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Ok I'm going to take a run at this.
Strip the class down to d10, full bab
Remove spells
First, remove rage song, just give straight up rage.
Give rage powers at 3rd, 6th, 9th etc. Maybe at Barb level -3
Give Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster.
Add the following:
Rage Song: As a (standard/move/swift/free whatever) action, a Skald can use his rage to motivate his allies. While raging a Skald can spend an additional round of rage to affect those around him. Skalds may use the following songs at (whatever) levels:
Coutersong
Inspire Courage
Dirge of Doom
Inspire Greatness
Inspire Heroics
Frightening Tune
Incite Rage (Savage Skald song)
Beserkergang (Savage Skald song)
New Song Reaving: All allies gain the active rage powers of the Skald. Allies need not be raging to gain the bonus of these rage powers. Rage powers that useable once per rage may not be used.
Then
Kenning: At 7th level Skald may spend 2 additional rounds of rage as a free action while maintaining a rage song to add the effects of a second rage song. at 13th he may spend an additional 2 (for a total of 4 extra rounds) to add the effects of a 3rd rage song.
Finally add something buffy in there:
Bolster: As an immediate action, a Skald may target one ally and make a Perform check. That ally may use the Skald's perform check in place of any d20 roll that they make before the beginning of their next turn.
Forgot about that. It can't cast spells when rageing. Bad.That is not true:
While under the effects of skald rage, allies (other than the skald) cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
My bad.
Here is what I would do:
D10 hit die(above average for attack progression which is consistent with the barb)
Drop spells per day maximums from class progression to 4.
Medium Armour and martial weapon proficiency(this isn't a huge mechanical boon, but it will surely help the skald be slightly less MAD and squishy early on)
Keep skills at 4+intFinally, change the ragesong mechanic so that the skald enters a rage that is consistent with the barbarian rage of his level. His rage is so impressive that it inspires courage in his allies as a bard(deals with lot's of problems that have already been mentioned). Give him the same number of inspiring rage rounds as a barbarian or bard respectively. As the skald gains rage powers, he can choose to grant those powers to his allies at the cost of an additional rage point for each rage power that he shares.
At level eight the skald could either use his rage as normal, granting his allies inspire courage, or he could triple the cost to grant rage powers to all his allies.
I think this is a balanced option that few would have issue with.
I think this sounds kind of cool although I doubt they make it a full BAB class.
Even though I would like it to keep at least 4/9 spell casting I would rather have it focus more on master pieces and performances so it gets something unique.
If one is to keep it a 6/9 caster with 3/4 BAB it need more spells known, better armor and weapon prof, more performances, some way of swift healing itself, more Barbarian stuff: DR or uncanny dodge (but perhaps not improved uncanny dodge).
I would even give it some bonus feats. Swaping out Scribe scroll and let it choose a bonus feat from a Combat list similar to the one the ranger gets.
The bonus feat should be granted at level 2 so it can pick power attack or any other feat that has a bab+1 prereq.
Example of bonus feat list: Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Arcane Strike, Power attack, Swift Aid and Discordant Voice. It should be able to pick the feat even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
One bonus feat at level 2, 10 and 18, 0r just give it one feat al level 2 and one at level 14. 14 being a dead level would be nice.
What would be really cool is less spell casting 8or same spell casting) but adding raider effects to inspire courage or mixing Bardic performances. Say it can use inspire courage AND ragning song. This would also make weak abilities like Inspire greatness and Inspire heroics useful.
Or inspire courage and add radier effects. For example abilities similar to the versatile weapon spell. That would make it really cool.
Example: Party enters a fight. Skald make Knowledge check: Hey we are facing skeletons with DR bludgeoning. Skald enters rage and add a raider effect that let all allies weapon count as bludgeoning weapon. With knowledge check being important when adding raider effects 6 skills per level is a must and Loremaster is a must.
More Barbarian (Armor prof, weapon prof, “uncanny dodge or DR”), More performances and I wouldn’t mind less spells. I don’t think d10 and full BAB is a problem since the class is MAD.
Ok I'm going to take a run at this. [...]
Not bad, but I would let it keep 4/9 casting. I would also give it new stuff such as adding raider effects to performances, se my post above.
Give it same is cool, but does it not cost too much? What if it has Lingering performance? 2 rounds to activate each new performance and then add 1 round per performance, but you can end one and use the Lingering Performance while paying for the other(s)?
Example:
Actice: Inspire Courage
Activate: Dirge of Doom cost 2 extra rounds. Ends Inspire Courage
but with lingering performance you still get the benefit from Inspire Courage for two rounds.
I woildn't mind giving the Skald Lingering Performance for free as a bonus feat instead of scribe scroll.
Also, it need some help with the MAD problem. Agree d10 and full BAB would help but I'm not sure this is enough.
