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Hmm I think my main question before building a character is since bloodrage counts as rage for feat prerequisites, is it supposed to count as raging for what the feats do?
Does Extra Rage give more bloodrage? or can you somehow get it with no effect lol
I think the first is what was intended, but it might need a better clarification.
Personally I think you should just give a bloodrager the rage ability as a barbarian of his level, and just have bloodrage be a separate ability that just happens to occur whenever you rage.
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This is by far my favorite of the new classes. Very cool, very thematic, very synergetic.
I agree with people that the bloodlines are not balanced. Not to say options like these (domains, sorcerer bloodlines, curses / mysteries) are always completely balanced anyway. But as cool as an elemental bloodrager might sound, I don't see myself ever picking it over Aberrant, Arcane, or Destined. Though 70ft base speed is pretty neat for level 8 Fire Bloodragers.
I LOVE the idea people have posted of making bloodrage +Str/Cha instead of +Str/Con. I know 'blood' mechanically could be charisma or constitution depending on which aspects you're looking at, but if you want to combine the fury of a barbarian with the passion of a sorcerer into a mechanic like bloodrage, I think strength and charisma is more fitting. It would increase your melee power and your spells' punch.
However, it would also encourage people to dump charisma even more than has been discussed in this thread. I can see completely avoiding anything with a DC and taking a 12 Charisma for this class with no worries. And this is supposed to be half-sorcerer, rememeber?
Maybe switching the bloodrage powers to be more based off charisma (abyssal's demonic aura, draconic's breath weapon, and others like these are all constitution based). This would help make charisma seem worth it rather than minimal-investment-only. Making the rounds per day based off charisma would definitely help; if this is truly a BLOODrage, being the focused, primal energies of your BLOODline, charisma makes sense.
Do the bloodline powers stack with the Tieflings Fiendish sorcery, or is it only if they have Sorcerer bloodlines?
I also want to add I am multiclassing this with a damage focused Monk...its going really well so far.
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I love the bloodrager. I have wanted a full BaB 4 spell lvl class for a long time.
But the more I play around with it the more I can not help but feel it makes the Barbarian useless for anything more then flavor reasons. (meaning does not want/hates magic.) Now not to say flavor reasons are not valid. But my personal opinion is that it should not void its parent class completely for all other reasons but flavor.
I think it just gets to much of whats good from Barbarian without losing enough. What I mean is it loses some hp (d10 DD) trap sense (lets be honest its a weak ability.) and rage powers (but most bloodlines are superior anyway.)
So my suggestion is to perhaps think about taking away a bit more of the Barb stuff? Here is a few of my thoughts on it.
Weaker form of rage. +2 +4 +6 rather then +4 +6 +8
Drop ether uncanny dodge or fast movement.
DR stopping at 3/- rather then 5
Simple weapon pref and then added pref from bloodlines (might be to big of a pain in the back side at this point.)
Light armor with "If the bloodrager gains med armor pref they can then cast in med armor without ASF"
In no way am I saying do ALL of those. They are just thoughts I have on the topic. But its only one mans opinion. So you know take it with a grain of salt.
Now, while Blood Rage counts as Rage for the purposes of feats, can you use it to qualify for Extra Rage Powers and acquire Rage Powers as a Barbarian?
My gut says yes, but I bet you'll tell me no, which is a shame, because a feat tax to be Even More Demony/Angely/Beasty is something I'll happily pay just for the totem powers.
A bloodrager doesn't get the rage power class feature, so they cannot take the extra rage power feat.
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I think Rage Powers are being underestimated here, especially Beast Totem and the Superstitious line.
Maybe I could see it if the Bloodrager got 6 level casting from a good spell list, but the Magus spell list is mediocre as-is for anything but Shocking Grasp Spellstrikes and a few other tricks, and trimming it down to 4 levels, no Cantrips, and an enforced Cha investment puts it on par with Rage Powers at best in conjunction with Bloodline abilities.
I think Rage Powers are being underestimated here, especially Beast Totem and the Superstitious line.
Maybe I could see it if the Bloodrager got 6 level casting from a good spell list, but the Magus spell list is mediocre as-is for anything but Shocking Grasp Spellstrikes and a few other tricks, and trimming it down to 4 levels, no Cantrips, and an enforced Cha investment puts it on par with Rage Powers at best in conjunction with Bloodline abilities.
