About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
I really like the Brawlers capstone ability and do not want them to lose it but maybe gain it a little earlier in the class and give them a different capstone ability.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
...tearing limbs off?
Maybe I just highly value one of the few Crit Multiplier Increases in the game.
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About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
...tearing limbs off?
Maybe I just highly value one of the few Crit Multiplier Increases in the game.
As much as I would love the Fist of the North Star-esque ability mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm not sure what you could do for the Capstone.
People don't like Awesome Blow because its a CMD check at a stage of a game where they are impossible to make. A Pit Fiend's CMD is a 53. If I have a 30 Str, I still fail no matter what.
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I think an ability that lets them choose a close weapon and increase the critical range by one and have it stack with keen or increase multiplier by one would be nice. An additional ability like DR or a way to increase the critical range/mult (whichever one you didn't get the flat increase to) by expending uses of martial maneuvers might make an interesting capstone. Or standard fighter capstone as that works fairly well.
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Another problem is that it costs a standard action, so no full attack. It size limit is also very restrictive at such high levels. Large and bigger creatures become very common at 6th level and are the norm at levels 12+.
I'd like to see a capstone that does something cool instead of simply increasing DPR. At 20th level a full attack will kill pretty much anything anyway.
Maybe give them the ability to use standard-action maneuvers as a swift action. Or give them something similar to Oracles of Battle, who can use a full-round action to move up to their base speed and make a full attack.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone
The pwoblem is that it only works against creatures of the same size or smaller, and few of the CR 15+ are of that size. Besides, flying creatures are inmune to being knocked prone, and agian, even fewer 15+ creatures are medium or smaller and do not fly at the same time.
I like the intent, to give them something cool not inmediately related to DPR. i think the replacement shoudl be something in the same spirit.
EIT: it is probably a good ability for level 10 or something.
I just got an image of the Hulk punching the giant flying space whale in the Avengers and stopping it dead with one punch.
Hello there, I'm new to these forums (first post) and i love the fighter class and the monk for that matter. i have a feat list that might put a spin to this discussion. this thread is really long, and i havent read up on all of it, so i apologize if i repeat something thats already been said.
Feat list Human
lvl 1: Skill Focus [Survival]
Skill Focus [Knowledge: Planes]
lvl 3: Eldritch Heritage [Orc Bloodline]; Touch of Rage
lvl 5: Eldritch Heritage [Abyssal Bloodline]; Claws
lvl 7: Dragon Style
lvl 9: Dragon Ferocity
lvl 11: Eldritch Heritage, Improved [orc]; Strength of the beast
lvl 13: Eldritch Heritage, Improved [Abyssal]; Strength of the abyss
lvl 15:
lvl 17: Eldritch Heritage, Greater [orc] Power of Giants
lvl 19:Now this is how i think... the dragon style amplifies the str bonus of unarmed attacks as noted before in another post. I also dipped into the orc and abyssal bloodlines with the eldricht heritage feats. leaving 2 feats open for vital strikes or power strike or whatever you wish to go with. Another bonus is of course the large size wich for a monk up the unarmed damage to 4d8 at level 20. If going for the fighter class you get plenty of bonuses to your unarmed damage trough brawler and feats.
The drawback is of course the charisma points, and the question is if it is worth it... In my eyes it is since i essentially gain large size and +18 str from feats. Some extra CON and ac from the large size also help out alot. Now doing some math, lets say we get a base 15 str wich isnt unreasonable. You get a whooping base 31 str if we do not count the extra points we get every 4 levels. if we add an item that gives you +3 (wich is pretty common in most medium powerlevel campains) we get an end of 34 str with a much higher potential.
Now add the large size, 4d8+18 base damage. With flurry it makes for a pretty hefty sum of damage. With improved vital strike we go to 12d8+18.
If you go with the fighter route we can safetly assume that we get weapon focus and power...
Sorry dude, but:
1) I don't think you can take Eldritch Heritage for two bloodlines. Even if you can...2) Both Strenght of Abyss and Strenght of the Beast are inherent bonuses, so they don't stack.
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Quick question:Does Brawlers Flurry count as Flurry of Blows for the purposes of feat prerequisites and/or prestige class prerequisites? Could it?
