Bloodrager Discussion


Class Discussion

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Evan Riggs wrote:


Pause: Alignment Any, no this should be more in tune with the barbarian, this class should not be allowed to be lawful, it is tapping into the primal nature of rage. and allowing you to cast during said rage. These is nothing that says this should be an honor bound character.

Uh huh, obviously you've never seen an angry paladin before.


Scavion wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Scavion wrote:
deuxhero wrote:

There is a very good reason for that: Bloodragers get a set (no mix-match) of 6 powers that are fixed from level 1, normal Barbarians get 10 (as well as pick up even more for a feat) and they aren't locked into a single path

Of course something you get 10 of is going to be less powerful than something you get 6 of.

Most of the powers in question were pretty poorly designed in the first place too (Most of those are only taken as a per-requisite) . Try comparing them to Pounce Totem, Superstitious, Come and Get Me ect.

I love how he specifies in his build challenge pick one or the other super amazing rage powers, but not both because that'd disprove my point despite most barbarians getting those rage powers.
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.
Pick a level. I'll build battle yah.

Level 10 is a great level to compare things. Is what is commonly used for comparision in the forum.


VM mercenario wrote:
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.

I'm kind of curious what you believe the ONE uber build is. Off the top of my head I can think of five: RAGELANCEPOUNCE, Come and Get Me Pouncers, Come and Get me Guarded, Bowbarians, Mounted Bowbarians.

Pounce is considered a staple because it allows melee classes to retain viability going into late level. This is something that a bloodrager as of yet does not have.


TarkXT wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.

I'm kind of curious what you believe the ONE uber build is. Off the top of my head I can think of five: RAGELANCEPOUNCE, Come and Get Me Pouncers, Come and Get me Guarded, Bowbarians, Mounted Bowbarians.

Pounce is considered a staple because it allows melee classes to retain viability going into late level. This is something that a bloodrager as of yet does not have.

16th Level Beastshape 4 Arcane Bloodline. Not that they get it anywhere soon enough.


Evan Riggs wrote:

ok my gripes and likes

as a class it has some perks and pause

Pause: Alignment Any, no this should be more in tune with the barbarian, this class should not be allowed to be lawful, it is tapping into the primal nature of rage. and allowing you to cast during said rage. These is nothing that says this should be an honor bound character.

Barbarian alignment requirement was INCREDIBLY stupid anyways. Know what one of the most consistent sterotype of cultures Barbarians are sterotypes of is? VERY strong adherance to tradition, honor and vows, THE defintion of "Lawful".

Why Paizo didn't drop it with Bard requirement (which was stupid too, but at least it didn't have every reason to be the opposite of what it was), I have no idea.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some of the bloodlines are a bit powerful, but then there are some that are a bit underwhelming.

Like the 1st celestial power - it's nice, but is only good against evil outsiders, and unless you're playing WotR or something similar, won't have a terrible impact.

But then again, they're going to address that.


I'm really looking forward to see how my arcane bloodline with moonlight stalker plays out. We just had the first session which didn't show a lot about what the classes can do.
But I always wanted to have a pc using moonlight stalker.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Even though it has been said many times before, I wish Jason Bulmahn would update the first post saying "Bloodragers are able to cast outsite of bloodrage" so people would stop saying that they can only cast while bloodraging.


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~Shepherd~ wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
yes and that all makes sense once you explain it, but what would pop into my head hearing that is some brutal gore imagery not magic. blood=herratige is kind of overtaken by blood=violence especially when mixed with "rage"
In the madness and rage, clarity can be found. Through this clarity, arcane might is unleashed in the wake of their destructive fury.

Remember Initiate -- Peace is a Lie.


TarkXT wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.

I'm kind of curious what you believe the ONE uber build is. Off the top of my head I can think of five: RAGELANCEPOUNCE, Come and Get Me Pouncers, Come and Get me Guarded, Bowbarians, Mounted Bowbarians.

Pounce is considered a staple because it allows melee classes to retain viability going into late level. This is something that a bloodrager as of yet does not have.

RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anymore, the devs faq'd mounted combat just to stop it, "your mount is charging but you're not" or something. There was a whole broouhaha about it at the time. Point is it doesn't work because the dev team says it doesn't work.

Bowbarian isn't much better than any other archer build. Mounted Bowbarian is pretty good because it's mounted archery and the barbarian can archetype to get a mount, but it has the same problems as any other mounted build.
I don't know what is a Come and Get Me Guarded, but Guarded Life is a very overrated power, and actually pretty useless.
The Uber build is Invulnerable Come and Get Me Pouncer with Spellbreaker.
Other good build you didn't mention are the Invulnerable Stalwart with his 23 DR/- and the Urban Come and Get Me Swashbuckler, a better swashbuckler than the playtest class.


Scavion wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Scavion wrote:
deuxhero wrote:

There is a very good reason for that: Bloodragers get a set (no mix-match) of 6 powers that are fixed from level 1, normal Barbarians get 10 (as well as pick up even more for a feat) and they aren't locked into a single path

Of course something you get 10 of is going to be less powerful than something you get 6 of.

Most of the powers in question were pretty poorly designed in the first place too (Most of those are only taken as a per-requisite) . Try comparing them to Pounce Totem, Superstitious, Come and Get Me ect.

I love how he specifies in his build challenge pick one or the other super amazing rage powers, but not both because that'd disprove my point despite most barbarians getting those rage powers.
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.
Pick a level. I'll build battle yah.

5th, 10th, 15th and 20th. Or 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. In this I agree with Ciretose, the builds have to be compared at various points instead of only at their peak level.

I like the first because it's only four instances and I like multiples of five.


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VM mercenario wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.

