I'm also going to throw my hat into the 'Awesome Blow is not so awesome' ring. At 20th level my fancy trick is to make a bull rush that caps at 10' of movement but gets the damage of one weapon attack?
I'm also going to throw my hat into the 'Awesome Blow is not so awesome' ring. At 20th level my fancy trick is to make a bull rush that caps at 10' of movement but gets the damage of one weapon attack?
.........Giant Fist Gauntlets...........
Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?
You know what might make that Awesome Blow ability better? Have it be more like the Dead Shot Deed - combine all of your normal attacks (Including the extra ones gained from Brawler's Flurry and potential Haste effects) into one attack, pushing them back a number of feet equal to the damage dealt - if they run into an obstacle, they take xd6 damage based on how far they would have been knocked back.
Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?
i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...
Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...
It should really be just combat feats for the sake of simplicity.
Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...
It should probably be a list of whats available.. though then again, that means it'll need more updating when new stuff comes out.
That, or allow all Combat Feats the Brawler meets the prereqs for as potential choices.
Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...It should probably be a list of whats available.. though then again, that means it'll need more updating when new stuff comes out.
That, or allow all Combat Feats the Brawler meets the prereqs for as potential choices.
It's not all combat feats because they don't want you making archers out of it. Which it would actually be pretty good at if it were allowed, interestingly enough.
Seconding that question about the feats! I noticed the typo too.. I personally hope he gains bonus feats as per the text rather than the table.
As much as I'd LIKE to say "Yeah, more feats," The brawler already has fighter BAB, and better than fighter saves. If it's getting the same feat progression with all this extra stuff, I'd have to say it outclasses the fighter.
so,
Buff fighter?
Let's do it.
It should really be just combat feats for the sake of simplicity.Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...
Think the intention of this is so that the brawler doesn't grab Manyshot or Charging Hurler, completely breaking the flavor of a close quarters fighter
It's not all combat feats because they don't want you making archers out of it. Which it would actually be pretty good at if it were allowed, interestingly enough.Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...It should probably be a list of whats available.. though then again, that means it'll need more updating when new stuff comes out.
That, or allow all Combat Feats the Brawler meets the prereqs for as potential choices.
Honestly? I don't think allowing ranged feats would break it. My guy (Seen earlier), could grab Deadly Aim to make his two shuriken do 1d2+6 damage - but with his build, thats all he would really use it for. Unless a Brawler specifically builds for ranged abilities, he won't be really meeitng the prereqs for the juicy feats. At higher levels, he could grab Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot for two uses of the ability, sure - but, why, since you have Brawler's flurry? Unless, again, you were using shuriken.
Actually, a flurry of shuriken backed by a brawler's strength and deadly aim.. could be useful. But with their short range, it has its limitations.
Without good weapon proficiencies, he doesn't have much to work with. Crossbows wouldn't allow him to utilize his likely-massive strength.
Now.. you COULD go with a more dextrous Brawler and aim for Agile Maneuvers and ranged attacks.. but you'll lose out on damage due to a lower strength.
You know what might make that Awesome Blow ability better? Have it be more like the Dead Shot Deed - combine all of your normal attacks (Including the extra ones gained from Brawler's Flurry and potential Haste effects) into one attack, pushing them back a number of feet equal to the damage dealt - if they run into an obstacle, they take xd6 damage based on how far they would have been knocked back.
I'd have them pushed back 5' for every successful hit.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I was underwhelmed by this class. Overall I don't feel it adds anything new, other than the martial maneuvers, which really is just another way to say gimme more feats. In fact, it seems far better than static bonus feats like a fighter gets. Sure, you can't use it for ANY combat feat, but for the ones that don't qualify, you can use the standard feats every 2 levels that all characters get.
In fact, 3 flexible feats from martial maneuvers plus the 7 bonus feats is actually better than a fighter's 10 bonus feats over 20 levels. In addition, improved unarmed strike is granted, and flurry effectively grants 3 more feats.
I hope the Brawler gets fewer bonus feats to make the actual fighter the king of having the most feats still.
I also agree that the weapon proficiency list is a bit odd for a class that's not supposed to have the same martial tradition of the monk - I'd rather see brass knuckles, cestus, and the Throw Anything feat and that's about it.
It's not all combat feats because they don't want you making archers out of it. Which it would actually be pretty good at if it were allowed, interestingly enough.Why can't Martial Maneuvers be used to pick up Style feats?i suspect this will be an ongoing issue with the (vague IMHO) wording of the ability. i think most, if not all, style feats improve your attacks or defense... but there are an enormous number of feats that are going to come down to whether or not your GM feels like they are; i have to think this will cause a ton of headaches in society play where you have different GMs (with different opinions on what counts) every session...It should probably be a list of whats available.. though then again, that means it'll need more updating when new stuff comes out.
