Goblin Squad Member
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It looks at first glance that a pseudo monk build may be a problem. It appears that a character having a 2-handed melee specialization (a fighter role feature as I infer from the blog) can not have an Evade feat (as this appears to be in the Rouge role feature tree).
1) Are reactive passive feats in specific trees based upon role features?
2) Can a character have feats from other role feature trees?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... if you don't have the Rogue selected, you're not able to give him enough attention to keep him from poking you in your vulnerables.
I really like this. It creates a strong incentive for a Rogue to try to disengage when he is being directly targeted.
The rest of the blog really reinforces, this - I love it :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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-I like the sound of Specialization. Reminds of Specialization from 2nd Ed. AD&D.
-The Master of Opportunity feats sound interesting. It seems to gel well with what I had in my mind of "doing it a different way" than someone else of your class/level.
-Sneak Attacks sounds like I would have hoped it to.
-Stealth...I like that it is not "turn on and completely invisible". The one issue I have with what is written is that while the stealthed character is too far away as determined by the server that attacks won't work against them. I understand melee (at distances over 4-5 ft.) and bows/crossbow type of ranged attacks. What I do not think should be mitigated are area of effect attacks like bottles of acid, Fireball type spells and any other type of attack that blankets an area.
I hope that a distinction as far as the type of attack that is being made is made when determining whether it affects a character in Stealth as some attacks reasonably should (factoring in Dodge/UD as well as other saves) even if the attack can't see them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It looks at first glance that a pseudo monk build may be a problem. It appears that a character having a 2-handed melee specialization (a fighter role feature as I infer from the blog) can not have an Evade feat (as this appears to be in the Rouge role feature tree).
1) Are reactive passive feats in specific trees based upon role features?
2) Can a character have feats from other role feature trees?
The blog just states that Rogues get easy access to evade feats, not that other classes cant have them.
It also specifically states that non-fighters can use fighter opportunity passives, so I don't see why a fighter couldn't use rogue ones, at the cost of the dedication bonus.
I think you could build a very effective psudeo-monk with a fighter weapon specialization role using rogue feats, or with a rogue sneak attack role with fighter opportunity feats.
I also love that fighters get charges to match up with rogue evades. I just hope that there can be light armor fighters who are effective, I don't want to see finesse stuck in the realm of rogue tree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, is the role feature separate from the Role Specialization bonus by slotting only abilities that match to a given role? Do they compliment each other? Is it a replacement?
These are cool, though sneak attack definitely feels like one of those Multi-class combo super powers. Time will tell, I imagine.
I like the stealth mechanic a lot. It will make for good ambush abilities - even if they are more likely to be used against me than for me!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also love that fighters get charges to match up with rogue evades. I just hope that there can be light armor fighters who are effective, I don't want to see finesse stuck in the realm of rogue tree.
Ditto. My destiny twin will hopefully be either a ranger or a finesse/ranged fighter type.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Welcome the two latest Goblins! "Seth Frolich who is our new Technical Artist with responsibilities including managing our pipeline of tools for the art team, and Taylor Hainlen who is a software engineer who will be the newest member of Programistan!" ~ Interesting roles.
Timely blog on the combat "role features" that seem to provide a good deal of finesse in how you approach combat.
Thanks Nihimon for linking/sourcing that. Good band and good title!
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Goblin Squad Member
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-Stealth...I like that it is not "turn on and completely invisible". The one issue I have with what is written is that while the stealthed character is too far away as determined by the server that attacks won't work against them. I understand melee (at distances over 4-5 ft.) and bows/crossbow type of ranged attacks. What I do not think should be mitigated are area of effect attacks like bottles of acid, Fireball type spells and any other type of attack that blankets an area.
I think making the stealthy character translucent between visible and targetable ranges is a pretty good compromise. With various lag/ping/whatever discrepancies between clients, such a mechanic is useful in controlling a rogue's ability to attack and and evade to disappear again, even when people are actively searching for her. It means a rogue probably is best attacking as a group, where fighters, etc, are actively working to keep the targets' attention (ie, not just spamming threat).