I'm kind of curious what you believe the ONE uber build is. Off the top of my head I can think of five: RAGELANCEPOUNCE, Come and Get Me Pouncers, Come and Get me Guarded, Bowbarians, Mounted Bowbarians.

Pounce is considered a staple because it allows melee classes to retain viability going into late level. This is something that a bloodrager as of yet does not have.

RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anymore, the devs faq'd mounted combat just to stop it, "your mount is charging but you're not" or something. There was a whole broouhaha about it at the time. Point is it doesn't work because the dev team says it doesn't work.

Bowbarian isn't much better than any other archer build. Mounted Bowbarian is pretty good because it's mounted archery and the barbarian can archetype to get a mount, but it has the same problems as any other mounted build.
I don't know what is a Come and Get Me Guarded, but Guarded Life is a very overrated power, and actually pretty useless.
The Uber build is Invulnerable Come and Get Me Pouncer with Spellbreaker.
Other good build you didn't mention are the Invulnerable Stalwart with his 23 DR/- and the Urban Come and Get Me Swashbuckler, a better swashbuckler than the playtest class.

bolded for emphasis.

but cool, so the cavalier class straight up doesnt work then.


AndIMustMask wrote:
but cool, so the cavalier class straight up doesnt work then.

That's what happens when the design team decides to break a whole combat style just because of one corner case build... :D


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Lemmy wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
but cool, so the cavalier class straight up doesnt work then.
That's what happens when the design team decides to break a whole combat style just because of one corner case build... :D

honestly, can't folks just say "yes this broken build is possible, but i will punch you in the face if you use it without a very good reason". i mean its possible to play an OP character and dial it back a bit when not going full nova (this is also the main response i give to "magus is so OP, lookit dat damaaaaage" threads).


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AndIMustMask wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
Why yes, there is ONE uber build. Obviously the blood rager can be better than all other builds, and all barbarians should stick to the same build and just dump all other Rage Powers in the garbage. Great idea, that one.

I'm kind of curious what you believe the ONE uber build is. Off the top of my head I can think of five: RAGELANCEPOUNCE, Come and Get Me Pouncers, Come and Get me Guarded, Bowbarians, Mounted Bowbarians.

Pounce is considered a staple because it allows melee classes to retain viability going into late level. This is something that a bloodrager as of yet does not have.

RAGELANCEPOUNCE doesn't work anymore, the devs faq'd mounted combat just to stop it, "your mount is charging but you're not" or something. There was a whole broouhaha about it at the time. Point is it doesn't work because the dev team says it doesn't work.

Bowbarian isn't much better than any other archer build. Mounted Bowbarian is pretty good because it's mounted archery and the barbarian can archetype to get a mount, but it has the same problems as any other mounted build.
I don't know what is a Come and Get Me Guarded, but Guarded Life is a very overrated power, and actually pretty useless.
The Uber build is Invulnerable Come and Get Me Pouncer with Spellbreaker.
Other good build you didn't mention are the Invulnerable Stalwart with his 23 DR/- and the Urban Come and Get Me Swashbuckler, a better swashbuckler than the playtest class.

bolded for emphasis.

but cool, so the cavalier class straight up doesnt work then.

It's one of those rulings I straight up ignore.

I don't ignore the ruling that you only get the extra lance damage on the first attack. But that's about it.


I'd say the uber Build is Come and Get Me combined with Dazing Assault. They provoke an attack that has a chance to flat out cancel their attack before it hits.

If you can rage cycle, Bolstered Resilience is ridiculously good.


hey, the FCT (claw) panther style CaGM barbarian is kinda nutso as well (gets TWO claw attacks on an AoO while moving, and can still pouncegib the guy at the end of the charge). tack on the knockdown rage power, greater trip and vicious stomp for even more AoO goodness.


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Threw together some sample builds!

Arcane Magekiller:
“Not today, Gandalf!”

Spoiler:
Dwarf Bloodrager (arcane bloodline) 10 (20pb)

Str 14 (5pts) +4 level (4th/8th/16th/20th)
Dex 14 (5pts)
Con 14 (2pts +2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 12 (+2 racial)
Cha 13 (7pts -2 racial) +1 level (12th)
(1 free-floating point for int or wis?)

traits:
-glory of old
-???

1 - Steel Soul
3 - Power Attack
4 - Eschew Materials*
5 - Step Up
6 - Improved Initiative*
7 - Following Step
9 - Step Up and Strike, Disruptive*

(eventually)
11 - Dazing Assault
12 - Spellbreaker*
13 - Intensify Spell
15 - Raging Vitality, Iron Will*
17 - Furious Focus
18 - Combat Reflexes*
19 - Improved Sunder

Throw on a +X furious courageous phase locking [weapon of choice] and laugh maniacally.
go into rage with blur and haste (generally) and hack casties to bits.

Undead Fearmonger:
“Ever seen a wall drop dead from fright? It’s not pretty, kid.”

Spoiler:
Human Bloodrager (undead bloodline) 10 (20pb)
Str 16 (5pts +2 racial) +5 level (4th/8th/12th/16th/20th)
Dex 14 (5pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14 (5pts)

traits:
-unnatural presence
-???

feats:
1 - Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
3 - Dragon Style
4 - Eschew Materials*
5 - WF (weapon of choice)
6 - Intimidating Prowess*
7 - Dazzling Display
9 - Shatter Defenses, Dodge*

(eventually)
11 - Furious Focus
12 - Mobility*
13 - Dreadful Carnage
15 - Cornugon Smash, Iron Will*
17 - ???
18 - Toughness*
19 - ???

Use a +X cruel furious courageous (in that order) [weapon of choice] and charge whenever possible--seriously, ½ level rounds shaken/frightened/panicked+sickened is MEAN.