I get that it doesn't say it does, but I would like to playtest a Brother of the Seal/Brawler personally and see how the two interact, and the abilities are very similar (although the brawler's flurry is clearly better).
Also curious about the previously stated question as to brawler levels counting as monk levels for AC bonus and unarmed strike damage. Any answer on that? Didn't see it in the first post.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
...tearing limbs off?
Maybe I just highly value one of the few Crit Multiplier Increases in the game.
As much as I would love the Fist of the North Star-esque ability mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm not sure what you could do for the Capstone.
People don't like Awesome Blow because its a CMD check at a stage of a game where they are impossible to make. A Pit Fiend's CMD is a 53. If I have a 30 Str, I still fail no matter what.
This is the coolest capstone my friend and I were able to think up. It goes sorta along the lines of the Monk capstone with a tinge of Oracle Capstone.
Unflinching: The Brawler has become a paragon of physical prowess, forevermore he is treated as a Native Outsider. Additionally his physical stats are immune to ability damage and drain. He is also immune to any transmutation effect against his will.
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What about letting them inflict status conditions? Hell, could make it a theme of the class if you wanted to but things like staggered, 'exhausted', prone, etc without using maneuvers could be a niche that Brawler can occupy.
Even if it's just for the capstone there's a lot of things on the condition list that are really nice and very easy to justify as being done in melee. Guy boxes your ears (Deafened), jabs you in the eyes/rakes with claws (Blind), pummels you with gut shots (staggered), winds you with a crushing blow to the solar plexus (exhausted), etc, so forth.
I will be watching MMA fights as well as the Hulk to help me come up with some ideas.
What about letting them inflict status conditions? Hell, could make it a theme of the class if you wanted to but things like staggered, 'exhausted', prone, etc without using maneuvers could be a niche that Brawler can occupy.
Even if it's just for the capstone there's a lot of things on the condition list that are really nice and very easy to justify as being done in melee. Guy boxes your ears (Deafened), jabs you in the eyes/rakes with claws (Blind), pummels you with gut shots (staggered), winds you with a crushing blow to the solar plexus (exhausted), etc, so forth.
It's really not too much of a stretch considering the Unarmed Fighter get's Eye Gouge at 13th level.
I'd like to see the capstone tied to maneuvers, but I'm blanking at the moment as to how I would want it implemented. Perhaps select one maneuver that they are a true master of and give them something like a +20 to that move.
Ah, what about giving them the ability to use any maneuvers as a swift action and against opponents of any size. Add a nice numerical bonus so they actually have a chance to succeed against those huge size bonuses to CMDs it could work! :D
Althpough even that doesn't look to be on par with the challenges faced by 20th level characters.
I'd like to see the capstone tied to maneuvers, but I'm blanking at the moment as to how I would want it implemented. Perhaps select one maneuver that they are a true master of and give them something like a +20 to that move.
They could ignore size bonuses to CMD?
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Well, if you want to be proficient in improvised weapons, you can just take Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, both of which are available at 1st level (or wait until your 2nd-level bonus feat). The typical "tavern brawler" character isn't going to be 8th level (BAB +8 for Improvised Weapon Mastery), and that feat increases your improvised weapon damage and crit range.In other words, improvised weapons is an option for a brawler build, but I don't think it should be default for all brawlers, any more than I think all brawlers should get Weapon Focus (unarmed strike). And note that COG and TA are effectively Weapon Focus (improvised melee weapon) and Weapon Focus (improvised ranged weapon).
I didn't say they should get Improvised Weapon Mastery though.
And I can see how Throw Anything is akin "Weapon Focus: Improvised Ranged Weapon" since it gives a +1 bonus on attack rolls (for splash weapons at least), but I'm not seeing it for Catch Off Guard. It just removes the penalty and has that "flatfooted if you're unarmed" thing.
I think that's a small enough benefit that having it as a 1st level Bonus Feat isn't a problem. Hasn't seemed to cause any for the Monk of the Empty Hand, at least.
But I also don't think it's necessary, just backing up what that guy meant.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
The problems with it are multiple.
1.) It comes way too late to be of any use. There aren't a whole lot of Medium sized or smaller CR 15+ creatures, and even less that are CR 20.
