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To people saying the druid spell list would be better, I want to mention several specific spells:
Plane Shift
(Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding
Divination
Commune
Contact Other PlaneThese are cleric spells, and notably are not druid spells. They feel like perhaps the 'most shaman' spells out of either spell list to me, and it would be criminal to have the class without them. I wouldn't mind the druid spell list with these (maybe a couple others) glued on, but then we're hardly better than a new spell list.
If we aren't making something new, I believe it has to be Cleric.
With the Exception of Planar Binding/Ally (which is a loss, admittedly) and Commune (which specifically lets you talk to a diety, and therefore doesn't really fit the Shaman), all of these spells are available to the Witch.
I'm still thinking they really dropped the ball by not using the Witch list. (After all, isn't this basically the PC version of the Adept class? Just look at the Adept spell list for an idea of what I think would be appropriate - Witch comes closest to matching that.)
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I can see your points. I have a thing for other planes that might be causing some bias here, and you are probably correct in saying the spirits they commune with are not particularly planar in origin. If this is the interpretation (which it probably is for many of them), then the druid spell list indeed might be more appropriate.
That said, when I first heard about the playtest, I was really hoping for a somewhat planar-related class, because the other planes are a great plot device and setting that I feel Pathfinder should have, or should now, expanded upon more. I can see the Shaman being fluffed as either planar or non-planar, and guess I'll have to wait for the full release to see if there's an archtype(of any class) that really satiates my 'planar class' urge.
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Coridan's thoughts on Shaman:
I like it conceptually but want some mechanical changes to bring it more in line with the flavor.
Familiar should be a bonded item. Shaman sticks are a staple.
Would like patrons to be invokved somehow.
Druid or Witch spell list. Not cleric.
Maybe summon nature ally as an ability like Summon Monster for Summoners?
Edit: Forgot to add, this class should cast spells like the Arcanist. It is a good system and we should get a divine caster who does it too.
Did you actually try to build one? It was my goal to make a primary caster, be able to use my main class abilities ok, and not immediately die when I got into range to use my abilities. Those seem like fairly normal desires, and I felt conflicted just making that happen.One thing to keep in mind is that the game was balanced around something close to a 15 Point Buy. Yes. Even full casters were using that base point buy. If you're noticing your spells not sticking just because you need a 12 Charisma and can't start with 20 in your main casting stat...that's sort of what the game assumes.But... I need a good strength to hit stuff and make it hurt, a good con to survive, a good dex because dex to everything amirite bro?, a good wisdom because that's what my spells do, and an okay charisma because my everything wants me to have at least an okay charisma, and I can't dump intellect without drooling so... I feel so conflicted!
I did actually. Like with cleric I have trouble trying to place my stuff because 5 starts are hard to juggle. For example 14/12/12/10/14/11 is 15 points. Never been a big fan of dual casting stats, and putting it on someone who may be smashing things up front makes it even more difficult. Using 20 point buy its a little bit easier, extra point buy tends to go towards dumped stats in my experience, which is nice.
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Please don't change anything this class is perfect.
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Count me as a proponent of giving the shaman druid spellcasting.
It would make it very interesting. You would essentially have a character who has the druid spell list but none of the druid class abilities. Would mean that the shaman can take a more offensive roll than with the cleric spell list (with stuff like produce flame, flaming sphere, sheet lightning, call lightning, and flame strike as 4 instead of 5), which feels very shaman-esque to me. It would also be a way to channel and have the druid spell list, which seems very interesting indeed!
Hmm, Pirate Rob pointed out a potentially...deadly combination of powers. A Samsaran Wave Shaman could use Beckoning Chill, Crashing Waves, and Snowball to have a very potent single target shutdown. Beckoning chill isn't even needed, really, but why not? It's the fault of Snowball, but dang is that not a scary concept.
If the spell list were to be druid, you could do that with any race. Yikes.
