Adding Dex to damage, limited by your Swashbuckler levels means that Swashbucklers are going to suck for the first 5 levels or so until their Swashbuckler levels overtake their Dex modifier.
If that were the case, people would just take Dervish Dance anyway, because you get the Dex bonus to damage immediately, instead of having to wait for 5 levels.
They have to wait three levels for Dervish Dance anyway, due to the skill requirement. I can't think of a better solution right now, other than increasing it to 2x Swashbuckler level.
|
Summarizing some thoughts from my blog
The big design problem I can see with the swashbuckler is that the entire concept of the class is it uses light weaponry. It is very unlikely there will be a swashbuckler who does not use a finesse weapon. However, the class doesn’t get weapon finesse until 2nd level (called swashbuckler finesse).
It’s like telling people “okay, you’re going to have to retrain at 2nd level. Suck it up.”
As some basic weapon finesse the ability doesn’t make the character better per se so much as make them as competent as anyone else at hitting it’s not that overpowered. However, as swashbuckler finesse is a class feature it would be easy enough to have a lesser version of swashbuckler finesse at first level (say, applying to a single weapon) and then increasing bonuses at higher levels.
According to the text of the Bonus Feats feature, the swashbuckler to count as a fighter for feat prerequisites. I believe this allows the swashbuckler to take fighter options like weapon specialization, but some clarification would be nice (such as using weapon spec as an example).
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Question: exactly why is it that the designers feel that multiplying this extra damage on a crit is a bad thing for the game?We don't do that with precession damage or extra damage, and the fact that it scales, and that you can double it yourself means it doesn't need to be doubled, tripled, or quadrupled again.
We don't do that with precision or extra damage
IIRC, this was a change that came very late in 3.5; in the Rules Compendium, I think. Before that, all flat damage multiplied, no extra dice multiplied.
If we see 2d6+12+1d6(19-20/x2), we know that a confirmed crit does 4d6+24+1d6.
But if a swashbuckler does 1d6+12(15-20/x2), what damage does he do on a crit? We don't know, without reverse-engineering! This is a needless and arbitrary nerf to precision damage, making it worse than other types of damage.
the fact that it scales, and that you can double it yourself means it doesn't need to be doubled, tripled, or quadrupled again.
Smite Evil scales, but the damage is still doubled.
Weapon specialisation, Weapon Training, etc. conceptually add damage because of the skill of the user, just like the swashbuckler, yet all those bonuses get multiplied on a crit.
Power Attack damage bonuses get multiplied on a crit.
All other flat bonuses get multiplied on a crit.
Why does everyone else's +12 damage get multiplied on a crit, but mine doesn't? It seems arbitrary, and counter to the usual crit rules of flat bonus multiplies/extra dice don't.
|
Whenever I pop into this forum I check Jason's update first, that way i can keep up to date on everything that is being updated. Just wanted to say, thanks for seeing everything that we're talking about and working with it Jason. It's good to see bucklers and such be viable with the class features and to have the chance to use some of the content that is already published for the playtest.
They have to wait three levels for Dervish Dance anyway, due to the skill requirement. I can't think of a better solution right now, other than increasing it to 2x Swashbuckler level.
You can also dip 1 level of dervish dancing bard, which costs you 1 bab, but gets you effectively 2 feats, and a +2 to will save, the ability to get a +2 attack and damage if you have a spare standard action to start the barding tapdancing...
I think i may have just talked myself into going that route.
|
|
I still say two weapon fighting should be allowed with Precise Strike.
Rogues still get sneak attack (precision damage!) if they attack with two weapons (assuming the attacks qualify).
Rangers get Favored Enemy damage bonuses if they attack with two weapons.
Fighters still get Weapon Training, Specialization, etc. when they attack with two weapons.
Not allowing precise strike when wielding two weapons is both inconsistent with bonus damage (even bonus precision damage!) from other base classes including less combat-oriented ones like rogue and inconsistent with actual rapier combat, for instance like this. (I'm on the left, and that particular "precise strike" would not have been possible without the use of two weapons - in fact it's the dagger making the riposte while the rapier binds.)
This really isn't a balance issue as far as I can tell; a DPR-focused two-hand weapon fighter easily has his level and more in bonus damage at any given point out of Power Attack and all the class's sources of bonus damage (heck, a sword and board fighter can get close as well without even trying too hard), and a swashbuckler doesn't really have that going for him since the class depends on finesse weapons. Combine this with the fact that the swashbuckler is a significantly softer target if played to type and it really needs to be able to put out damage in a hurry to justify its place in melee - if the lightly armored guy with an oversized sewing needle is going to just stand there and trade blows with some big ol' bruiser monster (let's say a giant, just to make parry harder), he'd better make them good ones if he's not going to just get converted to fine paste. Combine that need with the fact that rapier and dagger is one of the defining features of the class's archetype (in the literary sense, not the rules sense ;)) and the limitation just seems arbitrary. Allowing bucklers is a good start, but they're not the be-all and end-all of secondary armament in rapier combat.
You can also dip 1 level of dervish dancing bard, which costs you 1 bab, but gets you effectively 2 feats, and a +2 to will save, the ability to get a +2 attack and damage if you have a spare standard action to start the barding tapdancing...
I think i may have just talked myself into going that route.
That route also will, most likely, give you 2 Spells that would help your mobility greatly, Expeditious Retreat and Featherstep, =)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
An explaination of my thoughts
While I'm not sure if this has again cropped up a ton since I posted yesterday, as 7 pages have popped up since then, I would like to explain my thoughts on this more thoroughly. Similar to the Gunslinger getting Dex to Damage with Guns, I thoroughly believe that Swashbucklers would benefit greatly from Cha to Damage instead of Level to Damage as Precision Damage.
Where the idea is from.
Because this is not entirely my idea.
The idea to Cha to Damage is from the Dashing Swordsman Prestige Class featured in the popular D&D webcomic, Order of the Stick, found here. This PrC, taken by the group's Bard, is somewhat of a silly joke, but seriously allows the character, an intellectually inept, charismatic Bard, a way to actually help in melee - though in the fan-made PrC, it is cha to attack, not damage.
This quote is directly from the comic, however, not the fan-made PrC designed after it:
The Dashing Swordsman class will teach you to hardness your natural charm to turn you into a real bonafide wisecracking, swashbuckling, damsel-saving action hero! Among other abilities, it will allow you to substitute your Charisma bonus for your Strenth bonus to damage when you wield a reapier - as long as you can make a witty pun or spout a catch-phrase when you attack.
Seen here.
The main ability of his PrC is this:
You gain the ability to strike your foe with your sheer force of personality. Whenever you hit a foe with a weapon to which you can apply the Weapon Finesse feat, you may make a witty pun or spout a catch-phrase. You must be able to speak in order to do so, and your foe needs to be able to hear and understand you. If you do, then you add your Charisma modifier, in addition to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, to the attack roll.
Now, obviously, there a few things about this ability that need changing. First off, we don't want Cha to Attack, for that is supplied by Weapon Finesse - a Swashbuckler should still have a high Dex, as it is both mechanically and thematically sound. Second off, the witty pun or catch-phrase should be taken out. While hilarious, it is too open to DM-discretion to allow.
Instead, make this ability add Cha to damage when using a finessable light or one-handed piercing weapon. This ability should replace Precise Strike - though the name could remain the same.
In my personal opinion, Precise Strike should instead be as follows:
As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to add double her Swashbuckler level to her damage on the next attack. This must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs.
While here is the old Precise Strike, with the amendments, for reference.
As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs.
----------------------
Why I believe this would be better than the current ability.
A comparision with the Gunslinger.
TL;DR: As-is, a 5th Level Gunslinger averages out doing more damage than an equally armed Swashbuckler, while hitting more accurately and being safely at range. With my change, the swashbuckler still does less damage per round as the Gunslinger, but can more easily perform "Hit and Runs", running in, spending some Penache and hitting hard, then retreating. Spending his penache on the Precise Strike Deed will feel more rewarding, as well.
