Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the Bloodrager. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
The following updates apply to the Bloodrager.
• Add Spellcraft to the list of Bloodrager class skills.
• On the Bloodrager table, the bloodline power gained at 3rd level should be moved to 4th level to match the individual bloodline entries.
• At 4th level, the Bloodrager gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.
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Wow, what an awesome class.
No wait, I can't download the test packet to even see what the class is like. Lol, I wonder how bad the network is tied up, 3 hours and the download is still unavailable. Actually I should apologize to you network administrator, he probable pulling his hair out right not.
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Sorry for the last post I made. It was meant to be a lighthearted joke.
Anyway I am in the middle of character creation now, it's taking awhile since I making him 10th level in order to experience how the class dose with high level play. I've noticed some small things that have me concerned (I do realized that I have to actually play him to see if my concerns are justified), but I though it's worth mentioning.
The class is MAD (Multi-ability dependent): I was worried about that, we need Strength Constitution, and Charisma. But due to our moderate AC and low reflex we still need a good Dex, and due to our low Will save we need at least a 12 in wisdom (at least we get a bonus in bloodrage).
Casting spells while raging seems counter productive. Sure some of the Magus touch based spells would hurt due to our high BAB, but we have a low number of spells know, so I'm torn between simple buffing before battle or trying to cast while raging. Buffing is winning.
On the plus side the Bloodline powers seem cool, and a few look really powerful on a d10HD full BAB class.
Side not, why the magus spell list (some of the non touch based offensive spell seem almost pointless)?
First off: My favourite class here, great job, love the flavourful raging.
The first problem I've seen is that some people are confused if you can cast spells outside of Bloodrage. I believe you can from the wording, but a sentence to make that explicit would not go amiss for something so important.
A few of the powers mention they are active during a bloodrage, and others lack this text (see claws vs tail in the draconic bloodline). I first thought this meant that the features lacking this were active outside of bloodrage, but other text seems to contradict this. If in-bloodrage-only is the default, I think you should avoid mentioning it where possible to avoid this confusion.
i've only read through the book once so far... my first impression of the bloodrager was "yay, a full BAB arcane caster". in a cursory reading there wasn't any big concerns- a few questions though:
- the first paragraph of the "spells" section sounds like they cast like any other caster, but the last line of paragraph 3 sounds like they can only cast during bloodrage... which is correct? is the line in para3 supposed to just reinforce what's stated in "Blood Casting"
- how would the dragon disciple's 'blood of dragons' ability interact with the draconic "bloodrager bloodline" (and would they be required to take that for the PrC)?
- the elemental 'bloodrager bloodline' grants the 15th level sorc bloodlines movement ability at only 8th level... is that intentional or was it placed in the wrong slot?
Can a bloodrager use bloodlines other then the ones listed in their class entry?
I don't think so. Bloodrage Bloodlines work differently than sorcerer bloodlines, even if they share names. It would be like a Warpriest taking a Domain instead of a blessing.
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Wow. A 4th-level aberrant bloodrager with enlarge person and a reach weapon has a reach of 30 feet.
05 Natural reach
05 Enlarge person
05 Abnormal reach
x2 Reach weapon
==
30 Foot reach
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Can a bloodrager use bloodlines other then the ones listed in their class entry?I don't think so. Bloodrage Bloodlines work differently than sorcerer bloodlines, even if they share names. It would be like a Warpriest taking a Domain instead of a blessing.
The problem is unlike the warpriest a Sorcerer's Bloodline and a Bloodrager's bloodline are both called bloodlines, where as the warpriest doesn't get abilities called domains.
There's nothing that says that they can't and they have the same name, so my assumption is that they can, and I'm asking to be proven wrong.
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Can a bloodrager use bloodlines other then the ones listed in their class entry?I don't think so. Bloodrage Bloodlines work differently than sorcerer bloodlines, even if they share names. It would be like a Warpriest taking a Domain instead of a blessing.The problem is unlike the warpriest a Sorcerer's Bloodline and a Bloodrager's bloodline are both called bloodlines, where as the warpriest doesn't get abilities called domains.