And speaking of the druid spell list, I think that would make the concerns of MAD a bit more real. Druids are fairly offensively oriented it would seem, so saves are more important. I would also hope that unlike other classes, they would get some grafted on spells. There are a few Cleric spells that would really fit the Shaman that aren't available to Druids. Spiritual Weapon for one. Causing lingering spirits to pick up a weapon and fight for you? (well, roughly speaking :)) Yea, that fits.
Raise Dead? yes. yes, and yes.
And speaking of the druid spell list, I think that would make the concerns of MAD a bit more real. Druids are fairly offensively oriented it would seem, so saves are more important. I would also hope that unlike other classes, they would get some grafted on spells. There are a few Cleric spells that would really fit the Shaman that aren't available to Druids. Spiritual Weapon for one. Causing lingering spirits to pick up a weapon and fight for you? (well, roughly speaking :)) Yea, that fits.
Raise Dead? yes. yes, and yes.
I have to disagree with regards to the Druid list making them more MAD. The Druid is offensive spell-wise, compared to other casters, but I doubt they would get into the thick of a fight nearly as often if they didn't have wild shape. The more offensive Druid list would allow shamans to be a damage oriented divine caster, which could be a nice change of pace.
Also, in regards to the thematically-appropriate Cleric spells, they could be bonus spells for certain Spirirts. Or, although I'm aware paizo doesn't really want to do this, a Shaman spell list seems appropriate, as the Shaman really does seem to be in between Cleric and Druid. Neither list really fits the Shaman completely, so, if any new class gets its own list, I think the Shaman should be the one to do so. If they weren't to make the new list though, Druid really seems to be more appropriate, as it's nature oriented, rather than religiously oriented.Edit: I forgot to include my actual impression of the class. I think, other than the spell list, Paizo knocked it out of the park. Cool class, nice flavor, feels unique. At least on par with the APG classes, if not better. Good Job!
Also on spell casting:
The lore spirit really needs something that would limit a person using it as their wild spirit from switching out their spells everyday.
I could get behind using the Druid list. Personally I think the witch list would be more appropriate.
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Overall I enjoy the class and can't wait to try it out. However there are a few things I would like to see added.
1.) More options for spirits (both mechanically and fluff wise).
2.) Better variation for hexes, which will probably come out with the book. Honestly though I would like to see more buff/debuff options for the shaman.
3.) A unique spell list or barring this I would set the spell list as being Witch based with some additional spells added from the cleric list.
Other than that it looks good so far.
And speaking of the druid spell list, I think that would make the concerns of MAD a bit more real. Druids are fairly offensively oriented it would seem, so saves are more important. I would also hope that unlike other classes, they would get some grafted on spells. There are a few Cleric spells that would really fit the Shaman that aren't available to Druids. Spiritual Weapon for one. Causing lingering spirits to pick up a weapon and fight for you? (well, roughly speaking :)) Yea, that fits.
Raise Dead? yes. yes, and yes.
I have to disagree with regards to the Druid list making them more MAD. The Druid is offensive spell-wise, compared to other casters, but I doubt they would get into the thick of a fight nearly as often if they didn't have wild shape. The more offensive Druid list would allow shamans to be a damage oriented divine caster, which could be a nice change of pace.
Sorry, I didn't fully clarify what I meant. I meant the Druid spell list is more offensively oriented. Even a non-wildshaping druid can be pretty offensive (hah!), just using spells. Since those spells usually deal with saving throws, the need for some Charisma may --
Actually, nah. Cleric does fine with Channel Energy, which is based on Charisma.
Actually, nah. Cleric does fine with Channel Energy, which is based on Charisma.
It's also 3 + Charisma for a cleric. Right now for Life Shaman, it's 1 + Charisma, even though it's not a charisma class like Life Oracle.
Most of the charisma based abilities use it for uses-per-day and are the abilities everyone of that spirit gets (much like all clerics get channel energy). I wasn't referring to Channel Energy of the Life Oracle specifically. I'm guessing the 1+mCha is because you'll eventually get two such abilities, so having the Shaman get 3+mCha uses and another ability is a bit much compared to the cleric.
