But then its not really sneak attack. And Barbarians get shield proficiency even though its better to two-hand a weapon.Arcane Tricksters can use Impromptu Sneak attack... still sneak attack.
But in any case, there is no need to call it sneak attack. For flavor, I would prefer it was not called sneak attack anyway.
Ideas for names:Slay Enemy
Slayer's Strike
Focused Attack
Strike at the Heart
Deadly Focus
Slayer's PrecisionSomething like that. Or just pick a Slayer song... that could always work too. Angel of Death? Raining Blood?
Time for more names.
The "Heart Attack"
Aim for the Heart
Piercing Blow
The Slayer's Song one would really only work if this class had Perform (Sing), which it doesn't, so would work better for a Skald Archetype.
No Magic item specifically makes or breaks my build. Unless you can't even get your hands on a Belt of a Dex +2 in your games in which case thats super brutal and I'm sorry for you.Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
In Kingmaker, almost all the gold went into the Treasury, so by level 14, I had about 5,000g, a normal Rapier, two Aklys' I decided to get, and a +1 Cloak of Resistance I got as a reward I think during book 2. The GM later said that I got a raise after I brought back the character from a single level retirement while I tried out a Samurai Jack character (which lead to about 4 other characters by other players based off of comics and shows).
In Kingmaker, almost all the gold went into the Treasury, so by level 14, I had about 5,000g, a normal Rapier, two Aklys' I decided to get, and a +1 Cloak of Resistance I got as a reward I think during book 2. The GM later said that I got a raise after I brought back the character from a single level retirement while I tried out a Samurai Jack character (which lead to about 4 other characters by other players based off of comics and shows).No Magic item specifically makes or breaks my build. Unless you can't even get your hands on a Belt of a Dex +2 in your games in which case thats super brutal and I'm sorry for you.Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
Ouch. My players had money coming out the ears when I ran Kingmaker for them and had to tell em not to sit around making money too much or I'll smite them. You really gotta build that Alchemist/Herbalist so you can sell the minor item for BP to pay for your kingdom. Just a few of them and your kingdom provides for itself. Eventually you can feel free to dip the treasury if your character falls behind. The treasurer npc obviously told my players this to help them out in paying for their kingdom.
However my point still stands. You could just not put points in Strength and put it in Dex instead.
It lowers your damage by a WOPPING! 1 point.
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You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?
Ouch. My players had money coming out the ears when I ran Kingmaker for them and had to tell em not to sit around making money too much or I'll smite them. You really gotta build that Alchemist/Herbalist so you can sell the minor item for BP to pay for your kingdom. Just a few of them and your kingdom provides for itself. Eventually you can feel free to dip the treasury if your character falls behind. The treasurer npc obviously told...In Kingmaker, almost all the gold went into the Treasury, so by level 14, I had about 5,000g, a normal Rapier, two Aklys' I decided to get, and a +1 Cloak of Resistance I got as a reward I think during book 2. The GM later said that I got a raise after I brought back the character from a single level retirement while I tried out a Samurai Jack character (which lead to about 4 other characters by other players based off of comics and shows).No Magic item specifically makes or breaks my build. Unless you can't even get your hands on a Belt of a Dex +2 in your games in which case thats super brutal and I'm sorry for you.Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
The thing is, it seems that Sneak Attack is what it comes down to. People who play Rogue would have problems using Sneak Attack, and it is half the class. With Slayer, it doesn't take up as much space on the class, but it is still important for it.
Also Scavion, when designing a character concept, I prefer to see what I can do without relying on magic items because those specific ones aren't always available. A class has to be able to effectively rely on it's own abilities.
The Kingdom had over 300 BP... Even after getting the Waterfront... the King (played by my brother, who was playing a Paladin) didn't dip into it because he and about 2 others (out of a rather large group) kept finding rather good gear, and he didn't realize that no one else was in need of gear because they never bothered asking (I guess, I never really bothered finding out why he didn't dip into the Treasury). The game is in hiatus due to us getting about 3 more players, and the Samurai Jack character was rather
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?
Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?
Str 16(with racial already)
Dex 15Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 10
Thats 19 out of 20 points. Feel free to fiddle. Strength and Dex isn't too negotiable at this far down. Feel free to put the 12 in one of the other stats if you like.
I would put put that 12 in int, since that determines the DC for some abilities. Optional, but at least 3.
Assassinate, Slowing Strike, and your Capstone. Its not a great idea and Save or Dies are lame anyways. I don't see the appeal unless you really want to make Bluff work.
Now grabbing 13 Charisma for Eldritch Heritage. That could be cool.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.