I'd agree here, the Bloodrager is strong class no doubt, but so is the Barbarian. "Pounce" and "Come and Get Me". Also while the Bloodragers self-buffs are awesome, there might be a nice
One could also compare the Bloodrager to the Paladin, replacing Smite with Rage and LoH+awesome saves with Bloodline Powers.IMO it would be really awesome and flavorful, if there was a bloodline focussing on Shapechanging during Rage(earlier than Arcane).
I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.
Bloodline Abilities are comparable to Rage Powers.
Spellcasting is all sorts of superior to Trap Sense.It totally obsoletes the Barb. ;)
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My real concern is how is this class unique enough to be it's own class and not a Barb archetype? Aside from the differences I showed above, everything else between Barb and Bloodrager is the same.
I think the Bloodlines are in depth enough, and the casting is a big enough change to justify it, if only just.
It's in a much better place than some that are basically just a pre-built multiclass of its two constituent parts *cough*Warpriest*cough*.
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I guess my question is, why are we supposed to get excited about turning into a Small elemental at level 16, which a sorcerer can do at level 8...
This, this, a thousand times this.
This is why I will always argue for unique spell lists for classes like this.
Unique spell lists use up too much ink.
I disagree. Pounce is very over valued around here. Why? Because unless you have a DM that makes most battle in a large open area with few obstructions you will get little use out of it. But if you have good DM that uses difficult terrain, corners, and even minor tactical positioning well then its a nice tool at best. But you will be lucky if you get once pounce an encounter. VERY lucky.
More so is the fact that why its over valued so much is just that Barb can't do much else useful if they can't get in a full attack. Bloodrager can. If he needs to use a turn to get set up big deal. He can buff, Team buff (with haste if there is no other haste caster in the group.) scorching ray a priority target, Use bladed dash for great positioning (Move+attack+another move.)
Or there is a bloodline that gives +5 reach. Enlarge + reach weapon + Lunge + said bloodline ability. Who the heck needs pounce with that reach? (Though I question if lunge can stack with it. In not then its still a free lunge feat without the AC hit.)
I guess my question is, why are we supposed to get excited about turning into a Small elemental at level 16, which a sorcerer can do at level 8...This, this, a thousand times this.
This is why I will always argue for unique spell lists for classes like this.
Unique spell lists take up ink, like said, but I do think there can be a solution. First, still use magus spell list as-is - they can pick worthwhile spells from it and ignore the rest.
Secondly, the change, - make them gain the spells 'when they gain a new spell level' or 'x levels after they gain a new spell level' and then give them spells which will be of that level, regardless of their usual level. E.g, an Elemental Bloodrager might get Elemental Body II or III as a 4th level spell, but all other Bloodragers would be limited to Elemental Body I, as is present on the Magus spell list.
This is my favourite class from the book so far. Looking forward to trying it out somewhere...
On a side note I found a typo:
Angelic Protection (Su): At 12th level, you gain a +4
defection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus to on
saving throws against attacks made or effects created
by evil creatures, and you are effected as if subject to a
protection from evil spell. This effect cannot be dispelled.
I am now also tempted to make a full barbarian with a 1 level dip in Wizard. lol
I disagree. Pounce is very over valued around here. Why? Because unless you have a DM that makes most battle in a large open area with few obstructions you will get little use out of it. But if you have good DM that uses difficult terrain, corners, and even minor tactical positioning well then its a nice tool at best. But you will be lucky if you get once pounce an encounter. VERY lucky.
You only NEED one an encounter. And difficult terrain isn't as much of an issue with any sort of party support (loves me some Air Walk), a cheap magic item (Feather Step Slippers), or some Feat investment (IUS and Dragon Style...fixes the charging through allies bit too =)).
Maybe you won't get to use it on every enemy, but over time you can count how much damage you rack up because of it.
Fighter: "Welp, I killed that guy, better waddle over here and do one attack so I can full attack next round."
Barbarian: "Welp, he's dead. CHAAAARGE!!!! *SMASHSMASHSMASHCHOMP*"
Even if the Barbarian parrots the Fighter 1 in 5 times, that's still 4 in 5 times he's ripped another enemy a new a#$+!*# before the Fighter can scratch him.
Insert any other martial class focused on melee combat in the Fighter position if you like.
