Wow. A 4th-level aberrant bloodrager with enlarge person and a reach weapon has a reach of 30 feet.
05 Natural reach
05 Enlarge person
05 Abnormal reach
x2 Reach weapon
==
30 Foot reachIs it the intent that Abnormal Reach would be multiplied as if it were natural reach, or would it be added on at the end since it is only in effect during a bloodrage, and bloodrage is a supernatural power?
+05 Natural reach
+05 Enlarge
x2 Reach
= 20
+05 Abnormal reach
= 25 foot reach
The rules are quite clear in that reach weapons double whatever reach you happen to have, provided they are sized appropriately to the wielder.
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The rules are quite clear in that reach weapons double whatever reach you happen to have, provided they are sized appropriately to the wielder.Wow. A 4th-level aberrant bloodrager with enlarge person and a reach weapon has a reach of 30 feet.
05 Natural reach
05 Enlarge person
05 Abnormal reach
x2 Reach weapon
==
30 Foot reachIs it the intent that Abnormal Reach would be multiplied as if it were natural reach, or would it be added on at the end since it is only in effect during a bloodrage, and bloodrage is a supernatural power?
+05 Natural reach
+05 Enlarge
x2 Reach
= 20k
+05 Abnormal reach
= 25 foot reach
Disregarding how trivially simple it is to find a way to threaten adjacency while wielding a reach weapon for a moment; would there then be a 15 foot radius of unthreatened squares cenetered on you?
Disregarding how trivially simple it is to find a way to threaten adjacency while wielding a reach weapon for a moment; would there then be a 15 foot radius of unthreatened squares cenetered on you?The rules are quite clear in that reach weapons double whatever reach you happen to have, provided they are sized appropriately to the wielder.Wow. A 4th-level aberrant bloodrager with enlarge person and a reach weapon has a reach of 30 feet.
05 Natural reach
05 Enlarge person
05 Abnormal reach
x2 Reach weapon
==
30 Foot reachIs it the intent that Abnormal Reach would be multiplied as if it were natural reach, or would it be added on at the end since it is only in effect during a bloodrage, and bloodrage is a supernatural power?
+05 Natural reach
+05 Enlarge
x2 Reach
= 20k
+05 Abnormal reach
= 25 foot reach
Yes. Yes there would.
But that's what Armor Spikes and bite attacks are for.
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The rules are quite clear in that reach weapons double whatever reach you happen to have, provided they are sized appropriately to the wielder.
I'm reading:
Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach or less.
Seems to me that this only allows for up to natural reach to be doubled, and anything on top (Aberrant bloodline, lunge feat) would be added after the fact. Same goes for longer reach weapons such as the whip. Example:
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (20 ft. with whip)
Even though the whip has a 15' reach, it ends up with the same reach as a polearm in the hands of a large creature.
I would love it if I could have a 50' reach (large whip wielding aberrant lunging bloodrager), but I'm not sure things stack like that?
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They have mede a ruling on the casting level issue? it was my impression that the bloodrager atm have full caster level.
Right now the bloodrager lacks the exception that both the paladin and the ranger have on their caster level. One of the things we are testing is whether or not they need it or should have it. Assume in playtesting the caster level is the bloodrager level.
I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I want to see what comes out of playtesting.
Has anyone an answer to this?Would a Bloodrager using a wand with a magus cantrip on it have to use UMD to do it?
While he himself doesn't get the ability to cast cantrips it IS on his spell list. And this is normally the prerequisite for using wands. It's a little like a 1st level paladin using a wand with a paladin spell on it. He can't cast it but it's on his spell list.
Yes he would have to use UMD. A bloodrager does not gain cantrips, and this will be clarified in the final version of the class.
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They have mede a ruling on the casting level issue? it was my impression that the bloodrager atm have full caster level.Right now the bloodrager lacks the exception that both the paladin and the ranger have on their caster level. One of the things we are testing is whether or not they need it or should have it. Assume in playtesting the caster level is the bloodrager level.
I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I want to see what comes out of playtesting.
Oh nice.
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I could see an argument for the reduction, simply because so many of their spells will otherwise max out as soon as they can cast them. It provides a nice symmetry.