I've been giving the Skald a thorough read and some heavy thinking. Here's my thoughts.
The basic premise of a raging Bard who inspires rage in his allies is a great idea with some excellent possibilities. But there's a lot of things with this class that just doesn't really connect. Abilities looks like an un-edited hodgepodge of Barbarian and Bard, with little thought gone into flavor or synergies.
It seems like it wants to be a viking skald, with blood in it's beard and fire in it's soul. But it reads like a really angry teenager with a guitar and a subscription on national geographic magazine. It just doesn't follow through.
Bardic knowledge is a great ability, but it screams "wandering minstrel", not "skald to the jarl of the summerspring fjord". The Skald might be an adventurer, but his abilities should reflect his name and be more viking/barbarian than wanderer.
Spell Kenning is a great ability, it feels very Bardic and cool. Only problem I can see with it is that the usefulness is somewhat limited, since he takes spells from a 9th level spell list and uses them on his own level 6 list, so many of the interesting spells he can use will be limited by being cast at a level where they're losing importance, because the original caster would have much higher spells anyway. But I guess it's good for the occasional Heal or buff. The added time and the terrible cost of 2 spell slots makes this ability even worse and I would only use it in the most dire emergency - where I wouldn't have the time to use it anyway. All in all it doesn't seem like it was thought through.
The Raging Song is it's own can of worms. It's a solid ability within a party of Fighters, Rangers, Brawlers and Slayers, but for everyone else it's horrible and should be shunned. A Magus will lose access to his primary damage output ability, spells. A Rogue will lose the ability to sneak up on a target. And any spellcaster will cry at the thought of being affected by the song. It has no effect on Barbarians, Bloodragers or various raging archetypes. In the campaign I run it will affect the Skald himself, because everyone else (a full 5 people) will have to opt out, or lose their actual function to become ineffective barbarians.
It's weapon proficiencies should also get a do-over. No self-respecting Skald should ever use a rapier or a whip. Give them handaxe and battleaxe instead.
All-in-all I like the ideas behind the class, it just doesn't deliver on what was promised and what it delivers is disastrous to most members of any average party.
Here is what I would do:
D10 hit die(above average for attack progression which is consistent with the barb)
Drop spells per day maximums from class progression to 4.
Medium Armour and martial weapon proficiency(this isn't a huge mechanical boon, but it will surely help the skald be slightly less MAD and squishy early on)
Keep skills at 4+intFinally, change the ragesong mechanic so that the skald enters a rage that is consistent with the barbarian rage of his level. His rage is so impressive that it inspires courage in his allies as a bard(deals with lot's of problems that have already been mentioned). Give him the same number of inspiring rage rounds as a barbarian or bard respectively. As the skald gains rage powers, he can choose to grant those powers to his allies at the cost of an additional rage point for each rage power that he shares.
At level eight the skald could either use his rage as normal, granting his allies inspire courage, or he could triple the cost to grant rage powers to all his allies.
I think this is a balanced option that few would have issue with.
I think this sounds kind of cool although I doubt they make it a full BAB class.
Even though I would like it to keep at least 4/9 spell casting I would rather have it focus more on master pieces and performances so it gets something unique.
If one is to keep it a 6/9 caster with 3/4 BAB it need more spells known, better armor and weapon prof, more performances, some way of swift healing itself, more Barbarian stuff: DR or uncanny dodge (but perhaps not improved uncanny dodge).
I would even give it some bonus feats. Swaping out Scribe scroll and let it choose a bonus feat from a Combat list similar to the one the ranger gets.
The bonus feat should be granted at level 2 so it can pick power attack or any other feat that has a bab+1 prereq.Example of bonus feat list: Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Arcane Strike, Power attack, Swift Aid and Discordant Voice. It should be...
I may have been unclear when I said adding D10 hit die. I meant that you would keep 3/4 bab and have above average hit die, which is consistent with the barb.
When I was referring to reduced casting, I was asserting that the loss of one spell per level would be appropriate to keep the class within balance thresholds. In this case, a skald would only get up to four spells per day of the sixth level instead of the standard bards five.
In a nutshell, reduced casting and most of the skill versatility gone for some more combat support potential that is consistent with the theme of the class.
Seriously. I've played a bard many times. The spell casting start to lag seriously after level 8.
If this MAD class is gonna keep the 3/4 BAB and getting nerfed with 4/9 casting it needs a total rewrite giving it bonus feat, lot of new Powers, Cool new performances, etc.
Considering this is one of the two last classes that was announced I take it this is one of the least popular classes, or should I say, one of the classes were they spent less working on.
What is upsetting me is that the Bard was the class that was finished last and that it has more or less been admitted that they worked on the Core rule book under a time pressure and they didn’t get all the stuff with the bard fixed. It was a rush job. Versatile performance is a good example of it.