Save for your example is assumes WAY to much. Its more like CHARGE!....if there is an enemy in a straight line from me, no object is in the way, No ally or enemy in the way, No one in the space closes to the target, and have line of sight.
Yeah if the heavens aline its nice to have. But if that's happening more then rarely your DM is taking it easy on you. In many cases reach + lunge will get you full attacks more often.
This is just more of the typical "works so wonderfully on paper but not in practice" problems that are common when theory crafting.
Unique spell lists use up too much ink.
That's the worst excuse ever, IMO.
Rangers don't share the Druid list because the lists are balanced differently.
Ditto Paladins and the Cleric list.
Ditto Magi and the Sor/Wiz list.
Etc.
Etc.
If you're going to have a brand new take on a spell list, then it needs to be brand new. The Magus list isn't balanced for 4th-level-maximum casting, and it shouldn't be.
Save for your example is assumes WAY to much. Its more like CHARGE!....if there is an enemy in a straight line from me, no object is in the way, No ally or enemy in the way, No one in the space closes to the target, and have line of sight.
Yeah if the heavens aline its nice to have. But if that's happening more then rarely your DM is taking it easy on you. In many cases reach + lunge will get you full attacks more often.
This is just more of the typical "works so wonderfully on paper but not in practice" problems that are common when theory crafting.
You seem to overestimate how often there is no charge line to ANY enemy on the field.
And considering that all of this is coming from me playing a level 14 Barbarian currently, I scoff at the fact that you assume I'm theorycrafting.
I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.It is more of a toe stepping question. Do we really need damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc...when we are getting 4 levels of arcane spells and bloodline like powers?
Yeah it feels to me like many are not really looking at reality. Most rage powers are... bad. The two lines that are good one is very over valued and the other. Well I will miss the save boost but it is easily trumped by the bloodline powers.
We are talking things like flight at low lvls, Action free powerful buffs (haste and displacement.), free reach boost and so on. This easily trumps rage powers.
4 lvls arcane casting is no contest versus the other Barb abilities.
I don't think it obsoletes the Barbarian. Because the Barbarian has two words that give him an edge: Rage Powers.It is more of a toe stepping question. Do we really need damage reduction, uncanny dodge, etc...when we are getting 4 levels of arcane spells and bloodline like powers?
I agree here that I don't think we need them. Personally, I would love to see these dropped for even stronger bloodline manifestation, but I can understand why this isn't the case. At a mechanical level, these abilities allow the Bloodrager to more confidently be in melee, medium armor and d10hp is nice, but for a barb-based class, I can understand why they want 'more durability'.
Nix Dr/- and the uncanny dodge and it looks good. Kind of an arcane take on the pally/ranger. I like the concept, the execution just shoved too much down one classes throat, maybe rebalance some of the bloodlines and presto chango you have a great, albeit balanced, class.
I can see why they used the magus spell list. Its an arcane spell list made for a melee mage. It focuses mostly on buffs and save free spells. So it fits the bill.
Still I really do wish bloodrager would get Blistering Invective. This spell would fit the idea so well IMO. I would also (if it was my call.) Make bladed dash a lvl 1 spell and greater bladed dash lvl 4. Ohh well can't have everything.
You don't have Spell Combat (or some other similar feature) to mesh your casting with your melee-ness though.
Which kinda sucks. You also lose out on most of the utility spells by having the magus spell list. So you have combat focused spells on a class that doesn't get good at casting spells in combat.
I feel they will mostly get long-duration/utility spells, such as:
Mount, Shield, Enlarge Person, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Haste, Phantom Steed, Sleet Storm, Dimension Door, Stoneskin,
Looks interesting ...
+1 on wanting to see some Bloodrager bloodlines/heritages which stem from non-Core Sorcerer bloodlines.
For example, what could be done with the Starsoul, Boreal, or Aquatic bloodlines from the APG? Or the Rakshasa or Efreeti bloodlines from UM? And that doesn't even get into the ones found in the ARG, Orcs of Golarion, the Dragon Empires Primer, Blood of Fiends, Blood of Angels, etc.
Not to mention the Wildblooded versions (of which we still don't have enough to cover all the newer bloodlines).
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You don't have Spell Combat (or some other similar feature) to mesh your casting with your melee-ness though.
