Advanced Class Guide Review *Rant Warning*


Advanced Class Guide Playtest General Discussion


These are my observation and opinions based on the free play-test content. I made some mention to all 10 "new" classes. Please feel free to contribute or disagree as you like.

Arcanist
The Arcanist is an overreaching attempt to bridge the gap between the innate power of the sorcerer and the studied expertise of a wizard. As to date, we have three arcane classes with spell-casting based on intelligence. Adding another intelligence-based spell-casting class fortifies a common belief that charisma is a dump stat. Furthermore, the Arcanist class doesn’t add anything new to the game. The same, or at the very least similar, effect can be achieved by the much controversial gestalt classing. Overall, a lack-luster attempt to add flavor to the game table, but doesn’t really contribute to any aspect of the game. A charismatic based arcane class, or even an attempt at WotC’s Warlock (pending copyright issues), would be a welcome and refreshing take on arcane casters.

Bloodrager
Bloodrage is only a variant of rage in name only. End the confusion of naming the exact same effects by two or more different names. The main differences between a gestalt Sorcerer/Barbarian and the Bloodrager is the diminished spell-casting and limit spell selection choices. As with the Arcanist, the Bloodrager class doesn’t grant anything new to the game. This class could be better achieved through a new Bloodline or Archetype for the sorcerer. Suggestions for an archetype are as follows:

Bloodrager
Dimished spell-casting
: A bloodrager may cast one fewer spell of each level than normal. If this reduces the number to 0, he may cast spells of that level only if his Charisma allows bonus spells of that level.

Bloodrage: At 3rd level, a bloodrager gains the rage ability as the barbarian class feature, but its barbarian level is considered to be his ranger level –2. This ability replaces the 3rd level bloodline bonus spell.

Rage Powers: At 5th level, a bloodrager gains a single rage power, as the barbarian class feature. It gains another rage power each two levels after 5th (to a maximum of eight rage powers at 20th level). This replaces the sorcerer’s bonus bloodline power at each level.

Something to the above would have served a greater purpose of the class.

Brawler
With archetypes of the Fighter already in place, such as the Brawler (Ultimate Combat p. 44) and Free Hand Fighter (Advanced Player’s Guide p. 105), we really needed another unarmed fighter. This book might as well be called Advanced Gestalt’s Guide. Awesome Blow is a stretch of two or more combat maneuvers wrapped into a single punch. The Knockout class feature could easily be a feat using Stunning Fist as a prerequisite.

Knockout
Prerequisite
: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, BAB +11 or monk level 10
Benefit: You can replace an attempt of Stunning Fist to knock an opponent unconscious. On a successful hit, the opponent must make a Fort save (DC = Stunning Fist DC) or be knocked unconscious for 1d6 rounds.

Hunter
Oh goodie… I couldn’t decide between the Shapechanger Ranger (APG p. 126) and the Beast Master Ranger (APG p. 124), so let’s just jumble them up with a Mrs. Dash helping of druid. When is there going to be an original idea and not just a regurgitation of classes and abilities that you have already given us.

Investigator
Detective Bard (APG p. 81) and Investigator Rogue (APG p. 133). That is all I’m going to say.

Shaman
The Shaman is a class I actually like. It cleverly mixes the Witch and Oracle into a combination that gives spark when one envisions a Shaman. Not really sure on how the Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex abilities will play out and may need some refinement. Maybe instead of “Wandering” there could be extra spirit abilities or hexes along with Greater forms of each.

Skald
Savage Skald Bard (APG p. 84)! It can even incite rage. Did anyone even read all the works that are already published by the company? Bards are amazing at buffing and de-buffing the battlefield and this class has pretty much already been done through an archetype. Come on Paizo, catch up!

Slayer
Though I’m not necessarily fond of the name, this looks to be another pretty solid build. However, I belive this is a class that can be summed up as a Ranger archetype. Also, I believe the fact that you can take Slayer talents that affect Sneak Attack before you actually have sneak attack needs to be addressed (i.e. deadly range and sniper’s eye). I have noticed in some cases that the BAB ratio and Hit Dice don’t exactly match up with the precedent that has been set in previous volumes. Overall, nicely done.

