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I'm in the camp that doesn't like being tied so tightly to the favored weapon. Apparently this means I don't like flavor, which is a bit confusing. If I didn't like/want flavor, this wouldn't be a problem. I would just choose a god with a good weapon, and that would be that. Problem solved.
My issue isn't that I want the best possible weapon, it's that I want the freedom to choose a god appropriate to my character and still have some options with a weapon. If this isn't meant to be possible, why do Warpriests even have Martial Weapon Proficiency? Proficiency with simple and favored weapons should be sufficient.
I'm also not complaining about things like Warpriests of Desna. I'm totally ok with using starknives (though I think Desna favors starknives because they are stars, not necessarily as a combat weapon). If I made a Warpriest of Shelyn, you bet I would use a glaive. Shelyn's glaive is very important, after all.
But the poor Warpriest of Pharasma (as has already been pointed out a few times) is in real trouble. An undead hunter with a dagger is not going to get very far. And what about a Warpriest of Abadar? I want to run around with a warhammer, delivering Abadar's mighty justice. Does that mean I'm against flavor, just because I don't want to do that using a crossbow? I could play a Paladin, of course, but only if I'm interested in being Good.
I totally understand the rationale for this focus on favored weapons. I also agree that it's one of the few pieces of flavor currently in the class. I still think it's a restriction that is more harmful than helpful for creating cool (and flavorful) characters. I would very much prefer to see this changed to something else.
If it's not going to change, though, at least my Warpriest of Shelyn will still be awesome.
I'd just like to remind everyone that Irori's favored weapon is unarmed strikes. Favored weapons are just bad for a class feature.Because fighting unarmed isn't a thing that exists...
I believe the point is more that unarmed strikes can't normally be enchanted and provoke attacks of opportunity unless you have the improved unarmed strike. Making sacred weapon either unusable or an exception to the norm, and making using it dangerous without an additional feat or special ability being added to the warpriest.
Though I could be mistaken.
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@Shadar Aman - And if you could take a feat to do that, problem solved.
Either the favored weapons are favored, or they aren't. It is like saying "I like Cayden's philosophy, except the drinking part..."
I hear the concerns about some weapons, but part of what the class should be doing is making the weapon itself awesome.
In a perfect world with infinite space each god would get a specific bonus and those daggers would be undead bane, Saranae's Scimitar would be flaming, etc...and maybe some of this can happen.
But if you don't give favor to the favored weapon, that is placing mechanics over flavor AND removing what is really the only unique and interesting part of the class.
I think your Warpriest of Shelyn will be awesome. I would love that glaive to get specific Shelyn like bonues. That would be awesome.
What I don't want to see is what happened to the Magus, where everyone has the same optimal weapon and there really is no flavor or diversity.
I threw out my weapon group idea, and I think brainstorming ideas on how to make the weapons work is the logical next step.
But if you make access to weapons equal and don't give favorable treatment to favored weapons, yes I think you are hurting the flavor of the class.
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@Shadar Aman - And if you could take a feat to do that, problem solved.
Either the favored weapons are favored, or they aren't. It is like saying "I like Cayden's philosophy, except the drinking part..."
I hear the concerns about some weapons, but part of what the class should be doing is making the weapon itself awesome.
In a perfect world with infinite space each god would get a specific bonus and those daggers would be undead bane, Saranae's Scimitar would be flaming, etc...and maybe some of this can happen.
But if you don't give favor to the favored weapon, that is placing mechanics over flavor AND removing what is really the only unique and interesting part of the class.
I think your Warpriest of Shelyn will be awesome. I would love that glaive to get specific Shelyn like bonues. That would be awesome.
What I don't want to see is what happened to the Magus, where everyone has the same optimal weapon and there really is no flavor or diversity.
I threw out my weapon group idea, and I think brainstorming ideas on how to make the weapons work is the logical next step.
But if you make access to weapons equal and don't give favorable treatment to favored weapons, yes I think you are hurting the flavor of the class.
So why is it that all the other holy warriors get to pay no heed to favored weapons but the Warpriest must adhere or he fails as a class?