---
At 5th level, Gunslingers gain their dex to damage with one type of firearm. Generally, the average gunslinger has 18 dex if he's well built - this allows him to do an additional 4 damage on every hit. Gunslingers, as well all know, are exceptionally accurate, thanks to their High BAB, touch attacks, and that they are SAD. Once they get this ability, they hit like trucks, they can hit just about anything reliably, and they become absolutely terrifying on the battlefield. I know this from experience, as I've DM'd for a gunslinger before.
At levels 1-4, their damage is noticably smaller - for a typical pistol wielding gunslinger, its typically 1d8 at the bare minimum, though most take Deadly Aim for an additional 2 damage per shot at 1st-3rd level. As a result, they don't hit hard, but they nearly always hit. When they crit, however, they crit hard. That same gunslinger will be critting for 4d8+8.
Now, where Gunslingers lack in early damage, they are strong in accuracy. Swashbucklers, meanwhile, do not have that luxury - their attacks are normal attacks at these low levels. They do, however, eventually gain excellent critability - in fact, one could easily say that their combat style focuses on crits at later levels.
At low levels right now, not including my changes, the average Swashbuckler, using a Rapier, would do 1d6 damage on average, if he has 10 strength. If he decided to go the bare minimum for Power Attack (A reasonable assumption), it would instead be bumped up to 1d6+3 - in this, he would average the same as the above mentioned Gunslinger, but with one major difference. He can't hit nearly as accurately, since his attacks aren't touch.
Now, this is low levels. Let us move these two characters to level 5.
The Gunslinger, now having Deadly Aim and Gun Training (And Rapid Reload), is now dealing 1d8+8 to his damage - while maintaining a +7 Touch Attack. The Swashbuckler, meanwhile, is doing 1d6+10, with a +7 standard attack. This, suprisingly enough, averages the Gunslinger out at 12.5 and the Swashbuckler at 13.5.
However, this brings in another point. This particular gunslinger is obviously going pistols - we're not using the Pistolero Archetype for simplicity, though he would probably be using that too. In addition, he would almost undoubtly have a Mwk Double Barreled Pistol by now, if he's worth his salt - this weapon is equivilant of a +1 Rapier, a weapon the Swashbuckler would likely have by now as well.
Now, taking both of these into account, here is the new math. The Gunslinger now has two attacks per round using his two barrels. This lowers his attack to +4/+4 - but for touch attacks, that is still quite sufficient for his needs. Now, considering he hits with both shots, he is now doing 2d8+16 damage, or average 25 damage, per round. The Swashbuckler, meanwhile, is doing 1d6+11, or 14.5 with a +8 to attack. Though, by then, he would also be critting far more often (15-20), which would raise his average damage.
All Attacks are hit except misfires and natural 1's:
Gunslinger = 40 Attacks, 2 crits, 6 misfires, Using Alchemical Paper Charges
32(1d8+8] + 2(4[1d8+8])/20 (2 attacks per round)
25 Damage per Round
Swashbuckler = 20 attacks, 6 crits, 1 miss
13(1d6+11) + 6(2[1d6+6]+5)/20
~16.6 Damage per Round
As you can see, the Gunslinger not only comes out on top, but he is likely hitting more often - and at range. This is even including the 15% misfire rate of the Gunslinger using a Double Barreled Pistol with Alchemical Paper Charges.
Using my changes, and considering a +4 to his damage attribute (Cha or Dex, depending on which way we went), we would only see a ~.25 per round increase in damage. Certainly not worth writing home about!
However, now we need to take into consideration that the Swashbuckler will be regaining Penache left and right due to his 30% crit chance. As a result, for five of those 20 attacks, he can reliably spend a grit point to add +10 damage per attack. This would not only increase his damage by 3 per round (Still below the Gunslinger, though), but allow him to make deadly attacks relatively reliably, almost on demand.
As a result, while this change is relatively paltry when you do the math, it will feel more substantial in actual gameplay at level 3+, even if the math says otherwise - I'll be trying this out on a roll20 test here soon to validate - or disprove - this in actual gameplay.
========================
Afterthoughts:
I hope I didn't drone on too much, but those are my thoughts regarding why Swashbucklers should gain Cha to damage - obviously, there could potentially be many more factors on this, but I tried to stay relatively on target for this.
One big thing about Swashbucklers, as everyone seems to be talking about, is that many people want to use Dervish Dance with their Swashbucklers - that feat is currently the only way to get dex to damage, exlcuding Mythic abilities. The fact that Mythic Weapon Finesse allows Dex to Damage seems underwhelming as it is, as I believe it should be nonmythic, something like Improved Weapon Finesse, but that is a discussion for another time.
This class is already hedged into a highly specific build - at least allowing Cha to damage will alleviate that, allowing players to avoid having to go into Dervish Dance or some other way simply to allow their main stat a way to increase their damage.
Plus, allowing Cha to Damage would allow an even more 'charisma' oriented type of Swashbuckler - Dazzling Display and Intimidate become even more attractive at that point, as does Improved Feint and bluff skills. I don't like having to have Power Attack as a Swashbuckler personally.. but besides giving Swashbucklers Cha to damage simply by using Weapon Finesse, and then adding Precise Strike as it currently sits on top of that, I don't know how to go about that.
Honestly, I wouldn't say no to that suggestion, either! I will be testing that third option out, as the idea just crossed my mind as I was writing this.
Cheers!
Power Attack or something like it is perfectly justifiable for a Swashbuckler, aiming for weak points that are harder to hit, or putting more effort into a slower but more powerful thrust.
I like that this class is actually doing something with Intimidate. However, I feel that Menacing Swordplay ought to upgrade at some point to a Free Action, because all these Swift Actions are crowding each other.
Also, Motivating Display and Violent Display should just be available generally.
Oh also I would like to add, if it hasn't been mentioned, that a shield's Armor Check Penalty counts as a penalty to Weapon Finessed weapons - until the Swashbuckler can grab a Mwk Buckler, thats a -1 to their attacks.
A few of my players have missed that before, and they were sad when they found out about it. They wanted to make a dextrous Cleric of Cayden Cailean a while back.
..Working on making my Swashbuckler tests.. and I'm finding that I am extremely hedged into a single build in order for it to get it working well.
Here is the playtest one, using rules as-is:
Julio, The Dashing Swordsman
Favored Class Swashbuckler
Favored Class Bonus +1 Skill PointExperience:
Experience to Next Level:Male Taldan Human Swashbuckler 1
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +4
-------
AC 18 (Touch 14, FF 14)(+3 Armor, +4 Dex, +1 Shield)
Hp 11 (1d10+1[Con])
Fort +1, Ref +6, Will +0;
Defensive Abilities
-------
Speed 30 ft
Melee Rapier +3 (1d6+2/18-20x2) or Dagger +3 (1d4+2/19-20x2)
Ranged Dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20x2/10ft)
Special Attacks Penache (2), Deeds (Daring-Do, Opportune Parry, Riposte, Recovery)
-------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +1, CMB +3, CMD 17
Feats Combat Expertise(1st), Combat Reflexes(Human)
Skills (7 - 4[Base]+1[Int]+1[Favored]+1[Human]) Acrobatics [1] +8(+6), Bluff[1] +7, Intimidate[1] +6, Escape Artist[1] +8(+6), Diplomacy[1] +6, Perception[1] +4, Sense Motive[1] +4
Languages Taldane (Common), Elven
SQ
Traits Fencer, Fast Talker
Racial Skilled, Bonus Feat
-------
Fencer(Trait): +1 to Attack of Opportunities with bladed weapons.
Fast Talker(Trait): +1 to Bluff. Bluff is a Class Skill.
-------
Items: Combat Gear: (Studded Leather Armor, Buckler, Rapier, Dagger [10]); Consumables: (); Other Gear: (); Animals (); Teams (); Wealth: (0 pp, 115 gp, 0 sp, 0 cp)Carrying Capacity:
Light (0-58); Medium (59-116); Heavy (117-175);Current Load: 37 lbs (Light)
Thoughts: High survivability, low offensive capability - hedged into Combat Reflexes as a feat, must wait until level 2 to start hitting reliably. Won't get Power Attack until 4th - getting Improved Feint at level 3 to help with accuracy. Agile Maneuvers could be useful in additon to Improved Trip as well, in time.
