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The more I think on it, the more I think using the Channel Energy as the central mechanic for the warpriest's abilities might have worked better; whereas the cleric focuses its channel energy power outwards, to tend to the flock (as it were), the warpriest channels energy inwards, to its own weaponry and armor to better defend the faith in distinction from the cleric. There could be feats to allow him to share that with allies (similar to the Channel Selection ability), etc. It would also thus have a more core mechanic, rather than a lot of separate x/day abilities to keep track of.
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The more I think on it, the more I think using the Channel Energy as the central mechanic for the warpriest's abilities might have worked better; whereas the cleric focuses its channel energy power outwards, to tend to the flock (as it were), the warpriest channels energy inwards, to its own weaponry and armor to better defend the faith in distinction from the cleric. There could be feats to allow him to share that with allies (similar to the Channel Selection ability), etc. It would also thus have a more core mechanic, rather than a lot of separate x/day abilities to keep track of.
I came here to say this. The Warpriest's channel should really be focused inward, perhaps with the ability to then focus it outward with a feat for those groups that are using the class as a replacement cleric.
Others have mentioned the lack of proficiency with deity's favored weapon - that should be fixed. (EDIT: Updated in the sticky post.—SKR)
I don't like that Healing Blessing is the only one that can heal itself as a swift action. A divine frontliner should be able to heal itself, especially one that has only d8 hp. Make that ability baseline for the class, and to replace that on the Healing Blessing, heals should act as though Empowered when self-cast.
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Anyone else notice this class suffers from 3.0 Ranger Syndrome?
Weapon Focus, another Feat, 3 1st level spells and a blessing at level 1?
Yes please!
This will be a splash on a LOT of characters, especially Wizards looking for all martial to get to Eldritch Knight, ect.
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I apologize if this has been brought up before, but consider adding the Aura ability to the warpriest. Additionally, it might be helpful if warpriest levels counted as fighter (or fighter -3) for the purposes of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
I second the motion for the fighter counted levels for weapon specialization and Greater Weapon Focus. I'd gladly do the fighter -3.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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This was a decent class, but I felt that the sacred weapon and sacred armor abilities were too similar to paladin sacred bond (and one of the paladin archetypes that did the same thing for armor.) For a class that's a mix of cleric and fighter, it feels out of place, especially when paladin already is a type of mix of cleric and fighter. I'd replace those with the fighter's weapon and armor training, which would go a long way to making this a more martial character who has decent divine spellcasting as well.
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Of all the new classes, this one seems the most superfluous. Isn't a paladin supposed to be a fighter/cleric? Isn't that how it's been for, I don't know, the last 30 or so years of fantasy gaming? :)
If you just wanted paladins to be of any alignment, why not just crank out a paladin archetype that sacrifices an ability or two to remove the alignment restriction?
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Harsk
I'm thinking a Warpriest:
A full BAB
Full martial weapons
Full Armor
With 3 level rotations
LVL1 +1d6 channeling
LVL2 Spell Progression
LVL3 Fighter Feat
Lather, rinse, and repeat.
So lvl 9 Warpriest
3d6 channel heal,
Lvl 3 Cleric spells - (yeah I said it) at full caster level power
3 More Combat Feats
That's my kinda war priest!
(still waiting for that e-mail, Mr. Bulmahn!)
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Some initial thoughts.
I do not understand why the sacred weapon and sacred armor ability are set for the entire day. Was the magus' ability two switch his swords properties each time causing excess confusion?
Secondly I think its a bit weak to just copy / paste the cleric spell list. Inquisitors, bards, summoners, and even antipladins get their own list and I'd like to see one for this class as well.
I've had a bit of an itch to play a cleric of Asmodeus lately, so I think I'll try this class out with the concept maybe with luck I can convert a paladin or two.
I'm also sad that I don't get to detect as evil like a cleric of Asmodeus.