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I'd just like to remind everyone that Irori's favored weapon is unarmed strikes. Favored weapons are just bad for a class feature.Because fighting unarmed isn't a thing that exists...I believe the point is more that unarmed strikes can't normally be enchanted and provoke attacks of opportunity unless you have the improved unarmed strike. Making sacred weapon either unusable or an exception to the norm, and making using it dangerous without an additional feat or special ability being added to the warpriest.
Though I could be mistaken.
Which is way if you could enchant unarmed strikes because of the nature of the enchantments in this class, that would be awesome.
Just like if Warpriests of Pharasma turned normal cheap daggers into undead bane daggers just by wielding them, that would be awesome.
Or if a Warpriest of Saranae were able to make a common scimitar flaming, just buy wielding it, that would be awesome.
Having favored weapons be awesome because they are the favored weapon of the God is an interesting idea that you could base a class around.
Enhancing weapons generally is something that already exists.
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What about this for Sacred Weapon.
Example: Desna
Favored Weapon: StarknifeWhat if Sacred Weapon granted a bonus to attack to a weapon group tied to the favored weapon of the deity. So a Warpreist of Desna would give a bonus to;
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.
but then perhaps give a slight bonus like +1 sacred bonus to attack with the Starknife?
Starknife isn't in the thrown group?
Starknife isn't in the thrown group?What about this for Sacred Weapon.
Example: Desna
Favored Weapon: StarknifeWhat if Sacred Weapon granted a bonus to attack to a weapon group tied to the favored weapon of the deity. So a Warpreist of Desna would give a bonus to;
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.
but then perhaps give a slight bonus like +1 sacred bonus to attack with the Starknife?
Like most other weapons, the starknife belongs to multiple weapon groups at once...
So why is it that all the other holy warriors get to pay no heed to favored weapons but the Warpriest must adhere or he fails as a class?Why can't other holy warriors lay on hands?
It's a class feature.
That's not really a fair comparison.
Which is way if you could enchant unarmed strikes because of the nature of the enchantments in this class, that would be awesome.
Just like if Warpriests of Pharasma turned normal cheap daggers into undead bane daggers just by wielding them, that would be awesome.
Or if a Warpriest of Saranae were able to make a common scimitar flaming, just buy wielding it, that would be awesome.
Having favored weapons be awesome because they are the favored weapon of the God is an interesting idea that you could base a class around.
Enhancing weapons generally is something that already exists.
I agree with you but, unfortunately, as it is implemented it lacks the flavor you speak of while simultaneously putting a strict limit on player choice. As is now, all warpriests of Pharasma will have to use a dagger or completely miss out on an entire class feature. Not the best design on that specific feature IMO.
I proposed the ability be made to include any weapon wielded with the deities favored weapon getting a more powerful buff from scared weapon, or getting a longer duration. Making it ideal to use the favored weapon, but not required.
Alternately, scared weapon could be activated on any weapon as normal, but is unlimited and automatic when wielding the deities favored weapon (the bonuses used in this way would have to be chosen when picking spells each day to keep it from being too flexible). This would allow the warpriest exactly what you're talking about while also giving the flexibility to use another weapon and temporarily impart it with the power of your deity.
So why is it that all the other holy warriors get to pay no heed to favored weapons but the Warpriest must adhere or he fails as a class?
Why can't other holy warriors lay on hands?
It's a class feature.
I didn't know this class was based around using the Favored Weapon. I figured such a narrow scope would be more fitting for an archetype.
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Like most other weapons, the starknife belongs to multiple weapon groups at once...Starknife isn't in the thrown group?What about this for Sacred Weapon.
Example: Desna
Favored Weapon: StarknifeWhat if Sacred Weapon granted a bonus to attack to a weapon group tied to the favored weapon of the deity. So a Warpreist of Desna would give a bonus to;
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.
but then perhaps give a slight bonus like +1 sacred bonus to attack with the Starknife?
So you need to pick one.
How about this.
So on the one hand, we have the Sacred Weapon Bonus. I would make this always on, rather than needing to be activated, just a flat bonus with that weapon.
Blessing get reduced from domains to a range of bonuses you can add to weapons, based on the blessing. Undead blessing gets access to Undead Bane X times a day by level, Fire domain gets X times a day by level, things like that, with the bonus spells. But no special abilities beyond the weapon bonuses (you'll see why later)
Now since we cut blessings down, we have room for Weapon Groups, again based on the fighter weapon group.
