In fact with open slot prepping which any prepared caster can do (and honestly they should prevent Arcanists from doing) this weakness is reduced to spending five minutes carefully studying a book. That's really about it.
People too often forget you don't have to prep all your spells in the morning.
More than that our friend the arcanist really isn't casting "more" spells than a wizard. Mainly because he's not a specialist so he doesn't really get any extra spells over the wizard or sorcerer.
I do agree that the class should not have open slots.
Ok, I've been silent long enough.
So when I originally heard about this class, I was a bit worried, and after reading it, my fears were confirmed. I hate prepared casters. I have never seen them have the right spell for the right time, and on that 1 out of 10 chance that they do, they need multiple of it, and they don't have it. So I've never fully understood just why people think that Wizards are so overpowered when they are really lack luster.
But that's besides the point. I think that the Arcanist is severely broken due to the way it uses spells. So let me break this down Barney style and then you can go about your business.
Let's take a Sorcerer first. What would happen if you gave a core Sorcerer that ability to prepare spells per day like a Wizard, and gave him the ability to prepare spells with metamagic feats to cast them using a normal casting time? In addition to how he casts spell spontaneously and uses metamagic on the fly? He would completely and utterly overshadow the Wizard and there would be no point for the Wizard to exist. Mind you, we are only talking about spells now, not other class abilities (which if you are playing a Sorcerer or a Wizard, your big ability is casting spells, and I believe the bloodlines and school specializations for the most part are lacking).
Now let's take the Wizard. What would happen if you gave the Wizard to cast spells spontaneously and use metamagic feats on the fly? In addition to gaining spells like a Wizard and preparing spells like a Wizard? He would completely and utterly overshadow the Sorcerer. I don't think anyone would argue this. Even with (base table progression) 2 spells per day behind the core Sorcerer, he would be far superior and nobody would EVER play a sorcerer. There's been COUNTLESS forum discussions about how people say the Wizard can cast more spells per day than the Sorcerer with the aid of magic items and such, not to mention all the other options Paizo and 3pp have put out for Wizards, making them even more appealing than the Sorcerer. Spontaneous casting is REALLY GOOD! That's why you have to take all kinds of feats and classes and such to get even a fraction of spontaneous casting on your Wizard.
So if you can agree with me the a Wizard who gains 2 spells of any level per class level, prepares spells, casts spontaneously, can use metamagic on the fly AND prepare metamagic spells, and use magic items that grant more spell slots per day is overpowered, then why can you not see that the Arcanist is broken? He gets one more spell per day than the Wizard, and can do everything this pimped out Wizard can do! He outshines both classes because he can do what both classes pimped out in my above examples can do. Especially if the Arcanist can use pearls of power. If a Wizard using these can have more spells per day than a Sorcerer (as many on here claim), how is the Arcanist not going to do the same thing?
This by itself, without adding any other class abilities, is broken. That's why the two weren't mixed, and if they were through various other 3.0 and 3.5 products, their spell progression and spells per day were even more limited. Limiting the Arcanist by giving him the spell progression as a Sorcerer is not enough. The Sorcerer is able to cast spontaneously but gets higher level spells a level later than the Wizard. The Wizard gets spells one level earlier than the Sorcerer, but must prepare them ahead of time, and if he doesn't know what to expect, this isn't really much of an advantage. That why I believe prepared and spontaneous casters balance out and don't overshadow one another.
The Arcanist almost seems as a way to bridge the two to make a far superior spellcasting class and the other two I'm afraid would not be needed. Either make them prepared but give them access to a bloodline, or make them spontaneous and let them switch out one spell of every level they cast per day (Super Genius Games had a feat in a Sorcerer specific book called Sorcerous Sideboard that did this exact thing).
I don't need to have playtest this class to know this is a problem. Just as I didn't have to playtest the Gunslinger to know that allowing guns to hit touch AC and making them the core weapon of a class with fighter BAB was bad. I just don't see how the developers didn't see this when making the class. Both myself and my group thinks that this class makes Wizards and Sorcerers obsolete and we will probably be banning this class because of that, just how we ban using spellpoints or psionics in games where we have spells per day casters. It overshadows what other classes can do. If a class overshadows another, whats the point in having the sub par classes in the first place?