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The focus weapon ability states that if the warpriest doesn't follow a deity, he can select any simple weapon as his focus. Is this correct? If so, what is the purpose of the class receiving martial weapon proficiency, given the class's reliance on a single weapon type? It seems like a better option would be either to remove martial weapon proficiency and have warpriests automatically proficient in their deity's favored weapon, or keep it and remove the favored weapon restriction on focus weapon.
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Please have a look at the Charm and Glory blessings. They have the same level 1 ability, differently flavoured.
Charm Blessing
Deities: Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, Shelyn.
Charming Presence (minor):
At 1st level, as a standard action you can touch an ally to grant an entrancing blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes mesmerizing to her opponents, either out of admiration or fear. This functions as sanctuary, except if the ally attacks, it only breaks this effect with respect to that opponent. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Glory Blessing
Deities: Gorum, Iomedae, Sarenrae.
Glorious Presence (minor):
At 1st level, as a standard action you can touch an ally to grant it a glorious blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes mesmerizing to her opponents. This functions as sanctuary, except if the ally attacks, it only breaks this effect with respect to that opponent. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Am I reading this right?
A Warpriest with this (not uncommon) ability can give this to an ally who can sprit through the enemy warriors and just stand there pounding at the enemy spellcaster, more or less ignored?
A Warpriest of Iomedae (a good option - Glory and Sun blessings are good, Longsword is a fine weapon for focus, can be two-handed) can put Glorious Presence on his Paladin battle brother who then becomes immune to hits from all the mooks during the battle.
Sweet!
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Nix channel energy, give him spell combat.
Also give him the magus fighter training, counting half his levels as fighter levels for taking feats.
Those 2 things will make this class stick out on its own and not just be another cleric or inquisitor.
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Being ignored by mooks is only okay in my opinion. They still get a save to power through it (as per sanctuary) so in cases where you have only two or three highly skilled opponents one of the two not being attacked is likely to save and the other oft has other targets. Its good mind you, but not that much better than other crowd control effects.
Lead Designer
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So folks,
I am inclined to agree on the granting of the favored weapon proficiency to the class. So much so that I am going to go ahead and make that change.
As for the overall power balance of the class, I can see why folks are dubious, but I think I want some playtest feedback before I would consider any serious adjustment.
As for blessings, yes they were intended to be a mirror of the domains, but with a far more combat oriented slant to them (whereas most domains are spell and powers based). There is some really interesting stuff hiding in there and I would hate for folks to miss it, assuming it is just more of the same.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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So folks,
I am inclined to agree on the granting of the favored weapon proficiency to the class. So much so that I am going to go ahead and make that change.
Excellent. Thanks!
As for blessings, yes they were intended to be a mirror of the domains, but with a far more combat oriented slant to them (whereas most domains are spell and powers based). There is some really interesting stuff hiding in there and I would hate for folks to miss it, assuming it is just more of the same.
Ooh. I'd skimmed those in the general rush to cover as much ground as possible. Going hunting now!
They brought back a nerfed version of Close Wounds from 3.5 for the Healing Blessing! Not very sure how I feel about the balancing of that...leaning towards too good. Make's them a much better tank!
Re-posting part of a question which I had originally posted in the Paizo Blog thread:
Some immediate questions which sprang to mind when skimming the document ...
Will the Warpriest's blessings class feature eventually support the Void and Scalykind domains from the Inner Sea World Guide?
In general, my reaction is: looks good! :)
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1. The warpriest should have an aura for thematic reasons alone. The inquisitor, cleric, and paladin get auras.
2A. They should get their deity's favored weapon. With the way the "Focus Weapon" class ability works there is no reason not to have it. (EDIT: Updated in the sticky post.—SKR)
2B. I was also thinking that the class should be able to choose its own focused weapon. That will stop people from choosing deities based on weapons. I am not saying they will always choose what they think is the best deity for this, but I do think some deities will be avoided.