Unkillable Destined Half-Orc
“Whenever your DM tries to kill you: simply lean over, look him/her in the eye, and then laugh in their face.”

Spoiler:
Half-Orc Bloodrager (destined bloodline) 10 (20pb)
- Replace intimidating with shaman’s apprentice, You cant take sacred tattoo, since you need ferocity for your feats.

Str 16 (10pts) +4 level (4th/8th/16th/20th)
Dex 12 (2pts)
Con 16 (5pts +2 racial)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 13 (3pts) +1 level (12th)

traits:
-fortune’s favored
-???

feats:
1 - Endurance*, Power Attack
3 - Ferocious Tenacity
4 - Eschew Materials**
5 - Ironhide
6 - Diehard*
7 - Deathless Initiate
9 - Deathless Master, Weapon Focus (weapon of choice)*

(eventually)
11 - Furious Focus
12 - Lightning Reflexes*
13 - Dazing Assault
15 - Raging Vitality, Improved Initiative*
17 - ???
18 - Intimidating Prowess/Leadership*
19 - ???

Grab a +X furious courageous (weapon of choice) and enjoy never missing on important attacks (destined strikes, certain strike), Also, scaling luck bonus to saves and AC? oh god yes.
You’ll eat up rage rounds like candy avoiding death with your feats though, fair warning.
Raging vitality simply isn’t needed early on (you already have diehard), but the extra CON later is nice. You don’t need deathless zealot since unstoppable covers that for you.

I'll make a celestial, draconic (straight and DD-compatible if bloorager lines count as sorc lines), and abyssal set (straight and DD-compatible if bloorager lines dont count as sorc lines) next.


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pardon the triple-post, but i've got all but the actual draconic BR/DD build done, so I'll post'em now:

Celestial Mounted “Paladin”
“You’re Huge! That means you must have huge evil! CLEAVE AND SMITE!”

Spoiler:
Aasimar (angelkin) Bloodrager 10 (20pb)

Str 16 (5pts +2 racial)
Dex 14 (5pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 16 (5pts +2 racial)

traits:
-Born Rider
-???

feats:
1 - Power Attack
3 - Nature Soul
4 - Eschew Materials
5 - Animal Ally
6 - Mounted Combat*
7 - Wheeling Charge
9 - Trick Riding, Ride-by-Attack*

(eventually)
11 - Spirited Charge
12 - Iron Will*
13 - Dazing Assault
15 - Mounted Skirmisher, Dodge*
17 - Furious Focus
18 - Mobility*
19 - ???

Make sure your animal companion (gained via animal ally) has the bodyguard archetype, have it pick up in bodyguard/harms way, and narrow frame. it’s more dungeon-accessible, and in combat It can take a hit aimed at you, which you can then attempt to negate with a ride check thanks to mounted combat!

.

DAEDOVAHKIIN
“How did I get here? Well, when a dragon and a succubus love each other very much--Oh, how did I get in here. Right.” *gestures to charred entryway*

Spoiler:
Tiefling (demon-spawn) Bloodrager (draconic bloodline (black)) 10
-Maw or Claw (bite) and Scaled Skin racial features taken

Str 16 (5pts +2 racial) +4 level (4th/8th/12th/16th)
Dex 14 (5pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 10 (2pts -2 racial)
Wis 11 (1pts) +1 level (20th)
Cha 14 (2pts +2 racial)

traits:
-bully
-unnatural presence

feats:
1 - Power Attack
3 - Cornugon Smash
4 - Eschew Materials*
5 - Furious Focus
6 - Improves Initiative*
7 - Lunge
9 - Noxious Bite, Skill Focus (fly)*

(eventually)
11 - Dreadful Carnage
12 - Blind-Fight*
13 - Dazing assault
15 - Intensify Spell, Great Fortitude*
17 - Intimidating Prowess
18 - Toughness*
19 - ???

-full BAB
-CL 20 level 4 spontaneous casting
-20d6 acid (60ft line, DC 20+con mod, reflex half) breath weapon 3/day (and bite attacks cause +1 acid damage and are nauseated for 1+con mod rounds, DC 20+con mod)
-+5 natural armor (1 racial +4 bloodline)
-60ft. fly speed (good maneuverability)
-immunity to paralysis, sleep, and acid damage
-blindsense 60ft.
-you can inspire terror (through cornugon smash, dreadful carnage, intimidating prowess+respectable str and cha)

yay, a natural attack build! you start with claw/claw (1d8+str+1d6 acid, primary) + bite (1d6+str+1 acid w/ nauseate, primary), and add breath weapon, a tail slap (1d6+str, secondary), and free energy damage later on (you can get a gore attack via the helm of the mammoth lord as well). you’re like a miniature black dragon, minus the size and quadrapedal-ness (shame we cant get wing buffets that i know of).

A +X furious courageous cruel AoMF is a must.

.

Big Hit Big Guy
“Sword good. Sword very good.”

Spoiler:
Tiefling (demon-spawn, over-sized limbs) Bloodrager (abyssal) 10
-Maw or Claw (bite) and Scaled Skin racial features taken

Str 16 (5pts +2 racial) +4 level (4th/8th/12th/16th)
Dex 14 (5pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 8 (-2 racial) +1 level (20th)
Wis 10
Cha 16 (5pts +2 racial)

traits:
-???
-???

feats:
1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
3 - Power Attack
4 - Eschew Materials
5 - Raging Vitality
6 - Toughness*
7 - Vital Strike
9 - Lunge, Great Fortitude*

(eventually)
11 - Improved Vital Strike
12 - Intimidating Prowess*
13 - Devastating Strike
15 - Furious Finish, Improved Sunder*
17 - Greater Vital Strike
18 - Improved Bull Rush*
19 - Improved Devastating Strike

unable to full attack? all buffed up but still have to close on the enemy?
Step 1: Take +X furious courageous (keen?) bastard sword (large-sized) or Sun Blade (huge-sized) (base damage 4d8, i think)
Step 2: lunge+power attack+greater vital strike+(improved) devastating strike+furious finish
Step 3: ????
PROFIT!

not the strongest application, but lunge+large size reach+huge-sized damage and a good strength mod with the ‘big hit’ build might be nifty to bring to a game.