What does the bard really get apart from 3/4 BAB, 6/9 casting, Baridc Knowledge and inspire courage? The bard shines at level 4-8. After that other abilities are too little too late (with the possible exception of Frightening tune) and spell casting start to lag. Once you hit level 13 (or 14) there is no point in staying bard. With all the new 6/9 casters, versatility is no longer only the Bards domain. Not to mention the lack of good Magic items that boost the Bard, or should I say the total lack of such items. And the Masterpieces speaks for themselves.
Why should people care about the Skald of they don’t even care about or understand the Bard? If you like the Barbarian you are, like me, really excited about the Bloodrager. If you like the bard/are a bard lover you know this class is not for you and you also know that other people usually don’t understand the bard and can’t bother with this thread or with the class.
Unless this class metamorphosis into something completely new, this will probably end up being one of the least played classes. Who is going to play it? Who is even going to want to have it in a party unless the party is all fighters. If you can’t get any new cool toys to the bard then it is pretty obvious the Skald will suffer too.
I love Bards. Even if I have some issues with the Bard, the Bard is great, especially with one or two levels fighter (or ranger or Paladin). There is nothing great about this class. There is nothing new or exciting about this class.
I like Trogdar's idea. Much like the barbarian is the only class with d12 hit die, how about skald being the only 3/4 baby class with a d10!
BAB is tided to HD, thus I don't like the exception. It will only confuse some people.
Also, i fail to se how 1 HP extra per level is going to fix the class.
How about this as something that adds to versatility.
Perhaps something like New Arcana, or a feat like Unsanctioned Knowledge. Being able to pick one more spell known per level from Bard, Sorcerer or Magus class would make it more versatile.
An arcane version similar to that of feat Unsanctioned Knowledge would be cool. Although make it a bit more flexible. Like being able to trade a higher level spell for a lower level spell, but not the other way around. So you get one more spell known each spell level, but you can choose to pick two level 1 spells, one level 2 spell, no level 3 spell and one level 4 spell.
(Could be a feat that even bards could pick, but Bards only gets 4 spells (highest spell level is 4). It would make caster bards far more appealing.)
Currently playtesting a group with a Skald. We found getting Scribe Scroll, Bardic Knowledge and Lore Master against type for the class. The person playing the Skald commented that Scribe Scroll is an odd addition to a class named after a figure steeped in an oral tradition. The others are obviously left over from the Bard class, but felt like they didn't fit with the class concept.
Things I felt that might take it's place:
-War Paint: While it's not necessarily historically accurate that vikings, or the Celts used war paint, it is good cinematic drama to put on fearsome paint that can inspire fear in their opponents. Perhaps at 1st level, a Skald can apply the paint to themselves, and at higher levels s/he can add more targets.
-Inspire Greatness: Of all of the abilities that the Bard get that fits with the Skaldic tradition of stroking the egos of their patrons: Inspire Greatness seems to fit.
This thread is for discussing the Skald. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
The following official updates apply to the Skald.
• The skald should have Perform (sing) as a class skill.
• The reference to the bard spell lists should refer to pages 224–226 in the Core Rulebook.
• We will be discussing whether a barbarian or bloodrager can use her rage or bloodrage abilities under the influence of raging song. For now, they don't.
• We will be discussing revisions to the spell kennings ability to make it simpler to use.
• Allies moving out of range of ragesong (and back in again) is an issue we will discuss.
• We will discuss revisions to the weapon proficiencies to make them more suitable for viking-type characters.
• Clarification: It is not an error that dirge of doom does not list a saving throw, as it is based on the bard ability of that name, which does not allow a saving throw.
• Clarification: Ragesong can still affect a creature if it is fatigued, as the ability lacks the exclusion for fatigued creatures.
Further clarification questions that have come up in playtesting and character creation:
Do skalds count as having rage for the purposes of taking feats, traits, etc.? Our skald wanted to take the feat Blood Vengeance, but needed to know if he counts as having rage for the effect that states that if you are raging and an ally goes to negative HP or is killed, you gain an additional +2 Str/Con.
I may have missed this, but can skalds take feats relating to bardic performance, or is ragesong its own unique class ability? Our skald wanted to know if he could take feats like War Singer and Extra Performance.
Okay, so here is my suggested solution
The Skald gets the ability to Rage. This is still called Ragesong.
His rage starts at +2/+2 with -1 AC +1 will saves and he can still cast.
It increases to +4/+4 at level 8, and +6/+6 at level 16.
Then, instead of giving allies rage, the Skald has access to a rage power every 2 levels (just like a barbarian) but, much like the Bloodrager, his powers are very different
He gets rage powers that are like this:
Inspiring Rage: Allies other than the Skald within 30ft gain a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and will saves against fear.