2.) It's boring. Most capstones are cool things like "Change your type from Humanoid to X and gain these abilities" or "Automatically confirm critical hits" or "Gain DR, Maximize healing, and Banish evil outsiders when you hit them". Not "Gain access to a Combat Maneuver that is basically a slightly improved Bull Rush". Also, 25 Str really isn't THAT high as a prerequisite, and one of the Feats it requires is pretty much a must have for any Str build.
3.) It's not even unique. A Prestige Class (Brother of the Seal) grants a similar ability as early as 9th level, and adds improvements up to 13th. When a pretty weak PrC grants your capstone 11 levels early and does it better after a while, there's a problem IMO.
If it came in at an earlier level (13th, perhaps, though even earlier would be nice and not exactly overpowered), I'd love it. I've always thought it was a darn cool combat maneuver, even if it's not optimal in most scenarios (big fan of Bull Rush here, though I'd never build a character around it. Good times are had in conjunction with a dude who uses Pit spells).
Anywho, I did post a trio of abilities earlier I think would be proper capstones.
-Make a new capstone based on the description of the class, especially the "Versatile, agile, and able to adapt to most enemy attacks" bit. Many things fit into this description, including but not limited to:
---Immunity to certain status effects, especially ones like Fatigue or Stunning, the ability to negate critical hits, and gains Damage Reduction (DR 5/- at least?).
^That might be better to gain at certain intervals though, like Fatigue at 5th, with DR 1/- being granted at 5th/10th/15th and then 2 more at 20th or summat, and so on. Starts at a lower level, caps out at 20th like some capstones.
---The ability to actually adapt to your enemy's attacks. Get hit with a fire attack? Next round you have Fire Resistance 20. Vampire slapping negative levels on you? After the first hit, you're immune (or perhaps have something like the Dhampir: you stop taking penalties, but still die when your negative levels equal your HD). Take slashing damage? Gain DR X/Bludgeoning or Piercing. So on and so forth. My favorite of the ideas. I'd actually put this one a bit earlier if I thought I could get away with it, but as it seems on par with most capstones, safer to just say it's a replacement. =)
^Would be a bit harder to balance, but I based it off of the "versatile and adaptable" bit of the description, and I think it's really cool. The main issue with this one is the "What happens if you get hit with multiple types of attacks in a round?" problem. Do you gain resistance to all of them? The first one that hits you? A choice at the end of the round?
I'd lean towards all of them, as long as it was resistance instead of immunity. So if a vampire whacks you with his slam while using a Flaming AoMF you gain Fire Resistance 20, DR 10/- Slashing or Piercing, and whatsit called from the Dhampir...Resist Level Drain, thassit.
---"Martial Maneuver Mastery" Feats learned now last for 24 hours, can learn up to 4, and each is triggered as a Free action.
Probably the most obvious choice, the "Make the main class ability better" ability, though in hindsight being able to swap 4 Free Feats, keep them all day, and do it as Free action may be a bit much.
Variations:
-Time taken moves down to a Swift action, duration increased to 10 minutes/level.
-Time is still a Move action, but Feats last 24 hours.
-Duration increased to hours/level.
-Can get 4, time is a Free action.
Etc., etc. the gist being that Martial Maneuvers gets a LOT better as a capstone, which fits in with stuff like the Paladin's capstone basically increasing most of his Auras to their logical conclusion.
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I'd like to see the capstone tied to maneuvers, but I'm blanking at the moment as to how I would want it implemented. Perhaps select one maneuver that they are a true master of and give them something like a +20 to that move.They could ignore size bonuses to CMD?
I like this, but how hard would it be to calculate on the fly?
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I'd like to see the capstone tied to maneuvers, but I'm blanking at the moment as to how I would want it implemented. Perhaps select one maneuver that they are a true master of and give them something like a +20 to that move.
I actually had an idea for this. I think it could be specific per maneuver to help that maneuver be relevant.
Trip:You can trip flying creatures. They must make a DC 10+1/2level+higher of strength or dex modifier fly check or fall to the ground and take falling damage as appropriate. If they make it, they have the prone condition in the air until their next round, but do not provoke attacks of opportunity to stand prone while flying. This allows a Brawler to trip creatures immune to being tripped or to the prone condition. Furthermore, you can trip creatures of any size.
Disarm:You can disarm natural weapons. With a successful disarm check, you may render one of a creature's natural attacks and render that attack useless until their next turn. Alternatively, you may make them make a DC=Disarm Check reflex save or be flat-footed as you make them have to focus on freeing their natural weapons.