I have to say, I really like the idea of this class, that why I want this one to be awesome :)
Let's start with the class features:
- Spell-list: Give them a tailored Spell-list which is arranged around spirit, nature and some holy spells.
- Familiar: Nice Idea, have to see how this works out
- Spirit Magic: To get this right, this means you can cast one of your spirit spells (per spell level) for free?
Sounds nice, it's similar to the houserule where clerics can cast their domain spells spontaneously instead of any prepared spell of the same level.
- Spirit: Why using the Oracle Mystery Names if you redesign them anyway? Also I would rename the "Spirit" to something like "Totem" to keep the tribal origin of the class
- Hex: Very nice, I already liked them at the witch and connect them to the choosen Spirit/totem is a nice idea. But also I would rename them to give the class a unique flair
I didn't had time to check the Spirits yet, but feedback will follow :)
Maybe I don't have enough experience with non-wild shape Druids (or any full caster, for that matter. I play martials mainly) but I don't see why an offensive spell list would make them more MAD. They can sit in the back and blast things, just like a wizard.
Well, I disagree with my own statement now. But the cleric spell list is less save based, so high DCs aren't as important. That's kind of what I was going for :)
Ah, ok then. I think the best option would be to just give them their own list, so they can have all the thematically appropriate spells, especially since there doesn't seem to be a consensus as to what list works best. Cleric, Druid, and Witch have all come up several times now, so I'm inclined to believe one of the existing spell lists simply won't cut it. Or maybe give them more spells from their Spirits, so that anyone can make their version of a shaman.
Here's the key thing that I think would really help the class at large. A lot of people are wanting either the Druid spell list or Witch spell list. That's fine and I can get behind it, I think giving them more spirits bound at a time would let you fill in the gaps. Like someone up thread mentioned certain things like Commune and Planar Ally, let the Spirits give access to those spells. We don't need a fully customized list if we're making the class revolve more around their Spirits, they can fill in the gaps of what isn't on whichever list they go with.
I also see where the MAD issue can arise I think a little stream lining of the class could be a good idea. I mean the Witch is Intelligence based and the Oracle is Charisma. Frankly I think Charisma should have been the defining stat only because using your force of personality to bind Spirits to your will is kinda thematic. Intelligence could work as you've learned about the spirits and how to bind them to service, you could flavor unlocking new Wandering Spirit options as having discovered/researched them to learn how to use them. Though I'm on the fence about it Wisdom works too as they grant you their Wisdom, but at that point having your other class features run hither thither and yon off other stats is a pain when you're a primary caster.
You could also argue that the cleric spell list could be an archetype and the druid spell list be the standard.
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Was there ever an official ruling on how double ability score stacking works when one ability score is replacing another in a specific calculation? I know there was hot debate about Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall.
If this was not clarified to not working, dipping a level of monk on a nature shaman with Nature's Whispers could be some crazy healer AC.
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Was there ever an official ruling on how double ability score stacking works when one ability score is replacing another in a specific calculation? I know there was hot debate about Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall.
If this was not clarified to not working, dipping a level of monk on a nature shaman with Nature's Whispers could be some crazy healer AC.
Nope; it's not a typed bonus. It stacks with all other modifiers, but can't stack with itself.
Unfortunately my game has been delayed, so my play-testing experience has yet to happen. Fortunately or Unfortunately I'll also be playing a Mythic Hierophant Shaman, which will definitely be a different experience.
Overall, I feel like the Shaman provides a character with wonderful flexibility and versatility who could add a "healer" (condition removal/problem solver) role to the party, but with flavorful choices that open up a new ways to contribute to the party that a cleric or oracle cannot provide.
Being a healer who can have some versatile choices of other ways to contribute is exactly the role I love playing in a group. My concern is regarding the push to change their spells to the Druid's list instead of the Cleric's.