.

DD build:

“Bane” a.k.a MAX STRENGTH ALL DAY ERRY DAY (assumes BR bloodlines dont count as sorc bloodlines)
“You think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it.”

Spoiler:
Tiefling (demon-spawn) Bloodrager (abyssal bloodline) 12 / Dragon Disciple 8
-Scaled Skin racial feature taken

Str 18 (10pts +2 racial)
Dex 12 (2pts)
Con 14 (5pts)
Int 8 (-2 racial)
Wis 8 (-2pts)
Cha 16 (5pts +2 racial)

traits:
-Magical Lineage (true strike)?
-???

feats:
1 - Power Attack, Skill Focus (knowledge: planes)
3 - Eldritch heritage (abyssal: claws)
4 - Eschew Materials*
5 - Raging Vitality
6 - Intimidating Prowess*
7 - Furious Focus
9 - Cornugon Smash, Toughness*
11 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (abyssal: strength of the abyss)
12 - Great Fortitude*
13 - Dazing Assault
15 - Intensify Spell
17 - Quicken Spell
19 - Dreadful Carnage

your endgame: a +5 furious(1) courageous(2) cruel(1) keen(1) falchion (perhaps?), since hoo boy is your endgame strength gonna be huge--let’s tally it all up, shall we?
18 (base w/ racial) +5 untyped (level) +8 morale (Gtr rage + abyssal bloodrage) +1-3 courageous (depends on wpn enhancement) +2 size (demonic bulk) +6 enhancement (belt) + 6 inherent (Imp. EH: abyssal) +4 untyped (DD ability boost)
brings our total strength to… 50-52 (while raging, depending on weapon enhancement), with a whopping mod of +20-21 (30-31 while wielding a weapon two-handed)! incidentally, this also means you get a HUGE bonus to intimidate via intimidating prowess.

A few other things of note:
con +11-13 (6 gtr rage +2 raging vitality +2 DD ability boost) before gear
int +2 (DD ability boost) before gear
4 natural armor (1 racial +3 DD increase)
dragon bite, breath weapon, blindsense 30ft, Form of the Dragon 1/day
CL 18 spellcasting (even with the magus list and level 4 spells max, that’s access to all kinds of neat tricks, and with your trait you can fire off a quickened true strike to lay on the hurt)

you could also dip 1 in alchemist (BR 12 / DD 7 / ALCH 1) for an additional +4 strength (alchemical) from mutagen.

While they're not the greatest things since sliced bread, they'd be fun to play I think.


Rysky wrote:
PhelanArcetus wrote:

I think the custom spell list will do a lot of good, especially if some new swift action spells are thrown in.

I think Tireless Rage should stay, and I'm a huge sucker for Fast Movement, moreso than I truly should be. I'd be quite happy dropping Mighty Rage given that the bloodlines have their own capstone; no need for two different capstones. I definitely agree that the Bloodrager should lose a bit of the standard Barbarian list for more emphasis on the bloodlines. If Fast Movement is killed, it's a great thing to include in Fey, though.

CL = level - 3 is fine by me, it's not a tremendous hit (not like the CL = level / 2 that 3.5 had), and it makes sense in the same way it does for Paladin and Ranger - when you get the ability to cast spells, your caster level isn't suddenly 4, even though you can cast only one spell.

Throwing a save DC bonus onto Bloodrage would be a good way to boost the use of offensive spells, as well.

CL -3 doesn't really bother Paladins and Rangers because (the vast majority of ) all their spells are buffing, healing, and utility. Unless something is seriously wrong I doubt you'll need that buff to last more than 1 minute.

The Bloodrager spell list on the other hand seems to be split between buffing and blasting, which the -to CL would hurt.

I think CL -3, with +CL and/or +DC when raging sounds like a good idea. That compensates for a lower CL (without CL suddenly jumping from 0 to 4), also compensates for the lower spell DCs of a secondary/tertiary stat and lower spell levels, and encourages using your offensive spells during rage, rather than instead of raging.


TarkXT wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:


But, okay, maybe these builds are biased since I made them with a similar theme. How about this, anyone can make a barbarian build, and I will make a bloodrager to compare. Only rule is no superstitious pouncers. Pick one or the other, Superstition tree or Beast Totem tree. Feel free to pick archetypes.
If you make me sit down and build a Bowbarian it will be a bad day.

My Half-Orc Zen Archer got kicked out of the monastery at level 3 for "anger management issues". She carries an extra, higher-strength composite bow with a scowling face above the grip and warns people not to make her take out her "Angry Bow".

I'm strongly tempted to keep the Angry Bow around even after she can afford the Adaptive enchantment...

Silver Crusade

PhelanArcetus wrote:
Rysky wrote:
PhelanArcetus wrote:

I think the custom spell list will do a lot of good, especially if some new swift action spells are thrown in.

I think Tireless Rage should stay, and I'm a huge sucker for Fast Movement, moreso than I truly should be. I'd be quite happy dropping Mighty Rage given that the bloodlines have their own capstone; no need for two different capstones. I definitely agree that the Bloodrager should lose a bit of the standard Barbarian list for more emphasis on the bloodlines. If Fast Movement is killed, it's a great thing to include in Fey, though.