Grapple:You are treated as 5 sizes larger for the purposes of your CMB and CMD to grapple.
Bull Rush:You can bull rush any creature. If it is flying, it is knocked back through the air in any direction, but every 10ft. horizontal is equal to 5 ft. vertical.
Like as had been said, the biggest weaknesses of Awesome Blow are that shield slam does basically the same thing, and that it only works against creatures the same size or smaller than the brawler. Heck, you could use martial maneuvers to grab improved shield bash, two weapon fighting, and shield slam at that level assuming you spent a feat somewhere for shield proficiency.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
Awesome blow could work, but requires some big fixes,
1) upgrade the size it can be used targets one or two sizes bigger than the character,2) make the damage twice the weapon/unarmed damage,
3) increase the distance the target moves based on size difference,
ie, if the creature was her size it moves 20ft, if it was smaller it moves 40ft.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
Ideas:
Ground and Pound: The Brawler can make a single Combat maneuver check, if successful, the target is knocked prone, and the Brawler can unleash a full Brawler's Flurry gaining bonus damage (half level? extra d6?).
Wind-Up Strike: The Brawler can make a single punch as a standard action. If successful, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Brawler level + Strength modifier) or have one of the following occur (Brawler's choice)
-Unconscious for 1d4 hours
-Paralyzed for 2d6 rounds
-Slain
Maybe something that lets them Break people sort of like Bane from the Dark knight rises, The Brawler can make "Sunder" attempts against foes bodies.
You know, there was a more in-depth thematic answer in mind earlier, but I think my long-winded answer can be summarized like this.
People keep saying the Monk should be Bruce Lee.
I think what people want, pardon the pun, is for the brawler to be Brute Lee.
In vid-game terms, I keep seeing the shoto-clones as monks of varying types, along with anyone else with a projectile.
Brawlers, conversely, tend to be Everyone Else.
Using Street Fighter IV as an example - Rufus is a Brawler. Abel is a Brawler. E. Honda and Zhangief are Brawlers. Guy...is a Ninja. As are Ibuki and Vega/Balrog/'Claw'.
I'm honestly not sure if Rolento counts as a reflavored Ninja or a Brawler.
I point this out since, conceptually, the game covers multiple angles on that front - monks, brawlers, and a few ninjas.
But that may be part of the problem - if people see monks as a whole as Street Fighter with projectiles and such, then those type of capstones are easier to conceptualize.
I think Awesome Blow has potential, but needs some more 'oomph'.
Tekken Tag Tournament 2 might have some useful inspirations in regards to the type of power ranges that could go into making Awesome Blow truly Awesome...perhaps even Unblockable.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
I support Rynjin's basic notion: something that makes Martial Maneuvers even sexier. I would like to see the basic ability (martial maneuvers) rebalanced a bit in the first place, but for the capstone I imagine something like: "The brawler's daily uses of her martial maneuvers ability refreshes every hour instead of once a day."
The basic ability itself has the problem that either (or both) the duration is too short, and there are too few daily uses to rely on significant regular changes. By level 10 I would expect the ability to be pretty solid and a staple in most encounters - but the reality of the current rules is that a 3-feat adjustment could be done once a day, allowing a "fully active" fight once a day.
...
Compare that to a slayer who can, at level 10, get +3 to attack and damage and various skills at will as a move action. The duration is essentially unlimited for the purposes of the fight. The benefits, at level 10, are roughly equivalent to Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization on the combat side, and Skill Focus (without the level 10 bonuses) in a wide variety of skills.
The brawler is more adaptable and can apply the feats chosen to all enemies - but that is a relatively mute point when the slayer can change targets whenever he wants to and essentially has his benefits always.
The brawler benefits from higher improved unarmed damage progression. But the slayer gets sneak attack. Bonus feats (brawler) are balanced against slayer talents. (As a side note, having custom options like "slayer talents" are cooler and more fun than just "bonus feats", they add unique options that often improve class specific abilities.)
The brawler gets free TWF-feats, maneuver training and AC bonus. The AC bonus is necessary to balance out the limitation of light armor or less. Maneuver training is neat. TWF-feats I would rather take manually and get something original instead. Perhaps instead of flurry, making martial maneuvers into an always available ability would work here. That would also make a martial maneuvers based capstone even more natural.