There's my rant. Call me out if you want, but I probably won't respond because I wasted too much time on the Gunslinger playtest typing up ideas and ranting and none of the things I thought should be changed were changed, and so now I'm stuck with the core Gunslinger (which I think is garbage) and that time was for nothing in my opinion. This will just be a class that if it doesn't get changed, I will just forget it existed or wait til somebody outside of Paizo comes up with something better (like a good hearted gentleman did for the Gunslinger found here).
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The Arcanist is actually my favorite of the new classes. It can be thought of as Paizo's take on Arcana Evolved's spellcasting classes. I think it is a very nice system to have a caster who can prepare spells out of a list that is theoretically but not practically unlimited but who does not need to decide in advance how often he thinks he will need to cast each spell.
I would very much like to see this mechanic extended to other spellcasting classes.
Adding more flavor to this class is an option, but with their spellcasting designed the way it is (I quite like it btw), there's not much room for anything else.
Options:
Someone upthread suggested making the class dependent on Int & Cha for spells. So you could reduce the number of prepared spells per day (and add Int for bonus spells to make up for some of it) and add Cha for bonus spells cast per day. That way your incentivized to have a decent Int & Cha for your Arcanist. DC for resisting your spells could be based off the lower of the two stats too.
Scribe Scroll at 3rd level is a bit yawn (I think). swap it out for the character's Bloodine Arcana. The stat swapping ones could be a pain, but hey, shrug.
Allow Blood focus to temporarily access bloodline abilities (as it already does) and/or one Arcane School abilities.
The other option would be to strip out Blood focus & install something else, maybe like Magus Arcana where you select from a list every 3rd level past 3rd (instead of scribe scroll again).
Definitely needs a bit of spice though I think.
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I think too much focus was made in making sure the spell per day and spellbook weren't way too powerful, and no enough was given to the other class abilities.
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I will say there is a little something off in thinking about the spellcasting potential... might need some trimming on the spells prepped and spell slots per day.
Though the second thought is how sorcerer do have spells known beyond their chart, and wizards do get more spells per day than their chart. It is a balancing act. I still don't think it is an unsolvable mechanic though I would consider at least bringing the spell slots per day down to the wizards per day progression chart.
Aside from that though I really don't think it is a world ending class by any means. Certain items may already let my sorcerer "prep" level 4 and lower spells. Lets me do a ton more in game, but still limited by my spells per day after all.
I've been trying to think of something the class could use instead of the blood focus though. Best idea I had was to try and tie a school of magic to a bloodlinish thing.
Something like a conjuration bloodline, which would be flavored as some connection to an outsider subtype in your ancestry and grants more generic conjuration benefits when dealing with that specific type of outsider.
I don't think the benefits have to be huge either, just little things that make using spells closer in them to your ancestry that little bit better or easier to cast, and some reason why being straight Arcanist would be better than Arcanist/(insert full caster prestige class here)
I do have one question as far as Society Play is concerned...
I've never gotten to "playtest" anything in Society play. I saw that the playtesting is closed as of Dec 17th, does this mean if i say make an arcanist for societ play i can no longer play it in society until the Advanced Class Guide comes out? or am i allowed to continue to play it?
You can only play what the handbook allows, unless Mike Brock says otherwise. I would post in the PFS Section to see if he is going to make any exceptions.
Ok, I've been silent long enough.
So when I originally heard about this class, I was a bit worried, and after reading it, my fears were confirmed. I hate prepared casters. I have never seen them have the right spell for the right time, and on that 1 out of 10 chance that they do, they need multiple of it, and they don't have it. So I've never fully understood just why people think that Wizards are so overpowered when they are really lack luster.
I have never seen this except with brand new players, and I have ran for several different groups over the years, and this applies to clerics and druids also. They might not have the perfect spell, but they normally at least have a spell that works well enough.
I don't need to have playtest this class to know this is a problem.
All the things you mentioned are theorycrafting and the class is good at metamagic, but those spells lost are going to hurt. Does it look better than a sorcerer? Sure, but if you(general statement) can't even get the right spells when allowed to change spells everyday, and leave spell slots open then this class won't change that. It is not like the class has open access to every spell that is in the spellbook.
So why are you worried about a class that can spontaneously never have the right spell ready?
If you don't respond it is becuase you have nothing legitimate to add, and everyone knows what is OP is subjective, well if they are open-minded that is.
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you know what, screw balance issues: those are almost impossible to fix and can occur to an amazing degree even within one class due to the system mastery of the players involved. This class makes magic more fun and less frustrating, that seems to be good for the game.