Right now, it seems the Swashbuckler is good on the defense, horrible on the offense. Using Opportune Parry is weak right now due to his +4 on the attempt.. plus he if he uses Opportune Parry and Riposte, he'll be out of Penache until he can crit again. I couldn't afford a 16 in Cha like I wanted.. otherwise that above combo would be more viable.
Overall.. I'm not liking it. Will post more thoughts later.
What about starting panache at level two and bumping weapon finesse into the level one slot?
Alright, built a 5th level character.. he's getting more likable. I think with this class the early levels would be the most painful - though I do understand the 'not wanting to frontload' the first level stuff.
Heres my 5th level version of the above character:
Julio, The Dashing Swordsman
Favored Class Swashbuckler
Favored Class Bonus +5 Skill PointExperience:
Experience to Next Level:Male Taldan Human Swashbuckler 5
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +8
-------
AC 23 (Touch 16, FF 18)(+5 Armor, +4 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Dodge, +1 Deflection)
Hp 37 (5d10+5[Con])
Fort +3, Ref +9, Will +2; +1 vs Fear
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Nimble +1
-------
Speed 30 ft
Melee +1 Rapier +11 (1d6+9/15-20x2) or Dagger +10 (1d4+8/17-20x2) or Power Attack +1 Rapier +9 (1d6+13/15-20x2)
Ranged Dagger +9 (1d4+2/19-20x2/10ft)
Special Attacks Penache (2), Deeds (Daring-Do, Opportune Parry, Riposte, Recovery, Menacing Swordplay, Precise Strike[+5], Swashbuckler's Initiative), Swashbuckler Finesse
-------
Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +5, CMB +9, CMD 21 (25 vs Steal, Disarm, Sunder vs Light or One-Handed Finessable Weapons)
Feats Combat Reflexes(1st), Combat Expertise(Human), Improved Trip(3rd), Agile Maneuvers(4thB), Power Attack(5th)
Skills (7 - 20[Base]+5[Int]+5[Favored]+5[Human]) Acrobatics [5] +12, Bluff[5] +11, Intimidate[5] +10, Escape Artist[5] +12, Diplomacy[5] +10, Perception[5] +8, Sense Motive[5] +8
Languages Taldane (Common), Elven
SQ
Traits Fencer, Fast Talker
Racial Skilled, Bonus Feat
-------
Fencer(Trait): +1 to Attack of Opportunities with bladed weapons.
Fast Talker(Trait): +1 to Bluff. Bluff is a Class Skill.
-------
Items: Combat Gear: (+1 Mithral Chain Shirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Rapier, Dagger [10], Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +1); Consumables: (); Other Gear: (); Animals (); Teams (); Wealth: (0 pp, 1790 gp, 0 sp, 0 cp)Carrying Capacity:
Light (0-58); Medium (59-116); Heavy (117-175);Current Load:
Thoughts: Much more reliable offensive capability now that he has both Weapon Finesse (Well, Pseudo-Weapon Finesse), and Weapon Training. He has a high chance to crit, and crits for 2d6+21 - quite respectable after all, I might say. I don't like having so little Penache, still - but I could sacrifice Agile Maneuvers and Improved Trip for Extra Grit and Improved Feint. Feinting would certainly increase his accuracy even more - honestly, I think I would rather go that route with this guy. That would mean he'd have 4 Penache.. more respectible than just a simple 2.
I still don't like having to spend 2 Penache each time I parry/riposte. Honestly, I think Riposte should be usable for free as long as you have one Penache - Opportune Parry should still cost 1 Pinache, though, otherwise the swashbuckler might be too unhittable. Granted, as fragile as he is hit-point wise, it would not hurt! His AC is respectible at this level, increasing to 25 when he uses Combat Expertise, so that isn't an issue.
So, it seems that for the Swashbuckler, the first level is the hardest - afterwards, once you get Psuedo-Weapon Finesse at level 2, it gets better. However, I do think it should be actual Weapon Finesse at level 2, to allow feats and stuff.
I keep reading Julio as Julia and wondering 'why would someone name their son Julia?'
Bare me no mind, move along.
Actually fists are bludgeoning.. however, I had the same idea Lantzkev. Was working on one!
Julio II, the Dashing Luchador
Favored Class Swashbuckler
Favored Class Bonus +5 Hit PointsExperience:
Experience to Next Level:Male Taldan Human Swashbuckler 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +0
-------
AC 22 (Touch 16, FF 16)(+5 Dex, +1 Shield, +1 Dodge, +5 Armor)
Hp 42 (5d10+5[Con]+5[Favored])
Fort +3, Ref +10, Will +2; +1 vs Fear
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Nimble +1
-------
Speed 30 ft
Melee +1 Cestus +12 (1d4+8/17-20x2) or Unarmed Strike +9 (1d3+4/x2)
Ranged
Special Attacks Penache (2), Deeds (Daring-Do, Opportune Parry, Riposte, Recovery, Menacing Swordplay, Precise Strike[+5], Swashbuckler's Initiative), Swashbuckler Finesse
-------
Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +5, CMB +10(+15 Grapple), CMD 22(24 vs Grapple, 27 vs Disarm, Trip, Steal with Light/One-Handed Weapons)
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike(1st), Agile Maneuvers(Human), Improved Grapple(3rd), Snapping Turtle Style(4thB), Snapping Turtle Clutch(5th)
Skills (25 - 20[Base]+5[Human]) Acrobatics[5] +13(+17 Tumble), Escape Artist[5] +13, Intimidate[5] +11, Bluff[5] +10(+20 to Lie, +15 to Feint), Diplomacy[5] +10
Languages Taldane (Common)
SQ
Traits Reactionary, Bully
Racial Skilled, Bonus Feat
-------
Reactionary(Trait): +2 to Initiative
Fast Talker(Trait): +1 to Intimidate. Intimidate is a Class Skill.
-------
Items: Combat Gear: (+1 Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt, +1 Cestus, Armbands of the Brawler, Mask of the Stony Demeanor, Belt of Tumbling, Cloak of Resistance +1); Consumables: (); Other Gear: (); Animals (); Teams (); Wealth: (0 pp, 145 gp, 0 sp, 0 cp)Carrying Capacity:
Light (0-58); Medium (59-116); Heavy (117-175);Current Load:
Thoughts: This guy.. is an amazing grappler, no doubt. +15 to grapple at level 5? Dang! He's designed to disable, not to kill - at level 7, he'll be able to grapple, pin, and tie up an opponent in 2 rounds. Combining his grappling skill and his escape artist skills, he can easily escape a poor grapple should he need to. In addition, should he ever crit, he can intimidate fairly well - and he can lie like no other with that mask of his. This guy proves to be an excellent controller, while being extremely mobile and not bad with the offense - though its not his main focus.
I'm wondering how a support/control build would do? Combat Expertise with disarm is very flavorful, add Butterfly's Sting since a good chunk of your damage doesn't get multiplied on a crit, Improved Trip (gotta be 2/3 of duels in the movies end up with one person disarmed and on the ground while the victor holds his rapier to their throat.) Then, as these peter out due to higher CMDs, you get the Targeted Strike deed. Add Stand Still (since you're getting Combat Reflexes anyway) and maybe Antagonize and you've got an excellent team player.
Whirlwind + Disarm and you've got the second scene of Cyrano De Bergerac.
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah I realize that dex to damage isn't as needed as previously thought - though it would certainly be welcomed by all means. I'm right now trying to find out ways to make a swashbuckler beyond the basic 'rapier + combat reflexes' build that seems to be the main focus of swashbucklers.
What annoys me still is that without Combat Reflexes and at least 14 Cha, you cannot make use of the Opportune Parry + Riposte combo.. my Luchador up there can't Riposte at all. Thats a deed that is completely useless for him - hopefully at least an archetype will replace it.