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, is the role feature separate from the Role Specialization bonus by slotting only abilities that match to a given role? Do they compliment each other? Is it a replacement?
I think what you're calling the "Role Specialization bonus" is the "Dedication Bonus". As I understand it, the Dedication Bonus doesn't need to be slotted. So, I would say they're completely different.
I'm very hopeful that Role Features might end up eventually representing things like the Archetypes / Alternate Class Features like Scroll Scholar or Warrior of the Holy Light.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm very hopeful that Role Features might end up eventually representing things like the Archetypes / Alternate Class Features like Scroll Scholar or Warrior of the Holy Light.
It's seems reasonable to assume that. The Fighter "Weapon Specialization" that is described in the blog is much more like a Fighter's Weapon Training class feature in TT than the Weapon Specialization feat. There are several fighter Archtypes that trade out the Weapon Training class feature for Alternate abilities. Hopefully as the game grows we will have more customization options in alternate role abilities for the same classes.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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So, is the role feature separate from the Role Specialization bonus by slotting only abilities that match to a given role? Do they compliment each other? Is it a replacement?
Role Feature is a feat that you buy and improve from trainers, and each role has multiple versions (as noted, Fighters get different weapon groups to Specialize in, and Rogues have different triggers for Sneak Attack).
Your Dedication is on top of Role Feature. If you have Fighter Role Feature but a Rogue Reactive, for example, you would not get the Dedication bonus but you would get all the benefits from the Weapon Specialization.
We haven't talked very much about Dedications since declaring their existence months ago because they're intended as a way to keep single-role builds from being overwhelmed by multi-role synergy, so we need a lot more data about how good good those synergies will wind up before really deciding what the Dedications do :) .
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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My spreadsheet senses are tingling...
Would the bonus damages be a flat numerical increase to base damage, a flat numerical increase to damage factor, a percentage increase to one of the above, a flat amount of damage added to the total after other calculations, a percentage of the total after other calculations are done, or will it have its own base damage, damage factor, and damage resistance?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, extrapolating a little here....there are specialists that stack upon stack in say, defensive skills with a shield, perception, dodge, resist, ...very tough to ever hit this character but he has given up some of his offensive abilities and variation in favor of stacked defense.
Likewise, an offensive character could sacrifice defense, dodge, evade, active shield skills, and the ability to sneak in favor of weapon specialization, penetrating damage, charge and "suffer" to inflict as much damage as possible.
Finally, in the blog example, the stealthy rogue can sneak, evade, disengage and "cut throat" to strike quickly and quietly, but sacrifices taking damage, direct combat, and close combat.
For any of these examples to have more diversity (generalization, or what we have called being the jack-of-all-trades) they must give up their stacked specialization; damage, defense, stealth ranged (not discussed yet), casting (not discussed yet) or healing (sadly, not discussed yet either).
So players get to choose; specialization (stacking like skills an abilities) or generalization (having many options available for a variety of circumstances). I like the fewer "action buttons" I saw in the video. That forces you to choose your role, and there should be many to choose from with enough skills in your portfolio.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a "Meat" blog I was requesting a while back, details about how a system of the game will work. Looks like we are finally getting to a point in development where things can be nearly solid and discussed without the need for hypothetic tones. Thank you. Also, welcome to the new Goblins.
As a member who's main will be favoring the rogue style features, I am glad to hear how stealth and back stab will work. Also good to know the enemy so the fighter part is also good info. I like how there is a solid link to the TT and lore while keeping it acceptable and realistic to a MMO environment. From the blog, I am happy with the compromise.
I really like how stealth gives a "guaranteed" 10% buffer before getting detected (assuming those numbers don't change) and yet I like the limit of 10% guaranteed "getting caught" zone that prevents total stealth kills. This lets it be a strong ability, without being overly strong. And yes, "everyone" will want to raise their perception skill as to minimize the distance a "rogue" can get before you see them, but remember one very important fact....Time (and exp) spent on perception is time added to other skills before you "max" them out.