Swashbuckler
Buccaneer (ARG p. 73), Pirate Rogue (UC p. 72), and Swashbuckler Rogue (APG 135)! Albeit two of the three afore mentioned archetypes don’t include firearms directly, it would not be hard to take a simple feat, as they are all terrors of the sea.

Warpriest
Another class that should be an archetype! This is more of what I was looking for while making my Crusader Cleric (UC p. 40), though I was not completely dissatisfied with the archetype either. Furthermore, there is no need for divine blessings. Simply use the domains that are already established, but don’t allow the bonus domain spells. The class has potential, but needs some major tweaking. WotC had this as a prestige class, maybe you should take a look at the precedents set for by others, before issuing a collage of new “classes”.

Liberty's Edge

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Most of your complaints seem to come down to "These hybrid classes are nothing but hybrids of existing classes!" That's kinda the point, actually.

Also, why are you trying to compare things to gestalt? Gestalt is not even close to how things are balanced, it's specifically an overpowered option designed for small groups or very high-powered games. You can't compare single classes to gestalt classes, it just doesn't work.


Craig Frankum wrote:


Bloodrager...This class could be better achieved through a new Bloodline or Archetype for the sorcerer. Suggestions for an archetype are as follows...

Bloodrage: At 3rd level, a bloodrager gains the rage ability as the barbarian class feature, but its barbarian level is considered to be his ranger level –2. This ability replaces the 3rd level bloodline bonus spell.

Say what you will about the Hybrid classes, but at least they FUNCTION.

Craig Frankum wrote:
Awesome Blow is a stretch of two or more combat maneuvers wrapped into a single punch.

Except for the part where it's only one combat maneuver I totes agree.

Also, this thread needs more sarcasm. I just get the feeling there's not enough of it.


It's been a long day... Sarcasm usually comes more around my 1st cup of coffee, not my 10th-I'm trying to keep my eyes open-cup. I'll attempt more as I'm reading supporting threads.

@JRutterbush
I know gestalt is an absurd over analyzing of many of the "hybrid" classes and full aware of how they are OP. I simply referenced it as a similarly to the haphazard mash that many of these "new" classes are.

Other threads really state how amazingly the magus was released and that class should be the basis on how to build NEW-hybrid classes. Also, being a play-test, it will get better. It's how Paizo has delivered such great products over the years while other systems come & go or release new editions when the last one fails... uh-hmm... WotC.


agree with JRutterbush
referring to gestalt might as well refer to a different edition if you're going to refer to a single point for balance i would suggest PF-Society play and void homebrew, e6, gestalt or 3pp.


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Craig Frankum wrote:

Bloodrage is only a variant of rage in name only... the Bloodrager class doesn’t grant anything new to the game. This class could be better achieved through a new Bloodline or Archetype for the sorcerer.

...

Swashbuckler
Buccaneer (ARG p. 73), Pirate Rogue (UC p. 72), and Swashbuckler Rogue (APG 135)! Albeit two of the three afore mentioned archetypes don’t include firearms directly, it would not be hard to take a simple feat, as they are all terrors of the sea.

These statements make it abundantly clear that you did not actually read how these classes work. Are you just going off single sentence summaries or glancing at progression charts without reading any further?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How do existing archetypes interact with these new classes?
Too many abilities count as other class equivalents with regard to detrimental effects, but not beneficial ones such as interaction with feats or items.


Poor analysis, you give the impression that you did not actually read the classes but skimmed the book. Would not subscribe.


Rerednaw wrote:

How do existing archetypes interact with these new classes?

Too many abilities count as other class equivalents with regard to detrimental effects, but not beneficial ones such as interaction with feats or items.

As I read it, and how I would rule if one of my players wanted to use one of these classes now, would be that you cannot use an archetype from previous material. Nothing with these hybrid classes really lines up with already constructed archetypes. I believe that, in the end, by RAW, old archetypes will be unusable with the new classes. This should not stop you from homebrewing, IMO.

However, there has been mention in other threads for the playtest that the ACG will contain archetypes for the hybrid classes.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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This sort of feedback isn't helpful. You haven't even played the classes in question, yet you're suggesting some very radical changes to them, or dismissing them as mixes of other classes.

Thread closed.

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