*Edit* Oh THATS how to get piercing with unarmed strikes.. *Works on another luchador*
Are deeds going to be predetermined for the final class or are these just benchmarks? Some choice in the deed selection would be very nice.
Also, what do people think of different panache capacity and regeneration mechanics? I think a bit more maximum panache would be nice as well as a way to regenerate it that isn't dependent on weapon selection to allow for more variety.
I'm very much enjoying the swashbuckler so far though in the little mock combats I've done. Keep up the good work Paizo!
You don't need agile maneuvers now if you already have weapon finesse and attempt a trip with your weapon (even if your weapon hasn't the trip property).
Feats Combat Reflexes(1st), Combat Expertise(Human), Improved Trip(3rd), Agile Maneuvers(4thB), Power Attack(5th)
Yeah thats true.. I forgot!
Alrighty! Found two ways to get Piercing on your unarmed strikes: Snake Style and Hamatulatsu Strike. Both of which are viable, I chose the former though.
Here is yet another Swashbuckler - this one based off of the level 5 cestus-wielder, but instead uses only his fists.
Julio III, the Dashing Luchador
Favored Class Swashbuckler
Favored Class Bonus +5 Hit PointsExperience:
Experience to Next Level:Male Taldan Human Swashbuckler 5/Master of Many Styles Monk 2
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +0
-------
AC 25 (Touch 17, FF 19)(+5 Armor, +5 Dex, +1 Dodge, +3 Shield, +1 Deflection)
Hp 53 (5d10+2d8+7[Con]+5[Favored])
Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +5; +1 vs Fear
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Bravery +1, Nimble +1
-------
Speed 30 ft
Melee Unarmed Strike +16/+11 (1d6+12/19-20x2) or Power Attack Unarmed Strike +14/+9 (1d6+16/19-20x2)
Ranged
Special Attacks Penache (2), Deeds (Daring-Do, Opportune Parry, Riposte, Recovery, Menacing Swordplay, Precise Strike[+5], Swashbuckler's Initiative), Swashbuckler Finesse, Stunning Fist (2/day, DC 11)
-------
Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
BAB +6, CMB +11(+20 Grapple), CMD 24(29 vs Grapple, 28 vs Disarm, Trip, Steal with Light/One-Handed Weapons)
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike(B), Snake Style(Monk1st), Stunning Fist(B), Agile Maneuvers(1st), Improved Grapple(Human), Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)(3rd), Power Attack(4thB), Weapon Specialization(Unarmed Strike)(5th), Greater Grapple(7th), Combat Reflexes(Monk2nd)
Skills (35 - 28[Base]+7[Human]) Acrobatics[7] +15(+19 Tumble), Escape Artist[7] +15, Sense Motive[7] +11, Bluff[7] +12(+22 Lie, +17 Feint), Intimidate[7] +12
Languages Taldane (Common)
SQ
Traits Reactionary, Suspicious
Racial Skilled, Bonus Feat
-------
Reactionary(Trait): +2 to Initiative
Suspicious(Trait): +1 to Sense Motive. Sense Motive is a Class Skill.
-------
Items: Combat Gear: (+1 Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt, +2 Buckler, Armbands of the Brawler, Mask of the Stony Demeanor, Belt of Tumbling, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Ring of Protection +1, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver[Grapple]); Consumables: (); Other Gear: (); Animals (); Teams (); Wealth: (0 pp, 1295 gp, 0 sp, 0 cp)Carrying Capacity:
Light (0-58); Medium (59-116); Heavy (117-175);Current Load:
Thoughts: This one, though he crits less often, hits fairly hard. Perhaps I should look into getting Dragon Style instead of snake style, while combining that with Hamatulatsu strike? That would increase his offensive capability.. and allow him to charge easier. Hmmm.. in that case, he would probably go a less grapple-oriented route, in order to get the feat.
This guy, meanwhile, can grapple, pin, and tie up enemies in two rounds. With a +25 to his pin/tie up check (On the 2nd round), he should be able to reliably pin anything he should be coming up across. Combining that with a good acrobatics skill, he can get to his target easily enough, as well.
Not your average swashbuckler, indeed!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Continuing to playtest with Debbie Debug here, we're up to level 6. Fun level for BAB and saves (currently crazy imbalanced- 3/10/0) and as projected wealth gets up here, there's an issue that needs addressing. This class is pretty badly in need of support outside of what is present in the class write-up itself. Since this sort of dex-favoring full BAB frontliner has not previously been supported in any significant fashion, it's tricky finding feats and equipment that really work with it.
There's a huge chunk lead off with power attack (itself really a must for this kind of class), many of which aren't appropriate to the theme (cleave), but things like dazing assault, stunning assault, death or glory would compliment things well. Felling Smash and the Bull Rush line fit mechanically at least. The former is made up for (somewhat) by a deed next level, but while I've managed a bit of danciness on my end with step up, for a proper fencing style, it would be very nice to have some way to beat an opponent back, or draw them into following while stepping back.
Intelligence blocks off the feint feats, disarm, reposition, and dirty tricks, all things that are quite tempting to pick up, and the reason I consider 13 the minimum to really play this class, although again, they lack the offensive bite similar strength-based feats allow for, and are a little hard to rationalize when deeds do similar things.
High dexterity meanwhile, which we have covered unlocks quite a few options... none of which are of any real benefit to Debbie here. More or less all of them involve either a two-weapon fighting style, which she isn't using because it would mean giving up on precise strike and her buckler, or they benefit ranged combat, which again would interfere with the buckler and involve more equipment than she can carry. If she had room for a bow, she wouldn't have these darts. Finally there's a few options based on a stick and move approach, or circling around to an enemy's back. Nice for a rogue or vital striker, but this class is, despite the lack of damage with this build, very much about getting right in an opponent's face and staying there, weaving around and jabbing when you can.
Crane Wing Riposte is an excellent goal to shoot for, redundant as it is with those level 1 deeds, with unarmed strike as a requirement there's room to move into some other combat maneuvers, but the theme with the bulk of this is setting up someone else for attacks, and we should be, in a given party, the main front line fighter. We certainly aren't in the position of a rogue, capitalizing on opportunities.
Equipment is similarly awkward. Gloves of Dueling certainly sound like a great thing to pick up, but their main benefit relies on having weapon training, which we technically don't have. The main thing Debbie's magic item budget is good for right now is desperately trying to shore up all these massive weaknesses she has. She's at around the level were she can finally afford to slap Agile on this rapier, drastically raising the cost of anything we want down the road, but it's pretty damn worth the trade. A cloak of resistance would be nice too.
Now that we're done leveling up, back to the meat of things. The agile rapier makes all the difference. I don't really need to keep reporting in on how much better Dawn has it than Debbie (although it's still a huge edge, and with cost scaling it's going to stay like that). She's confidently dropping CR 1 and 2 monsters in single hits, which for those who missed the line does not restore panache, but she's critting frequently to keep it flowing some, and popping on that extra +6 on after each. She still hovers around the regular damage of a fighter in a similar spot, but at least the crits are on the high end. and her AC's always been on par with a regular fighter, at a point that still deflects a lot of what's coming in. The lack of damage to undead got errata removing it at just the right time to play with undead here. Any sort of special effects from bites still really mess her up, but she's much better at ending the fight before the odds swing the right way to have to deal with it.
Here's some swarms though. Piercing is useless there, and so is her AC. She just kinda has to run away and let someone else deal with those, or eat the damage, which she can. I managed to keep con off her dump list. I'm also running through an area where these low saves are generally put to the test, with lots of stat damage on the line. Wis loss makes a few almost need a 20s into need a 20s, con and str are missed but there's room for the loss. Charisma you'd think would hurt, but all it really does is prevent her from burning panache until it's repaired, and she doesn't end up doing so often in the first place. Str damage is still murderously crippling.
There's a rather interesting benchmark fight to be had at the end of chapter 2 part 4 of Runelords here, but I'm trying not to spoil the AP I'm using to test, so...