That, or allow all Combat Feats the Brawler meets the prereqs for as potential choices.
Honestly? I don't think allowing ranged feats would break it. My guy (Seen earlier), could grab Deadly Aim to make his two shuriken do 1d2+6 damage - but with his build, thats all he would really use it for. Unless a Brawler specifically builds for ranged abilities, he won't be really meeitng the prereqs for the juicy feats. At higher levels, he could grab Point Blank Shot and Rapid shot for two uses of the ability, sure - but, why, since you have Brawler's flurry? Unless, again, you were using shuriken.
Actually, a flurry of shuriken backed by a brawler's strength and deadly aim.. could be useful. But with their short range, it has its limitations.
Without good weapon proficiencies, he doesn't have much to work with. Crossbows wouldn't allow him to utilize his likely-massive strength.
Now.. you COULD go with a more dextrous Brawler and aim for Agile Maneuvers and ranged attacks.. but you'll lose out on damage due to a lower strength.
Play an elf for longbow proficiency. Use your Master Maneuver ability to pick up deadly aim and many shot without ever having to actually take the feats so you're free to use your other bonus feats on snapshot and PBM etc.
My initial thoughts.
1) Flurry of blows is .... well its dull.
2) The language for the Brawlers bonus feats (and maneuvers) is very strange, and will promote a lot of confusion. I am not sure what needs to be cut out by simply not saying Combat Feats instead, bu this is a weird bit of RAW to have to muddle through.
3) Awesome blow is weak as a capstone.
Otherwise, this is looking pretty good. Makes me feel even worse for Core monks... but looking decent.
Brawler actually looks like a great class for me. My only complaint is that their capstone is surprisingly crappy.
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I like this as a "better monk." The claims about "but it's without the mysticism" weaken when Brawler Strike lets your fists overcome magic DR... Why not let them use gauntlets/brass knuckles/cesti/all the other weird fist weapons y'all have put in that are useless to monks as written and make them enchant 'em like normal fighters? Knockout is "not mystical" but Stunning Fist "is mystical?" I just don't get it. I do think this would make a lovely Pathfinder 2.0 Monk, with some later separate "mystical martial artist" class that has actual real mystical stuff (qigong + monk ++). Like this old variant 2e monk that's kinda like a preview of Book Of Nine Swords.
I definitely agree with removing proficiency with the "weird" monk weapons - this has what to do with kusari-gamas? Give them a bunch of actual "whup-ass" kind of weapons, the hand weapons I mention above plus other relevant thematic ones.
The biggest problem I see with this class is the Martial Maneuvers. Pretty much any "use any X" ability turns into a nightmare of decision paralysis at the table. "Wait let me read through Ultimate X to find the absolute sweetest feat for this situation!!!"
The Martial Maneuvers description isn't clear - before 6th level can you just spend 2 move actions to use it twice and be emulating 2 feats anyway? Is the 6th level ability just mildly quickening it?
You still must meet the prereqs for those feats, Davick - Many Shot requires Rapid Shot, which requires Point Blank Shot. Granted, that wouldn't be hard to get by then with your bonus feats..
But if you're aiming for an archer who can spontaneously grab Many Shot and Deadly aim a few times a day, why not just go ranger or fighter? Theres nothing else this class really offers for that kind of character - except possibly the ability to unarmed strike anyone who gets into melee with you. I'd still prefer fighter/ranger in that case, though.
Hrm. I like this as a "better monk." The claims about "but it's without the mysticism" weaken when Brawler Strike lets your fists overcome magic DR... Why not let them use gauntlets/brass knuckles/cesti/all the other weird fist weapons y'all have put in that are useless to monks as written and make them enchant 'em like normal fighters? Knockout is "not mystical" but Stunning Fist "is mystical?" I just don't get it. I do think this would make a lovely Pathfinder 2.0 Monk, with some later separate "mystical martial artist" class that has actual real mystical stuff (qigong + monk ++). Like this old variant 2e monk that's kinda like a preview of Book Of Nine Swords.
The biggest problem I see with this class is the Martial Maneuvers. Pretty much any "use any X" ability turns into a nightmare of decision paralysis at the table. "Wait let me read through Ultimate X to find the absolute sweetest feat for this situation!!!"
The Martial Maneuvers description isn't clear - before 6th level can you just spend 2 move actions to use it twice and be emulating 2 feats anyway? Is the 6th level ability just mildly quickening it?
