrote:


Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Suggested counters:

Key chambers are reinforced metal walls/floor/ceiling. Especially if as you said, the NPCs know of the PCs ability. Or even a trapped room set up that way...one side is stone, the rest metal. Wizard goes in and the wall behind him is replaced with a metal one. Now he's stuck. Add appropriate encounter/hazard inside(if it's a room) or let the wizard burn more resources to escape (I'm assuming he has some sort of teleport get out of dodge panic button spell right?) before the duration on his earth glide expires.

Lava
Glyph of Warding linked to Move Earth/Dispel Magic.

Any incorporeal undead can keep up with him and attack. The wizard is not immune to negative energy effects.

Any creature with echo-location, tremorsense.

Just don't go overboard with this. Sounds like the PC is being smart and trying to scout out the enemy.

Liberty's Edge

Simply go crazy with illusion spells. use illusory walls to hide important rooms. you could fiat a spell that makes real walls look like an illusion unless you make the save. he can scout the complex, but knowing this the npcs decided to give him bad information rather than alert him that the know what he is doing. this also works if someone decides to scry and assassinate. I also occasionally use magical traps that are a one shot summoning spell that tiggers on any living being in the area that does not have a passward.


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The dungeon is made from Stone from the Abyss. Melding with it is still possible but doing so means placing yourself directly in contact with the Madness and Evil that is seeped in the very essence of the stone, forcing you to make regular saving throws to keep your mind intact.

Sovereign Court

^that. Or something like it. It's good to allow PCs creative use of abilities, but only to the point it enriches the game, which spoiling a dungeon does not. You're the GM; you don't have to use existing mechanics and bend over backwards to stop high level wizard shenanigans, you can make something up and ascribe it mechanics to achieve your ends.

That being said, it's typically better to say "yes, but" than "no." So instead of "you can't tunnel, there's a Wall of Force," you can use "yes, but the walls of this place are infested with a swarm of tiny earth-dwelling demon swarms that deal 1 con damage per round as they feed on you."

Just make sure the PC can't magic his way past it, because the more times he does that and you come up with something else, the more railroaded it seems. The goal is to keep them on the tracks without making them feel like they're on tracks.


out of curiosity, isnt he blind while earthgliding?

Scarab Sages

If fact,some of you are very right, how can he map the outside, he gotmtremor sense, but loose normal vision underground and can't see where walls and everything are, he know if there are enemies moving, but that all, I am my biggest problem, I give him too much information in that condition.

Thanks guys.


Also, encounters. There is stuff that can see or reveal invisibility (try forcing him to make Stealth checks or risk making a sound. And impose a penalty because he's a walking mound of Earth and Stone walking on floors that most likely are themselves stone. That ain't quiet.

Then hit him with a couple encounters. They don't have to beat him, just scare him enough to run back. Congratulations, now the enemy knows you're here, and is gonna be much more prepared for the Party.


If you really want to throw them a curveball, set more adventures in the city or even start going extraplanar, to avoid using dungeons altogether.

Shadow Lodge

Permanent Wall of Force planted in the foundations of the building making it impossible to pass. Then rule that if you hit it at full speed he takes damage equal to whatever. Make an extra-dimensional demiplane for them to hide on inside the place where the "earth" is made of a solid smelted Iron sphere. Go crazy, there are tonnes (metric I'm sure) of possibilities.


Eretas wrote:

If fact,some of you are very right, how can he map the outside, he gotmtremor sense, but loose normal vision underground and can't see where walls and everything are, he know if there are enemies moving, but that all, I am my biggest problem, I give him too much information in that condition.

Thanks guys.

What i was trying to imply was he in fact does not have tremor sense. I just checked the PRD and the elemental body spells do not appear to provide it. What does this mean? It means as soon as he enters the earth via earth glide He is completely blind. Second watch the rounds of his spells as earth glide is 20ft movement, nothing i am aware of can increase it.


SAMAS wrote:

Also, encounters. There is stuff that can see or reveal invisibility (try forcing him to make Stealth checks or risk making a sound. And impose a penalty because he's a walking mound of Earth and Stone walking on floors that most likely are themselves stone. That ain't quiet.

Then hit him with a couple encounters. They don't have to beat him, just scare him enough to run back. Congratulations, now the enemy knows you're here, and is gonna be much more prepared for the Party.