Which kinda sucks. You also lose out on most of the utility spells by having the magus spell list. So you have combat focused spells on a class that doesn't get good at casting spells in combat.
The thing is the magus spell list isn't even that focused on their ability to mesh touch spells with an attack. The number of spells that work with it is low. So ignore shocking grasp and frigid touch (vampiric touch is still more then worth having.)I fail to see how that is a big deal.
What do you gain over no spell list? MASSIVE flexibility. Ranged options when you have no other choice, Burning hands when you run into a
swarm, Infernal healing and vampirc touch for self sustainability if things go horribly wrong, -Invisibility-, most of the best buffs a melee could want, movement/teleport options.
Honestly it covers every weakness melee have. Flying monsters, Swarms, uselessness in any situation that isn't "hit thing", Keeping yourself alive if something happens to the casters or things just go very wrong.
I don;t understand how people can complain about this spell list.
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I don;t understand how people can complain about this spell list.
I initially complained about it being a gimped spell list, then I went and looked at the Pal and Rng's spell lists. The Magus 4's are mostly sor/wiz 4's with a few 5's thrown in for good measure. Pal and Rng 4's are mostly clr 4's or drd 5's. Yeah I would like to see some more sor/wiz 5's in the level 4 tier, but that's more of a problem of the narrow narrow Magus focus than a design problem with the Bloodrager.
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A suggestion for the DT: Drop Damage Reduction and Uncanny Dodge, and pick up Spellstrike.
This class is begging to Spellstrike.
I'll say I'm a fan of the bloodrager. Heck, even WITHOUT the spells this is a very cool class. The various bloodline powers are very interesting & powerful (I'm looking at you arcane& aberrant). I do kinda hope they come out with a "controlled rage" archetype (I'm fond of dex-builds) but otherwise this is an interesting class that is somewhat limited by it's MAD-ness. I'll test out a few builds eventually.
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A suggestion for the DT: Drop Damage Reduction and Uncanny Dodge, and pick up Spellstrike.
This class is begging to Spellstrike.
Then it would overshadow Magus. I wouldn't mind a limited use ability to get a free quicken under certain circumstances. But its hardly a must.
Hmmm... I don't see anything wrong with it... except maybe that the spells seem kinda overshadowed by the rest. How about increasing the spells per day by 2 for each level?
I don;t understand how people can complain about this spell list.
The core list is fine, but there's a lot of stuff showing up at 4th level spells that is far too late. If they had a custom spell list, moving elemental body I to 3rd and elemental body II to 4th would be an obvious place to start. Greater Bladed Dash could be moved to 4th. It would be nice if they got Force Wall. Are these changes valuable enough to rewrite the spell list? Maybe not.
What if the bloodlines specified that specific spells dropped in level? For instance, the elemental bloodline could specify that elemental body spells are one spell level lower.
Also, since they lack spell combat, how about some free Quicken Spell uses? I like that many of their spells don't have saves, but when I see fireball on the Magus list, I get concerned that some of those save DCs are going to be so sadly low. Maybe they could have an energy pool that let them quicken low level spells or boost save DCs?
Then it would overshadow Magus. I wouldn't mind a limited use ability to get a free quicken under certain circumstances. But its hardly a must.A suggestion for the DT: Drop Damage Reduction and Uncanny Dodge, and pick up Spellstrike.
This class is begging to Spellstrike.
I disagree. Even sharing spell lists and that one ability, the classes would remain vastly different in function and feel. (Kind of the same difference between Wizard and Sorcerer, Magus being more like the Wizard and Bloodrager being more like the Sorcerer.)
Besides, it currently feels too much like a Core Barbarian with spells tacked on as an after-thought. It needs something to make it feel a little more unique, and a different style of Spellstriker would do it methinks.
I really find that the mad-ness is being over stated. I just start with 2 less STR then I would on a barb. That +1 to hit and +2 damage is nothing next to say having arcane strike, Great buffs, and bloodline powers.
Going back to what I said in my last post an idea came to mind. Ditch all the barb stuff (DR, Fast movement. and UD) and on the lvls where he would have gotten DR give him 1/day use of a quicken ability.
This quicken ability does not adjust the spell lvl but instead uses a number of rage rounds equal to the spells lvl.
Likely far to late at this point for such suggestions but the idea came to me and I loved it.