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I'm actually surprised with how much I'm digging this class considering how reticent I was about it prior. The class manages to fill this nice niche in between Sorc and Wizard and doesn't really overshadow either thanks to it not being able to completely do the various specializations or bloodline abilities each class has. On top of that it makes for an incredibly interesting metamagic master down the road and I'm actually a fan of the fatigue from over use of blood power since it creates a nice risk reward to going all out with your new shiny ability and helps keep them from being able to use those bloodline powers as often as their sorc brethren would.
As for story I see the arcanist as the guy who's blood wasn't powerful enough to grant him spellcasting on its own so decided to learn wizardry as a way to force it to the surface. The Arcanist is the true master of arcane magic because he has it buried deep down in his blood but had to learn the basics of actual magical theory in order to even be able to tap into it. He is the mage who sees his destiny laid out before him and will not be denied by anything even not having a strong enough blood connection to a powerful force as an obstacle to stop his rise.
I'm really not sure what to think. I might try to play one in PFS, but it's iffy. Like others, I have concerns that it will overshadow the sorcerer (because now you can cast anything, not a limited list) & wizard (because functionally, the wizard has as many spells as the arcanist anyway, since they have to prepare multiples of their go-to spells). At the same time, as others have pointed out, it could become useless with poor preparation. Though if they are allowed to leave "slots open", it could be very dangerous (they prepare their base 4-5 spells they always use, and the rest they prepare when needed).
It's an odd class I'm not quite comfortable with, and I have the very clear impression that this is going to cause a lot of discussion/anger/flamewars. Well, it had been a few weeks since the last cycle of arguments on the forums, so I guess the tide is coming back in.
Plus, the "accoutrements" of the blood focus is kinda boring. I'll have to wait to see what kind of archetypes they give it. This class needs more flavor.
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I think that Jason and many others have pointed out that this class looks GREAT on paper, but plays out slightly different than you expect. Yes, it looks great, the best of both worlds, but practice dictates that it falls flat against that expectation.
Is it more versatile than a sorcerer on a day to day basis? Sure. Is it ever going to cast as many spells as a sorcerer? Not a chance, oh and a sorcerer is going to learn to make the absolute most out of their choices, where an arcanist will pick something and then sometimes use it poorly (You know how it is the first time you cast that complicated spell...you forget something or you fire it off wrong...sorcerers don't often worry about something silly like that, they are the masters of their handful of spells).
Does this class have more spells than a wizard? Well, yes. Is it ever going to have the versatility of a wizard? No, it's not, but it is very, very close. I think that the wizard ends up winning the overall versatility war by having more spells selected (even if they decide to rack several of the same spell) and they have nearly the same number of castings at the end of the day.
That said, both of these comparisons are incomplete because both classes have class abilities that are amazing. Insane in some cases to the point that people will splash one level of the other to get a specific ability. If an ability is so good that you are willing to slow your overall progression, then it is probably worthwhile. Arcanist does not have something you can do that with AND it has nothing that you can splash a couple of levels to get. You will simply stay Arcanist, which is fine, but it isn't screaming "AHHHH, The sky is falling, the sky is falling" like it seems a lot of people are feeling it does.
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All the 'ban it' and 'omg overpowered' stuff is coming from people with no playtest examples posted and no builds posted.
It's the mystic theurge all over again. Sounds super, in reality, not so much.
I agree with this. Once spells are prepared for the day the Arcanist severely lacks in flexibility. My prediction is that it will be very swingy in practice. Very strong in situations where the handful of spells prepared work well, but will struggle when things don't line up right. I still don't particularly like this class, but it is because of this swinginess and general lack of flavor, rather than it being overpowered.
A wizard with a limited bloodline feature, it doesn't get regular uses for some of them, doesn't get the 20th power if a sorcerer regularly does and basically doesn't get any stronger by levelling up. I'm sorry, but why not make a sorcerer archetype that replace its normal spellcasting by a wizard's one?
IMO, give the arcanist more power over the chosen bloodline without limitation, like being able to use a bloodline power more times than usual, grant the permanent powers and increase evenly the bonus granted by the blood focus, like "This adds 1 per 4 levels to the spell’s caster level and DC".