These are using Human as the Race, if you request a race I could see about coming up with stats.
15 Points
STR - 10 (Assuming you rely on Favored Target and/or Sneak Attack, and you don't carry to much)
DEX - 16 (Including +2 from being Human)
CON - 10 (Has d10 Hit die already)
INT - 14 (Those Extra Skill points are always useful, and it is good to be the smart guy)
WIS - 12 (To at least assist Survival, though it could be higher)
CHA - 13 (Always good to be the charming guy, especially if you like roleplaying)
For 20 Points, I'd put the 5 points either all into Strength for bonus damage and increased carrying capacity, or raising CHA to 14, and WIS to 14.
I would put put that 12 in int, since that determines the DC for some abilities. Optional, but at least 3.Assassinate, Slowing Strike, and your Capstone. Its not a great idea and Save or Dies are lame anyways. I don't see the appeal unless you really want to make Bluff work.
Now grabbing 13 Charisma for Eldritch Heritage. That could be cool.
Grab Improved Eldritch Heritage when possible and go for Orc or Abyssal, and your doing amazing damage with a bonus from Strength. I'm currently going for the Orc Bloodline with Mythic Eldritch Heritage in WoTR, and it seems that this bonus damage would benefit the Slayer also.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.These are using Human as the Race, if you request a race I could see about coming up with stats.
15 Points
STR - 10 (Assuming you rely on Favored Target and/or Sneak Attack, and you don't carry to much)
DEX - 16 (Including +2 from being Human)
CON - 10 (Has d10 Hit die already)
INT - 14 (Those Extra Skill points are always useful, and it is good to be the smart guy)
WIS - 12 (To at least assist Survival, though it could be higher)
CHA - 13 (Always good to be the charming guy, especially if you like roleplaying)
For 20 Points, I'd put the 5 points either all into Strength for bonus damage and increased carrying capacity, or raising CHA to 14, and WIS to 14.
Hrm. I feel you should really lower Dex and use a two hander and a bow for low point builds. Or a sword and buckler. That could be cool.
Something like
Str- 14
Dex- 12(Including +2 Human)
Con- 10
Int- 14
Wis- 12
Cha- 13
Two Weapon Fighting just doesn't work well without nice stats, but this way you'll put out solid damage and make good use of that Martial Proficiency. I kept your roleplaying stats the same =)
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
Level 10 Human Ranger (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary
Str:20(22) (Base 16+2Human and Ability points at 4 and 8)
Dex:12
Con:14(16)
Int:10
Wis:13
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
2: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Double Slice
5: Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Saber)
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7: Boon Companion
9: improved critical (sawtooth saber)
10: Two Weapon Rend
Gear:
Belt of Physical Might (+2 Str and Con)
+2 Sawtooth Saber
+2 Sawtooth Saber
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Skills: 10 Ranks +3 Class Skill on each
Acrobatics +14
Climb +19
Perception +14
Stealth +14
Survival +14
Handle Animal +13
Knowledge Nature +13
DEFENSES
HP: 99
AC: 23
Fort:+13 Ref:+11 Will:+7
OFFENSES:
Favored Enemies:
Undead: +4/+4
Humanoid Human:+4/+4
Evil Outsiders:+2/+2
Attack Bonus Calculation: 10(BAB)+6(Str)+2(Wep.En)+1(Wep Focus)-2(Two Weapon Fighting)= +17
Ranger always flanks with his full-level animal companion:
+19/+19/+14/+14
Damage: 1d8+8/1d8+8/1d8+8/1d8+8
If two attacks hit: Rend for 1d10+9
Attack Bonus while P.A and flanking: +16/+16/+11/+11
Damage: 1d8+14/1d8+14/1d8+11/1d8+11
If two attacks hit: Rend for 1d10+9
Attacks from flanking companion:
Lets just pick an easy one, the Wolf:
Str:25 Dex:16 Con:20 Int:2 Wis:12 Cha:6
Lowlight vision, Scent
Feats: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus Bite, Iron Will
Gear: Collar of Mighty Fists +1, Breastplate barding
Other: Evasion, Devotion, Link, Share Spells, 10 tricks, and 9 skills
DEFENSES
AC:27 (+10 natural, +3 dex, +5 armor, -1 size)
HP: 85
Saves: Fort +11 Ref +9 Will +6(+10 vs compulsion)
OFFENSE
Bite +14, 2d8+11 plus Trip
CMB: +15
CMD: 27
Plus the ranger still gets spells.