I just wanna throw this out there, but i would like to see some kind of flavorful ability that counts as still mind...and it has nothing to do with me wanting to play a champion of iori...<_<...>_>
I've posted this on the blog thread, but figured it belongs here as well.
Although it is great that some core elements (proficiencies) and high-level abilities of the brawler are getting respecced, I would really like to see some attention given to Martial Maneuvers. It is a brilliant class ability that is restricted from really blossoming by the low number of uses per day.
I would suggest either increasing the uses per day equal to brawler level (rather than half brawler level). Or alternatively, at level 4 to 6(ish) add additional uses per day equal to the higher of Str/Dex. This would be in tune with the Knockout mechanic, and granting the additional uses at a higher level (4 to 6 or so) prevents making the brawler a quick dip class.
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About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
My suggestion is a pumped up Awesome Blow. Essentially it is just Awesome Blow, but the brawler is considered one size category larger and is automatically under the effect of a True Strike spell.
Truly Awesome Blow
As a standard action, the brawler may perform an awesome blow combat maneuver. The brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of this maneuver and gains a +20 insight bonus to her roll. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet, plus and additional 5 feet for every 5 that the roll exceeds the opponents CMD, in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage for every 10' the opponent was knocked back, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
So with a 20 BAB, +10 Str, +5 enhancement and an Enlarge Person the brawler could knock back a huge size creature with a CMB of +57. The brawler would be limited to only one attack a round like this, but it would almost definitely hit.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
My suggestion is a pumped up Awesome Blow. Essentially it is just Awesome Blow, but the brawler is considered one size category larger and is automatically under the effect of a True Strike spell.
Truly Awesome Blow
As a standard action, the brawler may perform an awesome blow combat maneuver. The brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of this maneuver and gains a +20 insight bonus to her roll. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet, plus and additional 5 feet for every 5 that the roll exceeds the opponents CMD, in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage for every 10' the opponent was knocked back, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
So with a 20 BAB, +10 Str, +5 enhancement and an Enlarge Person the brawler could knock back a huge size creature with a CMB of +57. The brawler would be limited to only one attack a round like this, but it would almost definitely hit.
See now that is pretty bad ass. Double the damage on your attack and call it a day.
See now that is pretty bad ass. Double the damage on your attack and call it a day.
Thanks! I like this because it is not really about the damage though. It is more cinematic.
Need to keep the BBEG away from the McGuffin? "Don't touch that!" Wham!
Bad guy about to coup de grace your friend? "Get away from him!" Wham!
Minion interfering with your primary caster? "Leave her alone!" Wham!
There aren't any "threat" mechanics in Pathfinder, but I can't think of anything more rage inducing that repeatedly knocking the bad guy down or into a wall.
Just tons of fun!
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
My suggestion is a pumped up Awesome Blow. Essentially it is just Awesome Blow, but the brawler is considered one size category larger and is automatically under the effect of a True Strike spell.
Truly Awesome Blow
As a standard action, the brawler may perform an awesome blow combat maneuver. The brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of this maneuver and gains a +20 insight bonus to her roll. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet, plus and additional 5 feet for every 5 that the roll exceeds the opponents CMD, in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage for every 10' the opponent was knocked back, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
So with a 20 BAB, +10 Str, +5 enhancement and an Enlarge Person the brawler could knock back a huge size creature with a CMB of +57. The brawler would be limited to only one attack a round like this, but it would almost definitely hit.
Add in a bit about the Brawler can attempt to hit creatures outside of his size range by accepting a -5 penalty per size category.
For example, the Brawler (with the above change) is counted as large for purposes of affecting targets. He can accept a -5 penalty on his attempt to hit a huge creature, or a -10 for gargantuan and -15 for colossal.
Would be an awesome cinematic for the Brawler to walk up to a colossal red dragon, and be all like, "BACK OFF!!" *WHAM*
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not really a mechanical suggestion but now that the pool of "flurryable weapons" is simple + close rather than monk weapons i would like it if it was renamed "Pummel"
Might be cooler to just allow it as part of an attack action (including Flurry?). Distance pushed is cumulative, and takes place after the attack ends.
ATATATATATATATA!
*FWOOSH*
"We have achieved liftoff."