By using the Druid's list, I feel, you remove the ability to provide the "healer" role. The Druid's progression of problem solving spells tends to lag behind the Cleric's and this would cause problems for someone, like me, who wants to use the Shaman as a "healer".
I really appreciate the idea that an Archetype could allow the Shaman to draw off of the Druid list, as the idea of a nature Shaman is likely where many people find inspiration for a Shaman concept. However, I currently greatly appreciate that a Shaman could be a mysterious follower of the Heavens or driven by a spirit of battle instead of thematically being too closely aligned with a Druid.
I feel the kit of magical nature caster with animal friend is filled out quite well through the Druid already and that allowing the Shaman to draw from the Cleric list allows for a greater diversity of character concepts to be created.
In trying to build a shaman for my play test I am running into a few issues. Some of them have been mentioned.
The first is there are not enough hexes, for something like extra hex feat. Primarily because your wandering spirit can change so it feels like the extra hex feat must be on your base spirit. Or you have to re pick every time you change your wandering spirit.
So maybe some of the more generic witch hexes or revelation powers would be available to all shamans either all the time or when they take the extra hex feat.
Healing hex, Flying hex, Evil Eye, Misfortune, Fortune (Not Slumber and not Cackle). I'm sure there are more in other books. I also think it may help it feel more witchy.
I really wish the animal companion/familiar ability of the nature shaman was more accessible because I think it is a really cool thing. Such as a Greater hex... but we don't have any greater hexes for this class. I just don't think it should be exclusive to nature.
I think the witch spell list seems a tich more appropriate than cleric but it should still be divine. If the shaman needs to heal more often it can take life as a wandering spirit.
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Nope; it's not a typed bonus. It stacks with all other modifiers, but can't stack with itself.Was there ever an official ruling on how double ability score stacking works when one ability score is replacing another in a specific calculation? I know there was hot debate about Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall.
If this was not clarified to not working, dipping a level of monk on a nature shaman with Nature's Whispers could be some crazy healer AC.
Thanks Walter.
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Thanks Walter.Nope; it's not a typed bonus. It stacks with all other modifiers, but can't stack with itself.Was there ever an official ruling on how double ability score stacking works when one ability score is replacing another in a specific calculation? I know there was hot debate about Agile Maneuvers/Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall.
If this was not clarified to not working, dipping a level of monk on a nature shaman with Nature's Whispers could be some crazy healer AC.
No problem -- I am an attribute stacking aficionado. I love using one ability for multiple things, so I try to stay up to speed on the legalities.
I'm loving the shaman so far... I can use Wisdom for will saves, perception/sense motive, spells, AC, and knowledge checks. That's pretty silly.
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Does healing spirit automatically maximize all your healing spells, or do you have to be of a caster level high enough that you could maximize it through the feat?
Also, being a WIS based caster, shouldn't the abilities be 3+WIS instead of 3+CHA like a cleric rather than like an oracle? Yes I know its an oracle blend, but casting with WIS and special abilitying with CHA is out of the normal convention.
@Druid Spell List
I'm not sure I like the idea of the druid spell list, mainly for some of the big reasons pointed out above: it's mostly focused on animals, and it's far more offensively powered. For such a MAD class, having more defensive spells (from the oracle/cleric list) is nice.
I feel like giving it the druid spell list would negate most of its melee potential as a caster.
But I do support the idea of an archetype that got the witch or druid spell list instead.
I was a little disappointed in the inclusion of a familiar, but then I don't actually like familiars and usually look for a way to sub them out of my build....I would have preferred something more along the lines of an incorporeal spirit that can manifest from time to time and hamper their foes or some such.
I hope they come up with some spirits that are less focused on re-hashing Oracle mysteries....and flesh out Witch patrons as an option.
But beyond that, I'm thinking this is currently my favorite class of the bunch.
I'm looking foreword to seeing how all these classes evolve between now and the finale release ;)
Does healing spirit automatically maximize all your healing spells, or do you have to be of a caster level high enough that you could maximize it through the feat?