So the ranger, who got access to more feats with his combat style, is dealing more damage with Two-Weapon Rend and improved crit. Your slayer was dealing +3 damage per hit, but even if all four hit, that is only +12. Average two weapon rend is 14.5. And the ranger is criting twice as often.
The attack bonus disparity is quickly matched by the simple act of flanking with his companion... which can also get free trips to make hitting even easier.
And the Ranger has spells... so he can cast lead blades for more damage, use longstrider for better movement etc.
Plus 2 more skill points per level doesn't hurt either.
When it comes to sneak attack. Your slayer needs some sort of flank partner to ever get it, and if he does, and if affects all of his attack, and all of those attacks hit. It will average out to +12d6 AKA 42 damage on average. The ranger is already dealing better damage on his regular attacks, and he has a pet attacking for 20 average damage per round on top of that.
And he can count on his pet every single round.
You got any stats for players who are averse to dumping?Give me about 5 minutes and I'll have a set-up for that, since I hate having dump stats. I avoid having stats go under 10 unless it's part of the character concept.These are using Human as the Race, if you request a race I could see about coming up with stats.
15 Points
STR - 10 (Assuming you rely on Favored Target and/or Sneak Attack, and you don't carry to much)
DEX - 16 (Including +2 from being Human)
CON - 10 (Has d10 Hit die already)
INT - 14 (Those Extra Skill points are always useful, and it is good to be the smart guy)
WIS - 12 (To at least assist Survival, though it could be higher)
CHA - 13 (Always good to be the charming guy, especially if you like roleplaying)
For 20 Points, I'd put the 5 points either all into Strength for bonus damage and increased carrying capacity, or raising CHA to 14, and WIS to 14.
Hrm. I feel you should really lower Dex and use a two hander and a bow for low point builds. Or a sword and buckler. That could be cool.
Something like
Str- 14
Dex- 12(Including +2 Human)
Con- 10
Int- 14
Wis- 12
Cha- 13Two Weapon Fighting just doesn't work well without nice stats, but this way you'll put out solid damage and make good use of that Martial Proficiency. I kept your roleplaying stats the same =)
I'll give you that, though I usually play a Two Weapon Rogue when I do play one, so I was biased in that.
I'm waiting for a Dev to come to this thread, see this conversation which has gone on for hours, and think "What the heck have they been talking about this whole time?"
Edit: I'm not used to having access to medium armor, shields, martial weapons AND sneak attack in one class.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
I don't feel its a fair comparison saying the Slayer just doesn't have a flanking buddy while the Ranger's AC is always considered to be able to get into flanking. The Slayer has 3 other party members. One of them has to be flanking material.
That said next level our Slayer picks up Two Weapon Rend and is back on par dealing more damage albeit critting less often. A ranger gets Quarry for generally one enemy a day.
With the future Slayer talents I'm sure the Slayer will be more than enough to keep par with the Ranger.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
I don't feel its a fair comparison saying the Slayer just doesn't have a flanking buddy while the Ranger's AC is always considered to be able to get into flanking. The Slayer has 3 other party members. One of them has to be flanking material.
That said next level our Slayer picks up Two Weapon Rend and is back on par dealing more damage albeit critting less often. A ranger gets Quarry for generally one enemy a day.
With the future Slayer talents I'm sure the Slayer will be more than enough to keep par with the Ranger.
The slayer, might be able to get someone to flank with them, but play enough rogues (i have) and you will find that this is much easier said than done.
The animal companion is controlled by the ranger, and will follow his lead. It is all but guaranteed that they will flank. Either way, the companion is dealing about half of the Slayer SA damage (assuming the slayer gets a full-attack and they all hit) with its single attack. The slayer will need to get more than 50% of all his attacks as sneak attacks before this is at all better than the AC.
The Slayer will indeed pick up two-weapon rend, but then at level 11, the Ranger grabs greater TWF, and your slayer is looking around trying to get another +2 dex. Where is that coming from?
Either he has to drop his +2 str/dex belt to get a +4 dex belt, which will hurt his damage and hit bonus, or he has to wait until he can get a +4/+4 belt (according to WBL he will need level 13 before he can get one)
So again, the ranger is still likely to be on top, and definitively on top when fighting one of his favored enemies.
Plus 2 skill points per level
Plus spellcasting.
The point is not for the Slayer to be about equal to the Ranger in combat. Right now, that is what I am seeing. The point is that the Ranger has more utility and versatility than the Slayer with more skills and access to some very nice spells. The ranger's companion is a very nice add-on, that in this case is making trip attempts every round, can act as a mount, has scent for perceiving things etc.
So, since the Slayer is supposed to be more focused on combat, why isn't it doing a better job than a straight up ranger?