When choose your next skill to spend EXP on, do you level perception to keep me and my kin further away from you, or do you increase a skill directly affecting your profession (crafting, weapons, ect.) and become a better "insert profession"? Oh decisions, decisions... :-)
I have mixed feelings about the "stealthed rogue is unaffected by all attacks" or how ever it was worded. Mixed feelings because while that is awesome (being a stealthy character), it also doesn't make logical sense. I understand from a server stand point why should I be attacked by anything that can't see me, but still.... so I will just leave it at mixed feelings.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, extrapolating a little here....there are specialists that stack upon stack in say, defensive skills with a shield, perception, dodge, resist, ...very tough to ever hit this character but he has given up some of his offensive abilities and variation in favor of stacked defense.
Likewise, an offensive character could sacrifice defense, dodge, evade, active shield skills, and the ability to sneak in favor of weapon specialization, penetrating damage, charge and "suffer" to inflict as much damage as possible.
Finally, in the blog example, the stealthy rogue can sneak, evade, disengage and "cut throat" to strike quickly and quietly, but sacrifices taking damage, direct combat, and close combat.
For any of these examples to have more diversity (generalization, or what we have called being the jack-of-all-trades) they must give up their stacked specialization; damage, defense, stealth ranged (not discussed yet), casting (not discussed yet) or healing (sadly, not discussed yet either).
So players get to choose; specialization (stacking like skills an abilities) or generalization (having many options available for a variety of circumstances). I like the fewer "action buttons" I saw in the video. That forces you to choose your role, and there should be many to choose from with enough skills in your portfolio.
IMHO, that should ALWAYS be the choice. You should always have to pick to focus and specialize to be really good at 1 thing while vulnerable at others, or to generalize and be ok at everything but nothing compared to specialists. I want to be the best assassin. Why would I take defense skills? or crafting, or harvesting or anything other than stealth/perception/kill you quickly skills? My race to "level 20" will be filled exclusively with big damage, high stealth, high perception, high disguise. Nothing else (unless I have to in order to obtain "prerequisites") My sacrifice in doing so will leave me vulnerable if caught since I have little to 0 defense, vulnerable to magic as I have little to none of my own, and will be 100% reliant on crafters and PC venders for gear as I will have no ability to craft my own. These are the sacrifices I intend to make in my quest to be the most lethal and vial creature in the River Kingdoms.
"You have what you can Hold" and I shall hold your SOUL!!!! <evil grin>
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have mixed feelings about the "stealthed rogue is unaffected by all attacks" or how ever it was worded. Mixed feelings because while that is awesome (being a stealthy character), it also doesn't make logical sense.
In old-school war games, we sometimes used [?] counters to indicate possible locations of hard-to-find targets. I see it like that; my character knows there might be a stealthy character in that area, but doesn't have a target he can shoot or launch a charge at. So it's logical enough for its purpose, maybe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have mixed feelings about the "stealthed rogue is unaffected by all attacks" or how ever it was worded. Mixed feelings because while that is awesome (being a stealthy character), it also doesn't make logical sense.In old-school war games, we sometimes used [?] counters to indicate possible locations of hard-to-find targets. I see it like that; my character knows there might be a stealthy character in that area, but doesn't have a target he can shoot or launch a charge at. So it's logical enough for its purpose, maybe.
Sheathed targets (while maybe not in your crosshairs) should always be vulnerable to damage whether accidental, AoE, or intentional (a player knows someone is there, just not exactly where they are). Shot in the area, spamming an AoE...some way to hit the stealther.