In a real fight, we'd have a whole party for support so we aren't going to be the sole damage source here. What we want is to tank, in the MMO sense. We get in his face, and keep hitting him, and keep his attention from the rest of the party. We're doing enough damage now he's not going to just shrug and walk away like he would before we got the rapier, so that's nice, and we have the swashiest feat line we can find, so if he does back off we can stay in his face. I rethought things and switched out that precise strike feat for dodge. If nothing else that's less confusing. Gives her a 24 AC if she's using expertise, 22 without. Not bad. His war razor's still hitting half the time, but he needs to roll real real well to hit with the claw or bite.
I actually played this out, sure enough, eventually a bite does get through. Now, let's say, for argument's sake, I hadn't sworn off parrying. Let's say I had combat reflexes, and the extra 2 points of cha so I can afford to blow the panache. Let's see if I can swing this riposte thing. Let's make a few attempts for the sake of science, even. I just rolled it out 8 times, not one successful parry. The whole thing is frankly too much of a crap shoot. I am intimately familiar with this sort of mechanic having played a mounted combat specialist every weekend for the last few years in a long-running campaign. There, I have a free attempt at canceling out an attack on my mount with a ride check once a round. Said mount has pretty high AC, but gets attacked a lot anyway, because I'm in full plate and all. It usually comes out as something like a 10-15% chance I can pull off the dodge. It takes a really high roll to beat the AC, I need to roll even higher than that to block. The things that can make the hit tend to be the things with such a high attack bonus they're almost certain to hit, which means they hit by a large margin, usually large enough to eliminate the gap. In this specific case, it looks like a 50/50 shot, because Debbie's attack roll is the same as this guy's, give or take 1 depending if expertise is in play. He hits her about half the time too. But... that's the thing. The half the time he doesn't hit, who cares, he doesn't hit, I'm not going to use the power. For the portion of his rolls that potentially do hit, only the lowest possible roll is a 50/50 shot. Looking at just this range where it matters, I have a 25% chance to parry on average. And monster BAB scales better than PC, so that just gets worse.
Now, something I didn't notice until just now is that parry is actually worse than I thought, and I don't get to see my odds before I declare my parry. So half the time, in this particular fight, I'm throwing away an AOO and panache point to turn a miss into a miss. Now, this DOES make riposte better, because I can parry say, that last attack at -10 from a high level enemy not using natural attacks. It wouldn't hit anyway, but I'm set for a riposte... which is still too expensive to want to do even if I knew it was going to hit. So back to never using this. Recovery I might switch back to for this fight though. Depends on how worried I am about keeping this guy away from the rest of the party. If he's going to stay on me anyway, I'll stick and move, not have to face the naturals if I remember the fairly advanced tactics involved in making this work. If he leaves though, I just gave up my second attack and probably got someone squishy into a real dangerous position.
All of that is irrelevant in my testing here though, because in round 2 of fighting him he got a nat 20 with a bite. That's 2 fort saves I'm unlikely to make, not because I've been slacking off. Positive con mod, bolstered with a +2 cloak. That's about as good as any swashbuckler can hope for at this level. Gives me a +5 against a DC17 though. The second save is a fail, and it was against paralysis. 9 points of my AC drop when I stop adding dex essentially, plus he, I'm helpless next to a boss. This here is probably why every other full BAB melee type has a full fort save. By my count this is the almost third time Debbie's pretty much ended up dead off a single unfortunate roll. Shadows getting a hit do her in as we saw earlier, and the suicidal compulsion haunt earlier in here had her coup de grace herself after a failed will save she had a lousy shot of making, and nobody in this party's going to beat her +7 int. Only reason it didn't is the damage from the throat slitting was str based. DC was only an 11. Saved by a lack of upper body strength for once!
That test in the spoilers was pretty bad luck though. With a real damage output and a decent party for support, odds of that crit happening early enough to doom her are low. Debbie's a bit like a Demon Hunter from Diablo 3 sometimes. 9 out of 10 attacks she dodges completely but 10% of the time she keels over from a stiff breeze.
This class really does need that good fort save from what I'm seeing here, doesn't really need the reflex if it comes down to a choice between the two, that's for people who hang back in formation for fireballs and lightning bolts.
Moving along. Hey, random mooks! Again, those are finally satisfying with this rapier. With a boss who's a caster. Also a dex heavy high AC type, that Debbie can handily defeat in a one on one fight. Good ego boost after getting killed, and enough for the next level up.
Big feature this level is another batch of deeds. It's been a while! And... it's odd getting both of these at once- Pommel Swipe lets me spend a panache to make an attack that only crits on a 20, deals 1d6 damage (which for a rapier is the same as usual), then gives me a chance to make what is essentially a trip attempt that doesn't benefit from improved trip if it hits. Targeted Strike, among other things, let's me spend a point of panache to make a regular attack, which if it hits, automatically knocks things prone, no second check. It's a little weird getting access to both of these at once. Targeted Strike has the advantage of not involving a second attack roll, but it's a full round action. Pommel Swipe is a swift action, but relies on my garbage CMB (which becomes decent if I grab agile maneuvers for my feat). Pommel Swipe also benefits from lacking any language about legless creatures. It kind of lacks some language in general actually. Do I add my str (or in this case dex) to hit/damage? What about my precise strike damage? It's nice to have in any case, if only because it's blunt. Targeted Strike seems overly costly. Being a full-round action seems like a holdover from the gunslinger version. You stand where you are, you line up your shot, you fire, instead of standing where you are and shooting a bunch. Here, actually moving up is required, so it should really be a standard. There's honestly a case to be made for just using this as part of an attack. With a full attack at higher levels, I could potentially inflict all of these effects at one via CMB rolls if I'm already adjacent to start with, and everything but legs is going to wear off before I can take advantage. Swift Feint has the same issue. It would be tactically interesting if if was part of a full attack. The full bonus hit is wasted, but there's no dex on the rest. Only useful against something with more than 5 points of AC coming from dex/dodge (like Debbie here), or of course if you're setting up for a rogue. Confusing wording too, was that the actual intent?
Anyway, those deeds show up, one will probably start seeing use. Bumping up her cloak of resistance because I am getting slaughtered over here with these saves. Oh and that second nimble point came in. For what it's worth, I'm pretty well pushing dex as high as I can afford right now and it's putting me pretty much where I like a fighter to be (23). If I really focused I could get it a little higher because I've been really negligent with my armor and buckler. Armor's getting swapped next level though and the saves worry me way more than the damage, so it'd really just be a min-maxer's thought experiment. Anything non-financial that could go in has though. Let's see how she handles...
Hey, DR! That's something Debbie hasn't had to deal with for a while! Also a 10' reach finally shows up. She can happily eat a hit on the approach, starts stabbing, which again, doesn't work GREAT now, but it works, which couldn't be said a couple levels ago. This is Debbie's first fight where recovery is no longer useful. If she backs up a step, not only is she still in range for the rest of the full attack, this thing can just 5' back and get another free AOO in when she wastes a turn chasing. If you want it to stay relevant, the distance needs to come up to 10' at around the level large enemies become the norm. Not a big deal to see it go though, Precise Strike is the meat and potatoes deed, and there's new ones to try.
The bonk on the head seems slightly more practical here. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but agile maneuvers gives a pretty good CMB, and this being some kind of weird generic check apparently means there's no CMD size bonus for the big lug. Plus hey, free hit vs. lose a hit, no brainer. Actually pulled it off too. Anyway, no real way around this thing's DR, construct so caster friends aren't much good, just a bit of a slugfest. Liking pommel swipe, nice to have an option besides raw damage worth considering. These others, not so much. What's next?
Oh look it's someone with lots of will save spells. And my will save is... +3. See? It was good to grab the cloak, I only need an 18 on this save. Nap time, rest of the party can handle it, right? Uh... this boss is a real piece of work, immune to a lot of this stuff. Pommel Swipe potentially works here if I get a chance to use it, on a monster that tends not to end up prone otherwise, which is neat. As tends to be true for big end of chapter bosses though, how Debbie fairs here really depends on the rest of the party's composition. If she can slide around and open this up for a rogue, and just eats physical attacks, it's doable. If she's the main damage dealer, saves do her in again I think (along with that nice AC not being enough on any real challenging heavy hitter type, as is to be expected). I try not to worry too much about these big chapter capper fights though because they're designed to shake parties out of their usual humdrum routine and call for pulling out crazy stops. Debbie doesn't really have any crazy stops to pull. She is the very definition of a one-trip pony. She gets in your face and stabs until one of you is dead, but she's a real colorful character when you head back to town.