Under each group we include bonus feats similar to ranger combat styles (AKA, no pre-requisite needed). We give these at maybe the same level as ranger.
Then we have special abilities similar to domains with each one, only focused on that weapon group. Thrown get access to returning X times a day, light maybe get crit bonuses...there is a lot of room to do things here.
Now we have a 6 level Cleric/caster class with a special weapon with special abilities.
Your Warpriest of Pharasma's daggers? They are returning and undead bane.
Your Warpriest of Saranae's Scimatar? It's flaming and keen.
Your Warpriest of Iomodae's longsword? It's Holy and she can shield bash.
Your Warpriest of Abadar's crossbow? Reloads automatically and is Lawful.
Things like that.
Thoughts?
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Wait, lay on hands is a silly class feature? Are you serious or did you forget sarcasm tags?
Why not make the warpriest more like the bladebound magus? The warpriest shares a bond with their weapon and armor strengthened by their deity's favor. As he garners more of his god's attention, his god will in turn grant him innate skills (spellcasting, channeling, blessings), as well as boons for his equipment. Examples of divine will and instruments of righteous fury, these hallowed tools will live on in sacred legend.
Each blessing or deity could come with a list of thematically appropriate bonuses for your weapon and armor, and you can select one every so many levels. Maybe a warpriest of fire can make his longsword flaming at will, or a warpriest of Sarenrae could make her shield/armor shine brightly enough to blind enemies. There are more creative possibilities, these are just examples.
I don't think there is another class that becomes so attached to its weapon and armor; it's like the current iteration of Sacred Weapon, which is more or less identical to the paladin's Divine Bond, turned up to eleven. The weapons and armor aren't powerful because they belong to the warpriest, but because they have become artifacts of the church, imbued with godly power.
Think of it like Iron Man; Tony Stark's "power" is his intelligence, but without tools borne of that intelligence, he is just a really smart guy. That doesn't mean he can't solve problems without the Iron Man armor, but that he is most powerful while using it. Similarly, the warpriest is a fighter of great skill no matter his equipment (and he has his own divine abilities), but he is at his best when working with the products of his godly devotion.
This setup not only gives the warpriest a more unique, flavorful feel, but it might also solve the whole favored weapon debate rather elegantly; maybe certain empowerments are only available if you use your diety's favored weapon, or something.
What do you guys think?
Well, I think people would still b~+$# about being shacked up with a star blade unless--as I suggested earlier--"bad" weapons get extra bonuses versus "good" ones.
I like making the class more like magus. *begins chanting for spell combat but only for harmless spells*
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I think the signal over noise ratio is way out of hand for providing meaningful feedback for the last several hundred posts.
I think it has been firmly established that there are two main camps of Favored Weapon Vs Non-Favored Weapons.
I think both groups have expressed a strong opinion about this issue.
There is no way that the developers have failed to see that this is an issue for people.
Please let us stay on topic of the Warpriest Class. Obviously all of you want it to succeed, so lets keep it a civil discussion and move on from this topic. Please.
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I actually finished my playtest after couple sessions. I am now convinced that the warpriest is nothing that can't be achieved by fighter cleric muliclassing at levels less then 10. Since that where 90% of my gameplay happens my further interest in the class is nill. I don't expect that whichever dev fell in love with favored weapon as a signature mechanic will back off. I'm allowing myself to be surprised, but am not hopeful. I won't be spending any more thought on it until I see a revision.
I think the signal over noise ratio is way out of hand for providing meaningful feedback for the last several hundred posts.
I think it has been firmly established that there are two main camps of Favored Weapon Vs Non-Favored Weapons.
I think both groups have expressed a strong opinion about this issue.
There is no way that the developers have failed to see that this is an issue for people.
Please let us stay on topic of the Warpriest Class. Obviously all of you want it to succeed, so lets keep it a civil discussion and move on from this topic. Please.
I second this motion.
There are lots of interesting things to talk about. Do we think the blessings are balanced?
I think the signal over noise ratio is way out of hand for providing meaningful feedback for the last several hundred posts.
I think it has been firmly established that there are two main camps of Favored Weapon Vs Non-Favored Weapons.
I think both groups have expressed a strong opinion about this issue.
There is no way that the developers have failed to see that this is an issue for people.