On the other hand, this class is really crying out for
Whenever the arcanist
casts a spell of her chosen school, using one of her arcanist
spell slots, she can expend one use of her blood focus as a
free action to bolster the spell. This adds 1 to the spell’s
caster level and DC. The arcanist cannot expend more
than one use of blood focus on a given casting of a spell.
and
School Supremacy: At 20th level, the arcanist learns to
fully master the powers of one school of magic. Whenever
she uses her blood focus to cast a spell of her selected school,
she may also modify the spell with Empower Spell, Extend
Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell. This doesn’t increase the
casting time or the level of the spell slot consumed. In
addition, the spell’s DC increases by 1. She doesn’t need to
possess the desired feat to use it with this ability.
only without the chosen school part. And if you're going that route, reducing caster level seems counter-intuitive.
Oh nice.
They have mede a ruling on the casting level issue? it was my impression that the bloodrager atm have full caster level.Right now the bloodrager lacks the exception that both the paladin and the ranger have on their caster level. One of the things we are testing is whether or not they need it or should have it. Assume in playtesting the caster level is the bloodrager level.
I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I want to see what comes out of playtesting.
Nice to see this in words. I'm one session from finishing a 6th level playtest in Dawn of the Scarlet Sun. We assumed the the lack of wording in that regard was on purpose.
This is how the Bloodrager is more powerful in his casting as opposed to the Ranger and Paladin =)
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Well...wow.
Just realized this class would work well to represent a Claymore...
saves, yes (and stellar touch AC as well). archetypes, a few--i find that a lot of the "good" archetypes are mostly used as a dip to improve another class--tetori and zen archer notwithstanding.
.
main issue is that most of the stuff folks want it to do (have a decent hit chance, have abilities that actually mesh and aren't everywhere at once, have items that actually work for monks, not ones that sit and laugh at them, actually being good at unarmed combat, etc. etc.), it just can't meet those expectations.sure you can houserule things to help "fix" it (give them full BAB instead of just pretending they do, change maneuver training into a scaling CMB bonus/X levels, have flurry give an extra attack (or attacks as you hit 8th/15th) while full-attacking or moving (like a sort of "spring attack +"), let things like the brawling enchant apply to bracers, etc.), but you shouldn't have to. the class should be stable enough on its own.
anyway, this is the bloodrager topic, and i apologize for sidetracking it with my disappointments.
Sorry i just get into a bloodrage when people talk poorly about one of my favorite clases XD
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They have mede a ruling on the casting level issue? it was my impression that the bloodrager atm have full caster level.Right now the bloodrager lacks the exception that both the paladin and the ranger have on their caster level. One of the things we are testing is whether or not they need it or should have it. Assume in playtesting the caster level is the bloodrager level.
I have my own thoughts on the subject, but I want to see what comes out of playtesting.
Thanks, you are the man!
And it looks like arcane strike, is back on the menu:)| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Post removed. Constructive and polite please. You may not like something or have an argument to make, but you can do that without breaking the Paizo board's first rule. I've seen it happen, many, many times. :)
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Has this been stated officially? :-)Does Bloodrage count as rage for purposes of Feats that require rage class feature?Yes.
Don't know where off the top of my head but yeah for the purposes of this Playtest Bloodrager counts as rage for qualifying for feats.
Edit: found it, it's the last paragraph under the Bloodrage entry in the actual Playtest document.
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My PFS bloodrager I'm in the process of leveling now.
Demon-spawn Tiefling Bloodrager (Bloodline: Abyssal) (alternate racial traits: Frindish Sprinter, Maw)
STR 16 (14 + 2)
DEX 13
CON 16
INT 8 (10 - 2)
WIS 10
CHA 14 (12 + 2)
Traits: Armor Expert, Focused Mind
01:(Fast Movement) (Bloodrage) (Bloodline Power: Claws) Armor of the Pit
02:(Uncanny Dodge)
03: Raging Vitality
04: Dex:14 (Bloodline Power: Demonic Bulk) (Bloodcasting)
05:(Improved Uncanny Dodge) Combat Casting
06:(Power Attack)
07:(Bloodline Spell: Cause Fear) (Damage Reduction 1/-) Rending Claws
08: Dex:15 (Bloodline Power: Demonic Resistance)
09:(Improved Bull Rush) Combat Reflexes
10:(Bloodline Spell: Bull Strength) (Damage Reduction 2/-)
11:(Greater Bloodrage) Stand Still
12: Dex:16 (Cleave) (Bloodline Power: Abyssal Bloodrage)
Don't know where off the top of my head but yeah for the purposes of this Playtest Bloodrager counts as rage for qualifying for feats.Has this been stated officially? :-)Does Bloodrage count as rage for purposes of Feats that require rage class feature?Yes.
Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class ability for the purpose of qualifying for feat prerequisites, magic
item abilities, and spell effects.
Doot doo.