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Allow me to illustrate why this is not "broken"
Level 3 Wizard casts 2nd level spells, Arcanist casts 1st
Level 5 Wizard casts 3rd level spells, Arcanist casts 2nd
Level 7 Wizard casts 4th level spells, Arcanist casts 3rd
Ect-- until 18th level the Arcanist is ALWAYS behind the Wizard on spell level of highest spells.
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I feel like I really love the method for spellcasting, and the slower spell progression is fine.
The thing I'm not a huge fan of is the level 20 ability - mainly because it's just a binary boost at max level, and most games don't reach max level. I'd prefer some scaling thing you can at least see a bit of in most games.
Also, the Bloodline / school thing seems pasted-on to me, as well as the bonus feats.
I'd love to see all the class specials scrapped, and replaced with a Arcane version of the Oracle mysteries system.
1) a sorcerer can take scribe scroll (paying the same scribing costs as an arcanist) AND scribe scroll is banned in PFS play anyways
Sorcerers don't benefit nearly as much from Scribe Scroll. No spontaneous caster does. Not all of us play PFS.
12) arcanists still have to prepare the right spells to maximize useful-ness, other wise they are as hosed as a fire mage against a red dragon
So do Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Witches. They are still the most versatile and powerful classes in the game.
3) they have less prepared spells than a sorcerer has spells known
Not a significant disadvantage. Getting more spells slots is cheap and easy. You get them simply by raising your main attribute, which you'd do anyway. And scrolls more than compensate for this.
4) they have NO access to ANY wizard specialized schools and 90% of all the bloodlines arent nearly as useful to an arcanist as a sorcerer
Guess what never made spell-casters powerful? Class features. Wizards could have zero class features and still be the most versatile class in the game. Hell, even feat selection barely impacts the effectiveness of arcane casters. Their spell-list and access to those spells composes 99% of their power and versatility.
And guess who has the best spell list in the game and access to all of its spells? Wizards and Arcanists. But the Wizard at least has to accurately predict what he'll meet that day. Arcanists? Nope. They have all the advantages of spontaneous casting and none of the shortcomings.5) blood Focus is still LIMITED USE (3+1/2 level, -1 if you want to avoid fatigued), so while sure a +1 to Save DC and CL is awesome (IF youre a blaster), its way less useful for most other builds.. seriously,, what does a diviner, or summoning arcanist need with the +1 save dc?
6) NO, i do not think having a familiar is a serious disadvantage... BUT, if you actually read the post, i said after an arcanist blows his wad of blood focus points he's less useful then a 3.0 sorcerer with no familiar
So don't spend all your class Blood Focus. And you're still better than a Sorcerer in every significant way. Probably better than a Wizard too, unless that Wizard is the King of MinMaxing.
"He sucks when he has no more Blood Focus" makes as much sense as claiming Wizards are weak because they suck when they run out of spells.
7) the arcanist DOES NOT make EITHER sorcerer or wizard obsolete, at ANY level, they are still better over-all than the arcanist... again, arcanists have no access to specialized school abilities or static sorcerer bloodlines abilities or ANY of the bloodline arcana abilities for that matter...
Yes, it does. 1~2 extra spells per day don't come even close to compensate for the absurd amount of versatility this class has. Sorcerers still lag behind Wizards, but they could still claim to do something the Wizard can't. Arcanists, however, slap Sorcerers in the face and make them completely pointless.
This class has all the versatility and raw power of both Wizard and Sorcerer. If the Wizard minmaxes as hell, eh can compete p to high levels, when he too is kicked to the curb.
Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of a class that has both spontaneous and prepared casting, but the way it was done is simply ridiculously broken. Instead of fusing both styles of casting, this guy should have separate spell slots for each of them. It'd be more flavorful, more unique and far more balanced.
IMO Blood Focus needs to be changed completely.
Rather than having the player look over every bloodline and arcane school out there, there should be a list of the Arcanists focus choices, unique to them.
The Blood Focus ability should function like schools or bloodlines, 3+ INT per day, none of this fatigued crap.
I wanna see some flavor along the lines of Bloodlines that are based off schools, and give different powers.
Maybe even don't base them off schools, base them off themes of spellcasting.
Blaster, Summoner, Seer, Terraformer, Morpher, something with undead, etc.
There's a lot you could do with the class that would be a lot less of a pain than having to go through ALL of the wizard schools and Sorcerer bloodline powers.
Also, access to a familiar somehow.