Oooo, idea for taking out invisibility with mundane methods for villains that know they are facing casters: Bead curtails with bells on them across certain key rooms (bottlenecks maybe?) Doesn't stop earthgliding scenario, but it could be a useful idea for others.

You might want to validate their strategies though. Allow the scouts to map out certain sections of the map in order to allow faster movement through it. Essentially, tunnel system 1, filled with guards that normally would have to be brute forced through but could be avoided with good tactics, and tunnel system 2, which is the railroaded one. For examples of the latter, you would have the rooms right before the alter where BBEG makes sacrifices to summon dark gods (or whatever the plot is), as well as the cages for said sacrifices, and the half fiend dragon pins should be the ones behind the super harsh security with walls made of pure evil that we have heard about. Well, maybe spring one or two small, inconsequential versions of it in tunnel system 1 so you give them the message.

Scarab Sages

I also told my PCs early on in my latest campaign that there are rituals that require quite a bit of money and time but pretty securely block teleportation, DimDoor, passwall, and summoning from happening inside the secured building/castle/structure. This is a logical extrapolation for those who want to secure their castle in a high magic fantasy world. This means that the abandoned run down ruins outside of town probably doesn't have it, nor would the cave full of minotaurs. The castle of the dread lord, the temple of the doom god, or tower of the mad wizard would most certainly have such protection.

This is how I stopped my druid player from ruining every single adventure we ever played. He only gets to spoil 50-60% of them now :)

I did the same thing in a conspiracy laden game in order to preserve some secrecy. In order to stop Detect Thoughts, Detect Lie, and Scrying from ruining perfectly good Evil Plans to Overthrow All That Is Good, I merely said that long ago in my world, a wizard found a way to magically craft a ring that blocked detection alignment, Detect Lie, Detect Thoughts, and scrying. These rings are now commonplace and sell for 500gp, meaning anyone who is wealthy, noble, or in dangerous professions can afford one.

Now granted these two changes only work well because I announced them prior to the campaign starting. That way folks could alter their expectations and character choices if it was going to impact their tactics. The players embraced these changes, accepted them, and in fact most wear the non-detection rings. The rogue in the party even has a booming side business using sleight of hand to swap non-detection rings for fake ones. Of course, playing Kingmaker, where these changes benefit the players as well, might have something to do with their acceptance :)


Mojorat wrote:
out of curiosity, isnt he blind while earthgliding?

I always presumed he could stick his head out, but this would reveal his position. It would also give him cover but not total cover.


Kimera757 wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
out of curiosity, isnt he blind while earthgliding?
I always presumed he could stick his head out, but this would reveal his position. It would also give him cover but not total cover.

To stick your head out of a wall you need to know whete the wall is. In a lot of cases with maps you can guess the next room a bit but if your trying to map out a dungeon it will be difficult when your blind a lot of the time.


A few tapestries on the wall will block him from being able to see anything even if he does stick his head out, and then the tapestry will move. Or a bit of paint, some pictures, or some oak panelling. Carpets, rushes and other litter on the floor. Even the mess made by an otyugh may be pretty impenetrable.


Mojorat wrote:
Kimera757 wrote:
Mojorat wrote:
out of curiosity, isnt he blind while earthgliding?
I always presumed he could stick his head out, but this would reveal his position. It would also give him cover but not total cover.
To stick your head out of a wall you need to know whete the wall is. In a lot of cases with maps you can guess the next room a bit but if your trying to map out a dungeon it will be difficult when your blind a lot of the time.

Even if you do have to stick your head out all the time, it might still be very useful. I mean, as Kimera noted, it would count as constant cover, which means that it would be possible to use stealth fairly consistently (well, obviously not against tremor sense), and it would give defensive bonuses.

I might require a small swim check though to just keep your head bobing at a sneaky height without dropping down too low or having to surface. It is somewhat appropriate, since earthglide lets you move through rock like it was water. Plus it would suck for a wizard, since they lack swim as a class skill and typically have strength so low even elemental form's bonuses provide little help. And I doubt they kept that skill ranked up as they got to a level where they could use that spell. So yes, a swim check in order to use earthglide for surfacing stealth (along with the obvious stealth check).


Greater Shadows who have had permanent See Invisible cast on them. Touch attack STR drain for the win.

Alternatively, rummage thru your notes, roll some dice behind your screen, ask to see the wizard player's character sheet, and declare that the wizard doesn't return from their scouting mission. Then, while you grin evilly, ask the group what they want to do.

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