CL = level - 3 is fine by me, it's not a tremendous hit (not like the CL = level / 2 that 3.5 had), and it makes sense in the same way it does for Paladin and Ranger - when you get the ability to cast spells, your caster level isn't suddenly 4, even though you can cast only one spell.

Throwing a save DC bonus onto Bloodrage would be a good way to boost the use of offensive spells, as well.

CL -3 doesn't really bother Paladins and Rangers because (the vast majority of ) all their spells are buffing, healing, and utility. Unless something is seriously wrong I doubt you'll need that buff to last more than 1 minute.

The Bloodrager spell list on the other hand seems to be split between buffing and blasting, which the -to CL would hurt.

I think CL -3, with +CL and/or +DC when raging sounds like a good idea. That compensates for a lower CL (without CL suddenly jumping from 0 to 4), also compensates for the lower spell DCs of a secondary/tertiary stat and lower spell levels, and encourages using your offensive spells during rage, rather than instead of raging.

My apologies but this sounds just a wee bit overcomplicated, as is having a CL for 1rst level spells isn't that bad since other casters already have 2nd level spells.

Fear my 4th level Magic Missile!

Shadow Lodge

AS much as it pains me to say this, i think the abyssal bloodline is way to powerful. this is comming from someone who got super excited and wide eyed when he first saw this as an option.

how should you fix it to make it balanced? i have no clue, but the character i have built uses 4 levels of magus hexcrafter to debuff the crap out of people while dealing an absolute insane ammount of physical and spell based damage.

yeah i think this is a little overdone.

even as a vanilla build with no multiclass, i think this character would be better then a standard barbarian.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:

AS much as it pains me to say this, i think the abyssal bloodline is way to powerful. this is comming from someone who got super excited and wide eyed when he first saw this as an option.

how should you fix it to make it balanced? i have no clue, but the character i have built uses 4 levels of magus hexcrafter to debuff the crap out of people while dealing an absolute insane ammount of physical and spell based damage.

yeah i think this is a little overdone.

even as a vanilla build with no multiclass, i think this character would be better then a standard barbarian.

God forbid anyone ever make an effective build.


It is a touch over the top in terms of having the biggest damage score on anything with two legs.

With 18 strength you're looking at:

18Str + 2 Size + 14 Rage = 34 eventually Str without even trying. If you throw in magic items and ability score increases this can very easily get into the 50's.

Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

AS much as it pains me to say this, i think the abyssal bloodline is way to powerful. this is comming from someone who got super excited and wide eyed when he first saw this as an option.

how should you fix it to make it balanced? i have no clue, but the character i have built uses 4 levels of magus hexcrafter to debuff the crap out of people while dealing an absolute insane ammount of physical and spell based damage.

yeah i think this is a little overdone.

even as a vanilla build with no multiclass, i think this character would be better then a standard barbarian.

God forbid anyone ever make an effective build.

Say that to the effective build of Pun-Pun.

Sczarni

King Mutton:

A very hefty man is seen as he cleans off his finely-made Kukri that he uses for a butcher's knife, it has a sheep motif. Despite his baggage, he is quiet a nimble fellow. As he closes shop like usual, he takes off his bloody smock and grabs his white fleece that he drapes over his shoulders. Despite being easier to hit than some with such nimble speed, his girth makes him harder to take down.

LN Male Human Bloodrager 9
STR: 14(18), DEX: 10, CON: 22(28), INT:10 , WIS: 7, CHA: 12

Age: 32
Weight: 375 Lbs (Not including armor)

HP: 180 (207 while raging, 225 if raging and Bear's Endurance)
AC: 18
Init: 0
FORT: 12 (15 while raging)
WILL: 1
REF: 3

Movement Speed: 40
DR: 1/-

Bloodline: Fey
Bloodline Spells: Entangle
Bloodline Powers: Confusing Critical, Leaping Charger (ignore difficult terrain when charing), Blurring Charge (Under the effects of Blur for 1 round after charging).

Gear: +2 Furyborn Kukri, +2 Mithral Breastplate, Weapon Blaunch (Silver), Weapon Blaunch (Cold Iron)

Feats: Raging Vitality, Endurance, Diehard, Eschew Materials*, Dodge, Toughness, Improved Critical (Kukri), Mobility

Skills: (Stuff)

Combat: +2 Furyborn Kukri +13/+8 (1d4+4, 15-20/x2)
While Raging: +2 Furyborn Kukri +15/+10 (1d4+6, 15-20/x2)
While Raging & Enlarged: +2 Furyborn Kukri +16/+11 (1d4+8, 15-20/x2)

Combat Strategy: King Mutton is very deceptive apparently according to others. Despite his hefty weight, he is a very graceful combatant on the battlefield. Able to charge over difficult terrain, becoming a blur for short times after his charge due to his sheer speed.

If King Mutton has time before combat starts he will start buffing himself with as many spells as possible. The spells cast are in this order: Bear's Endurance, Enlarge Person, Infernal Healing.

If King Mutton does not have time to prep up his buffs, he will cast Bear's Endurance and on his next turn go for Enlarge Person if he has time.

King Mutton's weapon, a kukri may seem a bit of an odd choice at first but its for a smart reason. Whenever he gets a critical strike on someone while using it which is a 15-20 chance, he confuses them. To avoid confusion the enemy must make a DC 20 Will Save, DC 23 if he is Raging, if he has Bear's Endurance going the will save becomes DC 25. He relies on the idea that 50% of the time his foes will either hurt themselves or waste a turn by babbling to maintain the lead in a fight.

If he is amongst other melee combatants, King Mutton will make use of hit and run tactics as he will charge in and then on his next turn withdrawal, rinse repeat.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:

It is a touch over the top in terms of having the biggest damage score on anything with two legs.