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Hey there folks,
I think a lot of the calls of "overpowered" will play out to be untrue in actual play examples, but I will gladly wait to see those come in (thanks thought to the folks who did some build analysis, we did that work weeks ago when building the class, but at least I dont have to repost it).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Sorry, Jason, but I honestly can't see that happening.
The only way for this class to not be overpowered is if the player is consciously gimping himself hard. Sorcerer have no advantage over this guy, except for 1~2 extra spell slots , but that difference in insignificant given how cheap and easy it is to increase your spell slots and how difficult and expensive it is to get more spells known.
Even Wizards have to be Kings of Foresight and MinMaxing to compete with it. And even then, they are eventually completely outclassed when the Arcanist gets 8~9th level spells. You don't even need minmaxing or system mastery to do that. It's an spontaneous Wizard! Choose decent spells and you can easily overshadow everyone else.
While I love the idea of a class that has both spontaneous and prepared casting, fusing the two casting styles makes for a very powerful, very unbalanced caster. Instead of doing that, The Arcanist should have separate spell slots for each of them. It'd be more flavorful, more unique and much more balanced. Although probably still better than Sorcerers...
Sorcerer spell progression, Wizard spells per day but with spontaneous casting, sorcerer's list of spells known, Int-based casting and 1~2 vancian spell slots per spell level instead of Bloodline/Specializrd School spells would keep its flavor and mechanical niche without completely obsoleting one (possibly two) of the most powerful classes in the game.
First off I'll start with some positives. Generally I really like the classes presented for the ACG. They enable a bunch of character concepts that would have been at best a bit clunky to implement previously. I would even go as far as saying that the 10 new classes could form an alternative core that might even be better than the actual core in some ways (splitting the Rogue as a concept in to Investigator and Slayer for instance, most people I know would rather be focusing on one of those roles or the other in my experience).
Having said all of this, the Arcanist is the one class that troubles me. Not necessarily for the reasons that some others have posted. I don't believe it obsoletes the Wizard or the Sorcerer, as from a crunch perspective there are going to be times where any of the 3 classes might be the optimal choice. I also don't necessarily think it is over powered (though what it can do with metamagic may prove to be, we will see how the playtest goes!).
The problem I have is two-fold:
1) Mechanically I really don't think there was any necessity for this class. The design space between Wizard and Sorcerer is incredibly slim. What Paizo have done to help give the Sorcerer some real identity is great, but it took some hard work to even get that far. And now a new class is forced between the two where there really isn't room for one. I think the issue is that all three classes focus on full casting arcane spells from the same list. Any other mechanics added are gravy, but won't define the class. This is in stark contrast to how the other 9 hybrid classes feel.
2) From a fluff perspective it does not open up any space for new character concepts. Anything that could have conceptually been an Arcanist could easily have either been a Wizard or a Sorcerer.
I realise it is almost certainly too late to completely redesign a class completely, but I felt these issues with the class needed to be registered. There are definitely interesting ways that arcane casting could have been hybrid-ed in to other classes that hasn't really be covered with Pathfinder so far (Sorcerer/Rogue doing stealthy, manipulative stuff anyone?), and that feels like a little bit of a missed opportunity in the circumstances.
As I say though, I don't want to be too much of a downer, I am loving the rest of what I have seen!
Allow me to illustrate why this is not "broken"
Level 3 Wizard casts 2nd level spells, Arcanist casts 1st
Level 5 Wizard casts 3rd level spells, Arcanist casts 2nd
Level 7 Wizard casts 4th level spells, Arcanist casts 3rd
Ect-- until 18th level the Arcanist is ALWAYS behind the Wizard on spell level of highest spells.
Sorcerers/oracles are under powered? I don't think that's the best way to look at it. That's actually sort of false, and its not why spontaneous casters are considered a tier lower than prep. Its about the potential to have whatever you need and change it up each day. Besides, spells scale, so once you do get the power its just as good as the guy to the right of you casting it.
Something to think about is you won't ever have something the wizard/sorcerer can't have. You just have the power to change it up and use your spells more easily and with less prep pain. Potentially, that's crazy powerful. Potentially.
From what I have seen, I wonder if the niche for Arcanist wouldn't be the idea of spell flexibility. The idea of "I can have a spell for that!". I'm thinking along the lines of the feat from Pathfinder Society Primer, Planned spontaneity.