Improved Inspiring Rage: The bonuses granted by Inspiring rage are increased by 1. A Skald must be level 6 to select this power.
Greater Inspiring Rage: The bonuses granted by Inspiring rage are increased by 1. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted from Improved Inspiring rage. A Skald must be level 12 to select this power.
Dampening Song: When the Skald is Raging, allies other than the Skald within 30ft gain DR/-1. This DR stacks with any DR that comes from a class feature (like a barbarian's DR). A Skald must be level 8 to select this power.
Improved Dampening Song: The DR granted by Dampening Song increases to DR 2/-.
Invigorating Shout: When the Skald enters a rage he unleashes a great shout that bolsters his companions. When the Skald begins his rage, each ally other than the Skald within 30ft that can hear his shout gains temporary hitpoints equal to the Skald's level.
Tenacious Taunt: When raging, the Skald can taunt an enemy by making an intimidate check to demoralize that foe. Rather than becoming shaken, on a successful intimidate check the target must attack the Skald or target the Skald with a spell on its next turn. If the enemy can't attack the Skald it must spend its turn moving toward the Skald instead. Once an enemy has been targeted by Tenacious Taunt it cannot be targeted again for 24 hours.
Baffling Bellow: When raging, as a standard action, the Skald can craft a dizzying barrage of pejorative prose. The skald chooses one enemy within 30ft which must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 the Skald's level + Charisma) or be confused for 1 round. The enemy must be able to hear the skald for this effect to work. Once an enemy has been targeted by Baffling Bellow it cannot be targeted again for 24 hours.
Anyway, you get the point. Lots of stuff in this vein that lets the Skald help allies and debuff foes as a bard should, while avoiding all the pitfalls of simply allowing the Skald to enrage his allies.
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Wanted to post my impressions from a playtest that happened tonight. We ran a party of four. 4th level. 25 point buy. Our party consisted of a Brawler, a Skald, a Bloodrager, and a Hunter. Thoughts on the Skald.
-My wife, who ran the Skald has played a longstanding Bard and several barbarians and was really excited for this class.
-Her main comment was that she didn't feel she got enough Barbarian for the mix. It felt like she was playing a Bard. At one point, while inspiring rage, she dropped back and used her bow, because she was better at it, and it was the smarter tactical choice than mixing it up in melee, but she felt that the flavor of the character was such that she should want to stay in melee. Part of this may come to build choices, as she likely made this character with a Bard in mind, rather than a mix, but also because, other than the Rage song, she didn't have any abilities that really encouraged her to stay in melee, and lots of reasons to stay out (lower BAB, lower HP, lower damage output than our other characters, etc.).
-She felt that Scribe Scroll was tacked on and out of place for the character.
-One thing we found was that since unconscious characters automatically accept the Raging Song, it's possible for the Skald to bring back the dead, so to speak, which is actually pretty cool.
-She felt that Bardic Knowledge was closer to the flavor of the class, but was overall part of why she felt like she was playing a Bard. Similarly, looking ahead to Lore Master felt similarly.
-One issue we ran into was whether or not the Bloodrager could cast her spells while under the effects of the Raging Spell. We'd seen on the boards that the two currently don't stack. Thematically, it seemed that someone able to harness magical effects out of their blood and the power of their rage shouldn't be hindered by other forms of rage, but we were unsure.
-While the rest of us felt it was clear, she was unsure if she could cast her spells while performing a Raging Song, and if she cast said spells, if it would stop her Raging Song. She wanted that language more explicitly stated.
-Initially we chaffed a bit under the 30' range for the Raging Song, however she ultimately came to like it as it was the one incentive for closing in melee with a character that seemed thematically suited for the purpose.
-Looking ahead to the capstone ability, she felt that those abilities could have been gotten earlier and spread out among a few different levels. Her suggestion for a new capstone ability was to target a single enemy and to have the rage and fear build up so much inside them that they needed to roll a Fortitude save, or have their heads explode. That just sounded incredible BA, so I wanted to share that with you all.
-In addition to some of the things that have already been mentioned (weapon proficencies, etc.) suggestions on various abilities were thoughts like a Screaming Charge that could inspire others to gain bonus damage if they charged within the round. Or ways to add sonic damage to melee weapons. Another suggestion was to be able to give an ally the ability to make an immediate melee attack or charge on the Skald's turn. Ultimately, she wanted more reason to mix it up in melee, and more confidence in abilities that would allow her to do so competently.
-One issue we ran into was whether or not the Bloodrager could cast her spells while under the effects of the Raging Spell. We'd seen on the boards that the two currently don't stack. Thematically, it seemed that someone able to harness magical effects out of their blood and the power of their rage shouldn't be hindered by other forms of rage, but we were unsure.