With 18 strength you're looking at:

18Str + 2 Size + 14 Rage = 34 eventually Str without even trying. If you throw in magic items and ability score increases this can very easily get into the 50's.

How are you gettting 14 rage? I only counted +10 to Strength for raging at 20th-level.

All the things you describe merely make it comparable to multitudes of other options out there.


+8 from rage +6 more from bloodline.

Remember this is while only raging alone. Haven't even included spells, or magic items.


Ravingdork wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

It is a touch over the top in terms of having the biggest damage score on anything with two legs.

With 18 strength you're looking at:

18Str + 2 Size + 14 Rage = 34 eventually Str without even trying. If you throw in magic items and ability score increases this can very easily get into the 50's.

How are you gettting 14 rage? I only counted +10 to Strength for raging at 20th-level.

All the things you describe merely make it comparable to multitudes of other options out there.

Its the Bloodrager with the Abyssal Bloodline. I think getting Beastshape 4 while raging is way better though. Its just +2 Str less but you get a truck load of natural attacks for it. And Pounce.

Dark Archive

I understand it is how sorcerer blood lines work but that does not mean I cannot suggest what I believe would be an improvement. Instead of nailing each PC of a certain bloodline down to such a similar progression, list each power with a weak version and upgrades for leveling. This way we can choose what abilities to go after sooner and which ones to save for later. Similar to how an oracle chooses her mystery/revelation abilities. I prefer to choose from a menu that includes appetizers. If a bloodline has a cool ability at 8 th level but something I do not care for at level 4, I will likely not play that option at all. I rarely ever get a chance to build a PC beyond level 2, even level 5 are rare starts. It is already hard to wait till level 4 to get the bloodline abilities. I am not a full BAB class type of player, having to go the first 3 levels as a barbarian is not appealing at all. Even from someone who sometimes takes 1 or2 barbarian levels along with caster classes. My several Alc/Bbn were all able to both rage and do extracts by level 2 and will have many more extracts than a BR will ever have.

I am curious as to why the choice was made to give the BR a spell at 4 instead of only a bonus spell. I do like the increased spell casting ability of the BR, both a tiny bit more spells at some levels and the increased caster level. I would even like to see both ran/pal get such an upgrade.


playing a barbarian is literally half the draw of the class. well, more three-quarters, really, but you get my point.

Dark Archive

I like the flavor of this class, but it's main point (casting spells while raging) is completely pointless. If I am raging, not only does it make sense to physically attack something instead of casting spells, but it seems to be very suboptimal to have to choose between attacking and casting. You literally have to waste rage rounds to do something like buff yourself before you fight. Who wants to rage so they can cast magic missle? You rage to go and chop things in half. I think a simple fix would be something similar to the magus's spell combat. Let them attack and cast in the same round. If that would be too overpowered, just ditch the spells altogether, and give them some spell like abilities or supernatural abilites they can use as swift actions while raging. I would also like to request a bloodrager archetype that has hexes. The 3.5 hexblade reborn.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
I like the flavor of this class, but it's main point (casting spells while raging) is completely pointless. If I am raging, not only does it make sense to physically attack something instead of casting spells, but it seems to be very suboptimal to have to choose between attacking and casting. You literally have to waste rage rounds to do something like buff yourself before you fight. Who wants to rage so they can cast magic missle? You rage to go and chop things in half. I think a simple fix would be something similar to the magus's spell combat. Let them attack and cast in the same round. If that would be too overpowered, just ditch the spells altogether, and give them some spell like abilities or supernatural abilites they can use as swift actions while raging. I would also like to request a bloodrager archetype that has hexes. The 3.5 hexblade reborn.

As someone explains about once per page of this thread- You can cast spells in or out of rage.

I'd also argue that, like with every full BAB/4 level caster class, the spells are really just gravy. The main appeal is being a barbarian with a magical bloodline giving you crazy powers and narrative room to describe crazy Incredible Hulk style transformations.


You can cast outside of--oh, ninja'd

Grand Lodge

Googleshng wrote:

As someone explains about once per page of this thread- You can cast spells in or out of rage.

I'd also argue that, like with every full BAB/4 level caster class, the spells are really just gravy. The main appeal is being a barbarian with a magical bloodline giving you crazy powers and narrative room to describe crazy Incredible Hulk style transformations.

Which is why the Bloodrager is considered fun. It gives you versatility in how you go into your bloodrage and what sort of build is the Bloodrager designed around. What appeals the most often to players and DMs alike is how versatile something can be in what options it has and that it can fulfill various character concepts. That the builds are not so limited that only 1-3 exist for instance that are any good, because aside from say the bloodlines and spells, interesting characters can be made by what race, what style of fighting, what quirks the build has, etc, etc. In fact, a Human Bloodrager (Destined) can be used alone to make several different character concepts that is only limited by the imagination of its creator.

Its why a class like Summoner could appeal well, because your Eidolon was whatever you could dream up and call your own.

:)


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after having built that half-orc destined guy, i gotta say destined is crazy good--i'd rate it almost up there with arcane (the "best" in my opinion).


AndIMustMask wrote:
after having built that half-orc destined guy, i gotta say destined is crazy good--i'd rate it almost up there with arcane (the "best" in my opinion).

Really? What makes it so good?

Dark Archive

Googleshng wrote:
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
I like the flavor of this class, but it's main point (casting spells while raging) is completely pointless. If I am raging, not only does it make sense to physically attack something instead of casting spells, but it seems to be very suboptimal to have to choose between attacking and casting. You literally have to waste rage rounds to do something like buff yourself before you fight. Who wants to rage so they can cast magic missle? You rage to go and chop things in half. I think a simple fix would be something similar to the magus's spell combat. Let them attack and cast in the same round. If that would be too overpowered, just ditch the spells altogether, and give them some spell like abilities or supernatural abilites they can use as swift actions while raging. I would also like to request a bloodrager archetype that has hexes. The 3.5 hexblade reborn.