Perhaps adding the ability for the Arcanist to switch out spells prepared by using blood focus or some other x/day. The weakness of the class is that if you have the wrong spells prepared, then you're in trouble. Well, maybe the best route is to fix that. Wizards can prepare empty spells slots in 15 minutes (5 minutes if you have the discovery). Perhaps the Arcanist can prepare spells in even less time. You could make it a minute, or even less. This would allow the Arcanist to leave spell slots open and prepare on the fly as he learns throughout the day what spells he needs.
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Here is my fluff perspective.
Headmaster: So we have our new students do we? What do we have in store for us this time.
Professor: Well to start, we have three candidates from the same family all of them have a strong gift of magic and suitable for training.
Headmaster: Good enough, what can you tell me about them.
Professor: Well to start there is the oldest boy,...very smart, strong mathematically and incredibly focused. His gift for memorization is very strong.
Headmaster: Sounds like a perfect candidate for wizardry. simply done...
Professor: Very true sir, it will be easy to place him with a mentor..., then there is the youngest girl. She is a natural talent, very intuitive by nature and gifted with some otherworldly gifts. What she lacks in focus, she more than makes up in will.
Headmaster: A sorcerer then...why present them like this to me,... are you being cagy on purpose?
Professor: Oh no, by all means no... it's just the middle child, he's well he's very bright, but isn't as focus as his older brother, and he lacks the will of his sister... but he has the gift...
Headmaster: one foot in each world, eh?
Professor: I'm not sure I follow, it seems to me that even though he's suited for magic, he's bound to not master either...
Headmaster: And like most middle children, he should bother to try and be either...
Professor: So your saying that we should cast him aside? I'm sure that would be devastating to the family, to say nothing of how the children would react...
Headmaster: I'm saying nothing of the sort. What you have here is an Arcanist. Someone who doesn't quite need all the focus and will to be a very potent caster. He can be more versatile is more ways than a Wizard or Sorcerer can imagine. Where you see weakness, I assure you I see strength.
Professor: Really Headmaster? Surely you are jesting. I've read about Arcanists for quite some time, but I have never seen one successful enough to be legendary, and for the exception of this boy, I doubt that I have seen one at all.
Headmaster: One need not be legendary to be successful my good sir...I imagine that you will be seeing more and more of them very soon. I think you would be surprised as to the amount of Arcanists that are out there. Tell the children that we will be admitting all three to the academy.
Professor: But where will we find a mentor for the middle boy?
Headmaster: Isn't that obvious, it will be me...
The more I think about it, the more I think tying the Arcanist to the wizard schools was a mistake. Wizard schools pretty strongly reflect a wizard's special training orientation. An arcanist really a wizard-like character who has a special reserve of magic power coming from a sorcerer-like heritage. Saying you are a necromancy/undead bloodline arcanist makes no sense. Saying you are a (pick one school)/arcane bloodline arcanist makes no sense. The words exist, but when you string them together, they don't add up to a concept. What the heck is a necromancy/elemental bloodline arcanist anyway?
The big problem I see is that sorcerers, with their custom skill lists, bonus spells, bonus feats, and numerous level-by-level powers, plus their arcana, already do everything you'd normally expect with bloodlines.
I propose that the arcanist should start with the new spellcasting mechanic, grant a bloodline's arcana and class skills, treat the bloodline spells as always prepared, and start the arcanist with an arcane bond or arcane bond replacement ability. Then, at successive levels, you could grab bloodline powers, an open buffet of wizard school abilities, and special arcanist powers as selections you get at select levels. You could choose an arcanist "talent" or a bloodline power (of your bloodline) or school ability (any school) of your level or less. The rules should spell out how the arcanist benefits from bloodline or school abilities that affect metamagics.
Guess what never made spell-casters powerful? Class features. Wizards could have zero class features and still be the most versatile class in the game. Hell, even feat selection barely impacts the effectiveness of arcane casters. Their spell-list and access to those spells composes 99% of their power and versatility.
Well, no.
Versatility belongs to clerics and druids. Their effective spellbook gets bigger the more sources are allowed.
If you left the wizard completely blank sorcerer would win out purely because a sorcerer will have more spells known than a wizard in his spellbook.
And again this so called weakness of wizards isn't one. Especially at high levels where the wizard can afford staves or a library of scrolls at his disposal. Or, yes, pearls of power as well.