There's nothing that says that they can't and they have the same name, so my assumption is that they can, and I'm asking to be proven wrong.
I can see how that could be confusing.
Is it a typo that the bloodrager can be any alignment, since the barbarian has the "any nonlawful" for restriction. If this is indeed not a typo, I can see me going for at least a 1-level dip into paladin with a celestial bloodline paladin.
I was kinda hoping for a spell list of their own, similar to what the paladins and rangers got; instead of going with the magus spell list minus the last 2 spell levels. Hopefully that will get changed with the release version (same with the other classes that get another class's spell list minus 2-3 spell levels).
This is an amazingly cool class, even without the casting.
I especially like the Arcane Bloodline, it has this weird dichotomy of "Anti-caster, but also very spell dependent" and it's got some neat stuff.
Yeah, MADness is an issue, but considering you'll only really need 14 Cha by end-game since you'll probably never need to cast anything but buffs and touch attacks, the impact is diminished somewhat.
At least, at a glance. I haven't built one yet. Torn between this, an Investigator, and a Brawler for the character I'm going to make for an AP we're playing with these classes.
The problem is unlike the warpriest a Sorcerer's Bloodline and a Bloodrager's bloodline are both called bloodlines, where as the warpriest doesn't get abilities called domains.
There's nothing that says that they can't and they have the same name, so my assumption is that they can, and I'm asking to be proven wrong.
It doesn't work because the abilities don't line up. Bloodragers don't get bloodline arcana, for instance. And the bonus spells are at completely different levels, since they have different spell lists and spell progressions.
I'm a 17th level bloodrager and I take a primal bloodline (to pick a category that didn't appear in the playtest.)
What bonus spells do I get? What benefits do I get when I rage?
Arguing that because they are both 'bloodlines' is like trying to claim Monstrous Humanoids are also subject to charm person because they're still humanoids.
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Can a bloodrager use bloodlines other then the ones listed in their class entry?I don't think so. Bloodrage Bloodlines work differently than sorcerer bloodlines, even if they share names. It would be like a Warpriest taking a Domain instead of a blessing.The problem is unlike the warpriest a Sorcerer's Bloodline and a Bloodrager's bloodline are both called bloodlines, where as the warpriest doesn't get abilities called domains.
There's nothing that says that they can't and they have the same name, so my assumption is that they can, and I'm asking to be proven wrong.
I guess it just depends if you want to boost your Magical or combat ability :3
Same could go for a Sorcerer who maybe wants to boost his Physical Combat prowess.
Maybe label them Bloodline (rage) and Bloodline (eldritch) or something along those lines.
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Is it a typo that the bloodrager can be any alignment, since the barbarian has the "any nonlawful" for restriction. If this is indeed not a typo, I can see me going for at least a 1-level dip into paladin with a celestial bloodline paladin.
I was kinda hoping for a spell list of their own, similar to what the paladins and rangers got; instead of going with the magus spell list minus the last 2 spell levels. Hopefully that will get changed with the release version (same with the other classes that get another class's spell list minus 2-3 spell levels).
Not a typo. That's on purpose. Enjoy, and let us know what you think after some playtesting.
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Like the class ,don't like the name.
From reading only the arcane bloodline seems absolutely crazy, do you really get to choose these spells each time you rage and have them activated as a free action? Greater arcane Bloodrage is the big offender for me the rest looks cool.
Abyssal seems to be the next best option. Demonic Bulk is super strong for the level.I would at least switch Abyssal Resitances to 4th level and push Demonic Bulk to 8th.
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The problem is unlike the warpriest a Sorcerer's Bloodline and a Bloodrager's bloodline are both called bloodlines, where as the warpriest doesn't get abilities called domains.