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
There was nothing stopping Scavion's build from swapping Combat Reflexes and Opportunist for Two Weapon Rend and Improved Critical. I can't help but notice your build doesn't have those two things. So if your argument hinges on that, then you're not winning anything. All you have left is the animal companion flanking and attacking. But if a slayer is flanking or getting sneak attack by other means, it's accounting for twice as much damage as the AC. The slayer just isn't as guaranteed to have a flank buddy.
It's as if they're two separate but equally valid classes.
And you can't just assume that the AC will play out perfectly every time. It's not always guaranteed to flank, it's not guaranteed to hit, it's not even guaranteed to survive an encounter.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
I don't feel its a fair comparison saying the Slayer just doesn't have a flanking buddy while the Ranger's AC is always considered to be able to get into flanking. The Slayer has 3 other party members. One of them has to be flanking material.
That said next level our Slayer picks up Two Weapon Rend and is back on par dealing more damage albeit critting less often. A ranger gets Quarry for generally one enemy a day.
With the future Slayer talents I'm sure the Slayer will be more than enough to keep par with the Ranger.
The slayer, might be able to get someone to flank with them, but play enough rogues (i have) and you will find that this is much easier said than done.
The animal companion is controlled by the ranger, and will follow his lead. It is all but guaranteed that they will flank. Either way, the companion is dealing about half of the Slayer SA damage (assuming the slayer gets a full-attack and they all hit) with its single attack. The slayer will need to get more than 50% of all his attacks as sneak attacks before this is at all better than the AC.
The Slayer will indeed pick up two-weapon rend, but then at level 11, the Ranger grabs greater TWF, and your slayer is looking around trying to get another +2...
We're still in playtest mate. You can't call the winner when we've only done 1 lap of a 5 lap race.
Animal Companions are a bit of vagueness. Some DMs control it, Sometimes the player does, and sometimes you have to make skill checks to make it work. You have to spend 2 tricks to get it to attack all monster types, a trick to make it flank, a trick to give it defend orders. Without the Down trick it continues to fight until feared or slain.
Most DMs will let you get a stat item on another slot so I could have a +2 Str Gloves(Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2) and a +4 Dex belt if need be.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
There was nothing stopping Scavion's build from swapping Combat Reflexes and Opportunist for Two Weapon Rend and Improved Critical. I can't help but notice your build doesn't have those two things. So if your argument hinges on that, then you're not winning anything. All you have left is the animal companion flanking and attacking. But if a slayer is flanking or getting sneak attack by other means, it's accounting for twice as much damage as the AC. The slayer just isn't as guaranteed to have a flank buddy.
It's as if they're two separate but equally valid classes.
Thanks Davick. I totally forgot about that. So yeah they're pretty equal with the Slayer coming out on top against any enemies the Ranger isn't ready for.
The Slayer will indeed pick up two-weapon rend, but then at level 11, the Ranger grabs greater TWF, and your slayer is looking around trying to get another +2...
Pfft. Who uses Greater TWF? You take that and the slayer can get Combat Reflexes back or any other feat that's still useful.
Meanwhile when I'm in a fight with a human cleric, his orc bodyguard and pet worg, I'll be getting +3 to all of them, while you hope to get +6 to one of them.
Wow.... it's as if they're two separate yet equal classes.
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For those of us who'd prefer DEX-based melee slayers, I'd like to recommend the following talent:
Agile Slayer - (prerequisite: Weapon Finesse feat or Finesse Slayer talent) When wearing light or no armor, and when wielding a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat, the slayer can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
The advantages to using this talent (STR being a dump stat and DEX being used for to hit, damage, and AC) would be balanced by the fact that it would require a feat or talent to obtain it, it can't be utilized while wearing medium armor, you couldn't benefit from the 1 1/2 times your DEX modifier that you'd get from a STR-based weapon wielded two-handed, piranha strike does not offer a way to increase it's damage to 1 1/2 times the regular value, as power attack does, and the DEX-based slayer would not receive much benefit from feats like Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
There was nothing stopping Scavion's build from swapping Combat Reflexes and Opportunist for Two Weapon Rend and Improved Critical. I can't help but notice your build doesn't have those two things. So if your argument hinges on that, then you're not winning anything. All you have left is the animal companion flanking and attacking. But if a slayer is flanking or getting sneak attack by other means, it's accounting for twice as much damage as the AC. The slayer just isn't as guaranteed to have a flank buddy.
It's as if they're two separate but equally valid classes.
And you can't just assume that the AC will play out perfectly every time. It's not always guaranteed to flank, it's not guaranteed to hit, it's not even guaranteed to survive an encounter.