I'm kinda done tracking what's up with Dawn. She has a weapon +'s worth of extra cash to spend and 2 less feats. The cash actually is kind of a big deal, she could totally afford the str belt for power attack right in time to get an extra 6 damage that adds on crits (Debbie's at +14/+21 for those keeping score, so power attack would have her nipping at fighters' heels), but Debbie's literally just shuffling her feet with the extra feats.
A few points of concern-
Am I actually providing any valuable feedback with this? I'm sinking a lot of time into this test, and really trying my best to play the class as best I can, but I haven't really heard any dev chatter related to any of what I'm pulling out of this, one way or the other. Not sure if I'm getting drowned out by all the theoretical math and gut feeling takes, or I was written off the minute I put down 9 str, or there's just more to discuss with the other classes or what.
Panache is freaking weird in practice. I've talked a bit about what deeds seem worth using, but the whole mechanic just plays out in a strange way. You'd think it would feel like grit, but it doesn't. Grit you generally end up with a decent pool of, because gunslingers can safely dump a lot more, hanging back as they do. Plus, you're more inclined to save it up to really spend like crazy on a boss or do weird esoteric stuff.
Panache is way more reliable. The real bread and butter of it is the three deeds from level 3, those are great and you always want to keep them on. Particularly if you do the whole rapier (or scimitar) and buckler build, where it's the source of most of your damage. There is a 1 panache minimum though, so you can dump cha to 7 and still have that. Sadly, this seems like one of the smartest things you can do.
Having 2 points of Panache is pretty worthwhile though if you can afford it. One to sit on, one to spend. There's chance involved in when it recharges since you're waiting on a crit to get it back, but since basically you always spend it when attacking, and you only crit when you're attacking, managing it is a no brainer. Do I have 2 points? Spend one on my next attack. Do I have 1 point? Wait until my next crit, goto 10.
Having 3 points of Panache is... really not measurably different from having 2 points of Panache. You can't really recharge 2 at once, there's no time before level 11 you're ever spending more than 1 on a given roll (parry/riposte is not viable), and even then, I don't know that 1 point of stat bleed is even worth trading the (probably sizable) dex bonus worth of damage bleed for even if it didn't cost an extra point. All you really get out of the 3rd point is 1 extra use of an ability with plentiful uses. Let's say you crit 20 times a day (arbitrary, but conceivable in a crawly session if you're lucky). The progression goes like this: 1P: 0/day 2P:20/day 3P: 21/day.
I don't so much consider this to be a problem as I do an interesting quirk. However, it brings up an interesting point:
I am very much against the introduction of an Extra Panache feat.
If you have at least a 14 cha like Debbie here, that's never going to be worth a feat slot. You can coast by just fine on just the two points. If you have anything less than 14 cha, you are given at least the 1 freebie point, which is almost all you need. Take a single feat and you can dump what feels like it should be the second most important stat for the class to no adverse effect. Honestly, I'd even suggest removing that "(minimum 1)." Probably want to replace it with a note about not bottoming out from temporary penalties/cha damage though.
The next few levels aren't tremendously interesting to this playtest. Debbie outgrows her studded leather next level up, and can probably invest in a better dex belt skipping her right past leather straight to padded, shortly followed by nothing if she maxes the belt out.This has no net effect on her AC, but frees up a whopping 20 lbs. from her carry weight. Some of that I suppose is lost to some lightweight clothing for the sake of basic modesty, but it is enough of a difference that she can finally, finally pick up a longbow, or maybe a crossbow even, and have any way at all to deal with things that fly. She's kind of overdue. Ditching armor completely is almost as big a benchmark as getting the agile rapier.
Past that, there's finally a flying enemy to deal with at some point (she really still can't do anything useful against it, but it's better to plink than sit the fight out) but... there's basically nothing interesting to say about levels 8-10 for her in my playtest AP.
Oh wait, there's one place where she might need a swim check. She has a -1 so it may finally be time for derring-do if she fails... it's kind of a hail merry though. I rolled a 2 on the check and 1 on the d6.
Dex, absolutely, cha, no. Charisma needs to do more for this class than it does, but if it was your main combat stat, you would really be up the creek. Being a front line fighter with light armor, you need a high dex to survive. Particularly when you are a class which is essentially just a mutant fighter. They can just slap on plate mail, pump everything into strength, and be fine. Here, you already need some charisma. You need a lot of wis if you ever want to pass a save. You need a lot of con if you ever want to pass a save. You need a good chunk of int if you want to qualify for most feats, or have a reasonable smattering of skills. I don't see a way to dump str lower than 9 unless you completely ignore the encumbrance rules. Dex, whether it's adding to damage or not, is your AC, your reflex save, and how you hit things, so it's going to be where you want your points. That means your main damage stat would be one you're never increasing, or increasing through headbands only, as a secondary concern.
You'd also make it weirdly appealing for half the casters in the game to dip into this, and honestly, it just doesn't make any sense at the end of the day.
Suggested tweaks to date (which I realize look crazy counter-intuitive/greedy at first glance, but these bear out in practical play):
Saving throws: A melee character who is going to sit in a monster's lap for this long, particularly one who can't afford to up their con, needs to have a good fort save. So many successful melee attacks from monsters slaughter Debbie here.
Panache: Seriously consider removing the minimum value of 1, with a caveat about damage/drain/penalties.
Level 1: Swashbuckler Finesse needs to be moved to here. Missing everything for a full level was not a character building experience that put hair on Debbie's chest and created fond memories. It just made her unplayable.
Level 2: Add charisma bonus to all saves. This is the most MAD class I've ever seen, and needs to benefit a lot more from cha than it currently does. Bravery can go away, it's not fear effects that make the awful will saves hurt.
Level 3 is pretty cool as is.
Level 4: Add dexterity to damage in place of strength, and make it mandatory. The image, armor, early finesse freebie, and weapon selection make this look like a dex-based class, but without this it is a straight-up trap to treat it as such, and it will crash and burn hard starting here and ending when you get an agile weapon (unless you got an obscure non-core feat at level 3 after wasting your level 1 on something you immediately got for free after, and use a somewhat inappropriate weapon). Taking strength-based builds off the table while you're at it shows true commitment to the premise, and conveniently nips the bud on some weird maybe-broken, definitely off-theme builds.
Add a ton of new feats to generally support the class. It desperately needs an off-brand power attack, say Swashbuckler level 4 required? Maybe with a minimum int or cha of 13 thrown in?
Handy- more feats to dance around pushing/pulling an enemy while attacking, maybe some kind of anti-power-attack where you reduce the damage of your target's attacks until your next turn?
Actively unwanted- Extra Panache. At least not without a minimum 13 cha requirement slapped on. It'd just be pure minmaxer cheese otherwise.
Deeds:
Merge Parry/Riposte- Possibly only allow it after an attack is rolled and is not a miss. It's counter-intuitive, but it prevents it from being used on attacks that would miss anyway and just turning into a free attack. With a narrow window and known odds, it's the sort of gamble it's meant to be, without being too costly to ever use.
Clarify Pommel Swipe.
Swift Feint as any attack, declare before rolling.
Targetted strike as a standard (or attack even).
Both HP and stat damage when paying 2 points for bleeding wound.
TL;DR: With my change, the swashbuckler still does less damage per round as the Gunslinger, but can more easily perform "Hit and Runs", running in, spending some Penache and hitting hard, then retreating.
This doesn't work very well, because without a feat chain you run in, hit hard... and then get walloped by a full attack, and then leave. If effectively halves your damage if you keep doing it.