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just a question but the Fey bloodline has Confusing critical, confusing someone when you critical them. confuse says that a confused target always attacks someone of they attack them in that turn. doesn't this make it useless? unless i am misunderstanding this.That's not useless. In the worst case, you get attacked when you would have been attacked anyway. But there are plenty of cases where you're happy to get attacked because you have better armor and HP than the rogue you're flanking with who would have been attacked instead. Or because the target is a spellcaster and would have done something worse than attack.
Basically, anything that keeps your opponent from making intelligent decisions is a net win for you.
Confusion say that the confused creature attack anyone that attack them, but that apply to a confused creature. As the critical is what apply the confused condition to the target he wasn't confused when you attacked him. So, if you don't make further attacks after confusing him he choose a random action from the confusion table.
Reading it in any other way would always result in a confused creature attacking the person that caused his confused state, regardless from the confusion state origin.
A confusion spell is an attack, a confusion bomb is an attack and so on.
I've been asking for an Arcane 4 level martial class for awhile, so I am very excited about this class and look forward to the playtest. I'm not sure about double using the magus spell list, and I wonder if you really need uncanny dodge and damage reduction, and indomitable will given you get spells, but I'll wait and see how the play testing goes.
But I really like the concept. Good job.
I think I'd like this better if they could cast when not raging, and raging simply made their offensive spellcasting stronger.
Am I reading this right? They can only cast when raging? They have to burn rage rounds for morning buffs?
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capstone level 20 power - burning bush....Gotta remove that one for the Verdant bloodline. :pMeh I got Jipped on that one, every time I get angry I just turn into a bush. An angry bush. But still just a bush.
I can build Flaming Carrot in Pathfinder? {boggles, makes notes on possible "Zen Stupidity" mechanics}
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PROBLEMATIC TEXT:
The total number of rounds of bloodrage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours need not be consecutive.
There is already a lot of people that think that a spellcaster can cast all his spells, rest 8 hours and then get all his spell back and the text about spellcaster and recovering spells is fairly clear.
Unless the intention is really to have the bloodrager recover all his rounds of bloodrage more than once/day the text cited above should be changed.
And if the intention is to allow him to recover his bloodrage rounds more than once/day that should stated very clearly in the class ability description.
PROBLEMATIC TEXT:
The total number of rounds of bloodrage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours need not be consecutive.There is already a lot of people that think that a spellcaster can cast all his spells, rest 8 hours and then get all his spell back and the text about spellcaster and recovering spells is fairly clear.
Unless the intention is really to have the bloodrager recover all his rounds of bloodrage more than once/day the text cited above should be changed.
And if the intention is to allow him to recover his bloodrage rounds more than once/day that should stated very clearly in the class ability description.
Possibly, but I think all of these should be interpreted as 'recovering at some arbitrary point once in a twenty-four hour period after 8 hours of rest' and most people have got used to that. The whole day/rest thing should be clarified for newer players, honestly.
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I don't think comparing the 4 level spells to the absolute best two rage power lines is so smart a thing to do...It'll give you skewed results. On average, the bloodrageline abilities are stronger than the average rage power.
Do they still count as spellcasters when not raging?
Can they use scrolls? when raging? when not?
Can they use their spells during magic item creation?
"not angry enough to use magic. TOO ANGRY TO READ SCROLL! TOO ANGRY TO BREW POTION!"
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1: Yes:Do they still count as spellcasters when not raging?
Can they use scrolls? when raging? when not?
Can they use their spells during magic item creation?"not angry enough to use magic. TOO ANGRY TO READ SCROLL! TOO ANGRY TO BREW POTION!"
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a bloodrager gains the
ability to cast a small number of arcane spells drawn
from the magus spell list (see page 13 of Pathfinder RPG
Ultimate Magic). To learn or cast a spell, a bloodrager must
have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
He can cast spells he knows without preparing it ahead of
time. The saving throw DC against a bloodrager’s spell is
10 + the spell level + the bloodrager’s Charisma modifier.
2: Not when raging: Blood Casting only lets you cast your spells gained from bloodrager class during rage. Bloodrage still calls out " any ability that requires patience or concentration" as being unavailable during rage. Blood Casting supercedes a part of that
3: Why not? They can cast normally.
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Bloodragers can cast their spells in OR out of bloodrage. Jason Bulmahn stated such earlier in the thread. I am sure it is even updated in the OP.