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Don't know where off the top of my head but yeah for the purposes of this Playtest Bloodrager counts as rage for qualifying for feats.Has this been stated officially? :-)Does Bloodrage count as rage for purposes of Feats that require rage class feature?Yes.Doot doo.Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class ability for the purpose of qualifying for feat prerequisites, magic
item abilities, and spell effects.
Yep, thankies.
Well...wow.
Just realized this class would work well to represent a Claymore...+1
Now I wonder what we could use to represent an Awakened One.
Half-fiend template ;)
You can try to bury the truth but I'll say it again.
It has all of the barbarians abilities, only trading Rage for a Rage wjhere he can cast spells, and trading Trap Sense and the Rage Powers for the Bloodline, the Eschew Materials feat and the Spells.
Even worse, it's strictly more powerful than the barbarian, since the Bloodline gives 6 powers and 5 bonus feats, and the spells are easily worth more than three or four Rage Power. And many of the Bloodline Powers are way better than Rage powers.
Man, I never imagined that I would have to defend the barbarian, of all classes.
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You can try to bury the truth but I'll say it again.
It has all of the barbarians abilities, only trading Rage for a Rage wjhere he can cast spells, and trading Trap Sense and the Rage Powers for the Bloodline, the Eschew Materials feat and the Spells.
Even worse, it's strictly more powerful than the barbarian, since the Bloodline gives 6 powers and 5 bonus feats, and the spells are easily worth more than three or four Rage Power. And many of the Bloodline Powers are way better than Rage powers.Man, I never imagined that I would have to defend the barbarian, of all classes.
It had more to do with the language than the comments. This post is perfectly fine.
I'd just remove the Barbarian's secondary abilities but keep the Bloodrager's spell casting and Bloodrage class feature are they are.
Actually, they probably don't need Mighty Rage either, seen as their bloodline already gives the class a capstone ability.
Rage Powers are really good. Supertition and Beast Totem are obvious examples, but even without them, we still have stuff like Strength Surge, Come and Get Me, Clear Mind, Knock Down, Reckless Abandon and Unexpected Strike.
Besides, Barbarians don't need to invest in Cha.
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I'd just remove the Barbarian's secondary abilities but keep the Bloodrager's spell casting and Bloodrage class feature are they are.
Actually, they probably don't need Mighty Rage either, seen as their bloodline already gives the class a capstone ability.
Rage Powers are really good. Supertition and Beast Totem are obvious examples, but even without them, we still have stuff like Strength Surge, Come and Get Me, Clear Mind, Knock Down, Reckless Abandon and Unexpected Strike.
Besides, Barbarians don't need to invest in Cha.
Barbarians don't, But Bloodrager's do.
Yes, the aberrant bloodrager with a reach weapon would have a 15-foot doughnut hole to worry about.
Well...wow.
Just realized this class would work well to represent a Claymore...
Haha. Quite right.
Loving this class more and more.
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The blood rager is not a hybrid class. It's an archetype. An alternate class at best.
Its rage power comes from Sorcerous Bloodlines, hence why its a hybrid class and has lesser capabilities of casting spells. This class has a huge amount of potential for those of us who want to use the bloodline concept in a melee character. A dragon bloodline rager is just begging to be a Dragon Disciple.
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Even worse, it's strictly more powerful than the barbarian, since the Bloodline gives 6 powers and 5 bonus feats, and the spells are easily worth more than three or four Rage Power. And many of the Bloodline Powers are way better than Rage powers.
...And that is why we playtest, etc; it's not just to fix weaknesses, but also classes being overpowered.
The ship has sailed on the "there's already an archetype for this" stuff.
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You can try to bury the truth but I'll say it again.
It has all of the barbarians abilities, only trading Rage for a Rage wjhere he can cast spells, and trading Trap Sense and the Rage Powers for the Bloodline, the Eschew Materials feat and the Spells.
Even worse, it's strictly more powerful than the barbarian, since the Bloodline gives 6 powers and 5 bonus feats, and the spells are easily worth more than three or four Rage Power. And many of the Bloodline Powers are way better than Rage powers.Man, I never imagined that I would have to defend the barbarian, of all classes.
This guy has obviously not seen a fully built superstition spell sundering pouncing Barbarian. Because that thing is monstrous and impossible to balance against.
I encourage you to go on the boards and look up a 20th level Barbarian build and you will see that the Bloodrager hardly compares.
You can try to bury the truth but I'll say it again.