There's nothing that says that they can't and they have the same name, so my assumption is that they can, and I'm asking to be proven wrong.
It doesn't work because the abilities don't line up. Bloodragers don't get bloodline arcana, for instance. And the bonus spells are at completely different levels, since they have different spell lists and spell progressions.
I'm a 17th level bloodrager and I take a primal bloodline (to pick a category that didn't appear in the playtest.)
What bonus spells do I get? What benefits do I get when I rage?
Arguing that because they are both 'bloodlines' is like trying to claim Monstrous Humanoids are also subject to charm person because they're still humanoids.
Some way to differentiate them from Sorcerer bloodlines in the Final product would be nice.
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I have the same question as Adjule: is it supposed to be open alignment, as oppose to any non-lawful (like a barbarian)?
It makes one question then why a barbarian would be stuck being non-lawful if a bloodrager can be.
Some way to differentiate them from Sorcerer bloodlines in the Final product would be nice.
I agree, I was just trying to answer the question.
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First prestige class question - does Dragon Disciple bloodline stacking apply to bloodrager bloodline level? I'm guessing the answer is yes. This may even be the specific reason that the bloodrager special is specifically called 'bloodline'.
I have the same question as Adjule: is it supposed to be open alignment, as oppose to any non-lawful (like a barbarian)?
It makes one question then why a barbarian would be stuck being non-lawful if a bloodrager can be.
I suspect the real answer is the Barbarian had a legacy limit.
But a flavorful answer is that a Barbarian rages by losing control in a way that a Lawful being cannot learn to do. While a Bloodrager is activating a domant power within themselves. For instance, a Devil-blooded Bloodrager should be allowed to be LE.
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Both thematically and mechanically, this class is great with a 1-level dip into Lore Oracle. This allows for rage-cycling, CHA to AC, and playing a Nethys-worshipping creator and destroyer of magic. For thematic stuff again, take Arcane bloodline. Additionally, are there any plans to modify Rage Prophet prerequisites to allow a bloodrager to use it?
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I've been asking for an Arcane 4 level martial class for awhile, so I am very excited about this class and look forward to the playtest. I'm not sure about double using the magus spell list, and I wonder if you really need uncanny dodge and damage reduction, and indomitable will given you get spells, but I'll wait and see how the play testing goes.
But I really like the concept. Good job.
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I've been asking for an Arcane 4 level martial class for awhile, so I am very excited about this class and look forward to the playtest. I'm not sure about double using the magus spell list, and I wonder if you really need uncanny dodge and damage reduction, and indomitable will given you get spells, but I'll wait and see how the play testing goes.
But I really like the concept. Good job.
I like Damage reduction, but I agree on uncanny dodge, it feels out of place.
Not a typo. That's on purpose. Enjoy, and let us know what you think after some playtesting.Is it a typo that the bloodrager can be any alignment, since the barbarian has the "any nonlawful" for restriction. If this is indeed not a typo, I can see me going for at least a 1-level dip into paladin with a celestial bloodline paladin.
I was kinda hoping for a spell list of their own, similar to what the paladins and rangers got; instead of going with the magus spell list minus the last 2 spell levels. Hopefully that will get changed with the release version (same with the other classes that get another class's spell list minus 2-3 spell levels).
Very good news indeed. I really like this class, as barbarian is one of my more favorite classes. A couple questions:
1) Since I have never done one of these playtests, is it usually frowned upon to create multiclass characters?
2) Would a bloodrager be able to use their powers while under the effects of the skald's Raging Song ability? (That question would probably be best suited for the skald discussion one) Or would they only be able to use the skald's rage powers?
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I like Damage reduction, but I agree on uncanny dodge, it feels out of place.I've been asking for an Arcane 4 level martial class for awhile, so I am very excited about this class and look forward to the playtest. I'm not sure about double using the magus spell list, and I wonder if you really need uncanny dodge and damage reduction, and indomitable will given you get spells, but I'll wait and see how the play testing goes.
