If it he's enough feats why not just get rid of martial maneuvers for a different ability entirely?actually, i think they maybe should... or at least change it significantly. i actually had an idea for one possible way to (maybe) address it- i had posted it in a separate thread but the devs closed the thread and asked that we keep that sort of thing in these threads (so as to avoid overwhelming numbers of parallel threads).
so, for any interested, here's one possible way to tone down martial maneuvers a bit and make it (infinitely easier for GMs to adjudicate):
** spoiler omitted **...
Just bravo. I really like this. But I would make it so some of the feats that are common place to always have, such as power attack, not be included. There are some small gripes with the feast selection but overall I REALLY like that idea.
Edit: although I still don't agree that "toning down" is what that ability needs
Here's my shot at a Brawler build, using 20 point buy and no equipment.
The build makes heavy use of Dragon Style, Enforcer and non lethal damage.
Dragon style, combined with good BAB, keeps my DPS from dropping every time I need to reposition or approach my target. That adds flexibility and mobility to my tactics.
Enforcer gives me a cheap, easy to use and hella effective debuff. A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Essentially, against that opponent, my AC goes up by 2.
To use Enforcer, I must deal nonlethal damage on at least one attack. When an enemies current hit points equal the nonlethal damage I dealt to trigger Enforcer, he's now Staggered. Granted, he'd most likely be dead if I'd dealt lethal damage, but hey . . . staggered ain't bad. Staggered AND shaken? Gravy.
Brawler Build
Human Brawler 5
Str 18
Con 14
Dex 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
Traits
World Traveler: Diplomacy as a Class Skill and +1 Trait Bonus.
Reactionary: +2 Initiative.
Skills (+1 Human, Favored Class +1)
Acrobatics +10 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Dex +2.)
Climb +11 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Str +3.)
Diplomacy +9 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Trait +1)
Intimidate +11 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Str +3.)
Perception +8 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3)
Sense Motive +8 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3)
Feats
Lvl 1 Intimidating Prowess, Enforcer.
Lvl 2 Power Attack
Lvl 3 Dragon Style
Lvl 4
Lvl 5 Bonus Feat
Here's my shot at a Brawler build, using 20 point buy and no equipment.
The build makes heavy use of Dragon Style, Enforcer and non lethal damage.
Dragon style, combined with good BAB, keeps my DPS from dropping every time I need to reposition or approach my target. That adds flexibility and mobility to my tactics.
Enforcer gives me a cheap, easy to use and hella effective debuff. A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Essentially, against that opponent, my AC goes up by 2.
To use Enforcer, I must deal nonlethal damage on at least one attack. When an enemies current hit points equal the nonlethal damage I dealt to trigger Enforcer, he's now Staggered. Granted, he'd most likely be dead if I'd dealt lethal damage, but hey . . . staggered ain't bad. Staggered AND shaken? Gravy.
Brawler Build
Human Brawler 5
Str 18
Con 14
Dex 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10Traits
World Traveler: Diplomacy as a Class Skill and +1 Trait Bonus.
Reactionary: +2 Initiative.Skills (+1 Human, Favored Class +1)
Acrobatics +10 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Dex +2.)
Climb +11 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Str +3.)
Diplomacy +9 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Trait +1)
Intimidate +11 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3, Str +3.)
Perception +8 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3)
Sense Motive +8 (Rank +5, Class Skill +3)Feats
Lvl 1 Intimidating Prowess, Enforcer.
Lvl 2 Power Attack
Lvl 3 Dragon Style
Lvl 4
Lvl 5 Bonus Feat
I like the bouncer at the tavern feel.
@nate. I also recommend adding an improvised stance to that. Catch off guard, throw anything, and improvised weapon mastery.
@nate. I also recommend adding an improvised stance to that. Catch off guard, throw anything, and improvised weapon mastery.
great idea. one of the things that i like about this system is that its super easy to introduce a new stance (like you just did). that way in future supplements anytime there's a brawler section (like for a new archetype or whatever) you can toss a new stance or two if needed- either because its thematic and just for that archetype (a dwarf racial archetype with a stance that grants that goblin/orc/giant clever feats?), or because the supplement also introduces new feats that would make for a good stance.
the idea got pretty a positive response on the other thread, i'm curious what others here might think...
edit: although i definitely do not want to derail discussion of the class as is (which is why i originally put it in a separate thread).