It has all of the barbarians abilities, only trading Rage for a Rage wjhere he can cast spells, and trading Trap Sense and the Rage Powers for the Bloodline, the Eschew Materials feat and the Spells.
Even worse, it's strictly more powerful than the barbarian, since the Bloodline gives 6 powers and 5 bonus feats, and the spells are easily worth more than three or four Rage Power. And many of the Bloodline Powers are way better than Rage powers.Man, I never imagined that I would have to defend the barbarian, of all classes.
This guy has obviously not seen a fully built superstition spell sundering pouncing Barbarian. Because that thing is monstrous and impossible to balance against.
I encourage you to go on the boards and look up a 20th level Barbarian build and you will see that the Bloodrager hardly compares.
hey, I made one of those a while back, and it isnt even the best example of it--though it gets pounce/spellsunder/and disgusting DR.
AS I been reading this thread two abilities popped in my head that, imo with be awesome for a bloodrager.
- an offensive aura based on bloodline when in bloodrage, either damage or a debuff for people within 5 ft or maybe those attacking the BR in melee. It will give a magic/rage feel. Fire, ice, and lighting are obvious things,but there are others Aberrant could me numerous mawed tentacle and fey could dazzle enemies with otherworldly beauty for example.
- The second is might be better as a feat or two. When a enemy caster cast a spell on the BR during a bloodrage, the caster takes damage or some other penalty. Maybe only will based spells trigger it or those that target the BR directly. The damage can be based on the spell level. We can use this instead of a good will save. A bloodragers fury transcends the physical and infuses the essence of magic.
I am also all for giving options to increase the blaster aspect of the class.
Barbarians don't, But Bloodrager's do.I'd just remove the Barbarian's secondary abilities but keep the Bloodrager's spell casting and Bloodrage class feature are they are.
Actually, they probably don't need Mighty Rage either, seen as their bloodline already gives the class a capstone ability.
Rage Powers are really good. Supertition and Beast Totem are obvious examples, but even without them, we still have stuff like Strength Surge, Come and Get Me, Clear Mind, Knock Down, Reckless Abandon and Unexpected Strike.
Besides, Barbarians don't need to invest in Cha.
That was my point.
Hello, I have some questions!
A phrase make me doubt about the spellcasting when the bloodrager is out of bloodrage.
this one: The
bloodrager does not need to prepare these spells in
advance; he can cast them at any point during a bloodrage
(as per his blood casting ability), assuming he hasn’t yet
used up his spells per day for that level.So the bloodrager can cast out of bloodrage or not ???
What is his spellcaster level? His level or , like the paladin, his level-3, this is not spécified in the playtest.
Does he must be in bloodrage to use some bloodrage power?
It's spécified in some bloodrage power but it does'nt in others onesexample:Abnormal Reach (Su): At 4th level, your reach increases
by 5 feet.Tail Slap (Su): At 16th level, when you bloodrage, you
grow a long tail. You can use this tail as a secondary
attack when you use your claws, or an off-hand attack
when you use a weapon (it’s considered a light weapon for
this purpose). The tail slap deals 1d6 points of damage
(1d4 if you’re Small). The tail also grants you a +4 bonus
to CMD against bull rush, overrun, reposition, and trip
attempts.Edit: Sorry about my poor english but i am a french-speaker
Bloodragers can cast out of bloodrage. Its been pointed out by the developers many times but i understand if you havent read all of the pages. Also the devs said that bloodragers are actually the exception and that they have full castor levels unlike the paladin and the ranger. And im prettey sure you need to be in bloodrage to use those powers.
Of course the uber barbarian build is still uber, and yes I've built enough barbarians to know the ins and outs of the class instead of only blatting about the one uberbuild like some kind of sheep.
You can't balance an alternate class based on the best build the class has to offer, same way you can't balance against the worst build. That is class design 101.
Okay people, look at a bloodline, any bloodline, tell me if any of those six powers the bloodline has is not equivalent or in most cases superior to most rage powers.
On top of that you get 5 bonus feats, and while they're not very good feats, getting Improved Initiative, Toughness and Iron Will as bonus is pretty good.
And while the spell list is not very good, it still has a lot of good buffs like Enlarge Person, Blur, Haste and Greater Invisibility and some good blasts like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Shout and Scorching Ray and some nice utility with Mount, Fly and Gltterdust.
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That was my point.Barbarians don't, But Bloodrager's do.I'd just remove the Barbarian's secondary abilities but keep the Bloodrager's spell casting and Bloodrage class feature are they are.
Actually, they probably don't need Mighty Rage either, seen as their bloodline already gives the class a capstone ability.