As someone explains about once per page of this thread- You can cast spells in or out of rage.

I'd also argue that, like with every full BAB/4 level caster class, the spells are really just gravy. The main appeal is being a barbarian with a magical bloodline giving you crazy powers and narrative room to describe crazy Incredible Hulk style transformations.

Well. That is a relief. I guess when I read "the bloodrager gains

the ability to cast spells while using bloodrage" I interpreted it to mean "only" while in bloodrage. That does make it better.

Dark Archive

I was just looking at some of the bloodlines, and man some of them are powerful. Why play a regular old barbarian when you can literally be an incredible hulk or get buffs for free, etc?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Scavion wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
after having built that half-orc destined guy, i gotta say destined is crazy good--i'd rate it almost up there with arcane (the "best" in my opinion).
Really? What makes it so good?

Destined Strike: Three times per a day as a free action, you may add 1/2 your bloodrager level to attacks.

Fated Bloodrager: +1 luck bonus to your AC and all your saving throws. Luck bonus increases by +1 at 8th and every four levels there after to a maximum of +4 at level 20 (Maybe typo, I think that should read +5, plus Luck bonuses stack with each other)

Certain Strike: You may choose to reroll one attack roll once during a bloodrage. This can be made after the roll but before the GM reveals the results.

Fate's Intervention: Once per day when an attack or spell would cause damage that would result in your death, you may attempt a DC 20 Will Save. If successful, you are reduced 1 HP instead; if you succeed and already had fewer than 1 HP than you take no damage instead.

Unstoppable: Any critical threats made against you only confirm if the second roll is a natural 20 on the die. Any critical threats you score are automatically confirmed.

Victory or Death: At 20th level you are immune to paralysis and petrifaction, as well as the stunned, dazed, and staggered conditions.

(I would say its got some nice perks)


Brawling Elf wrote:
Scavion wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
after having built that half-orc destined guy, i gotta say destined is crazy good--i'd rate it almost up there with arcane (the "best" in my opinion).
Really? What makes it so good?

Destined Strike: Three times per a day as a free action, you may add 1/2 your bloodrager level to attacks.

Fated Bloodrager: +1 luck bonus to your AC and all your saving throws. Luck bonus increases by +1 at 8th and every four levels there after to a maximum of +4 at level 20 (Maybe typo, I think that should read +5, plus Luck bonuses stack with each other)

Certain Strike: You may choose to reroll one attack roll once during a bloodrage. This can be made after the roll but before the GM reveals the results.

Fate's Intervention: Once per day when an attack or spell would cause damage that would result in your death, you may attempt a DC 20 Will Save. If successful, you are reduced 1 HP instead; if you succeed and already had fewer than 1 HP than you take no damage instead.

Unstoppable: Any critical threats made against you only confirm if the second roll is a natural 20 on the die. Any critical threats you score are automatically confirmed.

Victory or Death: At 20th level you are immune to paralysis and petrifaction, as well as the stunned, dazed, and staggered conditions.

(I would say its got some nice perks)

this. tack on the fate's favored trait and the AC/save bonus is all the sweeter, and half-orcs who dont go the "unkillable" route (like my sample build) can take sacred tattoo for another +1 to saves (or +2 if fates favored applies to luck bonuses individually, though i doubt that's the case).


Brawling Elf wrote:
Scavion wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
after having built that half-orc destined guy, i gotta say destined is crazy good--i'd rate it almost up there with arcane (the "best" in my opinion).
Really? What makes it so good?

Fated Bloodrager: +1 luck bonus to your AC and all your saving throws. Luck bonus increases by +1 at 8th and every four levels there after to a maximum of +4 at level 20 (Maybe typo, I think that should read +5, plus Luck bonuses stack with each other)

Luck Bonuses do not stack with each other.

"A luck modifier represents good (or bad) fortune. Multiple luck bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest luck bonus applies."

Definitely up there with the top tier choices me thinks though. I think these are the best in top 4.

Arcane>Abyssal>Celestial or Destined.

Piercing DR/Good is really nice for free.


huh. i thought luck, dodge, and untyped all stacked. oh well, you learn something new every day.


AndIMustMask wrote:
huh. i thought luck, dodge, and untyped all stacked. oh well, you learn something new every day.

For the longest time I thought Sacred bonuses stacked.


Well if you have the Fate's Favored trait it boosts the luck bonus to AC and saves by 1. Certain strike is nice for avoiding nat ones too.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:

+8 from rage +6 more from bloodline.

Remember this is while only raging alone. Haven't even included spells, or magic items.

I somehow got it in my head that bloodrage didn't improve like normal rage for some reason.

Scavion wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
huh. i thought luck, dodge, and untyped all stacked. oh well, you learn something new every day.
For the longest time I thought Sacred bonuses stacked.

The only bonuses that stack with themselves are circumstance bonuses (so long as they are from different circumstances), dodge, racial, and untyped bonuses.


Ravingdork wrote:
TarkXT wrote:

+8 from rage +6 more from bloodline.

Remember this is while only raging alone. Haven't even included spells, or magic items.

I somehow got it in my head that bloodrage didn't improve like normal rage for some reason.

Scavion wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
huh. i thought luck, dodge, and untyped all stacked. oh well, you learn something new every day.
For the longest time I thought Sacred bonuses stacked.
The only bonuses that stack with themselves are circumstance bonuses (so long as they are from different circumstances), dodge, racial, and untyped bonuses.