Well, firstly, that AC has the same armor class and ac as the ranger, so if it is dying, the ranger should also be in big trouble.
Yes, I suppose you can talk about table variance, but a ranger has no problem making the checks to handle his companion, and that companion would have six tricks base plus 4 more from companion advancement, so still not an issue.But primarily, what I am saying is that the Slayer is not actually a stronger combatant than a ranger, and since it has to give up most of the ranger's utility (skill points, versatile companion, and most importantly spells) then it should be better in combat. And this shouldn't be a question of maybe dealing 1 or 2 extra points of damage unless it is a rangers favored enemy.
This is a full martial, with very limited utility, and the standard 1d10 HD, that doesn't get heavy armor, and doesn't get bonus feats, and doesn't get fighter feats... it needs, effectively to be the best offensive martial before a barbarian.
Favored Target takes an action, and its nice and all, but its basically weapon training right?
Sneak attack has a whole list of problems, and frankly, I don't know what else needs to be said about it that I haven't said about it.
But just as a baseline, compare to a fighter and you lose all of your bonus feats. You get a modified weapon training. You get a strong Reflex save. You lose heavy armor. You lose access to fighter feats. You gain sneak attack and some talents. You lose armor training.
I dunno, I just don't see it. If sneak attack is equal to combat style, spells and an animal companion.... I guess I will just take ranger.
And the problem I have with that is that I really wanted a no-companion choice that actually works but keeps the ranger flavor... and this just isnt it.
Sneak Attack needs to GO.
There are a few ways to do it, they have been discussed. The slayer, needs to be an offensive juggernaut. They don't have the HP, the utility, the defenses, the skills, the spells... so it all comes down to being simply excellent at just killing things.
They aren't there right now, and on top of that, the class is also pretty bland.
Again. You can't call a winner when we're on lap 1 of a 5 lap race. Sneak Attack is fine where it is. Favored Target is a swift action to use so it's hardly an action at all for the Slayer. Favored Target isn't a modified Weapon Training. Its just plain better. Its an Attack/Damage boost against all enemies with a better bonus no matter what your using. A 2hander and Ranged build probably do quite well as well. In fact a Slayer archer will always deal more damage than a ranger would unless hes shooting his favored enemy.
Without sneak attacking, I match your ranger in DPR.
With it I leave him in the dust.
Heavy armor isn't special. In fact theres close to no advantage for wearing heavy armor.
When they release more talent support for the Slayer I can see him easily trumping the Ranger in general combat ability with the Ranger only coming ahead when fighting his best favored enemies.
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Slayers are terrible before 10th level. It simply isn't worth giving up a move action to get a small bonus against one target in combat.
Post 10th level, their core mechanic works better, but all the class abilities they get suck. Swift Tracking, etc., are not the reason why people pick a class to play.
Instead of playing a class that gives you +5/+5 against a limited number of targets, I'd rather play a Swashbuckler, and get +5/+5 against all targets, and have a more useful class ability.
How is +1 to hit +1 damage NOT weapon training?
maybe I misspoke.
I meant Weapon Training, the fighter class feature.
The one that gives you +1 to hit and +1 damage and scales at 5,9,13,17,20
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Listen, I hope this whole thing works out, and I am fully hoping to be wrong. I also accept that after many rogues, I have become biased against sneak attack as a major class feature.
But I am not sure this class really stand alone just yet.
Personally, I would like to see the Slayer be able to take a Ranger Combat style as a Slayer Talent (just one feat each time he takes it, has to pick one style only)
And I think that Favored Target should be a swift action at 6th rather than 10th. (i also wouldn't mind doubling the attack bonus on confirmation rolls)
If sneak attack is a part of the class, fine... but it should probably scale a bit better and start a bit earlier. The Slayer is losing a LOT from the ranger.
Favored Target isn't a modified Weapon Training. Its just plain better. Its an Attack/Damage boost against all enemies with a better bonus no matter what your usingHow is it better? The skill bonuses? It costs a move to get the exact same attack and damage bonus a Fighter will get. The Fighter will get that with his preferred weapon type on every attack and against enemy made with the weapon at no additional cost and some little benefits with combat maneuvers. The only time it really gets any better is by level 20.
Uh because at 5th level its already better? Weapon Training only catches up at 9th, then falls behind at 10th picking up back at 13th? Because at 5th level Favored Target gets you a +2 to Attack/Damage while Weapon Training gives you a +1 to one specific weapon group till you get the later versions.
Weapon Training is never actually better than Favored Target.