Here us the answer:
While under the effects of skald rage, allies (other than the skald) cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
The question wasn't being asked about the Skald's ability to cast spells, but a Bloodrager, a completely different class that has the ability to cast under (blood)rage. RAW the answer is no. Whether that is intentional from the designers is unknown. If not, the wording would need to be cleared up a little on these abilities.
There seems to be very little interest in discussing the skald. That's either very bad or good.
Edit:
@Trogdar: That is VERY bad :(
I'm not even sure the Devs are that keen on this class. They haven't really been that Active in this thread.
To me the two biggest disappointments are the Skald and the Shaman, both flavor wise and their mechanics although the Shaman is a rather powerful class. Not to my surprise these two classes that have the least active posters.
And the most popular classes are not surprisingly Swashbuckler, Warpriest, Bloodrager, Arcanist and Brawler.
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There seems to be very little interest in discussing the skald. That's either very bad or good.
It is not good. I had high hopes for the Skald. I was looking forward to a more battle focused and less arcane version of the Bard. One that was more primal and savage than the seemingly coy and foppish Core bard.
This is not doing anything for me.
A lot of options have been tossed around in this thread for how to fix this class, but there hasn't really been any movement on it. This one needs a serious rewrite. As it stands, you need a really specific group for this class to work, and that also makes it much harder to playtest. If you toss this guy into the classic four-man (fighter wizard rogue cleric) as the fifth man, he is going to immediately be sniffed out as worse than the core bard in almost every capacity.
and it is bad for stealth.
Also very problematic that the ally can't stop the effect him/herself.
I sort of had hope for more performances and less spells: Full BAB and 4/9 casting where the spells where mostly for utility and more performance.
The spell list is also a bit strange. No bull's Strength, etc.
If they have some classes new hybrid classes that they haven’t published maybe they should pick one of them.
Spontaneous casting druid would be cool. To me a Shaman is a mash of Witch and Druid, but that train has left and won’t happen.
It is really sad our gaming group can’t playtest these new classes. I will give the Skald some thought I try to post some productive suggestions, but inspire courage is a must and I think more spells known (from other classes) or less spells and full BAB is probably the way to go AND more Barbarian and more performances and some new masterpieces.
I know it may not seem productive, but I agree with Atarlost and other posters. They may have to rebuild it from scratch.
There seems to be very little interest in discussing the skald. That's either very bad or good.It is not good. I had high hopes for the Skald. I was looking forward to a more battle focused and less arcane version of the Bard. One that was more primal and savage than the seemingly coy and foppish Core bard.
This is not doing anything for me.
A lot of options have been tossed around in this thread for how to fix this class, but there hasn't really been any movement on it. This one needs a serious rewrite. As it stands, you need a really specific group for this class to work, and that also makes it much harder to playtest. If you toss this guy into the classic four-man (fighter wizard rogue cleric) as the fifth man, he is going to immediately be sniffed out as worse than the core bard in almost every capacity.
It's difficult for the Devs to go in any direction because they want to keep the class as close to how they have it written as they possibly can. In the history of classes being published, it takes a change from editions of the game for a class itself to have any real change to some or all of its mechanics. The Paladin is a prime example of this. Even for classes in development, this same phenomenon rings true. I have posted a fairly elaborate method to make this hybrid into its own unique sense of class, and many others have as well; we even agree on some of the basic constructs (D10 HP, Medium Armor Proficiency, Skills, etc.) but the Devs have only made acknowledgements to adjusting the currently existing mechanics, not implementing or revising currently written mechanics entirely (as I have with several of the Skald's abilities).
I mean, sure, they also (obviously) have a lot on their plate with the other classes, but at the same time it's not like this thread isn't trying to make any strides here. The community has put in some decent feedback, but it takes the Devs to say "Okay, we'll do this," or "Alright, that will be revised in the published version," for this to get anywhere, and until they agree on anything (which chances are, won't come from us giving suggestions), the Skald will be stuck in this rut.
It's also the weekend. I have hopes this week will be a good one for the internal discussion about the Skald.
What if Spell Kenning simply let the Skald use a wider range of Scrolls? Such as divine if it appears on his spell list, or Arcane that appear on his spell list or the Wizard spell list. With penalties though.
But then again I don't really know how good that is.
I just...man I just don't know how to approach this class TBH.
Ragesong is the central feature of the skald. It sacrifices a LOT to get it... and it just doesn't work.
For ragesong to be as good as what you give up for it, it needs to at least be better than Inspire Courage. Or maybe just different, but still really good. Heck, if they just took the "allies cant concentrate" bit out of it, it would be fine.
Nobody would mind getting +con. Even the minuses to AC are manageable.
But to straight-up cut out the majority of classes from receiving any benefit? Uggh...
Its hard to get past that central feature to really look at everything else. Personally, I would rather see no spellcasting and a list of supernatural/spell-like abilities instead to keep up utility.