3. They should not have to worry about 4 attributes, but I will admit I have yet to build one so I will reserve judgement, but right now it looks like it will have the same problems as 3.5 paladins, and monks. Maybe having them cast with charisma as mentioned above might help. Since I can see this class leading his deity's faithful into battle and having diplomacy on the skill list this is not a bad idea.
On the other hand it could drop channeling altogether and I would not care. I was expecting a sort of holy warrior class that excelled against enemies of its deity.
4. Right now I think an inquisitor could out damage the class, which is not good since the inquisitor does so many other things well. The class is like a cleric with fighter abilities, but I think it would be better as a fight with magical power to boost it's ability to fight well.
5. The sacred weapon and armor being set all day is not helping. The class is not good enough to have that restriction, and if it was I would rather it be toned down to remove that restriction.
6. I noticed many of the blessing dont list a save. Is this intentional?
Are they SU or SLA's or EX?
7. I know most games don't make it to 20 so it wont matter a whole lot, but that capstone leaves a lot to be desired. I am also breaking my rule of not complaining if I am not bringing a solution. Hopefully the other posters can make some recommendations for that.
8. I plan on going through the blessings later on in detail instead of just skimming. I am sure others will also. Would you prefer one long post, a post per blessimg or for each blessing to have its own thread? Personally I feel like the blessings are weak. I am mostly noting the 10th level major blessing since I don't expect for the 1st level ones to be too good.
Jason Buhlman if you are still around is this class designed more to deal damage or be a utility class? I understand it can probably be skewed either way, but knowing the expectations will help us know what to expect.
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1. The warpriest should have an aura for thematic reasons alone. The inquisitor, cleric, and paladin get auras.
+1
2A. They should get their deity's favored weapon. With the way the "Focus Weapon" class ability works there is no reason not to have it.
See:
I am inclined to agree on the granting of the favored weapon proficiency to the class. So much so that I am going to go ahead and make that change.
2B. I was also thinking that the class should be able to choose its own focused weapon. That will stop people from choosing deities based on weapons. I am not saying they will always choose what they think is the best deity for this, but I do think some deities will be avoided.
Yes, this is a problem. One of my players, for example, is a melee-ish Cleric of Calistria. Whip for fun, morningstar when he needs damage. But I can't imagine many Calistrian Warpriests running around.
Jason Buhlman if you are still around is this class designed more to deal damage or be a utility class? I understand it can probably be skewed either way, but knowing the expectations will help us know what to expect.
+1 to this question.
Warpriest really, really needs to get channel energy at first level. Given how MAD the class is, guided hand is going to be a very popular option and players shouldn't have to spend their first two levels being useless until they get it.
That would put both Weapon Focus and channel energy at 1st level, making a 1-level dip in Warpriest too good for someone looking to take Crusader's Flurry, in my opinion.
Just finished a Marathon Campaign with a Warpriest. Got to Level 18 before he died, admittedly do to bad rolls for reflex saves against a Dragon, but honestly it felt more like I was playing a Crusader Cleric Gestalted with a Weapon Master Fighter than a unique class...
I definitely feel it would be better suited as an Archetype or maybe even split into 2 Archetypes. It is overly M.A.D. especially if you aren't using a higher Point Buy or Roll very good stats.
20 Point Buy.
Human (Basic Type no alternate traits.)
Lawful Good
Iomadae as the Deity.
Campaign was set to go to level 20.
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Well... its disappointing, sort of. I mean the cleric is already really solid, that its hard to pack too much in there.
But I have to say, what I wanted to see was a sort of reverse Spellstrike divine class. But rather than casting a spell on their opponent, they can instead cast a spell on themselves there are all sorts of great buffs available to clerics, but it is often hard to be able to get them cast just before a combat.
If a Warpriest could cast a single spell with range of personal or a single target spell that targeted themselves (like a cure) as part of a full attack action by taking -2 on their attacks... that seems like it would be pretty cool and actually unique.