Also, this is a group game. If you're playing the swashbuckly fighter chances are no one else is playing the fighter. You ARE the meatshield.. there's no one else to hide behind.
While its good thematically, its very, very hard to make that work well in a turn based game.
I've been giving the Swashbuckler a good thinking through and here's my thoughts.
Overall, the class is terrible. It depends solely on it's pool of parnache points to do anything, even things it doesn't have to burn points to activate. Many of the deeds are permanent abilities, as long as the Swashbuckler has parnache points left. This forces the class to always save at least a single point, or lose out on a lot of their more essential abilities.
The parnache pool is very small, so the abilities that do require points to be burned will be used less often, and points will be hoarded for that one big fight that - potentially - awaits the party. This slows the swashbucklar down and keeps him from doing what he should be doing all the time.
Many of the deeds abilities should have been class features in their own right, not depending on having parnache points left. The parnache pool should have been cha bonus + 1/2 level instead of the cheap cha bonus only. And it should have a good will save, since most classes these days has 2 good saves.
Overall I can see a lot of possibilities in this class, but it needs to focus less on the parnache mechanic and more on having abilities it can actually count on having.
|
|
Am I actually providing any valuable feedback with this? I'm sinking a lot of time into this test, and really trying my best to play the class as best I can, but I haven't really heard any dev chatter related to any of what I'm pulling out of this, one way or the other. Not sure if I'm getting drowned out by all the theoretical math and gut feeling takes, or I was written off the minute I put down 9 str, or there's just more to discuss with the other classes or what.
I'm pretty sure a single post of playtest such as this one is more valuable than all of our previous posts discussing game design and balance. ;)
Level 2: Add charisma bonus to all saves. This is the most MAD class I've ever seen, and needs to benefit a lot more from cha than it currently does. Bravery can go away, it's not fear effects that make the awful will saves hurt.
Level 3 is pretty cool as is.
Level 4: Add dexterity to damage in place of strength, and make it mandatory. The image, armor, early finesse freebie, and weapon selection make this look like a dex-based class, but without this it is a straight-up trap to treat it as such, and it will crash and burn hard starting here and ending when you get an agile weapon (unless you got an obscure non-core feat at level 3 after wasting your level 1 on something you immediately got for free after, and use a somewhat inappropriate weapon). Taking strength-based builds off the table while you're at it shows true commitment to the premise, and conveniently nips the bud on some weird maybe-broken, definitely off-theme builds.
To this though I must yet again countergument vehemently.
2. Cha bonus to all saves at 2nd level would be too good, especially for the purposes of people dipping two levels and continuing with another class.
4. And yet again I really cannot understand this logic at all. Why would you shoe-horn the class into a highly limited choice of builds and weapons ("Oh, you're playing a swashbuckler and want to know how to play it ? Just pump dex and pick Dervish Dance and Power Attack because all other options will make you suck hard at your job."), when we definitely have the opportunity right now to help design a class that allows for a wide variety of characters, efficient at their job, versatile in their builds and tactics and fun to play ? What does it bring to everyone's table if your class can only be built in a single fashion if it wants to survive adventures ?
Pathfinder has always been all about choice even if some are less optimal than others. There is no reason to dedicate time and work designing a one-trick pony whose other choices aren't even suboptimal but stupidly weak, when it would take the same amount of time beginning right now to design an awesome class covering a lot of roleplaying grounds all the while keeping the panache/agility overall thematic.
We've got the chance to help build a cool class right now, and a lot of simple suggestions have already been made which if integrated to the Swashbuckler's skeleton, would balance nicely all builds based on specific weapons, tactics, damage, AC, feints and combat maneuvers. The Dervish Dancer would still be a potent option with balanced strengths and drawbacks. The Power Attack-ing swashbuckler would still be a potent option with balanced strengths and drawbacks. The rapier/dual wielding/light weapons/exotic weapons/cloak and blade/buckler wielding swashbuckler would still be a potent option with strengths and drawbacks. Same for the mobile spring-attacking swashbuckler or the one fighting defensively, or the one with style feats, or the unarmed one, etc etc.
Again, there is NO need to shoe-horn the class when it can be balanced with a number of lines in the rules you could count on one hand.
I've been giving the Swashbuckler a good thinking through and here's my thoughts.
Overall, the class is terrible. It depends solely on it's pool of parnache points to do anything, even things it doesn't have to burn points to activate. Many of the deeds are permanent abilities, as long as the Swashbuckler has parnache points left. This forces the class to always save at least a single point, or lose out on a lot of their more essential abilities.
The parnache pool is very small, so the abilities that do require points to be burned will be used less often, and points will be hoarded for that one big fight that - potentially - awaits the party. This slows the swashbucklar down and keeps him from doing what he should be doing all the time.
Many of the deeds abilities should have been class features in their own right, not depending on having parnache points left. The parnache pool should have been cha bonus + 1/2 level instead of the cheap cha bonus only. And it should have a good will save, since most classes these days has 2 good saves.
Overall I can see a lot of possibilities in this class, but it needs to focus less on the parnache mechanic and more on having abilities it can actually count on having.
Here is someone who disagrees with you based on an actual playtest experience. Sorry if you saw it already. It was right above you, so I'm not sure (Note: I'm not saying you're wrong; I'd like more panache too, but it was an interesting read for me and you might find it interesting too):
Panache is freaking weird in practice. I've talked a bit about what deeds seem worth using, but the whole mechanic just plays out in a strange way. You'd think it would feel like grit, but it doesn't. Grit you generally end up with a decent pool of, because gunslingers can safely dump a lot more, hanging back as they do. Plus, you're more inclined to save it up to really spend like crazy on a boss or do weird esoteric stuff.
Panache is way more reliable. The real bread and butter of it is the three deeds from level 3, those are great and you always want to keep them on. Particularly if you do the whole rapier (or scimitar) and buckler build, where it's the source of most of your damage. There is a 1 panache minimum though, so you can dump cha to 7 and still have that. Sadly, this seems like one of the smartest things you can do.
Having 2 points of Panache is pretty worthwhile though if you can afford it. One to sit on, one to spend. There's chance involved in when it recharges since you're waiting on a crit to get it back, but since basically you always spend it when attacking, and you only crit when you're attacking, managing it is a no brainer. Do I have 2 points? Spend one on my next attack. Do I have 1 point? Wait until my next crit, goto 10.
Having 3 points of Panache is... really not measurably different from having 2 points of Panache. You can't really recharge 2 at once, there's no time before level 11 you're ever spending more than 1 on a given roll (parry/riposte is not viable)...
|
|
If you have at least a 14 cha like Debbie here, that's never going to be worth a feat slot. You can coast by just fine on just the two points. If you have anything less than 14 cha, you are given at least the 1 freebie point, which is almost all you need. Take a single feat and you can dump what feels like it should be the second most important stat for the class to no adverse effect. Honestly, I'd even suggest removing that "(minimum 1)." Probably want to replace it with a note about not bottoming out from temporary penalties/cha damage though.
I don't understand why you feel the actual, current playtest's swashbuckler has enough panache already. Just to parry and counterattack, you need 2 points, and doing that effectively neuters your damage output if you haven't at least 16 Cha.
How would you find the place to pick 1 more panache point with a feat under the current incredibly starved ruleset ?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I actually providing any valuable feedback with this? I'm sinking a lot of time into this test, and really trying my best to play the class as best I can, but I haven't really heard any dev chatter related to any of what I'm pulling out of this, one way or the other. Not sure if I'm getting drowned out by all the theoretical math and gut feeling takes, or I was written off the minute I put down 9 str, or there's just more to discuss with the other classes or what.
Not a dev, but in my ever-so-humble opinion, your playtest reports are the best thing in this thread.
The theorycrafting is all well and good, but only valuable to a point, while this feels like actual real play experience presented without an agenda, which should be worth far more.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A better fix for Derring-Do (if it costs panache to use) is the ability to choose to spend the panache/get the bonus after you see the result of the roll, allowing you to use it if you're close to the DC, while not utterly wasting valuable panache on rolls which were either made anyway or failed by a large margin. Something like 70% of you d20 skill rolls will be in the 'totally wasted' category.