This is where tab-targeting fails utterly. If I can only shoot, cast, or swing where I am able to lock my tab, how can you hit a guess at target? Options should be available besides tab-target for this very reason.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is kinda what I was getting at. If a mage, or caster type, suspects an unseen target nearby, why couldn't he "flush him out" with some strategically placed AOE? if he gets lucky, he hits. I have no issue with this. Granted, it largely depends on the way spells and casting are handled in PFO. TT it was ill-advised as spells were limited by slots or spells per day so using a "fireball" to flush out a potential target wasn't a common tactic. But you still could. That is all I was saying. But we will see, it could change between now and EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, I am really confused. there are no classes, but there are roles. If you play fighter role, your character gets fighter class features,
If your charter picks rogue roles, the the charter gets rogue class feats.
And how is this different from classes except there is never multi-class?
No classes,right! It will be interesting how handicapped classes of harvester, crafter or administrator/politician is handicapped (can not pick up a weapon).
lam
Sorry, I am really confused. there are no classes, but there are roles. If you play fighter role, your character gets fighter class features,
If your charter picks rogue roles, the the charter gets rogue class feats.
And how is this different from classes except there is never multi-class?
No classes,right! It will be interesting how handicapped classes of harvester, crafter or administrator/politician is handicapped (can not pick up a weapon).
lam
With a classless system, you have the benefit of not getting sued by Wizards of the Coast for intellectual properties theft not covered by the Open Gaming License. :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Each character can have one role feature active at any time, and changing role features takes enough time that it usually won't be done in the middle of combat. Role features are exclusive; you won't be able to have a role feature from the Fighter role active at the same time as a role feature from the Rogue role, for example.
I'm puzzled by this contradiction or is a duplicate meaning?
Another thing: If you can only have one role feature active at any one time, why are role features put in categories(fighter, rogue etc)?
I must be missing something...
edit: is it because of the dedication bonus?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aeioun, "Role" imho is much better for various reasons:
1. Avoids conflation with "Class" in Themepark mmorpg games.
2. Denotes a more temporal "role" as opposed to a more self-defining "Class"?
3. I like how the use of "role" fits with thinking subliminally about taking on roles in an RPG game.
Even if 2. & 3. are light-weight reasons 1. is good enough reason not to touch "Class" with a barge-poll? I don't know if it also helps with skill-based > class-based and any WOTC association avoided as well?
I'm hoping roles are much broader with these Roles > Combat, Builder, Producer... et al... > (Fighter-> Skills ; Rogue-> Skills ; ... ; ...)
=
Very stoked by the Fighter/Rogue ideas here and cannot wait to either see each in action or see Cleric/Wizard further!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact that you can pick skills (alignment restrictions not withstanding) that may not all fall under one traditional class archetype would be enough for me to choose a different moniker. Class, in most games, tends to funnel your choices into class specific skills. PFO leaves that choice to you. I may end up with skills all over the board, but some I have chosen to train may allow to fill the "role" of a rogue when I needed, without locking me into only playing a rogue "class".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Each character can have one role feature active at any time, and changing role features takes enough time that it usually won't be done in the middle of combat. Role features are exclusive; you won't be able to have a role feature from the Fighter role active at the same time as a role feature from the Rogue role, for example.I'm puzzled by this contradiction or is a duplicate meaning?
The Role feature seems to be the evolution of the "Class feature slot" that was talked about in the "I put a spell on you" blog.
"Your class feature slot (school for wizards, bloodline for sorcerers) provides more and more basic keywords as you improve it, and those keywords are ones that support that specialty's spells."
This is a specific "class" ability that sets your core features, which you can customize with supporting skills from other roles at the cost of your dedication bonus. But there is only one role feature slot, so you can't take both Weapon Specialization and Sneak attack and have them active at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm puzzled by this contradiction or is a duplicate meaning?Another thing: If you can only have one role feature active at any one time, why are role features put in categories(fighter, rogue etc)?
I must be missing something...
edit: is it because of the dedication bonus?