And of course the wizard doesn't have to prep all his slots. Only those he's guaranteed to use, likely those that will have the most common use. However those specialist spells that are only circumstantially useful can be memorized when the Wizard knows what's coming. And given the wide variety of scouting options available to him (familiars for example) than the wizard has a pretty good chance of filling those slots with soemthign meaningful.
That's something to consider, pearls of power don't work with the arcanist. So the only time the arcanist can feasibly be stronger than the wizard is in the mid levels where such pricey equipment might be slightly out of reach of the wizard.
I'd also like to point out that a sorcerer is going to end up with more spells known than an arcanist will with their spells prepped. Their is currently no way to boost the number of spells prepped but several ways to boost spells known.
But really I'm going to stop bothering to try. You have made up your mind at this juncture and nothing short of actual play will convince you. And given that you have determined to ban this class now and forever that's a tall order. So let's get on to more important things.
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I've had a number of people ask me for my thoughts on this class.
I may make one in the near future to try out, and won't know much until then. I can honestly say that I was NOT thinking that it invalidates the other two classes until I read a few posts in that thread.
I'm still not certain I believe that, as I've long since learned to avoid knee-jerk reactions with new material. I prefer to create it, play it, THEN judge; and I encourage you all to do the same.
I still remember when Wizards of the Coast released the Mystic Theurge. Everyone was saying it was overpowered and broken and invalidated both the wizard and the cleric.
How many people are still saying that today? lol.
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I've seen this alluded to higher in the thread, but I wanted to expand on it, the bonus feats, I would like to see the bonus feats expanded to include:
- metamagic
- item creation
- bonus feats associate with blood line
- spell mastery
- eschew material
- * Focus (spell focus, greater spell focus, elemental focus greater elemental focus)
- arcane discovery feats
In essence mash up of the sorcerer and wizard bonus feat lists, not just a neutered subset.
More generally, I really like the class, I disagree with peoples opinion that the abilities are lackluster, they have a unique feel without being powerful, because that is balanced by the outstanding versatility of the being able to swap out your spells know from a spell book daily. The versatility will be a boon in society play!
Questions:
1) Can I leave a spells known slot open and then prepare later in the day into that slot?
1 b)and would that preparation be improved by the arcane discovery that lets you prepare rapidly?
2) If returned from the dead, or just choosing not to prepare does my spell load out stay they same as the day prior with 8 hours rest rejuvenating the slots? Or must I spend the 1 hour on top of the 8?
I've had a number of people ask me for my thoughts on this class.
I may make one in the near future to try out, and won't know much until then. I can honestly say that I was NOT thinking that it invalidates the other two classes until I read a few posts in that thread.
I'm still not certain I believe that, as I've long since learned to avoid knee-jerk reactions with new material. I prefer to create it, play it, THEN judge; and I encourage you all to do the same.
I still remember when Wizards of the Coast released the Mystic Theurge. Everyone was saying it was overpowered and broken and invalidated both the wizard and the cleric.
How many people are still saying that today? lol.
This is the third time in playtest discussions someone I never agree with has surprised me.
- how does the dragon disciple's "blood of dragons" ability interact with an arcanists blood focus? does it grant the standard bloodline abilities as a sorcerer of your dragon disciple level, or does it somehow stack levels with blood focus? if the later, how does that work?The Arcanist does not qualify you for Dragon Disciple. Here's why. Check this prerequisite
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Arcanists prepare their spells, to a Dragon Disciple academy, they're just another type of wizard.
but you can easily qualify with a racial SLA (or a dip in bard or summoner) and there's no language in the DD spellcasting section that would stop an arcanist from gaining spellcasting through the PrC...
Technically, under the New World Order, any wizard with a SLA from their school probably qualifies for DD.
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I've had a number of people ask me for my thoughts on this class.
I may make one in the near future to try out, and won't know much until then. I can honestly say that I was NOT thinking that it invalidates the other two classes until I read a few posts in that thread.
I'm still not certain I believe that, as I've long since learned to avoid knee-jerk reactions with new material. I prefer to create it, play it, THEN judge; and I encourage you all to do the same.
I still remember when Wizards of the Coast released the Mystic Theurge. Everyone was saying it was overpowered and broken and invalidated both the wizard and the cleric.
How many people are still saying that today? lol.
I can appreciate the sentiment but do recall that Mystic Theurge has a few problems going for it that Arcanist doesn't. Notably:
DAD - Theurge needs two attributes to cast unless you're Theurging Wizard and Archivist.
No Class Features - I don't need to elaborate on this one.