Spending panache should make a difference, not be 80% likely to be totally wasted (I'm looking at you, Opportune Parry)!
This is a really solid fix, in my opinion
I definitely see the argument to add Dex to damage, but I still don't agree with it. Am I crazy? I think it could be overpowered; combined with adding level to damage (that can also crit) and the class abilities that increase your crit range. Coupled with some feats (like vital strike or power attack) and I'm dishing out pretty good damage with just rapier similar to a fighter at the same level (maybe a bit less, but whatever). I think being able to use dex with damage would maybe be too exploitable by powergamers. Then we'd all just sink our best two stats into Dex and Cha. I'm expecting a lot of beef for this
WITH THAT SAID- the class's damage output might be a bit weaker, but I think the developers did that purposefully due to the inclusions of deeds that let you do more on the battlefield instead of just shear damage. So I can see the trade off.
I do agree with the argument that class abilities that are feats should count as prerequisites for other feats. For example- "Nimble" is Dodge with a different name. I think it should count for Dodge so I can get Mobility. I KNOW that with the Gunslinger that this isn't the case, but the gunslinger is a ranged character, so it's less necessary. The Swashbuckler is a front-line fighter, and is meant to be "nimble" so I can hop around the battlefield and stab enemies. But using a precious feat to get an additional dodge bonus, just so I can have the prerequisite for Mobility is a bummer, since I already have that feat built into my character.
I hope in the final version the SB can use any one handed weapon or at least the scimitar and long sword and that they can use weapon finesse and Deeds with those weapons. A Swashbuckler Pirate with a scimitar is just an image I really find cool, any Swashbuckler with a scimitar is something I find cool.
Why is Swift Feint a standard action. Does that not make the ability pointless?
Ripost and Parry should only cost one point. Since the game favors offense over defense beating an Attack bonus with Parry is usually way harder than beating AC of the same foe.
Finally a prayer to Devs: Please create a feat part of the Core books that lets a character use its dex mod instead of str mode to melee damage. And while you are at it please nerf Dervish Dance and hit it with a str 13 prereq. I hate that people just dump str and go dex all the way. Heck, you could even add a 15 str prereq if you remove the scimitar prerec (I’d still let people use the feat with a scimitar). The fact that the agile weapon is not core and Dervish Dance that is also not core makes thinks complicated or silly or both.
keep in mind at lvl 11 you can signature deed the riposte....
-edit- funny note, you can be a martial artist swashbuckler with your fists =D
One of my first thoughts after the initial read was "You know, Boar Style... yes."
I don't fine Dex to damage necessary. Maybe they should have their damage bumped up through some other means, but if anything, it shouldnt be Dex to damage. Honestly adding anything but Str to damage without magic seems incredibly hokey, only existing for gameplay reasons and not because it makes sense.
What we now see are str based builds.
A dex for damage feat would help all dex builts including two of the most problematic classes in the game, the Rogue and the Monk. It would also help Bards and the Swashbuckler.
We want Swashbucklers to only need Dex and Cha. Multiple Attribute Dependency is to be avoided as much as possible, especially on a melee class. After all, we don't want Swashbuckler to be the new Monk.
Using Dex for damage isn't much more of a stretch than using it to hit in melee. The game has a lot more abstract concepts than that, which nobody derides as "hokey".
Yes, Dervish Dance is a non-core feat that everyone will want, but that's why I want to incorporate its function into the class, not nerf the feat into uselessness. Adding a Strength requirement completely defeats the purpose of the feat, and breaks a lot of Magi, Duelists, and Bards in the process.
We want Swashbucklers to only need Dex and Cha. Multiple Attribute Dependency is to be avoided as much as possible, especially on a melee class. After all, we don't want Swashbuckler to be the new Monk.
Using Dex for damage isn't much more of a stretch than using it to hit in melee. The game has a lot more abstract concepts than that, which nobody derides as "hokey".
Yes, Dervish Dance is a non-core feat that everyone will want, but that's why I want to incorporate its function into the class, not nerf the feat into uselessness. Adding a Strength requirement completely defeats the purpose of the feat, and breaks a lot of Magi, Duelists, and Bards in the process.
Agree with everything except the last part.
Being able to add dex mod to damage is crazy good. If the prize you got to pay is a feat then it needs to be balanced. Str 13 hardly defeats the purpose of the feat. That is just hyperbole.There is a major difference in having 18 str and 13. Even 13 vs 15 str is a big deal. 15 cost of 4 Points more than 13 and if you are small the cost is even larger.
A feat is enough of a cost in itself, especially if you have to take Weapon Finesse first. Let's say Improved Weapon Finesse existed. If you take it, you're down two feats and you still deal less damage than a Strength character. The benefit, its purpose, is to remove the need for any more than baseline Strength.
Feats are a precious resource, and your low level feats are already crowded with competition.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have the Swashbuckler fall slightly behind in flat damage (although it seems like one person's build had him evening out with the fighter pretty well) and be more useful in other ways, or have his damage boosted in a less direct way, than have Dex and Cha to damage. Its fine for a magic item quality because it's... well, magic.
The expanded crit ranges is a good start, though it doesn't come online until much later. Focusing on the bravado/intimidation aspect of the class at earlier levels could be an interesting way to handle it.
I'm pretty sure that being able to grab Weapon Specialization on top of precise strike is not a good thing.
|
|
Overall, I am pleased with the way swashbuckler has turned out thus far.
I do however have one issue with the class:Precise Strikes is horribly overpowered.
It's precision damage that doesn't multiply on a crit in a crit-based class and basically the only source of damage output in the current build, outside of Power Attack or Str-modifier (and the later will probably be heavily corrected in the future itteration anyways since it doesn't fit the class's concept and fluff).
The Swash cannot get Gloves of Dueling and thus loses +2 to attack and damage right there at mid-to-high level.
I don't see how this deed is overpowered in comparison.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have the Swashbuckler fall slightly behind in flat damage (although it seems like one person's build had him evening out with the fighter pretty well) and be more useful in other ways, or have his damage boosted in a less direct way, than have Dex and Cha to damage. Its fine for a magic item quality because it's... well, magic.
The expanded crit ranges is a good start, though it doesn't come online until much later. Focusing on the bravado/intimidation aspect of the class at earlier levels could be an interesting way to handle it.
^ This.
A swashbuckler can already debuff attack rolls and saving throws as a swift action - your AoO-based combo team and spellcasting allies will love you. He will also receive deeds to disarm or trip enemies. He has more skill points than a fighter, better face potential to defuse situations or deal with them in a clever way. He will have much better AC than damage-dealing fighters and probably more mobility.
All the swashbuckler needs is damage good enough to reliably get treated as a foe worth dealing with. Not equal damage. I'm fine with a fighter dealing 50 DPR and an average swashbuckler (best crit range, huge AC, good amount of panache and cool powers, good skills, party face) dealing 35 DPR.
I'm fine with a Dervish Dancing swashbuckler to sacrifice AC and 1 feat to get to 40 DPR against more types of enemies and more reliably. I'm fine also with Power Attack-ing swashbucklers to deal 40-45 DPR at the cost of lower saving throws, lower AC, lower panache and 1 feat.
Heck I'm even fine with a PA/DD swashbuckler effectively gimping hard his AC/saving throws/feats versatility/panache score in order to reach 50 DPR, making him a lighter fighter with more skills and tricks. Because then, each build will have its own strengths and weaknesses.
EDIT: But this requires to take into account right now for the designers how to balance the benefits of Dervish Dance and Power Attack against each other choice. The whole "Precise Strike doesn't stack with Str and Dex bonuses" is one way to do that but there may be others.
Just remember that if you grant the ability to perform these deeds with scimitars right at 1st level without requiring the character to take Dervish Dance to treat the weapon as a piercing weapon beforehand, no other weapon will ever be used by swashbucklers.
|
|
Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benef it of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
It doesn't mention working or being treated in any way like a fighter's weapon training. There may be a line about hybrid classes I missed though.