I know all that now. =P


Sorry to change the subject,but I think the Bloodrager could use its spells as little more than a little gravy on top.
My suggestion allow different bloodlines a different interaction with spells while bloodraging. For Example
Elemental Storm
Flavor The elemental blood in your veins reacts violent and erupts in a show of elemental power when exposed to elemental magic.
When a Elemental Spell that matches your elemental bloodline's type is successfully cast within x feet while bloodraging you may cast another spell of the same element of equal or lower level with a casting time of a standard action as a interrupt action. You may only do this once per round, but it can be used at will.
This spell may trigger others of the same elemental bloodline but their spells cannot trigger yours. I.E. If Person A casts Flaming Sphere Person B Could Cast a 2nd level or lower spell with the fire descriptor but person A could not if person B successfully casts a spell of the fire descriptor no matter who or how many other people cast spell as a result of the Elemental Storm. These spells resolve last in first out so A>B>C is resolved in C>B>A even if the caster of any of those spells would be harmfully affected by any of the other resolving spells. If two would be triggered at the same time the person with the higher initiative spell is cast first then the lower person then others are triggered.
Or for Arcane
Frenzied Counterspell
Flavor Your arcane infused blood allows you to vent your magic fuelled rage with mystical brute force
When someone attempts to cast an arcane spell while you are in blood rage you may make a spellcraft check to identify the spell if you do and you know the spell you may counter it without spending an action but the slot is used. Alternatively if you may use dispel magic and make the opposed caster level check , you may only use this mode once a round. Also if you use this replace form of the dimension door with greater dispel magic at 4th level.
The key being allowing the Bloodrager to use spells in rage and smash stuff in melee while encouraging the bloodrager to use bloodline spells or thematic spells without doing something to similar to other bloodlines. the reason I allowed to be used at will is mostly because the bloodrager has small pool of limited spells to use.
Minor Balance issues ahead
The Abberant bloodline needs a probably the most work out of all the bloodlines mostly due to the huge mount of overlap with class feature and other bloodines in ways that are only good in corner cases or feels sort of redundant.
Level 4 Extra reach is just one of the effects of the abyssal bloodine enlarge person though it does stack with the spell it really feels like a weaker ability and really needs changed.
Level 12 the Unusual Anatomy suffers from the fact by then you have improved uncanny dodge which I think deals with most of the precision damage. If there are sources that cause precision damage please enlighten me and the critical protection is shared by the Destined bloodline though it does get it later it is better until the capstone whish has other problems.
Level 16 Abberant Resistance the fatigue and exhausted resistance works wonkily with rage meaning you don't suffer the condition while raging , but outside of rage your lack of immunity outside of it means you cannot enter rage to end or ignore the effect(pleases clarify if I got this wrong). Also the other immunities feel a little late for the level.
Level 20 Abberant Form The improved forms of unusual anatomy while better still has too mush overlap with the Destined bloodlines Unstoppable and uncanny dodge while the DR is weaker than the Undead. though the blindsight is very nice.
Also the arcane bloodline doesn't need Form of the Dragon 1 while if any bloodline gets form of the dragon it should be Draconic unfortunately after a few minutes to remember that draconic disciple and the eldritch heritage feats exist makes this a moot point. I still think Form of the dragon HIGHLY modified could make a good capstone it would probably be ridiculously complicated like this post.
Sorry for the really lengthy post and if I got anything wrong please enlighten me on the issue. Final word of warning I am an idiot and may have made a horrible mistake with the above idea.
P.S. I understand the advantage of the abberant bloodline is mostly in the sheer number of immunities but I feel there should be less overlap with other bloodlines and class abilities.


Here to give some play data feedback from todays game. Played my Aberrant Aasmir Bloodrager in The Godsmouth Heresy. He had one credit on him from The Confirmation. I have never played a Barbarian before in PF or 3.x, but I've played every other core class and all the Base classes besides the Witch. I've also GM's 58 PFS games now, ran 2 AP's and numerous home games. So I'm not the best with the class, but have a fair bit of experience.

*This may contain minor spoilers on The Godsmouth Heresy*

Obviously, he doesn't seem much different to me than a Barbarian would at this point. I either dominated combat, went unconscious or both;) I solo'd an entire encounter while the party was playing with evil statues with which Wyrrian (my character) didn't want to mess around. I was only rocking a 17 AC, which was often 15, 13 or even 11 at times, so I got whacked a lot. Most things I hit died in one round though. When they didn't, there was a high likely hood of me getting dropped unconscious. I went unconscious 4 different times, with one of them putting me at a serious risk of dying. I would have died on the boss if it wasn't for my cold resist 5. I used my rage sparingly and still had a single round left when we exited the dungeon. We probably had 11 or 12 encounters total.

Seems like a fun class, but its totally outside the realm of anything I've played before, the massively dropping AC thing is kind of crazy! Anyway, I had fun AND made it through alive. Not much else to report, at this point it seems pretty balanced, as you'd probably expect.

My plan is to pick up combat reflexes at level 3 and take advantage of reach at level 4. I will keep one wrist sheath loaded with enlarge person, and will probably avoid casting it because of the long casting time. I may pick up extra traits at level 5 to get accelerated drinker, as I didn't pick it up in my initial build. I was debating on using a reach weapon, but have decided a non-reach weapon with 20 foot reach is pretty good. I was also considering lunge, but I dread to take even more hits to my AC. I'll see later. I have some GM credit lying around, I am considering using it on him to get him to 3, but I'm not sure when I'll end up in another low tier game.

On another note, following the errata it seems that 3rd level is now a dead level for bloodrager? Seems they shouldn't really have a dead level to me personally.

Anyway, I'll make another post after a few more games.

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