Psionics and Pathfinder, New Quote from The Lead Designer


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Hey guys,

This topic comes up fairly often, so I figured I'd spread the word on this new tidbit that I hadn't seen elsewhere. Since this isn't about Dreamscarred Press' material primarily, I didn't post it in the Compatible Products forum.

Question wrote:
Psionics has been well covered by third-party publishers like Dreamscarred Press. Is that a subject that you can see Paizo tackling at some point?
Jason Bulmahn wrote:


Personally, I like what Dreamscarred has done with psionics, and I wouldn’t want to come in and do the exact same thing. I think if Paizo ever decides to look into psionics, we’ll go in a different direction. It’s not currently in our plans, but I wouldn’t rule it out in the future.

Often times, people wonder if they'd just use DSP's work, and this lends more support to the idea, often espoused by Mr. James Jacobs, that Paizo would go its own way, rather than using Dreamscarred Press' material.

But in other news, the lead designer likes Psionics Unleashed, so there's that :)

From this interview at ENWorld.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This really is the exact same thing that Jacobs and others have said on the forums. It's just a repetition on a more public venue.


Yep. Just from the lead designer, who would actually be deciding that sort of thing :)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd like to see a partnership arise beyond the normal 3PP partnership for Paizo and DSP to collaberate on new archtypes, classes, and PrC's when needed for any upcomming AP's regarding their psionic place on Golarion (I forget the name). That would rock much.

Liberty's Edge

A while back one of the devs (I think it was Mr. Jacobs) talked briefly about this subject when I posed the question of whether Paizo would ever do psionics. This was before I was aware of DSP's Psionics Unleashed though it was this thread that I was informed of it. The response was something along the lines of stating that there were no plans to do so. However, if the ever delved deeper into Numeria it would be a project they would strongly consider, but that was unlikely to happen any time soon. However, now that we have Iron Gods on the horizon I wonder if something is in development behind the scenes or if they have decided to do something a little different.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I just found the thread and no devs made any comments one way or another. It was Cheapy who said Numeria.

Might we see Psionics soon?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

To be fair, I say Numeria quite often.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joshua Goudreau wrote:

A while back one of the devs (I think it was Mr. Jacobs) talked briefly about this subject when I posed the question of whether Paizo would ever do psionics. This was before I was aware of DSP's Psionics Unleashed though it was this thread that I was informed of it. The response was something along the lines of stating that there were no plans to do so. However, if the ever delved deeper into Numeria it would be a project they would strongly consider, but that was unlikely to happen any time soon. However, now that we have Iron Gods on the horizon I wonder if something is in development behind the scenes or if they have decided to do something a little different.

EDIT:

Nevermind, I just found the thread and no devs made any comments one way or another. It was Cheapy who said Numeria.

Might we see Psionics soon?

It's pretty much clear that the Creative Director prefers an alternate approach that he has tentatively labled "psychic magic". It would be something completely different than Dreamscarred's rethread of the old 3.5 system, but could easily be used alongside it.

Liberty's Edge

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Most of their comments regarding Psionics and the Pathfinder setting have tied Psionics to Vuldra, rather than Numeria (i.e. if they ever do a Vuldra campaign book, psionics would go hand in hand with that).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Robert Little wrote:
Most of their comments regarding Psionics and the Pathfinder setting have tied Psionics to Vuldra, rather than Numeria (i.e. if they ever do a Vuldra campaign book, psionics would go hand in hand with that).

If it goes the way that that many seem to be talking about, we'll have to get used to the term psychic magic instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not the least factor is that if Paizo uses DSP Psionics, that's a significant number of books NOT sold by Paizo compared to if they write their own Psychic Magic system. Imagine if all the Mythic content Paizo got to make was the Wrath of the Righteous AP and someone else made Mythic Adventures and the other tie-in products. Not as compelling a business decision.

Paizo has a history of doing products that synergize heavily. I honestly think that's the killer factor that precludes them ever adopting DSP Psionics. That there are no psionic advocates at Paizao doesn't help but the idea that it's a worse business plan is probably fatal.

Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.


Anguish wrote:

Not the least factor is that if Paizo uses DSP Psionics, that's a significant number of books NOT sold by Paizo compared to if they write their own Psychic Magic system. Imagine if all the Mythic content Paizo got to make was the Wrath of the Righteous AP and someone else made Mythic Adventures and the other tie-in products. Not as compelling a business decision.