For talents, I think it makes sense to give the slayer "any rogue talent which modifies or improves sneak attack". Then sneak attack talents can just be written for the rogue, while the slayer can get more specific talents that have synergy with his favored target class feature.
Thats a good thought. Some debuffin to go with the DPR.
Favored Target isn't a modified Weapon Training. Its just plain better. Its an Attack/Damage boost against all enemies with a better bonus no matter what your usingHow is it better? The skill bonuses? It costs a move to get the exact same attack and damage bonus a Fighter will get. The Fighter will get that with his preferred weapon type on every attack and against enemy made with the weapon at no additional cost and some little benefits with combat maneuvers. The only time it really gets any better is by level 20.Uh because at 5th level its already better? Weapon Training only catches up at 9th, then falls behind at 10th picking up back at 13th? Because at 5th level Favored Target gets you a +2 to Attack/Damage while Weapon Training gives you a +1 to one specific weapon group till you get the later versions.
Weapon Training is never actually better than Favored Target.
Well, that is until the fighter gets some Gloves of Dueling.
Anyway, the point was that they are very similar.
Ah don't know how I missed it at level 1. Lol, thanks for the correction.Favored Target isn't a modified Weapon Training. Its just plain better. Its an Attack/Damage boost against all enemies with a better bonus no matter what your usingHow is it better? The skill bonuses? It costs a move to get the exact same attack and damage bonus a Fighter will get. The Fighter will get that with his preferred weapon type on every attack and against enemy made with the weapon at no additional cost and some little benefits with combat maneuvers. The only time it really gets any better is by level 20.Uh because at 5th level its already better? Weapon Training only catches up at 9th, then falls behind at 10th picking up back at 13th? Because at 5th level Favored Target gets you a +2 to Attack/Damage while Weapon Training gives you a +1 to one specific weapon group till you get the later versions.
Weapon Training is never actually better than Favored Target.
No problem. Its really really good =). Better if you make alot of attacks of course.
Knowing Grin: When a Slayer selects only one Favored Target, his target finds it particularly unnerving. If a Slayer chooses to focus on one (and only one) Favored Target, that Favored Target is considered flanked to the Slayer. Creatures that are immune to flanking are immune to this effect. Ranged attacks do not gain this bonus.
There, give this ability somewhere in the early levels, perhaps when they get their second bonus to skills, and you have a single target assassin character in melee.
Okay, so enough tearing down. The class is what it is, so lets try to build it up.
Going to work with 20 points, core books only, level 12. I have always liked this as a stopping point since it covers many campaigns.
Human Slayer lvl 12.
Str 14(16)
Dex 21(23) (2 race, 3 levels)
Con 12(14)
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 10
Feats/Talents:
1 Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
2 Finesse Slayer
3 Improved Feint
4 Weapon Training (Short Sword)
5 Two-Weapon Feint
6 Combat Trick: Improved two-weapon fighting
7 Improved Two-Weapon Feint
8 Foil Scrutiny
9 Double Slice
10 feat: Power attack
11 Two-Weapon Rend
12 Opportunist
Gear:
+2 belt of physical perfection
Headband of the ninjitsu
+3 cloak of resistance
+1 ring of protection
+1 amulet of natural armor
Featherstep slippers
Vambraces of the duelist
Circlet of persuasion
2x +2 shortswords
+3 mithral breastplate
DEFENSES
AC: 26
Fort:+14 Ref:+17 Will:+7
HP: 106
OFFENSIVE SERIES
Full-Attack Sequence
Use Favored Target, Sacrifice Your first attack to feint +22 (12 ranks, +3 probably will be a class skill or take a trait, +2 headband, +3 circlet, +2 foil scrutiny)
Make the rest of your attack against a dexless target
Attack Bonus +24/+19/+21/+14/+14 (+12 bab, +6 dex, +1 focus, +2 weapon, +2 headband, +3 favored target, -2 TWF, vambraces add 2 to one offhand strike)
Damage on each hit will get SA, so 1d6+4d6+8 (+3 favored target, +2 weapon, +3 str)
Average damage per hit: 25.5
Power attack is condtional since it will tank your hit bonus, but that will add +8 to mainhand strikes and +4 to OH.
Versus a standard dexless CR 12 AC of appx 27, you have the following hit chances:
<90%, 65%, 75%, 40%, 40%> each has a 10% chance to crit, adding 1d6+8 dmg (11.5), with an averaged confirm chance of 62% so we will call that 6.2% chance for a confirmed crit per attack. This works out to .25 confirmed crits per attack sequence.