I just...man I just don't know how to approach this class TBH.
What do most artists do with their artwork when they can't progress any further with it?
If it's completed, then it is framed and put with his collection.
If it's a mess up, then it is tossed into the garbage can, a new piece of paper is grabbed, and a pencil is drawn with once more.
It's not like the classes can't be re-written. The issue is that we are under the impression that we have to keep the class features set in stone; that we can't add, subtract, divide, or multiply any features into or out of the class. Of course, it isn't our hand guiding the pencil, it's the Devs'.
Even if we think to make a line darker, or add more curve to a certain part, we aren't the hand. We're simply the brain trying to estimate the proportions of a drawing in our imagination. The Devs are the hand. They will create whatever it is they want, and whether the public will respect or view with anticipation the creation they are trying to make depends on their actions alone.
I have said my fair share of what can and should be done. My part of the brain has spoken. Whether the hand will respond or continue its course is what the test of time shows, and only that has the final say in this.
I just...man I just don't know how to approach this class TBH.What do most artists do with their artwork when they can't progress any further with it?
If it's completed, then it is framed and put with his collection.
If it's a mess up, then it is tossed into the garbage can, a new piece of paper is grabbed, and a pencil is drawn with once more.
It's not like the classes can't be re-written. The issue is that we are under the impression that we have to keep the class features set in stone; that we can't add, subtract, divide, or multiply any features into or out of the class. Of course, it isn't our hand guiding the pencil, it's the Devs'.
Even if we think to make a line darker, or add more curve to a certain part, we aren't the hand. We're simply the brain trying to estimate the proportions of a drawing in our imagination. The Devs are the hand. They will create whatever it is they want, and whether the public will respect or view with anticipation the creation they are trying to make depends on their actions alone.
I have said my fair share of what can and should be done. My part of the brain has spoken. Whether the hand will respond or continue its course is what the test of time shows, and only that has the final say in this.
Word.
As an artist... yes, I agree. The problem is that if something isn't salvageable, or not up to par. I throw it out, or I sand the paint off of the support and re-prime it with permalba. I never want bad works to see the light of day.
Heck I barely want good works to see the light of day.
Luckily... a rewrite here is not nearly as difficult as all that, but I do appreciate the poetic lilt of your analogy.
One of the reasons other classes have been having more activity is because there were flaws in the class that shook alot of playtesters. the Skalds problems are few in comparison to (ex.) Arcainist which required a large class abilities overhaul.
The skalds problems have already been stated and recognized by Players and developers so when playtest 2.0 comes out (hopefully) we will see alot more conversation on all the classes before they hit their final form.
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So just got done reading this a little while ago and I have to say really am digging on the skald.
My one question is is there any way to increase the Perform options for their bardic abilities? As it stands I don't know if I could convince them to allow a Skaldic wardancer but I would love to be able to build an orc war piper, trundling into battle with a set of bag pipes under his arm and playing the war tunes of his people.
I think the biggest problem with this class is that ragesong replaces bardic performance rather than supplementing it. Using selectable rage powers to alter your allies means that you and your party might very well be working at crosspurposes, tactically. Thematically, I think skalds can and should inspire heroism and greatness. A skald on a longboat shouldn't be bored, he should be singing songs of inspiration to his like-minded Viking friends. "Ragesong" is just a very limited concept. I don't think it can work.
I'd say bring back bardic music, and replace something with Song of Rage, making other replacements as desired. Give him martial weapon proficiencies, for goodness sake. No battle axe? No cutlass? No bill or longbow? Raging rapier is not better than raging axe. I just don't get what's going on with the limited weapon selection. Are you worried about stepping on the bard's toes? ... Someone already took away his skill points.
I just don't see a lot of potential in a class that encourages your party's magus and paladin to stop casting spells and start biting people and climbing trees.
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-My wife, who ran the Skald has played a longstanding Bard and several barbarians and was really excited for this class.
-Her main comment was that she didn't feel she got enough Barbarian for the mix. It felt like she was playing a Bard. At one point, while inspiring rage, she dropped back and used her bow, because she was better at it, and it was the smarter tactical choice than mixing it up in melee, but she felt that the flavor of the character was such that she should want to stay in melee. Part of this may come to build choices, as she likely made this character with a Bard in mind, rather than a mix, but also because, other than the Rage song, she didn't have any abilities that really encouraged her to stay in melee, and lots of reasons to stay out (lower BAB, lower HP, lower damage output than our other characters, etc.).
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I think the biggest problem with this class is that ragesong replaces bardic performance rather than supplementing it. Using selectable rage powers to alter your allies means that you and your party might very well be working at crosspurposes, tactically. Thematically, I think skalds can and should inspire heroism and greatness. A skald on a longboat shouldn't be bored, he should be singing songs of inspiration to his like-minded Viking friends. "Ragesong" is just a very limited concept. I don't think it can work.