I agree it seems contradictory (or at least redundant) to state "cannot mix two types" when you can only have a single one active. My reading is that there is only one active 'feature' and two passive reactive 'feats' but those can be mixed as you wish:
Since they're reactive feats, players that are primarily focused on another role could purchase and slot them, but would give up their main role's Dedication bonus
Categorizing roles then has to do with dedication bonus, as you thought (and probably also categorizing trainers etc).
p.s. devs: I put up a separate post with specific questions about stealth mechanics
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, I am really confused. there are no classes, but there are roles. If you play fighter role, your character gets fighter class features,
If your charter picks rogue roles, the the charter gets rogue class feats.
And how is this different from classes except there is never multi-class?
No classes,right! It will be interesting how handicapped classes of harvester, crafter or administrator/politician is handicapped (can not pick up a weapon).
lam
Classless refers to the ability to switch between these roles at will (with a small cooldown or something) In a traditional MMO, you pick a class and in order to play a different class, you must make a totally new character. In PFO, you make 1 character and can potentially play every class and learn every skill in the game. Just will take forever LOL.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you have Fighter Role Feature but a Rogue Reactive, for example, you would not get the Dedication bonus but you would get all the benefits from the Weapon Specialization.
It would be helpful if the devs could describe their thinking on the current tree structure for character options. It appears that at the top of the tree is 1 Role Feature followed by 2 reactive passive feat slots. What is after the 2 reactive passive feat slots?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lam, Goodfellow's got it. You can take and use the skills of any class, at any time; however, you pick one class's set of skills to gain a special bonus as long as you have that class selected. You can change whichever is your active class; maybe not at any point in time but at least you can change it frequently and easily.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The fact that you can pick skills (alignment restrictions not withstanding) that may not all fall under one traditional class archetype would be enough for me to choose a different moniker. Class, in most games, tends to funnel your choices into class specific skills. PFO leaves that choice to you. I may end up with skills all over the board, but some I have chosen to train may allow to fill the "role" of a rogue when I needed, without locking me into only playing a rogue "class".
To me the word role instead of class just has a meta-game ring to it. As Imbicatus referred they were probably previously called class features and to me as a PnP player that name has familiar implications that seem to fit the skill descriptions in the blog well... Why not?
edit: I like that armor progression img a lot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When choose your next skill to spend EXP on, do you level perception to keep me and my kin further away from you, or do you increase a skill directly affecting your profession (crafting, weapons, ect.) and become a better "insert profession"? Oh decisions, decisions... :-)
Hopefully, taking damage will break stealth entirely. That and potential spells like Faerie Fire or Glitterdust. With simple additions such as that, then the old concept of Travel With a Group becomes a highlight. The Ranger would make a solid archetype of a stealth-breaker. High perception with a bow and arrow, one quick shot can alert the rest of the group to danger and possibly oust that rogue. The spells above could be a way to do so if you did not wish to inflict damage for whatever reason - or needed to mark multiple targets for your allies at once. Perception, rather logically so, becomes a very good trait for Ranged-focused characters to pursue. Melee types only need worry about it if they go out solo a lot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those looking for more info on wizards should check out the I Put a Spell on you blog I linked earlier. It looks like a wizard's School Specialization will be the equivalent to the fighter weapon specialization, with keywords and bonuses added to magical attacks.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Each character can have one role feature active at any time, and changing role features takes enough time that it usually won't be done in the middle of combat. Role features are exclusive; you won't be able to have a role feature from the Fighter role active at the same time as a role feature from the Rogue role, for example.I'm puzzled by this contradiction or is a duplicate meaning?
Repeated for clarity. Essentially: "You can only have one active at a time, which certainly means you can't have two active at a time." :)
The Role feature seems to be the evolution of the "Class feature slot" that was talked about in the "I put a spell on you" blog.
Sometimes we say class because our roles are named the same as tabletop's classes, and we forget. But the official term is "role" rather than "class" even if we're not consistent in the usage.
AvenaOats is correct about the rationale for using the term role instead of class.