So, total average DPR with a full attack, assuming feint works against a CR 12 monster: ~82
Soooo, its back to the drawing board on this build
Isn't two weapon feint a swift action, same as favored target? You'd need to get to round 2 for that dpr to be correct?
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So DPR Check, let's see what we can do and if this is to high, to low, or just right.
20 PB, 2 traits, 10th level. Try and break it.
This one is for you Ciretose.
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks.
I'm too sleep deprived for math as I've been up with a sick 2 year old, but I'll take a look in the morning.
The fact that it adds basically +20 to damage with sneak attack without even going two-handed confirms to me that we are talking fighter/barb range of damage.
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The slayer doesn't seem too bad to me so far, but it could probably use 6 skill points a level and also it needs a lot of love for those talents.
For one, it seems like there's 4 talents dealing with ranged sneak attacks, but none of them give any real great options for getting more than 1 round of them.
Sneak Attacks at range usually require a teammate to help and none of the pile of talent options seem to change that outside the surprise round. Their should be a third talent requiring both "Sniper's Eye" and "Surprise Attack" as prerequisites that makes ranged sneak attacking a thing. Otherwise you need a 20,000gp item, or teammates casting grease.
You probably meant "it" rather than "them", since in the surprise round, it'll usually be one ranged SA you make.
I agree with Malkov's fundamental premise: the Slayer loses a LOT of ranger things, and picks up essentially nothing but Sneak Attack. That means 6/10ths of SA is being valued as highly as combat styles, animal companion, and spells put together. That seems very overpriced to me.
Here's a brief list of old and new suggestions:
Issue - Between SA and talents, Slayer doesn't draw strongly enough from rogue. Solution - More, but not all, the Rogue talents, especially those that are combat related. Assault Leader, for one. Add additional talents related to SA, or just combat generally. Perhaps make Slayer Sneak a copy of Deadly Sneak with no prereq, other than being an Advanced Slayer Talent. Also, Trapfinding as a talent would be lovely.
Issue - (some) People hate sneak attack. Solution - make it easier to qualify for via some class feature, or change it to a modified version of SA. Preferably the class feature, since making it not SA kills the level stacking should you (for some ungodly reason) make a multiclass Slayer.
Issue - It doesn't seem to push any stats, except generic melee ones. Solution - Make a handful of abilities, low enough to be useful but too high to dip (beginning at 2 or 3, I suggest), that key off whatever this guy's secondary stat is. Int? Based on the capstone, it's int. So perhaps a level 2 feature that adds int to init. This also helps (slightly) get more chance at sneak attacks while alleviating the 4+ skills a level.
Issue - Slayer doesn't have a solid niche. Sneak Attack isn't a niche, and almost every martial class has a way to gain bonuses to hit and damage, be it Rage, Weapon Training, Grit, Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, whatever. Solution - I dunno. I'm taking suggestions on this one. But seriously, as much as I love the flavor of the class, he's a Ranger with Sneak Attack, but minus all the moving parts and versatility. Or he's a Rogue, minus his actual party role, and then mounted on a martial chassis.
I second Virilitas's idea of somehow, in some way, making ranged sneak attacks the Slayer thing. The +10' range option is already pointing that way. Make that the Slayer Thing.
Issue - Without broad SA applicability (because of poor subtypes, lack of reliable access to flanking, etc), Slayer combat is inferior to Ranger combat, thanks to Combat Styles. Solution - Slayer Combat Styles.
Alright heres my suggestion.
7th Slayer Combat Style: A Slayer may choose 1 combat feat with a Prerequisite of +6 BAB ignoring any other prerequisites.
12th Improved Slayer Combat Style: A Slayer may choose 1 combat feat with a prerequisite of +11 BAB ignoring any other prerequisite.
17th Greater Slayer Combat Style: A Slayer may choose 1 combat feat with a prerequisite of +16 BAB ignoring any other prerequisite.
Hypothetically this could allow Slayers to do crazy things, but heres to Martial Meatgrindering!
The slayer definitely has a lot of potential and seems fairly well designed. My biggest quirk is that the selection of talents is somewhat limited. A suggestion would be to add a few Ranger Tricks to the list.
Unlike many others I like the fact that it only gets 4+Int Skill points. Really what we are looking at here is a kick ass martial class and not so much a skill monkey. 6+ Int skill points would make this too good and Int dumping too easy. Also Trapfinding would be totally out of place.
The Class looks like it could make for an excellent switch hitter (maybe with thrown weapons?) also I think that picking up an animal companion via Animal Ally could go a long way for this class.
I have some issue with favored Target or what it's called. Between level 5 and 10 it will rarely be worth activating with a move action and after level 10 it becomes extremely powerful. My suggestion would be to slow down the progression a bit but make it a swift action as of level 7 or so.