What if the capstone was something like a combo of awesome blow crossed with the mechanics of the gunslinger's dead shot. Your would be able to get 4 attacks in for damage and then make a combat maneuver roll to see if you knock them back. You could give them a +5 bonus to their CMB for each hit after the first.
It would be a flurry of powerful punches and then the target goes flying backwards!
On to a different concern: no matter how many builds I play with and what inspiration I draw upon; mechanically the brawler is just a combat-orientated monk. The class takes away all the monk flavor, keeps all the unarmedness, and allows for brawling armor and fighter feats. That is great for damage - but as a class there is just so little that makes it feel special or differentiated.
Consider:
Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel large feat potential
Mikiko Konda Snake Style toolbox build
nVali Letoba ignores flurries entirely
Ruby Spring bleeds and shreds enemies
All the builds I've put together could also have been done as a fighter or as a monk. Between the three (brawler, fighter, monk) the variation in the builds is negligible: the monks will deal a bit less damage and have better defenses. The fighter and brawler share about equal defenses and equal damage.
It's just so same-sy.
The idea of a full attack followed by an Awesome Blow has some cool flavor, but I think it would have less utility and be more of just a thing you did on every full attack.
Consider, with either the standard Awesome Blow or my enhanced Truly Awesome Blow you can close, hit and send the opponent backwards (okay, you will probably fail to send the opponent backwards with the standard Awesome Blow, but whatever). Your opponent then has to close with you in order to hit back. This prevents him from getting a full attack, or if he has to stand it prevents him from getting any attack at all unless he has a significant reach. If he is already next to you, you can choose between doing a lot of damage with a full attack or get him away from you with an Awesome Blow. This gives you a choice, and choice is good!
If you combine the full attack and the Awesome Blow then you have to close with a regular attack, let the opponent full attack you, then you can full attack back and send him flying. Or you can wait until the opponent closes, then full attack and send him flying. At this point the opponent will not close anymore. There is no point! He will go after the wizard or something instead to make you come to him.
You also remove all the awesome saves you can do with the Truly Awesome Blow. If you run to your opponent then have to wait till the following round to get your Awesome Blow in you are too late.
Well I didn't say you could only do it as part of a full attack, just that you could do it as an attack action. Much like Sunder, Disarm, or Trip.
You can do all of those as a single attack, do all of your attacks as them, or mix them up.
Being able to do the same thing with Awesome Blow would be neato.
Well I didn't say you could only do it as part of a full attack, just that you could do it as an attack action. Much like Sunder, Disarm, or Trip.
You can do all of those as a single attack, do all of your attacks as them, or mix them up.
Being able to do the same thing with Awesome Blow would be neato.
Ooo, I like the image of that in my head. Punching four dudes around me and sending them flying.
I'd also like capstones similar to the Monk one in design.
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• We are discussing altering the weapon proficiencies, perhaps to simple weapons and weapons from the "close" fighter weapon group.
The "close" weapon group includes the three shields. So the brawler will be proficient with shields as weapons but not armour.
The easy fix: let the brawler use a shield. Letting them choose to boost their AC but a few points should help the class tank.Plus it totally makes it easier to build a brawler Captain America.
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About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
My suggestion is a pumped up Awesome Blow. Essentially it is just Awesome Blow, but the brawler is considered one size category larger and is automatically under the effect of a True Strike spell.
Truly Awesome Blow
As a standard action, the brawler may perform an awesome blow combat maneuver. The brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of this maneuver and gains a +20 insight bonus to her roll. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet, plus and additional 5 feet for every 5 that the roll exceeds the opponents CMD, in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage for every 10' the opponent was knocked back, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
So with a 20 BAB, +10 Str, +5 enhancement and an Enlarge Person the brawler could knock back a huge size creature with a CMB of +57. The brawler would be limited to only one attack a round like this, but it would almost definitely hit.
I was thinking of something to add to this discussion, but I'm really liking this idea.
I'd change it to Two Sizes larger, so they could awesome blow huge creatures.
Another option:
Immense Stature
At 20th level, the brawler gains many benefits of being two sizes larger. They gain a +8 size bonus to CMB & CMD, +10' reach, the ability to qualify for feats with size requirements larger than medium, 8 x carrying capacity, and the ability to wield weapons of up to 2 size categories larger as though they were that size.