Thanks for the additional character build and playtest feedback!
Dagger can be eliminated from the list of weapon proficiencies as redundant. It is a simple weapon.
The AC Bonus Paragraph:
"These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks." can be deleted as redundant. The bonus is listed as a dodge bonus, and dodge bonuses apply to touch attacks.
Dagger can be eliminated from the list of weapon proficiencies as redundant. It is a simple weapon.
The AC Bonus Paragraph:
"These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks." can be deleted as redundant. The bonus is listed as a dodge bonus, and dodge bonuses apply to touch attacks.
That's true considering the dagger isn't even being called out as flurryable.
The AC Bonus Paragraph:
"These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks." can be deleted as redundant. The bonus is listed as a dodge bonus, and dodge bonuses apply to touch attacks.
FYI, it's the same text from the monk class. Sometimes we're really redundant in including language. :p
Sometimes that makes sense: A new player, reading the monk section, doesn't know that Dodge bonuses are special yet.
It's only redundant if you already know.
Sometimes that makes sense: A new player, reading the monk section, doesn't know that Dodge bonuses are special yet.
It's only redundant if you already know.
In the monk's description the explanation is necessary, as the type of bonus isn't explained. It's an untyped bonus that people (or I at least) refer to as the "monk" bonus AC; an untyped bonus to AC needs to be explained as it may or may not also apply to touch or flat AC.
In the brawler's case explanation of the dodge AC is redundant (but doesn't hurt).
Yes this AC bonus doesn't seem to apply when the Brawler is flat-footed. Which makes it even worse.
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So, I've gotta ask - is there a reason for the defined list of 'limbs' used for an unarmed strike? I mean, Monk has it too, but...it was kinda silly then, and it's really silly now. A trained unarmed combatant will hit you with any and every part of their body and it's going to hurt like dickens/break limbs like balsa wood/kill you with death. It's not going to affect balance (on Monk or Brawler), it isn't going to break verisimilitude, and it's certainly not going to fail to model real-world fighting techniques insofar as being worse at that than Pathfinder in general already is. What's the deal?
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So, I've gotta ask - is there a reason for the defined list of 'limbs' used for an unarmed strike? I mean, Monk has it too, but...it was kinda silly then, and it's really silly now. A trained unarmed combatant will hit you with any and every part of their body and it's going to hurt like dickens/break limbs like balsa wood/kill you with death. It's not going to affect balance (on Monk or Brawler), it isn't going to break verisimilitude, and it's certainly not going to fail to model real-world fighting techniques insofar as being worse at that than Pathfinder in general already is. What's the deal?
A trained unarmed combatant can beat people to death with their buttcheeks?
Would that classify as a pain in the rear?
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actually a trained unarmed combatant isn't going to really hit you with any part of his body, hitting you with his finger won't hurt you more than it will hurt himself, like wise attacking you with his ear is silly....
Unarmed fighters fight with hard solid points of their body, striking with say your radial bone is a silly thing to do.
I know this might be silly, but one thing that might be interesting is if you can incoporate a gladiator type archetype, and also one that specializies in brass knuckles.... Or a trait/feat etc that works well with them.
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actually a trained unarmed combatant isn't going to really hit you with any part of his body, hitting you with his finger won't hurt you more than it will hurt himself, like wise attacking you with his ear is silly....
First: savor that you have not yet experienced being poked in the eye during a fight. It is a horrible thing to have happen to you in the middle of a knock-down-drag-out brawl.
Second: some campaigns might find that appropriate! Admittedly comedy games are not 'the norm' but...can we all agree that a player who can't be trusted not to narrate his Monk flurrying with buttcheeks and ears should possibly just not be trusted to play in that particular campaign? Call him up for the beers and pretzels one.
I've already seen someone on these forums whose Monk made unarmed strikes with his groin.....
Does counting as a monk allow a Brawler to ignore Stunning Fist's +8 BAB requirement? Because as far as I can tell it does not. Which means no Dragon Style until 9.
Well, Dragon STYLE doesn't require Stunning Fist, but Dragon Ferocity is what's needed and not being able to get that until 11th (because you need to take Stunning Fist at 9th) suuuucks.