Paizo has a history of doing products that synergize heavily. I honestly think that's the killer factor that precludes them ever adopting DSP Psionics. That there are no psionic advocates at Paizao doesn't help but the idea that it's a worse business plan is probably fatal.

Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.

I don't necessarily agree. Sure, to an extent it is more beneficial to have their own Psionics system, but it would not all be lost when it comes down to not having products.

A psionic Bestiary, new APs, and even a splatbook that spliced already existing classes with psionic archetypes, there's plenty of product they could sell if they adopted the pre existing system and moved forward from there.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Anguish wrote:

Not the least factor is that if Paizo uses DSP Psionics, that's a significant number of books NOT sold by Paizo compared to if they write their own Psychic Magic system. Imagine if all the Mythic content Paizo got to make was the Wrath of the Righteous AP and someone else made Mythic Adventures and the other tie-in products. Not as compelling a business decision.

Paizo has a history of doing products that synergize heavily. I honestly think that's the killer factor that precludes them ever adopting DSP Psionics. That there are no psionic advocates at Paizao doesn't help but the idea that it's a worse business plan is probably fatal.

Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.

I don't necessarily agree. Sure, to an extent it is more beneficial to have their own Psionics system, but it would not all be lost when it comes down to not having products.

A psionic Bestiary, new APs, and even a splatbook that spliced already existing classes with psionic archetypes, there's plenty of product they could sell if they adopted the pre existing system and moved forward from there.

Actually I think it may be worse than master_marshmallow represents. If they accepted DSP psionics as "canon" and started building off of that, they become beholden to a 3PP's source material to define things that form a foundation for Paizo products.

If for some reason DPS were to alter the Psion to increase the total number of powers known such that Paizo no longer felt the class was balanced, and having already created splat books based on the Psion as is, it could invalidate their work and they would have no recourse. Right now Paizo has a clear line of control running from the CRB through all bonus source material (i.e. books providing new races/classes/archetypes/spells/etc) and out to any AP or additional content. DSP psionics books would disrupt that if Paizo were to base something on them.

Contributor

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Anguish wrote:

Not the least factor is that if Paizo uses DSP Psionics, that's a significant number of books NOT sold by Paizo compared to if they write their own Psychic Magic system. Imagine if all the Mythic content Paizo got to make was the Wrath of the Righteous AP and someone else made Mythic Adventures and the other tie-in products. Not as compelling a business decision.

Paizo has a history of doing products that synergize heavily. I honestly think that's the killer factor that precludes them ever adopting DSP Psionics. That there are no psionic advocates at Paizao doesn't help but the idea that it's a worse business plan is probably fatal.

Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.

Oooo, that could be...nasty:)


Quintessentially Me wrote:
Actually I think it may be worse than master_marshmallow represents. If they accepted DSP psionics as "canon" and started building off of that, they become beholden to a 3PP's source material to define things that form a foundation for Paizo products.

I imagine that if Paizo used DSP psionics, they'd "take over" the system (preferably with money), so they'd be in charge.


What strange fears.


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Richard Pett wrote:
Anguish wrote:
...Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.
Oooo, that could be...nasty:)

I've been recently re-watching all 4 seasons of Farscape, and I keep wondering why no one has done an adventure with a hostile neural clone ("Harvey"/Scorpius)?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anguish wrote:

Not the least factor is that if Paizo uses DSP Psionics, that's a significant number of books NOT sold by Paizo compared to if they write their own Psychic Magic system. Imagine if all the Mythic content Paizo got to make was the Wrath of the Righteous AP and someone else made Mythic Adventures and the other tie-in products. Not as compelling a business decision.

Paizo has a history of doing products that synergize heavily. I honestly think that's the killer factor that precludes them ever adopting DSP Psionics. That there are no psionic advocates at Paizao doesn't help but the idea that it's a worse business plan is probably fatal.

Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.

The most that Paizo will ever do with regard to DSP is say. "Great work use it if you want." There really is no reason for them to adopt it as part of their ruleset. DSP will produce it's own books, it's own bestiary for the folks that want it. For Paizo to adopt gets into the issue of licensing, bad blood if they simply just incorporate it and give nothing but the needed legal recognition, there is simply no good buisness reason for them to do so, and potentials for major problems.