Rage Powers are really good. Supertition and Beast Totem are obvious examples, but even without them, we still have stuff like Strength Surge, Come and Get Me, Clear Mind, Knock Down, Reckless Abandon and Unexpected Strike.
Besides, Barbarians don't need to invest in Cha.
Oh my bad, I misread your post :3
Okay people, look at a bloodline, any bloodline, tell me if any of those six powers the bloodline has is not equivalent or in most cases superior to most rage powers.
On top of that you get 5 bonus feats, and while they're not very good feats, getting Improved Initiative, Toughness and Iron Will as bonus is pretty good.
I think right now I can say pretty confidently that the Draconic, Undead, and Fey Bloodlines are fairly weak when compared to what can be built with a moderately good barbarian build. While an individial power may be stronger than a rage power, keep in mind that standard barbarians get twice as many powers. Plus, generally you have to pick a few weaker rage powers to get the better ones.
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That was my point.Barbarians don't, But Bloodrager's do.I'd just remove the Barbarian's secondary abilities but keep the Bloodrager's spell casting and Bloodrage class feature are they are.
Actually, they probably don't need Mighty Rage either, seen as their bloodline already gives the class a capstone ability.
Rage Powers are really good. Supertition and Beast Totem are obvious examples, but even without them, we still have stuff like Strength Surge, Come and Get Me, Clear Mind, Knock Down, Reckless Abandon and Unexpected Strike.
Besides, Barbarians don't need to invest in Cha.
Actually I'm okay with them having both capstones since you can only use the Bloodline power while in a Bloodrage. Also it's the fact that it's the 20th level capstone, which no matter what kind of game your playing in will take awhile to achieve, if you even get there in the campaign's lifetime. Then there's the fact if you take a 1 level dip in anything you are completely cut off from that capstone.
You can't balance an alternate class based on the best build the class has to offer, same way you can't balance against the worst build. That is class design 101.
Okay, now remember you said this. It will be important later.
Okay people, look at a bloodline, any bloodline, tell me if any of those six powers the bloodline has is not equivalent or in most cases superior to most rage powers.
Well, it's 6 bloodline powers that scale versus 10+ rage powers that sometimes do and sometimes don't I don't think individual comparison is fair.
That being said, yes certain rage powers are very strong even if you go beyond staples like Superstition, Come and Get Me or Greater Beast Totem.
It's worth noting that this is going to be a big book of character options. Meaning that in all likelihood many of the bloodline power you see will probably get some form of equivalent in rage powers.
On top of that you get 5 bonus feats, and while they're not very good feats, getting Improved Initiative, Toughness and Iron Will as bonus is pretty good.
Those are nice but not generally game breaking. Toughness really just makes up for the smaller hit die, Iron Will is a poor substitute to superstition, and Improved Initiative is nice but of limited use to a class like this.
Ultimately all they really make up for is missing rage powers.
And while the spell list is not very good, it still has a lot of good buffs like Enlarge Person, Blur, Haste and Greater Invisibility and some good blasts like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Shout and Scorching Ray and some nice utility with Mount, Fly and Gltterdust.
Okay so if the spell list isn't very good and the feats aren't very good we can only determine that the only thing we have going for ourselves is bloodlines which I've already stated aren't quite as powerful as 10 combined rage powers.
What is particularly important to note about the spells is the delayed nature of them. This is not a paladin or ranger who can expect some spells to come earlier than normal. These are magus spells which come, well, when the blood rager gets them long after everyone else is casting them. What good is fly or haste to me at 10th level a full 5 levels after everyone else has started using them? Being able to cast them myself? Doesn't seem all that great when I'm built to hurt things not cast spells at them.
So, until you can come up with more concrete reasoning as to why you believe what you do I don't think there's much else to add.
What was the rationale behind giving them full caster levels, as opposed to pallys and rangers? Seems unecessary.
Its to see wether the bloodrager needs them or not which is why we are supposed to playtest it out.
What was the rationale behind giving them full caster levels, as opposed to pallys and rangers? Seems unecessary.
Not making their spells useless during the early levels perhaps?
What was the rationale behind giving them full caster levels, as opposed to pallys and rangers? Seems unecessary.Not making their spells useless during the early levels perhaps?
Yea, exactly. It seems that unlike Paladins and Rangers, Bloodragers will be expected to use blasting spells to some degree. At least it looks that way since they have the Magus spell list. A loss of 3 casters levels means 3d6 less damage... which can easily be enough to make blasting seem pointless compared to simply melee attacking.