Shatter, what exactly does it do?

[Gauss]

Shatter:

Shatter CRB p341 wrote:

School evocation [sonic]; Level bard 2, cleric 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a chip of mica)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area or Target5-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or
Fortitude half; see text; Spell Resistance yes

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

What it can target:

1a) unattended nonmagical objects made of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain up to 1 pound per level.
2a) single solid nonmagical object of up to 10 pounds per caster level.
Note: No statement that the object must be unattended so it appears attended objects are eligible.
3a) crystalline creature of any weight

What it can target appears to be clear.

What is the effect?:

1b) 5' radius area attack that destroys objects in #1. Will negates (object).

2b) "sunders" objects in #2 (single solid nonmagical object) with a Will save to negate.

3b) 1d6/level sonic damage (max 10d6) to a crystalline creature with a Fort save for half.

What the effect is for #1b and #3b appears to be clear.

However, what is "sunders" in the case of #2b?

Checking how Sunder works (CRB p201) you perform a Sunder attempt and then give damage to an object (subtracting hardness). If the object has equal to or less than 1/2 of it's hitpoints it gains the broken condition. If the object reaches 0 hitpoints it is destroyed.

Seems simple, you do enough damage and the object is either broken or destroyed.

The spell states that it sunders a single object but it then fails to give either a broken or destroyed condition clause or it fails to assign damage. Either condition (destroyed) or damage (1d6/level) are given in the other two cases.

So the question: what is the effect of 2b? Broken, Destroyed, or Damage and if damage how much?

[darkwarriorkarg]

Wording is from 1st edition...

Generally, Shatter just wastes a spell slot.

[wraithstrike]

Well, if it is using 1st edition wording and that wording is now unclear then we need an FAQ. :)

[Gauss]

darkwarriorkarg, that is why I am checking to see what others think it does and to see if there can be a consensus.

[Are]

I believe it's supposed to work like "1b", except targeted against a single large object rather than being an area-attack affecting many small objects.

In other words, I think the "sunders" wording from the first sentence is flavor, rather than rules.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I thought it bypassed damage and straight-up blew a weapon apart, no sunder check needed.

[Gauss]

Are and Ninjaxenomorph,

It is your belief that the wording of the spell is clear regarding 2b?

I could not find anything that clearly indicated that 2b had the same effect (destroy the item) that 1b had. The effect clause for 1b is in an entirely separate paragraph and is specifically relating to 1b. I could also not find any language to connect 2b's effect with 1b's effect.

As near as I can figure, "sunder" is a term without a meaning in this case.

[Kalshane]

My understanding is if the object fails its save, it's destroyed. But I agree the wording is incredibly unclear.

[Lifat]

Yup. I believe that RAI the 2b effect is supposed to mimic 1b, but on a single larger object. But the wording is so unclear that it is very hard to tell.
I've marked for FAQ, because the text is so confusing that noone could ever really know for certain.

[Are]

Gauss wrote:

Are and Ninjaxenomorph,

It is your belief that the wording of the spell is clear regarding 2b?

No, I don't think the wording is particularly clear (rather, it's fairly unclear). But I've always (both in 3.5 and PF) run it as simply destroying the item, rather than using the sunder rules.

[thenobledrake]

The spell is clearly worded, in my opinion. Allow me to break the spell text down to show how I understand it, and why I think it is clear.

Quote:

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

This part is flavor.

Quote:

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such unattended objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

This part describes how the 5-ft.-radius spread version of the spell works, which is tied to the "Will negates (object)" portion of the saving throw line.

The bold I added describes the mechanical effect of the spell and the description of how that effect is achieved.

Quote:

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level.

This part specifies a new type of target, but not a new effect - that means it uses the above (bold text) effect.

This usage is tied to the second "Will negates (object)" portion of the saving throw line.

Quote:

Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

And the last bit specifies the last type of target for the spell and the new effect the spell has upon that type of target.

[Sissyl]

Kills demiliches.

[blahpers]

Looks like it straight-up shatters a single nonmagical object of any composition up to a weight limit. If it's unattended, it gets no saving throw (nonmagical). That's actually quite powerful; it'd work even on steel or adamantine. That option isn't much of a general-use combat option, but I can think of five or six times in my current campaign alone that I could wish I'd had such a spell, not even including the other options.

[Gauss]

Thanks everyone who FAQd it.

[Cyrad]

There's many such spells that need reworded

[Lifat]

Cyrad wrote:

There's many such spells that need reworded

If there are any that are just as unclear, feel free to bring them up in a separate thread and if I agree that they are as unclear (or perhaps even more unclear) I'll gladly press FAQ.

[Gauss]

Cyrad, if you believe a spell is unclear that is what the FAQ system is for. Please, FAQ it. :)

[Lifat]

Yup. I can only concur with Gauss. Just because the system has multiple unclear points doesn't mean specific requests for FAQ on unclear points doesn't deserve attention.

[Gauss]

Thanks Lifat.

[Cyrad]

Oh, don't get me wrong! I totally FAQ'd this.

I get really irritated when they basically copy/paste content from 3.5e without performing quality assurance on it and seeing if the text can be improved.

[Robert A Matthews]

I would rule a single nonmagical object destroyed if you fail your will save. I also rule the entire potion as a magic item, including the flask it is in. FAQ'd for clarity.

[Gauss]

Cyrad, ahhh ok. :)