They could lose the bonus feats for all I care, and the whole Magic weapon/magic armor thing. The only thing I would add aside from this would be effective fighter level = class level for feats that apply to your deity's favored weapon.
The Sacred Armour/Weapon thing would be could as Archetype Abilities that say came with a reduced spellcasting akin to the crusader then make the Self-Buff ability their main feature drop the feats and make it an Alternate Cleric.
Make Blessings a new thing akin to Domains and Inquisitions.
Ok my suggestion for a class ability (as a channel replacement)
Warpriest training: A Warpriest treats his Warpriest class levels as his BAB for the purposes of feat prerequisites. In addition he is treated as having the channel energy class feature for feat prerequisites.
Hows that sound?
The level thing should just be included in Focus Weapon. Not remove yet another ability that at least makes them effective for more Healing and anti-Undead duties.
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My first read through impression when I glanced at was a divine magus. I could have fun with this as I enjoy the Magus a lot.
Looking it over more in depth as I make one to test on friday fro my game then. I'm wishing it had that twist, but I will see on Friday.
Thus far I am thinking it just might be the perfect class to apply variant channeling to as presented Ultimate Magic. That might make their getting channeling a bit more useful as no one in my group uses them as they would rathe simply heal HP damage. So I might try that concept with it.
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Just finished a Marathon Campaign with a Warpriest. Got to Level 18 before he died, admittedly do to bad rolls for reflex saves against a Dragon, but honestly it felt more like I was playing a Crusader Cleric Gestalted with a Weapon Master Fighter than a unique class...
I definitely feel it would be better suited as an Archetype or maybe even split into 2 Archetypes. It is overly M.A.D. especially if you aren't using a higher Point Buy or Roll very good stats.
** spoiler omitted **
Could you give more details on how the class played at various levels and what build you went with? How it performed according to the purpose it was made for?
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Well... its disappointing, sort of. I mean the cleric is already really solid, that its hard to pack too much in there.
But I have to say, what I wanted to see was a sort of reverse Spellstrike divine class. But rather than casting a spell on their opponent, they can instead cast a spell on themselves there are all sorts of great buffs available to clerics, but it is often hard to be able to get them cast just before a combat.
If a Warpriest could cast a single spell with range of personal or a single target spell that targeted themselves (like a cure) as part of a full attack action by taking -2 on their attacks... that seems like it would be pretty cool and actually unique.
They could lose the bonus feats for all I care, and the whole Magic weapon/magic armor thing. The only thing I would add aside from this would be effective fighter level = class level for feats that apply to your deity's favored weapon.
Just want to say. What you are describing is more akin to Spell combat on the Magus. Which lets you cast any spell with a standard action. It operates pretty much as you stated. The variation of Magus for weapons was folded into that.
I do like the look of Magic Weapon/Armor and the bonus feats. That all sort of reminds me of the magus, but without the in combat spell casting abilities and bonuses of the magus. I was expecting that on my first glance at the class as my impression was a divine magus with blessings instead of arcana. I will see how this plays on friday, but right now I see areas that could be improved just by borrowing a few magus tweaks for it, but I want to see how it runs before deciding.
I already had to tell a player to try a class and see how it runs then give how it runs. So I will wait and see how it runs for me with variant channeling on friday.
See this avatar.
This is Duncan a level 6 Inquisitor of ANGRADD with the Anger Inquisition.
He has a ton of skills.
He can use Bane and RAGE at the same time.
I am gonna rebuild him as a WARPRIEST.
Different class but ams far as I see it will not be mass capable a strike combatant.
He will have The War and Law Blessings.
The extra feats? Dunno. Heavy armor prof at least. Maybe throw in cleave.
The warpriest looks more tanky than striker.
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Anyone else notice this class suffers from 3.0 Ranger Syndrome?
Weapon Focus, another Feat, 3 1st level spells and a blessing at level 1?
Yes please!
This will be a splash on a LOT of characters, especially Wizards looking for all martial to get to Eldritch Knight, ect.