I'd say bring back bardic music, and replace something with Song of Rage, making other replacements as desired. Give him martial weapon proficiencies, for goodness sake. No battle axe? No cutlass? No bill or longbow? Raging rapier is not better than raging axe. I just don't get what's going on with the limited weapon selection. Are you worried about stepping on the bard's toes? ... Someone already took away his skill points.
I just don't see a lot of potential in a class that encourages your party's magus and paladin to stop casting spells and start biting people and climbing trees.
+1
I want the Skald to succeed, but I observed many of the problems suggested in this thread in my playtest last night. Reposting some stuff from my playtest post.
The Skald felt like a worse Bard. The player summed up her thoughts at the end of the night as: "I didn't feel especially useful," looking at how half the party rejected her ragesong and at all its limitations.
If I wanted to play a Skald character, currently I would play a Bard and reflavor it, or look at the already-existing Skald archetype.
What does the Skald class bring to the table that the Bard doesn't? A more difficult to manage and less generally useful (partial-)party buff. Rage powers, which are good fun but you can only pass out 1 per song and not everyone's going to be taking the song anyway. Spell Kenning, which is fun but not a huge loss. And you lose Versatile Performance for all that.
That's a shame! I like the Skald and want the class to work.
The fix here (as folks have been suggesting) might be to move the Skald more in the direction of the Barbarian: boost the HD, give more barbarian-like weapon proficiencies, etc. And Raging Song needs some work to make it more generally useful. Don't know just what would do it (there have been some interesting suggestions here), but it does need some changing.
I do however like that it automatically affects unconscious allies, so you can keep them alive with more CON.This. Your buddy falls unconscious? Start your battle song and depending on his level and the severity he may by standing again.
I'm pretty sure that you can use Su and Ex abilities while raging, that would make a lot of class features still useable while the Skald sings his songs of violence and death...
As for the Str and Con bonus not staking with a Barbarians, that sucks but he still benefits. He gains all of the Rage Powers of the Skald which can potentially more than double his rage powers. That could give a Barbarian access to two separate Totem Rage Power lines, one from his own class feature and the other from the Skald.
When I see this only one thing comes to mind, you better hope that extra con keeps you conscious during the song or you're gonna be pretty upset when Mr. Skald runs out of rage song rounds or drops unconscious himself. Say goodbye to that nice 2hp/level buffer and hello to possible death.
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Do summoned creatures accept the ragesong?
It affects all allies, but offers them the choice. A summoned creature does what you want, only if you can talk to it, otherwise it merely takes it's best guess. So is the choice the players, the GM's, is it automatic?
I'd assume they do, but I can't find anything that proves it.
Interesting question. I see two related concerns:
(1) Does the Skald have to pick a specific language in which to ragesong? Imagine a scenario where the Skald speaks Languages A and B and has one ally who speaks Language A (but not Language B) and another ally who speaks Language B (but not Language A). If the Skald has to pick a language in which to rage-sing, she can only affect one of those allies per song.
(2) Entering and exiting ragesong's range. This question has been brought up before and Sean tagged it for discussion by the devs (today, I think). But it's worth pointing out that summoned creatures raise the concern too. To avoid the first concern, let's imagine a party in which every member speaks Celestial (perhaps because they have a tongues-cursed Oracle with whom they want to communicate in battle). Round 1, Skald begins ragesong [in Celestial]. Round 2, Skald begins summoning a monster. Round 3, Skald's Celestial Eagle (or whatever) pops into battle. Does the newly-arrived monster get a choice to accept or reject? Or is the only time you can get a ragesong is the round it starts up? (Analogy: party member who is 60 feet away when the Skald starts, and then moves within range. Of course, this but not the summoning case could be answered by removing the range limit.)
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A raging song is language-dependent with audible
components, but not visual components.
So yes, they need to understand the language to benefit from it.
Which is a bit weird, since even though I can't understand any lyrics of heavy metal, I'm pretty sure I can tell that they're angry.
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A raging song is language-dependent with audible
components, but not visual components.So yes, they need to understand the language to benefit from it.
Which is a bit weird, since even though I can't understand any lyrics of heavy metal, I'm pretty sure I can tell that they're angry.
Sure it sounds like angry metal music, though I am guessing you need to understand what he is singing to truly feel how metal it is.
I currently have been playtesting a Skald and it feels like I need to have the Flagbearer feat and the spell Moment of Greatness just to make up for having Raging Song as the only song this class knows until they learn Dirge of Doom way later.
This class defiantly could use the Berserkergang song from the Savage Skald archetype and other songs.
Also it feels slightly contradictory. Sure Skald, go sing a song about being a raging beserker, whats that though you only got 3/4 BAB? Guess you better stay back and let the real men handle this.