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Finally got a chance this evening to sit down with the playtest document and two things struck me immediately upon reading the brawler entry:
- The inclusion of monk weapons really isn't in line with the flavour of the class
- something along the lines of Improvised Weapon Mastery would be an excellent fit as a class ability
Finally got a chance this evening to sit down with the playtest document and two things struck me immediately upon reading the brawler entry:
- The inclusion of monk weapons really isn't in line with the flavour of the class
- something along the lines of Improvised Weapon Mastery would be an excellent fit as a class ability
Many people agree with you.
So, I've gotta ask - is there a reason for the defined list of 'limbs' used for an unarmed strike? I mean, Monk has it too, but...it was kinda silly then, and it's really silly now. A trained unarmed combatant will hit you with any and every part of their body and it's going to hurt like dickens/break limbs like balsa wood/kill you with death. It's not going to affect balance (on Monk or Brawler), it isn't going to break verisimilitude, and it's certainly not going to fail to model real-world fighting techniques insofar as being worse at that than Pathfinder in general already is. What's the deal?
because some DMs are thick and think "unarmed strike" means "punch, no exceptions". you have no idea how many times my DM has tried to stop me from natural attacking with my hands full, with him saying it was "kinda cheesy" to kick things.
So, I've gotta ask - is there a reason for the defined list of 'limbs' used for an unarmed strike? I mean, Monk has it too, but...it was kinda silly then, and it's really silly now. A trained unarmed combatant will hit you with any and every part of their body and it's going to hurt like dickens/break limbs like balsa wood/kill you with death. It's not going to affect balance (on Monk or Brawler), it isn't going to break verisimilitude, and it's certainly not going to fail to model real-world fighting techniques insofar as being worse at that than Pathfinder in general already is. What's the deal?because some DMs are thick and think "unarmed strike" means "punch, no exceptions". you have no idea how many times my DM has tried to stop me from natural attacking with my hands full, with him saying it was "kinda cheesy" to kick things.
I've had players who thought similar things. One thought it was just punches, another punches and kicks. I think those guys tend to watch too many of the 'PG-13' martial arts videos, instead of the ones where they use knees, elbows, shins, heels, fists, head butts etc.
Fighting is Serious Business.
So, I've gotta ask - is there a reason for the defined list of 'limbs' used for an unarmed strike? I mean, Monk has it too, but...it was kinda silly then, and it's really silly now. A trained unarmed combatant will hit you with any and every part of their body and it's going to hurt like dickens/break limbs like balsa wood/kill you with death. It's not going to affect balance (on Monk or Brawler), it isn't going to break verisimilitude, and it's certainly not going to fail to model real-world fighting techniques insofar as being worse at that than Pathfinder in general already is. What's the deal?because some DMs are thick and think "unarmed strike" means "punch, no exceptions". you have no idea how many times my DM has tried to stop me from natural attacking with my hands full, with him saying it was "kinda cheesy" to kick things.I've had players who thought similar things. One thought it was just punches, another punches and kicks. I think those guys tend to watch too many of the 'PG-13' martial arts videos, instead of the ones where they use knees, elbows, shins, heels, fists, head butts etc.
Fighting is Serious Business.
It can be for some folks, yeah. Personally, as a trained combatant myself, I only consider fighting to be Serious Business in RPGs that trade on realism - things like Shadowrun, for example, or freeform games with brutal overtones (see also: Dread). For something like Pathfinder or 3.5 or Legend, though? Cinematic combat is the order of the day. I mean, jeez, it's not like we're fighting eighteen-foot winged demons wreathed in unholy flames, bellowing blasphemous battlecries at an uncaring - oh wait we are fighting those. Maybe 'realism' isn't a concern at that point.
And as someone who's been trained in fighting, who has fought, you can...kinda...really tell that the 'fighting' classes were written by folks with no comprehension of how combat works. So why continue to make the same mistakes? Embrace the cinema of it.
As far as Si Mai Wang and/or Fistbeard Beardfist, can we all agree that at no point will we see someone who doesn't know they're jokes?