This would roughly do what Truly Awesome Blow does above, but is more versatile and doesn't add such a huge bonus.
About the brawler capstone ability...
While I'm surprised that people aren't liking awesome blow as the brawler capstone (as normally you can only select this if you're Large, and have a very high Str and two specific feats), we're looking at replacing it with something else. Any suggestions for this? Compare to the fighter and monk capstones for the level of power we're talking about.
My suggestion is a pumped up Awesome Blow. Essentially it is just Awesome Blow, but the brawler is considered one size category larger and is automatically under the effect of a True Strike spell.
Truly Awesome Blow
As a standard action, the brawler may perform an awesome blow combat maneuver. The brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of this maneuver and gains a +20 insight bonus to her roll. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet, plus and additional 5 feet for every 5 that the roll exceeds the opponents CMD, in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage for every 10' the opponent was knocked back, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle.
So with a 20 BAB, +10 Str, +5 enhancement and an Enlarge Person the brawler could knock back a huge size creature with a CMB of +57. The brawler would be limited to only one attack a round like this, but it would almost definitely hit.
I was thinking of something to add to this discussion, but I'm really liking this idea.
I'd change it to Two Sizes larger, so they could awesome blow huge creatures.
Another option:
Immense Stature
At 20th level, the brawler gains many benefits of being two sizes larger. They gain a +8 size bonus to CMB & CMD, +10' reach, the ability to qualify for feats with size requirements larger than medium, 8 x carrying capacity, and the ability to wield weapons of up to 2 size categories larger as though they were that size.This would roughly do what Truly Awesome Blow does above, but is more versatile and doesn't add such a huge bonus.
You are thinking of 3.5. In Pathfinder being huge only gives you a +2 bonus. I was just giving large as a +1 and then counted on the fact that you can cast Enlarge Person and get an increase to huge that way. You can find the size rules here.
If people really think that a +20 insight bonus (the same as you get from a 1st level spell) is too much, you can always limit the number of times of day it can be used. Honestly I don't think that would hurt too much because if you really want to do damage you would do a full attack. So you would only need this ability for an attack after a move or when you really want to push an enemy around. Most likely you are going to move in with an Awesome Blow, then start trading full attacks.
Edit: If you incorporate what Tels suggested you can just impose a -5 penalty for every size category larger a creature is and that would cut down on the bonus quite a bit while giving you a chance of pushing back even a colossal creature.
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Okay, I've been reading these posts and I really have to ask how many people have actually played characters above 12th level? Because the answer appears to be "zero".
Action economy is super important at high levels. A typical fight at level 13 is probably only going to last 3-5 rounds(and this acts like a limit the higher level you get - you are not realistically going to see 8 round fights at level 20), you can't waste a turn on martial maneuvers - either you need to close distance, or you need to be doing damage. The only time I can imagine using martial maneuvers at that level is if my character starts within one move action of the enemy and all I'm giving up is a single attack(although the people arguing for rocket punch style aren't going to want to do that).
Yes action economy is important at high levels. Which is why it gets better as you go up in levels. Now, if they could reduce it another time to one feat as an immediate action, 2 as a swift, or 3 as a standard it would be better, but it still is amazing.
I would like there to be something like 3+1/2level or higher of STR/DEX+1/2 level or just equal to level also, as I think it might be a bit of a problem if you don't know how long the day will be.
At 20th level, the brawler gains many benefits of being two sizes larger. They gain a +8 size bonus to CMB & CMD, +10' reach, the ability to qualify for feats with size requirements larger than medium, 8 x carrying capacity, and the ability to wield weapons of up to 2 size categories larger as though they were that size.
I think this would be awesome, as long as it improved your unarmed strike damage by 2 size categories as well, for brawlers with brawling armor and unarmed strikes.
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not really a mechanical suggestion but now that the pool of "flurryable weapons" is simple + close rather than monk weapons i would like it if it was renamed "Pummel"
^THIS!! *so* This!
While I love the idea of the Brawler's Flurry ... it sounds too much like "We just copied it wholesale". Please give it a more unique sounding name. It wouldn't hurt to put in there that for rules adjudications that it's equivalent to Flurry ...But, please, Please, please give it a name like "Pummel"! :D I would love to say that at the table!