I'm ok with this. It is a 3/4 class so you still lose a level of BaB. And flavor wise I kind of like it.
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Earth Blessings seem to be assigned to the wrong Deities (If the Blessings are tied to the Domains of the same name).
Earth is not a Domain for Gorum or Nethys, but for Torag and Abadar.
Also, Torag and Abadar only currently have 4 Blessings associated with them (Artifice/Good/Law/Protection, and Law/Nobility/Protection/Travel), while Gorum and Nethys have 6 Blessings, including Earth.
Couldn't find anywhere that this has been spotted in already - apologies if this has.
I'd ditch Channel Energy in exchange of all 9 spell levels IMO.
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Luck Blessing
Deities: Calistria, Desna, Shelyn.
Unlucky Presence (minor): At 1st level, as a swift action
you can cause an adjacent opponent to become unlucky. If
you succeed at a melee touch attack, that opponent takes a
–2 penalty on AC against your attacks and saving throws
against your spells.
Unlucky Enemy (major): At 10th level, as an immediate
action you can force an adjacent opponent to reroll an
attack, saving throw, or check it just attempted before the
result of the roll is revealed; it must take the lower of the
two rolls.
Quick Channel
Benefit: You may channel energy as a move action by spending 2 daily uses of that ability.
Variant channeling
Slavery/Tyranny: Heal—Creatures ignore fatigue and exhaustion for 1 minute. Harm—Creatures gain a channel penalty on saves against compulsions, pain, and stun for 1 minute.
Charm Blessing
Deities: Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, Shelyn.
Charming Presence (minor): At 1st level, as a standard
action you can touch an ally to grant an entrancing
blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes mesmerizing
to her opponents, either out of admiration or fear. This
functions as sanctuary, except if the ally attacks, it only
breaks this effect with respect to that opponent. This is a
mind-affecting effect.
Dominance Aura (major): At 10th level, as a standard
action you may surround yourself with a tangible aura
of charisma for 1 minute. While this is active, once per
round as a swift action you may issue a command (as the
command spell) to one creature within 30 feet, who must
succeed at a Will saving throw or submit for 1 round.
So.....
1. Swift action to make a touch attack attempt to cause -2 to ac and saves against you.
2. Move action to use quick variant channel Tyranny(which the creature gets a -2 to save from your swift action) to cause channel penalties to saves vs compulsions, pain, and stun for 1 minute. (So -3d6 vs compulsion for example).
3. Standard use Dominance Aura and get to command a creature once per round for 1 minute as a swift action.
This has a lot of potential if I am doing that right. You could ruin someone's day with that combo AND role-play the heck of that scene! Use it as a free trip even on creatures far bigger than you. Use it to call a creature to you that is attacking your squishy magic user and make him provoke attacks of opportunity while doing so.
Anyone else digging this?
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My take on this is that although Paizo is obviously going for a book full of hybrid classes, this class works better as a Neutral/CG/LE version of straight Paladin, with specific Paladin abilities taking their effects from a choice of god and Domain.
So if the Warpriest of Mhar takes Fire as their Domain, they get a Lay on Hands that does fire damage instead of healing and likewise with Channel. Their Aura woud provide Fire resistance instead of fear save bonus. If you allowed a Magus-Spell-Combat-like ability for this alt-LoH you come up with something like Smite Evil without having to hand out unwanted abilities such as giving the Mhar Warpriest Smite Lawful (which few players want, but whose analog would still be available for the handful who do by taking Chaos as their Domain).
Obviously, there would be some wrinkles to iron out, but I think it's likely that Paizo already debated this internally, which might explain why Warpriest was the last announced. I think they decided to prioritize Book Concept over Class Concept in this instance and, personally?, I think that would be A Very Bad Reason™ not to go alt-Paladin with this class.
I just rebuilt my 6th level Anger Inquisition Inquisitor to the WARPRIEST.
I'll have to see how it plays, but he lost alot of skills, BANE
, Judgement AND RAGE!!