Female human brawler 11
LG medium humanoid
Init +5; Senses Perception +13
-=DEFENSE=-
AC 24, touch 18, flat 19
HP 114
Fort 12; Ref 12; Will 5
-=OFFENSE=-
Speed 30ft
Melee unarmed attack +23/+18/+13 (1d10+12 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee tiger claws with power attack +23 (2d10+39 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee improved vital strike with power attack +23 (3d10+18 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +23/+23/+18/+18/+13 (1d10+12 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
-=OTHER=-
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
BAB +11; CMB +21; CMD 35
Feats power attack, weapon focus (unarmed), improved grapple, tiger style, weapon specialization (unarmed), tiger claws, vital strike, greater weapon focus (unarmed), furious focus, improved vital strike, greater grapple
Traits reactionary, worldly
Favored class brawler
Favored bonus 11 hit points
Languages common, polyglot
Brawler abilities martial maneuvers 5/day; brawler's flurry (two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting); maneuver training (+3 disarm, +2 disarm, +1 trip); AC bonus +2; brawler strike (magic, cold iron, silver)
Skills
Trained acrobatics 15(10); climb 14(5); intimidate 13(10); perception 13(10); sense motive 13(10); swim 14(5);
Untrained appraise 0; bluff 0; diplomacy 0; intimidate 0;
Wealth 1000ish gp
* +2 brawling mithril chainshirt (10100)
* +2 cloak of resistance (4000)
* +2 belt of perfection (16000)
* +2 ring of protection (8000)
* +2 amulet of mighty fists (16000)
* dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000)
* bracers of the brawler (500)
* several potions of enlarge person
*
Martial Maneuvers
nVali is relatively set in her ways and doesn't often need to rely on feats that she hasn't already acquired; but there are certain sets of feats that she may call upon when the situation demands for it. When she decides to engage in grapples (usually when also enlarged) she acquires several feats that significantly increase her lethality when grappling
- Rapid Grapple, Pinning Knockout, Pinning Rend
- Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish
- Dodge, Toughness
- Step Up, Following Step, Step-up and Strike
- Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, [...]
Expected DPR
nVali's build is only really possible due to the full BAB of the class, a monk could conceivably be designed in the same way, but the lower attack progression significantly cramps the reliability of such a design. nVali is built to completely ignore the brawler's flurry; instead she uses Tiger Claws when full-attacking and Improved Vital Strike when she needs to move too. The focused damage from either of those singular attacks is so great that it goes a long way to overcome DR. She'll often enlarge herself to increase her combat presence.
Using Tiger Claws vs an AC 25 enemy: = 47.25
Using Improved Vital Strike vs AC 25 enemy: = 31.05
when enlarged these are Tiger Claws: 57.25; and Improved Vital Strike 43.05
Varying AC
nVali has rather poor AC and not a lot of opportunity to improve on that - but she has fairly good hitpoints and the ability to grapple and pin enemies efficiently, which goes a long way in making her poor AC not matter much (assuming a single enemy). Against several strong foes she will significantly suffer due to inability to effectively combat and defend against multiple foes; though if there are merely many weak foes she can acquire Cleave and Great Cleave to quickly take down large groups of weaker enemies.
Gameplay Limitation
Unlike my build Berkley "The Hammer" who has a lot of possibilities to adapt to encounters with feats from Martial Maneuvers (but only few uses of the ability a day). And Mikiko, who uses Martial Maneuvers as a toolbox to acquire a single useful feat for an encounter at a time. nVali is built to not use Martial Maneuver most of the time, but when she needs to solve a specific problem, then she acquires large sets of feats to accentuate her fighting style (usually feats that improve grappling). Due to the lack of Combat Expertise, nVali doesn't have much of a toolbox; thus is not as capable of adapting to situational demands.
Closing Thoughts
nVali was designed as a concept character that completely circumvents the brawler's flurry, but still is potent and relevant in combat. She's able to be highly mobile and still contribute a lot to damage deal with Vital Strike, and when in a full-round action her use of Tiger Claws pushes her single-attack damage potential even further. A very strong grapple foundation rounds off the build. The combination of abilities help to buffer against the poor AC and lack of Combat Expertise.
The ability to acquire Great Cleave on-the-fly, along with being enlarge, can be a real boon to slay or damage large numbers of enemies. This raises the thought that an enlarged brawler can acquire Whirlwind Attack to reliably attack large groups of enemies.