Also, being a WIS based caster, shouldn't the abilities be 3+WIS instead of 3+CHA like a cleric rather than like an oracle? Yes I know its an oracle blend, but casting with WIS and special abilitying with CHA is out of the normal convention.
Clerics use Wis for casting and Cha for channeling.
@Druid Spell List
I'm not sure I like the idea of the druid spell list, mainly for some of the big reasons pointed out above: it's mostly focused on animals, and it's far more offensively powered. For such a MAD class, having more defensive spells (from the oracle/cleric list) is nice.
I feel like giving it the druid spell list would negate most of its melee potential as a caster.
But I do support the idea of an archetype that got the witch or druid spell list instead.
An hybrid spell list for an hybrid class?
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Does healing spirit automatically maximize all your healing spells, or do you have to be of a caster level high enough that you could maximize it through the feat?
Also, being a WIS based caster, shouldn't the abilities be 3+WIS instead of 3+CHA like a cleric rather than like an oracle? Yes I know its an oracle blend, but casting with WIS and special abilitying with CHA is out of the normal convention.
Clerics use Wis for casting and Cha for channeling.
Yeah, but only Cha for channeling for Clerics. Approximately half the Shaman features are Cha bound.
Honestly, the only stat you can safely have low as a Shaman is Int if you're going to expect combat of any type.
Wait, which half?
Wait, which half?
The hex half if I had to guess.
Actually, I may have been overly critical of the MAD aspect before. I have been playing around with this idea a little more and I think I have got this to a respectable primary caster, which was always my goal. Some friends and I have been talking about starting a home game for a while, I am going to throw this in as an NPC soon and will post more thoughts after.
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I think the spell list should be a choice at first level, a Nature Shaman could favor the Druid list, while a Spirit Shaman favours the cleric list. Once chosen this choice can not be changed.
It's a unique twist, but considering the flavour of the class I think could open up a lot of creative space for players and GMs alike.
I'm so disappointed in this class. It was the one I was looking forward to most of all when I heard about it. I really like the concept of Hexes (I miss Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, and Binders). I prefer spontaneous magic and the Oracle was a godsend to me as far as playing divine characters was concerned.
Maybe it was just a problem of expectations. I was expecting, for whatever reason, a spontaneous caster with the druid spell list and unlimited use supernatural powers as the primary focus (much like hexes and the witch).
What I got was a prepared, curseless Oracle that gets a second Mystery you can change daily. I mean, those are barely hexes--they're basically just revelations. Boo. Uninterested.
It's a solid class, mechanically, mind you, and I don't object to it existing. It's just so far removed from what I wanted and thought I was getting, I can't help but be disappointed.
We didn't need another class with the cleric list. We did need a spontaneous caster with the druid list and a divine hex user. Why did we get the unsuccessfully Magusized Cleric (Warpriest) and unsuccessfully Inquistorized Druid (Hunter) without getting the spontaneous Druid?
Bone Ward (Su): A shaman can touch a willing creature
(including herself ) to grant a bone ward. The warded
creature becomes encircled by a group of f lying bones
that grant a +2 def lection bonus for a number of rounds
equal to the shaman’s class level. At 8th level, the ward
increases to +3 lasts for 1 minute and at 16th level the
bonus increases to +4 and lasts for 1 hour. Once the ward
ends, a creature cannot be the target of the hex again for
1 day.
Has anyone else noticed that at 8th level bone ward lasts a whopping 2 additional rounds and then jumps to 16 hours? Is that supposed to be 1 minute/level?
Bone Ward (Su): A shaman can touch a willing creature
(including herself ) to grant a bone ward. The warded
creature becomes encircled by a group of f lying bones
that grant a +2 def lection bonus for a number of rounds
equal to the shaman’s class level. At 8th level, the ward
increases to +3 lasts for 1 minute and at 16th level the
bonus increases to +4 and lasts for 1 hour. Once the ward
ends, a creature cannot be the target of the hex again for
1 day.Has anyone else noticed that at 8th level bone ward lasts a whopping 2 additional rounds and then jumps to 16 hours? Is that supposed to be 1 minute/level?