But I really like the concept. Good job.
I just think when you are already getting spells at that point, DR on top might outshine the base Barbarian a bit.
I almost wish that Bloodrage added a bonus to Charisma instead of Constitution, and got bonus round from Charisma as well. It would mean much less MAD.
Either that, or their spellcasting could be based on Constitution instead of Charisma (kinda like the scarred witch doctor). I was kinda hoping for that.
Very good news indeed. I really like this class, as barbarian is one of my more favorite classes. A couple questions:
1) Since I have never done one of these playtests, is it usually frowned upon to create multiclass characters?
2) Would a bloodrager be able to use their powers while under the effects of the skald's Raging Song ability? (That question would probably be best suited for the skald discussion one) Or would they only be able to use the skald's rage powers?
1- Nope we like to see a good variety of playtest feedback.
2- Not right now, but it is something to take look out in the second round of development. I will definitely put that observation on the list of things to consider.
The bloodrager having spells at all already outshines the base barbarian, ciretose. Though granted we shouldn't be trying to widen the gap.
I almost wish that Bloodrage added a bonus to Charisma instead of Constitution, and got bonus round from Charisma as well. It would mean much less MAD.Either that, or their spellcasting could be based on Constitution instead of Charisma (kinda like the scarred witch doctor). I was kinda hoping for that.
This seems like an interesting suggestion, but being able to dump Cha entirely feels like simply too significant of a power boost. Unless they begin losing power elsewhere, the Cha bonus during rage would be more reasonable. This is definitely one of the more MAD classes though. I don't think having those are always a bad thing, it can make for interesting trade-offs (and they only need 14 Cha to cast their highest level spells. They could start with 11 Cha, and use their stat-up on it at 4th, 8th, 12th, and never be unable to cast their top level spells. If they got a headband+2Cha, they could sit even lower). I imagine most will decide to avoid offensive spells with DCs to focus on martial stats and keep Cha at an 'acceptable' level. Even stuff like the Abberation bloodline's Staggering Strike is con-based.
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I almost wish that Bloodrage added a bonus to Charisma instead of Constitution, and got bonus round from Charisma as well. It would mean much less MAD.
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This seems like an interesting suggestion, but being able to dump Cha entirely feels like simply too significant of a power boost. Unless they begin losing power elsewhere, the Cha bonus during rage would be more reasonable. This is definitely one of the more MAD classes though. I don't think having those are always a bad thing, it can make for interesting trade-offs (and they only need 14 Cha to cast their highest level spells. They could start with 11 Cha, and use their stat-up on it at 4th, 8th, 12th, and never be unable to cast their top level spells. If they got a headband+2Cha, they could sit even lower). I imagine most will decide to avoid offensive spells with DCs to focus on martial stats and keep Cha at an 'acceptable' level. Even stuff like the Abberation bloodline's Staggering Strike is con-based.I almost wish that Bloodrage added a bonus to Charisma instead of Constitution, and got bonus round from Charisma as well. It would mean much less MAD.Either that, or their spellcasting could be based on Constitution instead of Charisma (kinda like the scarred witch doctor). I was kinda hoping for that.
A bonus to Charisma While raging would also increase spell DC's and make some Magus spells more viable. This would make the class more versatile overall. Sometimes I wish developers give more insight to their design choices, am I missing something?
Yeah, I see most people going for minimum Cha to cast their spells, and focusing more on martial prowess over going for offensive spells that require saving throws. Although, why have it be a spellcasting class?
I need to break open my UM book to check out the Magus spell list, as I have never had to bother since I had no interest in the magus.
I like the base core – tainted blood, manifesting in the rage. Closest representation of the warp spasm that you can likely get. Comparison against Barbarian is a trade off of rage powers for the bloodline powers and some spells.