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A raging song is language-dependent with audible
components, but not visual components.So yes, they need to understand the language to benefit from it.
Which is a bit weird, since even though I can't understand any lyrics of heavy metal, I'm pretty sure I can tell that they're angry.
Yes, I recognize that. The question is whether "language-dependent" means you need to pick one particular language to sing in at the start of the ragesong, with the result that you'd lock out allies who don't speak that language (but whose language you speak and *could* have ragesong'd in), or whether, alternatively, you can 'alternate verses' (or whatever fluff you like) so as to get everyone whose language you speak in on the ragesong.
I guess this applies to Inspire Courage using audible components just as much.
I assume the answer is that you do need to pick a specific language. But it's worth pointing that out as another tough limitation that ragesong has to deal with.
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I like the idea of a Skald singing in a mixture of Japanese and Engrish, in order to affect all of his companions.
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Moved this from a thread that was closed. Apparently, they want all discussions to happen within the same thread.
Anybody else feel that skalds should lose all spellcasting in favor of something else?
Maybe they can get more bardic abilities. I think spellcasting is just all wrong for Viking skalds.
I understand that skalds in some Viking sagas had some type of magic, but it was not like the typical bard spell list. Sorcery and witchcraft, or sejdr, were considered evil and cowardly.
The magic they had were more like supernatural abilities contained within songs.
Trickery, illusion, and charm spells do not fit the flavor.
You can keep the kennings idea, but make it part of their bardic performance.
Like the Assassin prestige class, this class is just better without spells.
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Ok I'm going to take a run at this.
Yeah, I'm with you, Glutton.
I rather like some spell casting abilities, but I wouldn’t mind 4/9 casting keeping 3/4 BAB and getting more performance.
Problem with 4/9 casting is that the Devs probably have to create a new spell list much like the Magus or Inquisitor.
One thing that could work is keeping 6/9 casting but giving the Skald Diminished Spell casting (just like the Crusader Cleric archetype) and focus more on performance.
I really think this class would be cool if it could perform Inspire Courage and Raging Song at the same time and the ally could choose which performance it wanted.
AC will be a problem.
I’m not sure Raging Song is all bad. The problem is rather the lack of Inspire Courage. Being able to do both would add a lot of versatility.
I don’t think that 3/4 BAB is necessarily a bad thing, but it does make things problematic when picking feats. Especially if you play a Skald with Power attack and a feat with PA as a prereq, say PA and Cleave or PA and FF or PA and Improved sunder. This is even more noticeable when you play a human. Grating it a bonus feat or bonus feats would fix that problem.
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I think the skald should rage, and everyone else should be inspired by his ragyness.
diminished casting is a must.
medium Armour
D10 hit die
martial weapons
4+int skills
that is all... :P
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I think the skald should rage, and everyone else should be inspired by his ragyness.
diminished casting is a must.
medium Armour
D10 hit die
martial weapons
4+int skills
that is all... :P
Yep.
Rage + Inspire courage would then = Rage + Inspire courage.pretty sound if you ask me.
His performance does not grant him rage.
His Rage is a performance.
Edit:
"the skald should rage, and everyone else should be inspired by his ragyness." isn't bad. Kind of cool.
The more I think about it, diminished casting is a must.
This way the casting is nerfed but the Devs don't have to create a 4/9 spell list.
D10 + 3/4 bab would be cool.
medium Armor is a must. And martial weapons is probably a must.
I rather let it have 6+int, but 4+int and give it one versatile performance “light” or something similar. This is going to be more MAD than the bard so 6+int isn’t overkill, but I agree that it isn’t a must.
Drop scribe Scroll and grant it a bunus feat. Arcane strike or tougness.
Drop Well versed too. A circumstantial and weak ability. Grant it Power attack or Combat casting instead.
I also agree with SKR, they should also make spell kenning easier and simpler to use.
Edit 2:
Heck, give it 4+ int mod skills and drop Well Versed and give it versatile performance at level 2 (not level 6, 10, 14, etc. Just at level 2). You can rename versatile performance if it doesn't sound cool enough.
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They should/could rename Raging Song and call it Battle Cry, Battle Poetry or Battle Shout or something. The Battle Cry could affect allies differently depending on their own mood and focus (how they experience the battle Poetry). Some enter a rage, some get focused and concentrated.
I really love the idea of granting different bonuses to different allies. A sorcerer could get a +1 to fortitude saves and +1 to concentration check and archer gets Inspire Courage and a fighter gets raged. That be versatile.
At higher level spell casters may get other bonuses such as a bonus on caster level to overcome SR AND a bonus to concentration checks.
A Viking should have swim as a class skill.
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You know: I really do love raging and giving out rage powers. I just really wish that the bonuses were more fungible.