Here's a possible 10th level slayer build (20 pts.) that uses an animal companion and some teamwork feats. Idea is to fight with 2 keen Kukris and get wolf friend to flank.
Hasted you'll on average provoke 1 attack of opportunity from outflank, which grants Wolf friend an AoO from Paired Opportunist which then grants you one in turn. Opportunist also grants you two AoO and Wolf 1 if I read things correctly but I may be off on that one. If the latter doesn't work then you'd have to swap Oportunist for ITWF.
Anyways a flanking team of wolf and Slayer can get somewhere around 15 attacks in on one poor dude per turn.
Another nice trick with an AC would be giving it the bodyguard Archetype and both guys taking outflank. That way you could both take a full round action in the surprise round. Much hurt to be spread there especially if your riding your wolf.
Human Slayer 10
STR 12 (2)
DEX 20 (17)
CON 14 (5)
INT 8 (-2)
WIS 12 (2)
CHA 7 (-4)
Feats& Slayer Talents
1 TWF
1 HB: Nature Soul
2 Finesse
3 Combat Reflexes
4 WF: Kukri
5 Animal Ally
6 Surprise Attack
7 Boon Companion
8 Outflank
9 Paired Opportunist
10 Advaned Talent: Opportunist
Wolf
STR 24 Dex 16 CON 20 WIS INT 3 CHA 6 WIS 12
AC 22
Feats: Power Attack Combat Reflexes WF: Bite Paired Opportunist Outflank
Here's a possible 10th level slayer build (20 pts.) that uses an animal companion and some teamwork feats. Idea is to fight with 2 keen Kukris and get wolf friend to flank.
Hasted you'll on average provoke 1 attack of opportunity from outflank, which grants Wolf friend an AoO from Paired Opportunist which then grants you one in turn. Opportunist also grants you two AoO and Wolf 1 if I read things correctly but I may be off on that one. If the latter doesn't work then you'd have to swap Oportunist for ITWF.Anyways a flanking team of wolf and Slayer can get somewhere around 15 attacks in on one poor dude per turn.
Another nice trick with an AC would be giving it the bodyguard Archetype and both guys taking outflank. That way you could both take a full round action in the surprise round. Much hurt to be spread there especially if your riding your wolf.
Human Slayer 10
STR 12 (2)
DEX 20 (17)
CON 14 (5)
INT 8 (-2)
WIS 12 (2)
CHA 7 (-4)Feats& Slayer Talents
1 Lookout
1 HB: Nature Soul
2 Finesse
3 Combat Reflexes
4 WF: Kukri
5 Animal Ally
6 Surprise Attack
7 Boon Companion
8 Outflank
9 Paired Opportunist
10 Advaned Talent: OpportunistWolf
STR 24 Dex 16 CON 20 WIS INT 3 CHA 6 WIS 12
AC 22
Feats: Power Attack Combat Reflexes WF: Bite Paired Opportunist Outflank
I like it. However you don't have Two Weapon Fighting...
That is alot of attacks of opportunity heh.
Edited... yeah that's supposed to be the first level feat. However the current build has no room for ITWF which is a bummer. But if it works out the way I think it does opportunist is just plain better.
Also the build borrows heavily from STRranger's TWF ranger so credit where credit is due...
From a DPR perspective the build might actually be better if it dropped TWF all together and stuck with Falchion and a high STR but I haven't done the math. I don't think there is a reach weapon with 18-20 crit range but that of course would be perfect for the build. A build that forgoes TWF could incorporate Lookout for surprise round full round actions. That would be very slayersque but prolly better suited to an Archery build.
Alex Mack, the thing about it being a martial class is that they manage to make it using two classes that are both skill monkeys. This class does need to be a bit of a skill monkey because they get a good amount of skills, but they don't have enough points to spread among the skills.
I get the argument but really the class feels plenty good as is, it's easily a better martial class than both the Ranger or the Rogue. In return you have to accept that it will be a worse skill monkey than either.
If you gave the class more skill points you'd really have to take something else away in return for balance sake. You could drop the HD, you could remove some abilities or tone them down.
Personally it should get a max 5d6 sneak attack but it's chosen target is always considered flat footed. If the target as uncanny dodge then the slayer has to be a level higher for it to work. Basically it studies a target in knows where too consistently strike it to get sneak attack damage.
A question about the update: Does the d10 HD also mean the slayer has full BAB? (normally these are always connected but i don't think i have ever seen a part in the rules where it says they have to be, so I'm asking)