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One issue I ran into from the description in Martial Maneuvers was that it says "Combat Feats", but then lists Toughness as one of the options - which isn't a combat feat. Additionally, and I know that this has already been discussed, but being able to pick up Cleave seems like a no brainer, but what about Combat Reflexes? What about Teamwork feats? Dragon Style allows to add 1.5 strength to an unarmed attack, which would definitely fit, but also allows the ability to charge through difficult terrain, which probably wouldn't.
All of that being said, I really enjoy the mechanic of being able to swap out and have a flexible fighting style. I think rather than limiting the options, I think some better description would be helpful.
You know what might make that Awesome Blow ability better? Have it be more like the Dead Shot Deed - combine all of your normal attacks (Including the extra ones gained from Brawler's Flurry and potential Haste effects) into one attack, pushing them back a number of feet equal to the damage dealt - if they run into an obstacle, they take xd6 damage based on how far they would have been knocked back.
This is a pretty long thread, so I'll just give brief comments instead of quoting somebody.
The brawler class starts off weak. You only do 1d6 damage, which isn't bad for a multi-attacking class, except you don't get Flurry of Blows until 2nd-level.
AC also starts off very weak. With 15 point buy you're lucky to start with an AC of 14. Maybe 16 with 20 point buy. The good news is AC scales at a predictable rate rather than by adding a second ability score, so you're not likely to see brawlers with amazingly high AC scores at high levels. But they need something at low levels.
I'd like to see Paizo supply a "standard" brawler or two. Factors such as starting AC depend on how you spent your ability score points, and I'd like to see how Paizo thinks this should be done. One of the monk's problems is the most "obvious" way to build a monk is nowhere near the best way, and I think the brawler runs into that problem.
Simply putting a sample 1st-level brawler (complete, not just skill and feat suggestions) would go a long way to fixing that.
As has probably been endlessly complained about already, Martial Maneuvers needs more clarifying text. In fact, I can see this as a stealthy way to fix the grapple flowchart; if instead of granting grappling feats, it granted far simpler grappling abilities instead.
That's actually a good idea. How would paizo build a brawler?
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If you wanted a different combat style for the Brawler you could have an archetype that replaces Brawlers flurry with a vital strike effect at first level and at higher levels could make multiple vital strike attacks. This would provide similar mobility early but once you had multiple 'vital strike' you would need a full attack to use them. This would make more of a two handed fighter brawler than a two weapon fighter brawler like the base build.
That sounds like a cool idea.
Further thinking about the brawler: I assumed AC 14 because I assumed leather armor. However brawlers can wear chain shirts without a significant penalty. A starting AC of 16 isn't great, but it's not pathetic either.
Two-Weapon Fighting with full Strength bonuses is pretty good. I expect well-built brawlers will try to pump up their Strength. Being able to hit someone twice for 1d6 + 4 damage, more with specialization, seems more than nifty. I still think flurry needs to be moved to 1st-level. Regardless, the attack penalties will make brawlers kind of weak at low levels, compared to other front-line warriors (except TWF rangers, who have the exact same issue).
They can at least make up for it with favored enemy.
* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.Not if they're using close weapons, that's the beauty of it. They can use magic/special material brass knuckles, cesti, rope gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, etc... All the things that RAW, no monk would ever touch. And that just scream "Brawler!"
"The brawler inflicts their brawling damage instead of the normal weapon damage when using any close weapon." Give 'em proficiency in those and improvised weapons and simple weapons. Done.
And since they now count as fighters they can just pick up penetrating strike.
Edit: Even better. Run into a creature with an annoying amount of DR. Martial Maneuvers gets you penetrating strike and Greater Penetrating Strike.
I would like to add my support in respectfully asking the design team to consider some other non magical/supernatual mechanic to replace Brawler's Strike (to clarify just calling Brawler's Extraordinary as I think was suggested upthread would for me be more immersion defeating than this).
Other mundane classes such as fighter and rogue don't have built in mechanics for overcoming damage reduction.
One thing that is available to Brawlers is the ability to pick up Penetrating Strike, and Greater Penetrating Strike with Martial Maneuvers. Granted: this wouldn't be available to them until 12th level.