Says that if you use the ability while its active, it'll switch feats - in order to use the 2-feats version at 6th level, you have to do it at the same time. One move action for two feats - counts as two uses of it, but one action.
I think.. but I'm sure on the first part of that.
If this ability is triggered before the duration expires,
the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a
new one in its place.
If this ability is triggered before the duration expires,
the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a
new one in its place.
Ah you're right. Cool.
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You still must meet the prereqs for those feats, Davick - Many Shot requires Rapid Shot, which requires Point Blank Shot. Granted, that wouldn't be hard to get by then with your bonus feats..
But if you're aiming for an archer who can spontaneously grab Many Shot and Deadly aim a few times a day, why not just go ranger or fighter? Theres nothing else this class really offers for that kind of character - except possibly the ability to unarmed strike anyone who gets into melee with you. I'd still prefer fighter/ranger in that case, though.
Because I can rapid shot many shot deadly aim you at range, and without dropping my bow power attack flurry you with kicks in melee. And have feats left over. A lot of them.
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First impressions...
*Martial Maneuvers: Deal sweet lord in the 9th circle, that is going to drive the Dev team CRAZY with FAQ requests. For sanity's sake, keep it simple and just make it all combat feats. You can see from this thread people are already questioning whether style feats, by default, can be taken with these. Speaking of which, is letting a class take three feats in the same chain at the drop of a hat a good thing? It's definitely a new concept, which I applaud, but wow that has the potential to drag games to a halt as characters (and GMs) redraw the metaphorical map with their character's combat statistics. It was bad enough whenever I used forgotten trick on my ninja; this is like that cubed.
*Maneuvers Training: Straightforward, emphasizes the classes focus on maneuvers, works well with other class features, goes after an aspect of the game pretty much no other class bothers to look at specifically. I like it.
*Brawler Strikes: That's really just Ki Strike, isn't it? Sure, they're getting it a level or two later, but then they can actually choose whether they want lawful, good, or whatever penetrating strikes. Plus, it's always on. Maybe it tie it into their remaining Martial Maneuver uses for the day? That way, it's least limited in how often it can be used, same as with Ki Strike.
*Knockout: that's actually pretty cool! I like how you can get multiple uses by lowering the DC. Interesting new mechanic.
*Awesome Blow: Okay, this one is a little underwhelming. I know it's meant to combo well with their focus on combat maneuvers, but it's going to provoke a lot of questions and concerns. For example, say you use this in conjunction with a grapple and throw them into a wall. Is the target still grappled by you? Are they now prone? Are you if you maintain the grapple? Plus, the extra 1d6 extra damage is just weak. Very awkward capstone
Overall impression: it's a solid class, simple and straightforward. Not necessarily going to steal the monks thunder entirely, but it's going to be a pretty hefty contender for the 'Bruce Lee' class.
Final note: daggers and handaxes are simple weapons, so the listing in their starting proficiencies is redundant.
Because I can rapid shot many shot deadly aim you at range, and without dropping my bow power attack flurry you with kicks in melee. And have feats left over. A lot of them.You still must meet the prereqs for those feats, Davick - Many Shot requires Rapid Shot, which requires Point Blank Shot. Granted, that wouldn't be hard to get by then with your bonus feats..
But if you're aiming for an archer who can spontaneously grab Many Shot and Deadly aim a few times a day, why not just go ranger or fighter? Theres nothing else this class really offers for that kind of character - except possibly the ability to unarmed strike anyone who gets into melee with you. I'd still prefer fighter/ranger in that case, though.
Heh you know, this gave me the idea to do some kind of Roll20 arena with these classes. :3
Heh you know, this gave me the idea to do some kind of Roll20 arena with these classes. :3Because I can rapid shot many shot deadly aim you at range, and without dropping my bow power attack flurry you with kicks in melee. And have feats left over. A lot of them.You still must meet the prereqs for those feats, Davick - Many Shot requires Rapid Shot, which requires Point Blank Shot. Granted, that wouldn't be hard to get by then with your bonus feats..
But if you're aiming for an archer who can spontaneously grab Many Shot and Deadly aim a few times a day, why not just go ranger or fighter? Theres nothing else this class really offers for that kind of character - except possibly the ability to unarmed strike anyone who gets into melee with you. I'd still prefer fighter/ranger in that case, though.
I am so in.
Heh you know, this gave me the idea to do some kind of Roll20 arena with these classes. :3Because I can rapid shot many shot deadly aim you at range, and without dropping my bow power attack flurry you with kicks in melee. And have feats left over. A lot of them.You still must meet the prereqs for those feats, Davick - Many Shot requires Rapid Shot, which requires Point Blank Shot. Granted, that wouldn't be hard to get by then with your bonus feats..