Please let us stay on topic of the Warpriest Class. Obviously all of you want it to succeed, so lets keep it a civil discussion and move on from this topic. Please.
I second this motion.
There are lots of interesting things to talk about. Do we think the blessings are balanced?
Relatively. The Battle Companions could use a slight buff. Getting Summon Monster 4 at 10th level is a bit late. Though with a solid party and area buffs I'm sure its good enough.
Design Manager
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Nate, I think because of the Brawler statement being made, you can extrapolate that. It hasn't been stated, but it isn't considered a change to Brawler, so it should be for all of them.That is a pretty bold statement. It might end up being true, but I would definitely suspend judgement until that is made as a blanket statement.
We have no real way of knowing at this point if that applies to all of these hybrids or just to the Brawler.
A similar statement was made about the Bloodrager. I think the whole purpose of making these advanced classes was specifically so that they all would count as both base classes for qualification purposes.
I think the signal over noise ratio is way out of hand for providing meaningful feedback for the last several hundred posts.
I think it has been firmly established that there are two main camps of Favored Weapon Vs Non-Favored Weapons.
I think both groups have expressed a strong opinion about this issue.
There is no way that the developers have failed to see that this is an issue for people.
Please let us stay on topic of the Warpriest Class. Obviously all of you want it to succeed, so lets keep it a civil discussion and move on from this topic. Please.
I am not sure if it is exactly that simple. I think a lot of people would come around to it if there were some mechanic tied to specific weapons that made some weaker weapons competitive.
Rather than discuss that, though, allow me to discuss the state of the dialog. I think things got so heated because people (I think reasonably) criticized the class for rewarding war priests of certain deity's because they are able to benefit from their class features more readily.
Some people like the mechanic though. They think using your deity's weapon is cool (as I do actually). However, they voiced this by saying "role play harder nooooooooobz", and proceeded to hem and haw at people who could not learn to live with fighting things with a dagger.
This really went to hell because this gets to the heart of what is a real schism in the tabletop gaming community: those who look at the rules for balance (those who like to think about theory-craft; those who like to think of--if not the best character build possible--the best possible character build for a concept that they like) and those who wish theory crafters could get out of the community so we can get down to the real business of pretending to be orcs.
I will admit that I may have helped to degenerate the dialog myself. But that is my nature, frog. That is why my icon looks like half elf Anthony Jezelnik.
Can't we just all get along and implement the rules exactly as I think would be best?
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Outside of a couple of bloodlines, all Spontaneous casters use Cha. It's part of the concept. You are using your force of personality to cast spells. They come from within. I don't think this is the right route for this, as you are a divine warrior for a god (Oracles are ideas/ideals/sometimes gods and they may not know it)
There's an assassin and an inquisitor out here who would like a word with you. ;)
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Can't they just make them all do the same damage? Make it some magical effect, blah blah. Then there are warpriests for deities other than gorum.
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I guess I should just consider it lucky each deity doesn't have a favored armor.
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I guess I should just consider it lucky each deity doesn't have a favored armor.
Favored Armor: Pantless. Nothing could be more terrifying... What do I even enhance!?
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There are lots of interesting things to talk about. Do we think the blessings are balanced?
I'm finding the low level blessing vary in power quite a bit from each other. Also I would like for the blessings to feel more active.
The Warpriest should be out doing things to their enemies, swinging their weapons, or pronouncing judgements or something along those lines. They seem like a very active class in concept "warpriest". The standard action to buff someones weapon or give a person a bonus is too passive. It doesn't feel right to me.
The strength swift for a bonus is okay, the healing blessing swift action heals are great. They feel like something that assists them in their job and feel more active.
I think this has also been alluded to by people wanting some kind of spell combat mechanic. But I'm just trying to evaluate the abilities as written so far.
The greater blessings for the most part are more active, summoning a creature to help, making enemies re-roll etc...
Yes there will be buffs, I just wish more of them were more active or more immediately warlike. I also think a warpriest should get more of them.
Perhaps not, but it's worked well for Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally.
Oladon is wondering what the Liberation blessing's minor ability does. Specifically the emboldened part:
Liberation (minor): At 1st level, as a swift action you
can ignore impediments to your mobility for 1 round,
as freedom of movement. You may activate this blessing
even if you’re unable to take actions, but not if you are
unconscious.