Another option would be to instead of giving those DR types that the Brawler bypasses would be to bypass 2 points of typed (magic, adamantine, etc.) at each level they would get the not-Ki Strike (2 points at 5th level, 4 points at 9th level, 6 points at 12th level, 8 points at 17th level) for untyped DR. I think it would make sense to maybe add in one more level and have them spaced out a bit more evenly so that you would be able to bypass 10 points of untyped DR, 5 points of untyped DR.
Alternatively, what if there was a Shatter Defenses ability, that could lower DR with a strike. Or an Adaptive Strike, which means that if you hit with one strike, your next strike can bypass that type of damage reduction.
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I think that a possibly good replacement for brawlers strike would be the first one (magic) being swapped out for the ability to apply unarmed strike damage to brass knuckles/cestus, then going up by giving an ability to make an attack as a free action, and if you hit the AC, you ignore DR equal to the damage you would have dealt. Excess damage would be lost of course, but it adds another unique mechanic, and makes the mechanic useful.
My friends and I will be doing a playtest this week on the new classes and I will be playing the Brawler. I am very excited to try out this class to see how it works. While I do like this class a lot and I look forward to playtesting it there are a few things I wish were different with this class.
1.Have the Brawlers weapon list simple be "Close Weapons"
2.Change "Brawlers Flurry", while I do understand why they get it I do not like being pigeonholed into someone who fights with that style, some unarmed warriors fight that why while others put everything they can into single attacks and others focus on grapples and joint locks and I feel this limits the concept a bit for the Brawler.
These are a couple of things I think should be considered before the book is released.
I look forward to playtesting it out and will report back on how it is to play.
My friends and I will be doing a playtest this week on the new classes and I will be playing the Brawler. I am very excited to try out this class to see how it works. While I do like this class a lot and I look forward to playtesting it there are a few things I wish were different with this class.
1.Have the Brawlers weapon list simple be "Close Weapons"
2.Change "Brawlers Flurry", while I do understand why they get it I do not like being pigeonholed into someone who fights with that style, some unarmed warriors fight that why while others put everything they can into single attacks and others focus on grapples and joint locks and I feel this limits the concept a bit for the Brawler.These are a couple of things I think should be considered before the book is released.
I look forward to playtesting it out and will report back on how it is to play.
What? Having more options limits concepts?
Putting everything they have into a single attack would be like grabbing Vital Strike or Deadly Stroke. And yes Brawlers can get Deadly Stroke since they are fighters for prerequisites.
Maneuvers just don't scale well unfortunately. =/
My friends and I will be doing a playtest this week on the new classes and I will be playing the Brawler. I am very excited to try out this class to see how it works. While I do like this class a lot and I look forward to playtesting it there are a few things I wish were different with this class.
1.Have the Brawlers weapon list simple be "Close Weapons"
2.Change "Brawlers Flurry", while I do understand why they get it I do not like being pigeonholed into someone who fights with that style, some unarmed warriors fight that why while others put everything they can into single attacks and others focus on grapples and joint locks and I feel this limits the concept a bit for the Brawler.These are a couple of things I think should be considered before the book is released.
I look forward to playtesting it out and will report back on how it is to play.What? Having more options limits concepts?
Putting everything they have into a single attack would be like grabbing Vital Strike or Deadly Stroke. And yes Brawlers can get Deadly Stroke since they are fighters for prerequisites.
Maneuvers just don't scale well unfortunately. =/
What I meant by limiting concepts was about how every Brawler is going to be a "Two Weapon Fighter" with using Brawlers Flurry. Instead of a set feat chain giving them Two weapon fighting they should have a variable option. That's all I meant
What I meant by limiting concepts was about how every Brawler is going to be a "Two Weapon Fighter" with using Brawlers Flurry. Instead of a set feat chain giving them Two weapon fighting they should have a variable option. That's all I meantMy friends and I will be doing a playtest this week on the new classes and I will be playing the Brawler. I am very excited to try out this class to see how it works. While I do like this class a lot and I look forward to playtesting it there are a few things I wish were different with this class.
1.Have the Brawlers weapon list simple be "Close Weapons"
2.Change "Brawlers Flurry", while I do understand why they get it I do not like being pigeonholed into someone who fights with that style, some unarmed warriors fight that why while others put everything they can into single attacks and others focus on grapples and joint locks and I feel this limits the concept a bit for the Brawler.These are a couple of things I think should be considered before the book is released.