But if you're aiming for an archer who can spontaneously grab Many Shot and Deadly aim a few times a day, why not just go ranger or fighter? Theres nothing else this class really offers for that kind of character - except possibly the ability to unarmed strike anyone who gets into melee with you. I'd still prefer fighter/ranger in that case, though.
Oh, and I can trip you when I'm done.
Speaking of which, If not for needing Combat Ex, a great use for Martial Maneuver would be picking up an actual maneuver chain when you wanted it. That's kind of a bummer considering the name of the ability.
I'm digging it so far. Seems fairly balanced between the brawler and the monk, and some of the new abilities are neat. Everyone's already said this, but I'll add my voice: Awesome Blow is a lame (and mechanically weak) capstone.
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I'll see if I can get a roll20 game set up for this weekend - unless we just want to do PbP, which means we can just post whenever?
I'll see if I can get a roll20 game set up for this weekend - unless we just want to do PbP, which means we can just post whenever?
Either or would be awesome. It'd be nice to Try some different scenarios on roll20 though.
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Having Awesome Blow be (Su) means the Brawler can use it on Incorporeal baddies.
I think getting it at an earlier level might alleviate peoples' woes. Maybe an upgraded version of it at 20th level instead?
(also, given the number of comments on just this one ability, shouldn't it have it's own thread?)
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Except for the Ki powers, I'm fairly certain the Brawler just punched out the Monks teeth, took his money and his niche and ran off with it. I guess the Monk is now the Brawler's follower. He's not the Brawler's cohort because those are actually useful, no, the Monk gets to follow the Brawler around and carry all of his stuff and sing praises about how amazing the Brawler is.
*Martial Maneuvers: Deal sweet lord in the 9th circle, that is going to drive the Dev team CRAZY with FAQ requests. For sanity's sake, keep it simple and just make it all combat feats. You can see from this thread people are already questioning whether style feats, by default, can be taken with these. Speaking of which, is letting a class take three feats in the same chain at the drop of a hat a good thing? It's definitely a new concept, which I applaud, but wow that has the potential to drag games to a halt as characters (and GMs) redraw the metaphorical map with their character's combat statistics. It was bad enough whenever I used forgotten trick on my ninja; this is like that cubed.
i mostly reposted this just to applaud your math skills :)
you're completely right though about the FAQ requests... that list really needs to be more specific. even if they want to specifically limit the options (which i think is good, since i think these might already be stronger than fighters for 1hander builds, and possibly even for sword-and-board), but there must be some kind of more specific list they could create.
Except for the Ki powers, I'm fairly certain the Brawler just punched out the Monks teeth, took his money and his niche and ran off with it. I guess the Monk is now the Brawler's follower. He's not the Brawler's cohort because those are actually useful, no, the Monk gets to follow the Brawler around and carry all of his stuff and sing praises about how amazing the Brawler is.
Well, Qinggong, Sohei and Zen archer can still compete. Good Will save progression is a big advantage too.
Overall, I think the Brawler is more effective than Monks, but that's mostly because Monks are not very effective (except for a few archetypes).
What Brawlers need is a better capstone.
Well... That and better/simpler wording for their class features. Do we really need "These bonus feats must be ones that affect or improve her defenses or melee attacks."? Isn't "must be a Combat Feat" enough?
Except for the Ki powers, I'm fairly certain the Brawler just punched out the Monks teeth, took his money and his niche and ran off with it. I guess the Monk is now the Brawler's follower. He's not the Brawler's cohort because those are actually useful, no, the Monk gets to follow the Brawler around and carry all of his stuff and sing praises about how amazing the Brawler is.
Nah, the monk is still pretty decent. Brawler is probably best in straight up combat, but don't forget the monk's high will saves, ki pool (extra attack per round that stacks with haste is nice), and archetype support. They still have a lot going for them, I'd say.
The brawler could use some thrown weapon capabilites and maybe some kind of kiai (shout) to give them some limited ranged offense.
Their reliance on maneuvers and unarmed strikes leaves me wondering what they can bring to the table against Huge opponents.
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Building a Brawler is making me very disappointed. Besides Martial Maneuvers (which is neat, but doesn't carry the class), there's nothing here I couldn't do with a Brawler Fighter. And worse, because I can't use that sweet 2 level dip of MoMS to get some martial arts Style goodness in there (Dragon and Snake baby, Dragon and Snake).
That restriction on multiclassing screws a few things in that vein.
What about dragon shouts? Ain't eastern themed there, Feral!
:P