Lose Your Nines - You miss out on ninth level casting.
Arcanist, on the other hand, has real class features, unparalleled metamagic access (in a system that's already gone out of its way to give access to metamagic reducers), powerful versatility, single-attribute dependency and access to ninth level spells. It's a very different beast.
What you left out in your comparison is the Mystic Theurge's access to both Arcane and Divine spells. That's the whole point of the PrC, it's for someone who's multi-classing as an arcane and divine caster.I've had a number of people ask me for my thoughts on this class.
I may make one in the near future to try out, and won't know much until then. I can honestly say that I was NOT thinking that it invalidates the other two classes until I read a few posts in that thread.
I'm still not certain I believe that, as I've long since learned to avoid knee-jerk reactions with new material. I prefer to create it, play it, THEN judge; and I encourage you all to do the same.
I still remember when Wizards of the Coast released the Mystic Theurge. Everyone was saying it was overpowered and broken and invalidated both the wizard and the cleric.
How many people are still saying that today? lol.
I can appreciate the sentiment but do recall that Mystic Theurge has a few problems going for it that Arcanist doesn't. Notably:
DAD - Theurge needs two attributes to cast unless you're Theurging Wizard and Archivist.
No Class Features - I don't need to elaborate on this one.
Lose Your Nines - You miss out on ninth level casting.
Arcanist, on the other hand, has real class features, unparalleled metamagic access (in a system that's already gone out of its way to give access to metamagic reducers), powerful versatility, single-attribute dependency and access to ninth level spells. It's a very different beast.
It's true, but that doesn't do as much good as you might think; it doesn't improve or adjust your action economy. Yeah, sure, additional options is nice, but...divine and arcane lists have a lot of functional overlap, which is why divine and arcane casters can share Tier 1 status. Cleric and Wizard, Wizard and Druid, Cleric and Sorcerer, etc have similar capabilities and having access to both at once only fills in very minor holes on either side.
I've had a number of people ask me for my thoughts on this class.
I may make one in the near future to try out, and won't know much until then. I can honestly say that I was NOT thinking that it invalidates the other two classes until I read a few posts in that thread.
I'm still not certain I believe that, as I've long since learned to avoid knee-jerk reactions with new material. I prefer to create it, play it, THEN judge; and I encourage you all to do the same.
I still remember when Wizards of the Coast released the Mystic Theurge. Everyone was saying it was overpowered and broken and invalidated both the wizard and the cleric.
How many people are still saying that today? lol.
I can appreciate the sentiment but do recall that Mystic Theurge has a few problems going for it that Arcanist doesn't. Notably:
DAD - Theurge needs two attributes to cast unless you're Theurging Wizard and Archivist.
No Class Features - I don't need to elaborate on this one.
Lose Your Nines - You miss out on ninth level casting.
Arcanist, on the other hand, has real class features, unparalleled metamagic access (in a system that's already gone out of its way to give access to metamagic reducers), powerful versatility, single-attribute dependency and access to ninth level spells. It's a very different beast.
I think this is an issue of "looks good on paper" and that is exactly what Ravingdork pointed out with his Mystic Thurge example in his post. I personally don't think that when actual characters hit the table, that the Arcanist is going to invalidate or be the obvious best choice between wizard, sorcerer, and arcanist. I want to wait until I see builds in play before passing negative judgement.
You do point out metamagic, and that is the one piece that I want to see in builds, this is what could tip the balance. The spellcasting setup seems to be what most are concerned about, I think metamagic is going to play more heavily in the discussion.
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What practice are you referring to? You have extensive practice with this class already huh?It matches and exceeds the wizard's versatility. Why?
Well, it might have a smaller array of spells it could cast in...
The practice of running combats all night last night of varying levels. Running several "same day" combats to see how they hold up over a few combats and then leveling them up several levels and trying again. I had encounters prepped and maps ready Monday night, waiting for the release. Extensive? No. Actual practice...yes.
The practice of running combats all night last night of varying levels. Running several "same day" combats to see how they hold up over a few combats and then leveling them up several levels and trying again. I had encounters prepped and maps ready Monday night, waiting for the release. Extensive? No. Actual practice...yes.
What practice are you referring to? You have extensive practice with this class already huh?It matches and exceeds the wizard's versatility. Why?
Well, it might have a smaller array of spells it could cast in...
If all you're testing them in is combat, you might have your problem.