I look forward to playtesting it out and will report back on how it is to play.What? Having more options limits concepts?
Putting everything they have into a single attack would be like grabbing Vital Strike or Deadly Stroke. And yes Brawlers can get Deadly Stroke since they are fighters for prerequisites.
Maneuvers just don't scale well unfortunately. =/
Most monks can flurry. Are they all two weapon fighters? =P
Deadly Stroke seems to fill the Rocket Punch Brawler well, complete with internal hemorrhaging.
What I meant by limiting concepts was about how every Brawler is going to be a "Two Weapon Fighter" with using Brawlers Flurry. Instead of a set feat chain giving them Two weapon fighting they should have a variable option. That's all I meantMy friends and I will be doing a playtest this week on the new classes and I will be playing the Brawler. I am very excited to try out this class to see how it works. While I do like this class a lot and I look forward to playtesting it there are a few things I wish were different with this class.
1.Have the Brawlers weapon list simple be "Close Weapons"
2.Change "Brawlers Flurry", while I do understand why they get it I do not like being pigeonholed into someone who fights with that style, some unarmed warriors fight that why while others put everything they can into single attacks and others focus on grapples and joint locks and I feel this limits the concept a bit for the Brawler.These are a couple of things I think should be considered before the book is released.
I look forward to playtesting it out and will report back on how it is to play.What? Having more options limits concepts?
Putting everything they have into a single attack would be like grabbing Vital Strike or Deadly Stroke. And yes Brawlers can get Deadly Stroke since they are fighters for prerequisites.
Maneuvers just don't scale well unfortunately. =/
Most monks can flurry. Are they all two weapon fighters? =P
Deadly Stroke seems to fill the Rocket Punch Brawler well, complete with internal hemorrhaging.
Actually, only dumb Brawlers are 'Two-weapon Fighters' since the Brawler's Flurry only requires 1 weapon, same as the Monks.
Any Monk or Brawler that can flurry and uses more than 1 weapon clearly doesn't know how to optimize.
Well, I think my point is lost here. First I never worry about optimizing as that is not how I have fun. Second I would like to say that my issue is not that I can pick up other options with feats or maneuvers, my issue is that every Brawler is set to have "Brawlers Furry" and I am not one who enjoys two weapon fighting style, I recognize that I may be alone here but I just do not like being pigeonholed into a build and that is what "Brawlers Furry" makes me feel.
Well, I think my point is lost here. First I never worry about optimizing as that is not how I have fun. Second I would like to say that my issue is not that I can pick up other options with feats or maneuvers, my issue is that every Brawler is set to have "Brawlers Furry" and I am not one who enjoys two weapon fighting style, I recognize that I may be alone here but I just do not like being pigeonholed into a build and that is what "Brawlers Furry" makes me feel.
You are free to not use it buddy. Its handy for what it is because it avoids prerequisites and lets us pump our strength, but feel free to just use your normal full attack. I showed you that you could still make a cool rocket punch build.
Plus it fits the One Two Punch boxer imagery in my head.
Playtest: Bloodcove disguise (or half of it anyway, the other half was spent making the characters). 1st level characters. Leets get ready to ruuuuumbleeee!
This class seemed like it was ready to go out of the box. 1d6+4 strength +1 from the Mizu Ki Hikari Rebel trait was, at this level, enough to put a serious hurtin on the bad guys. Taking combat expertise as the real feat opened up a world of disarm and trip, while getting improved grapple on the fly was a good way to boost defenses against grabby monsters.
Not much in the way of skills but its not supposed to be their forte.
Well, I think my point is lost here. First I never worry about optimizing as that is not how I have fun. Second I would like to say that my issue is not that I can pick up other options with feats or maneuvers, my issue is that every Brawler is set to have "Brawlers Furry" and I am not one who enjoys two weapon fighting style, I recognize that I may be alone here but I just do not like being pigeonholed into a build and that is what "Brawlers Furry" makes me feel.You are free to not use it buddy. Its handy for what it is because it avoids prerequisites and lets us pump our strength, but feel free to just use your normal full attack. I showed you that you could still make a cool rocket punch build.
Plus it fits the One Two Punch boxer imagery in my head.
The Brawler has 5 real class features.
"Don't use 20% of your class if you don't like it" isn't really a good option.