If you can't take actions, then what would activating FoM do?
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Perhaps not, but it's worked well for Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally.
Do we really want all the classes to look the same but for reskinning?
Because I can think of few things in the world of gaming that would be less interesting the homogenization to avoid complaining people who covet that extra point of damage you could get.
Et tu, Cheapy? Et tu?
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Design Manager
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Why not make the warpriest more like the bladebound magus? The warpriest shares a bond with their weapon and armor strengthened by their deity's favor. As he garners more of his god's attention, his god will in turn grant him innate skills (spellcasting, channeling, blessings), as well as boons for his equipment. Examples of divine will and instruments of righteous fury, these hallowed tools will live on in sacred legend.
Each blessing or deity could come with a list of thematically appropriate bonuses for your weapon and armor, and you can select one every so many levels. Maybe a warpriest of fire can make his longsword flaming at will, or a warpriest of Sarenrae could make her shield/armor shine brightly enough to blind enemies. There are more creative possibilities, these are just examples.
I don't think there is another class that becomes so attached to its weapon and armor; it's like the current iteration of Sacred Weapon, which is more or less identical to the paladin's Divine Bond, turned up to eleven. The weapons and armor aren't powerful because they belong to the warpriest, but because they have become artifacts of the church, imbued with godly power.
I like this.
Tie the various Blessings to Fighter Weapon Groups so that your Favored Weapon can actually have a big impact on your flavor and playstyles.
Perhaps not, but it's worked well for Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally.Do we really want all the classes to look the same but for reskinning?
Because I can think of few things in the world of gaming that would be less interesting the homogenization to avoid complaining people who covet that extra point of damage you could get.
Et tu, Cheapy? Et tu?
It's homogenization in a sense, but it also allows more than one build for the warpriest. Rather than everyone being the greatsword god, or the longbow god, or whatever, we can have warpriests of Desna who are just as effective.
This sort of ability would allow a greater variety of character builds, which would, in my opinion, cause a net gain for the breakdown of homogenization.
I still feel the War Priest should have its own spell list similar to how the Magus and Inquistor does. Why does War Priest need Summon Spells he should focus in on battle.
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Perhaps not, but it's worked well for Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally.Do we really want all the classes to look the same but for reskinning?
Because I can think of few things in the world of gaming that would be less interesting the homogenization to avoid complaining people who covet that extra point of damage you could get.
Et tu, Cheapy? Et tu?
It's homogenization in a sense, but it also allows more than one build for the warpriest. Rather than everyone being the greatsword god, or the longbow god, or whatever, we can have warpriests of Desna who are just as effective.
This sort of ability would allow a greater variety of character builds, which would, in my opinion, cause a net gain for the breakdown of homogenization.
Not if all builds are functionally the same. That is 4E logic where we call it something else, but it is exactly the same thing.
There are lots of builds that you can make that aren't the great sword of Gorum when the bonuses are the same. The greatsword of Gorum isn't even arguably the best option, if the bonus applies to all weapons of that type, since this would allow equal bonuses to each weapon while TWF for the same cost.
Further, by this logic we should throw most weapons out of the game because who would want a dagger.
It's flawed and faulty logic.
I described above a buffet style mechanic that allows you to take a bit from here and a bit from there to build out something that will actually both provide diversity and make flavor sense.
With a single feat, if someone really wants the flavor they can have it.
Getting rid of an idea because you can't power game it is bad design, IMHO.
Perhaps not, but it's worked well for Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally.Do we really want all the classes to look the same but for reskinning?
Because I can think of few things in the world of gaming that would be less interesting the homogenization to avoid complaining people who covet that extra point of damage you could get.
Et tu, Cheapy? Et tu?
It's homogenization in a sense, but it also allows more than one build for the warpriest. Rather than everyone being the greatsword god, or the longbow god, or whatever, we can have warpriests of Desna who are just as effective.
This sort of ability would allow a greater variety of character builds, which would, in my opinion, cause a net gain for the breakdown of homogenization.
Sort of like how the Monk and Brawler get scaling unarmed damage, when the Warpriest wields his Favored Weapon it also scales?
I think it would also be a net gain and validate a good many a build.
As for the Liberation(Minor) ability, maybe it lets you ignore Paralyzed?
Ciretose, can you link your ability?