I'm not too keen on the magus spell list in it's entirety. There are a lot of utility spells (unseen servant, silent image, etc) that don't fit the idea of a rage driven sorcerer. Would be good to see some of the bard's emotive spells come into the list (ala cause fear, etc).
There seems to be a discrepancy between the table and the Bloodline Powers descriptions: The table lists the first Bloodline Power at 3rd level, but the descriptions all have the first power at 1st (which I assume is supposed to correspond with the "Bloodrage" ability, but maybe Bloodrage and Bloodline Power should both be listed?), and the second power at 4th level.
Presumably, the second Bloodline Power was moved to 3rd level so as not to leave a "gap" level, since the casting starts at 4th, but one or the other should be changed.
EDIT: Maybe instead of Bloodline Power they should be listed as Bloodrage Power/Feat/Spell/Etc?
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I like what I've read about the class so far. I'm cfonsidering taking a couple lvs in bloodrager for my dragon style, dragon disciple. Am I correct in assuming I will need to take 4 levels in bloodrager to qualify for the "spontaneous arcane casting" bit?
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I like what I've read about the class so far. I'm cfonsidering taking a couple lvs in bloodrager for my dragon style, dragon disciple. Am I correct in assuming I will need to take 4 levels in bloodrager to qualify for the "spontaneous arcane casting" bit?
It looks to be so, yes. At least 4 levels of bloodrager to take the Dragon Disciple prestige class.
- how would the dragon disciple's 'blood of dragons' ability interact with the draconic "bloodrager bloodline" (and would they be required to take that for the PrC)?
This! Want to try one of these out, but I want to understand how this would work, if at all.
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Bloodrager - Very strong! Probably the strongest of all the new classes in the playtest. It would be really scary to see one of these bearing down on the party. Like a barb on magical crack.
Abberrant bloodline: Staggering Strike! Yowza! It can be really easy to get critical hits. Staggered is a horrifying condition too. This seems very powerful.
Abyssal: Really scary offensive output capable here, especially with reach.
Arcane: Jeez these buff spells are damned, damned good. Guess it's in line with your most optimised magus though.
Elemental and Fey and Infernal: Actually noticeably weaker in comparison to the other bloodlines.
I almost think that bloodrager makes barb redundant. I mean barb's uncanny dodge is nice but you don't need +1 hp per level if you have sorceror defensive spells up. DR 2 doesn't see much benefit in pfs play either. Worried about this one, actually. Very powerful.
I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.
So this is the Bloodrager hype train? I want to get on. This class looks amazing. The level 4 abilites are great in almost every bloodline, and the goodies just keep coming.
I liked Rage Powers, but I mean dang.
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A bonus to Charisma While raging would also increase spell DC's and make some Magus spells more viable. This would make the class more versatile overall.
If bloodraging is the the character's blood surging with arcane
power, it would make sense that the character would glow with charisma while raging.So the Bloodrager can only cast while in bloodrage, right? Why is this unclear to me?
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Bloodrager - Very strong! Probably the strongest of all the new classes in the playtest. It would be really scary to see one of these bearing down on the party. Like a barb on magical crack.
Abberrant bloodline: Staggering Strike! Yowza! It can be really easy to get critical hits. Staggered is a horrifying condition too. This seems very powerful.
Abyssal: Really scary offensive output capable here, especially with reach.
Arcane: Jeez these buff spells are damned, damned good. Guess it's in line with your most optimised magus though.
Elemental and Fey and Infernal: Actually noticeably weaker in comparison to the other bloodlines.I almost think that bloodrager makes barb redundant. I mean barb's uncanny dodge is nice but you don't need +1 hp per level if you have sorceror defensive spells up. DR 2 doesn't see much benefit in pfs play either. Worried about this one, actually. Very powerful.
Bloodragers should lose uncanny and improved uncanny dodge, and maybe be dropped to 2 skill points per level (they have so few class skills anyway). That would give Barbarians something to compensate. But, I really think bloodragers should get some sort of bonus to Charisma while raging.