He got some cool toys in return but seems more Tanky, where the Inquisitor is definitely a divine assasin of a$$ kicking.
Wait for my , From the trenches report.
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I think the channel ability should be tweaked a bit.
The domains were adjusted to be more 'combatey', why not the channeling?
You could reduce the heals/damage and add status effects like a Mercy, or add like an Aid-like spell effect for those hit by the channel if you're good, or Bane-like if you're evil, etc.
Something along those lines.
This overall reminds me very much of the Divine Champion PrC from Complete Divine, which in my mind is a good thing :)
I feel like when a character sees one of these guys enter the fray, they should clench up a bit. These guys (in my mind, anyway) represent the gods' wrath more than their cleric bretheren.
Let's make em a wee bit more destructive ;)
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See this avatar.
This is Duncan a level 6 Inquisitor of ANGRADD with the Anger Inquisition.He has a ton of skills.
He can use Bane and RAGE at the same time.I am gonna rebuild him as a WARPRIEST.
Different class but ams far as I see it will not be mass capable a strike combatant.
He will have The War and Law Blessings.
The extra feats? Dunno. Heavy armor prof at least. Maybe throw in cleave.The warpriest looks more tanky than striker.
Just to point out Warpriest is already proficient with Heavy Armor
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Maybe Weapon Specialization for free at later levels like the Favored Soul from 3.5?
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That said, the Divine caster classes, Warpriest particularly, have problems other class types don't have because of the god-and-Domain-and-favored-weapon angle which is raised in this thread a few times. (I'd like to play a dwarven warpriest who uses a dwarven waraxe and worships a dwarven wargod. Or maybe an elven warpriest, weilding an elven curve blade, worshipping an elven war god, but...)
To give Divine classes the build flexibility that Arcane classes and Martial classes enjoy, you'd need a perfect Pantheon of deities, offering every Domain/alignment/favored weapon combination possible. That's do-able (if tedious) for alignments and Domains, but then every time you add a weapon (Dogslicer), your headaches exponentiate.
One fix might be to declare some gods alignmentless, so their agents could be of any alignment.
Another might be to grant gods more than one favored weapon and/or to declare a group of weapons as favored. So Erastil might have Bows and Spears as favored weapons, while Ketephys has Bows and Swords.
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Out of the packet, the WarPriest has definitely held the most attention among some of my friends. We got together last night via a G+ hangout to discuss it. Going through the material, we are suppose to get back to go through ti again, these were our initial responses:
1. Though not in full agreement, the overarching opinion was the hope to find a divine caster with a full bab. I know this has already been stated ad nauseum on here already. We discussed the pros and cons of a caster with a full bab; the overarching opinion was that is something preferred to be seen even if it means a significantly diminished spellcasting and/or the removal of channel.
2. Mechanically the class looks fairly good. A number of the options very from being underpowered it seems to overpowered, but they do provide nice rp elements. So kudos for that. We do suggest changing the blessing from being associated to the gods to their domains. A large number of us actually use the empyreal and demonic lords as our focus of veneration. We are kind of at a lost as to which things apply to us as WarPriests.
Some of the initial thoughts were:
--Aid Domian: Zephyr's Blessing : Penalty to range is something that comes up so rarely. But to keep on the same line of thought, perhaps add no penalty to weather conditions also. This would help bring the blessing up a bit.
--Darkness: This blessing does seem to be a bit to powerful with providing constant concealment. Probrably better as the 10th level version of the blessing. Basically immunity to sneak attack and constant chance for a miss chance. Super powerful. Super awesome, but probably something we shouldn't have at 1st level.
--Blessing that aids damage with 1d6 type of damage, suggestion: Make it limited use per day but make it a swift action. Otherwise it seems almost to be a waste of an action economy. It could be wonderful if it becomes made into something like arcane strike. But as it, it seems to be a penalty to use in most cases.
3. Some concern was expressed on concentration checks since this class is a MAD.