As read atm, it jumps to one minute, then to one hour. The /level gig ends at 8th, and if the rounds/level continued it would last longer from 11-15 without the scaling. I've never been a big fan of that kind of scaling though, at first level its pretty bleh, then around 8th it becomes something entirely different but won't stack with a lot of other bonuses to AC like shield of faith, then at sixteenth it can last a whole dungeon. Oddly enough, I think its better than the witch's ward hex.
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I found this class one of the more interesting of the group. Myself, I am fine with the familiar - the unique additions that each spirit gives you is a nice touch. However, I wouldn't mine a choice between a totem and a familiar (much like a wizard's arcane bond).
Spirit Magic seems misleading to me - is it any spell off the main list, or just the spirit list?
I'm not really sure about wandering spirit/hex - maybe too mix n' match/more bookkeeping? Maybe take the concept of spirit magic, where you can choose a spirit ability for an 'x' amount per day?
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ok my 2 cents on the shaman after 1st play.
1-- thier spells should be more of mix, maybe take spells from the bard list. or write up thier own list of spells pulled from divine and arcane.
2-- nature shamans should get animal companion familiars at maybe lvl 7 not 15. 15 is so high that its a worthless ability.
3-- use magic device shoudl be a class skill for them.its a class skill for the witch, and kinda vital part of an arcane style character, and the shaman is suppose to be both.
i only played 1 scenario so those are just my initial thoughts.
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My review:
Shaman: D Interesting mix of both prepared and spontaneous spellcasting. Much more interesting than the Arcanist. Unfortunately, the spontaneous part has a very restricted spell list - just two choices per spell level, and you have very limited freedom in picking. If you want enlarge person and color spray available at 1st level, then you're stuck with fog cloud and hypnotism at second, whether you want them or not. And your hexes will be limited by your spell selection (or vice versa, if you're building yourself around a certain hex).
A lot of the hexes don't make any sense, since they just took revelations and rewrote them as hexes. (How is gaining weapon specialization and greater weapon focus a hex?) This destroys rules synergy with existing source material - you can't take Extra Revelations to gain Nature's Whispers, for example. But you can take Extra Hex, which sort of breaks the class since it gets hexes/revelations at half the rate of either Oracle or Witch.
Since they don't share a hex list with the Witches, it's almost like the Shaman is just a wisdom Oracle, with a variant revelations list. But they're hexes. Or Spirit abilities. Not revelations.
I can see this being pretty complex to play in practice due to the Wandering Spirit feature. Having to go through the entire class description at the start of every day to cherry pick the best special abilities, hexes and spell lists seems like it could eat up a lot of table time. I like the flexibility it gives, but it seems like it could be awkward in practice.
Overall, I can see it being very powerful. I gave it a D for class design and awkwardness, not because it will suck to play. Doing things like opening up Nature's Whispers (already the most powerful Oracle Revelation) to Wisdom based people on top of Charisma based people will allow all sorts of powergamish builds to be built. But it's a very weirdly worded, awkwardly constructed class as it is right now.
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I dont think the druid list would help the shaman, while flavor wise its great it is also full of useless stuff and useless wildshape buffs. This guy deserves his own list like the witch.
I like the concept behind the shaman's mechanic but being a WIS caster is not doing him any favors. If his primary stat as a divine character can not be INT and they need a second stat for casting durations use INT for that and free CHA to be a possible dump.
I am trying hard to like this guy but after spending a couple of days playing around with him I could not make a single shaman concept that was better or as good as the same said concept build as an oracle or cleric. Some of the spirits are lackluster to say the least as are a lot of hexes. By the way, they should probably be renamed, they are more akin to revelations, calling them hexes just makes thinks more confusing.
Right now my perception is that the shaman is shaping up to be the "rogue" of the divine full casters.