There are advocates at Paizo. There doesn't seem to be the overwhelming desire to simply refresh 3.5 psi, for the very good reason that both DSP and Paradigm Press have sailed that ship away already. It's really hard to muster the enthuisasm to be the third company working on the exact same material. (Fourth if you count WOTC, Fifth, if you also count TSR)

Maybe what's really needed is some sign of flexibility on the part of the players for having psychic powers operate on a different model than WOTC's old material, a model which actually fits with the game system instead of being bolted on.


Anguish wrote:

Not the least factor is that if Paizo uses DSP Psionics, that's a significant number of books NOT sold by Paizo compared to if they write their own Psychic Magic system. Imagine if all the Mythic content Paizo got to make was the Wrath of the Righteous AP and someone else made Mythic Adventures and the other tie-in products. Not as compelling a business decision.

Paizo has a history of doing products that synergize heavily. I honestly think that's the killer factor that precludes them ever adopting DSP Psionics. That there are no psionic advocates at Paizao doesn't help but the idea that it's a worse business plan is probably fatal.

Which is too bad. I'd totally like to see what Nick Logue and Richard Pett would do with an adventure in a setting that includes mind thrust.

Eh, Paizo has a long history of copy/pasting older products into their "new" books. See, for example, the number of monsters in the bestiaries and APs that were copy/pasted from ToHC.

LazarX wrote:
The most that Paizo will ever do with regard to DSP is say. "Great work use it if you want."

Uh, you do realize that they have already used DSP psionics in modules, right?

...
Quote:
a model which actually fits with the game system instead of being bolted on.

This says to me that you don't understand the basics of the psionics rules. What about it doesn't "fit with the game system"?

The magic-psionic transparency handles most interactions between magic and psionics pretty easily...was there something about it that confused you?
(I know some groups house-rule that the magic-psionics transparency doesn't exist, and that such a house rule causes a lot of uncertainties about how different abilities interact. But that is a house rule, and it seems rather strange that you would criticize a subsystem based on something that isn't even an official rule.)

Either way, I agree with you on the most important point:

Quote:
Maybe what's really needed is some sign of flexibility on the part of the players for having psychic powers operate on a different model than WOTC's old material

I really hope Paizo will at least try to come up with a new subsystem.

One of the biggest advantages 3.X has over other systems is the ease with which new mechanics can be worked into the game almost seamlessly. Consider that WotC created psionics, martial maneuvers, pact magic, shadow magic, invocations, infusions, incarnum....
and all of those fit perfectly together in one game! Now try to imagine that level of flexibility in a system like 4e...it doesn't really work out particularly well.

If Paizo just copied an earlier subsystem like psionics, they wouldn't be adding anything new. They might tweak it, but GMs can already tweak it themselves. Tweaking is easy. Creating new subsystems is hard.

Unfortunately, I don't have particularly high expectations about what they end up doing with 'psychic magic', because Paizo's track record for developing expansive new subsystems isn't very good. They've come up with a few smaller mechanics that work for one class, and they wrote a half-baked-attempt at an alternate magic system in words of power, but for the most part they've just stuck to using the same old mechanics. I really hope they will come up with something new for 'psycic', but I am afraid they will essentially just rename/reskin the sorcerer/wizard. And I expect a lot of the powers will be identical to previously-existing Vancian spells. And this would be very dissapointing, even moreso than if they used the old psionics system.
For psionics, at least, only a few full-length books were ever released, and there is still a lot of design space open. Even though another psionics book wouldn't include all-new mechanics subsystems, it would at least help fill in substantial gaps. I've said before that tweaking is easy, while writing new subsystems is hard. Fleshing out existing subsystems is a task of moderate difficulty--it's not as hard as writing a new subsystem, but there is certainly still room for professional designers to do it.
For Vancian casting, though, there are already thousands of published spells already, and dozens of classes and scores of class-variants that use them. There are hundreds of feats available that are intended for wizards and sorcerers that apply equally well to any of the other 30+ classes using identical mechanics. Beyond that, there is tweaking. If Paizo does another book full of sorcerer/wizard spells, feats, and items that are retitled "psychic", they wouldn't be creating anything new, they would just be rehashing stuff that virtually every other publisher who's worked on 3.X has already done.

So yea...I really, really hope they come up with their own, original casting system for psychics. But given their track record with the oracle, witch, alchemist, summoner, and magus, I'm not going to hold my breathe.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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137ben wrote:
Eh, Paizo has a long history of copy/pasting older products into their "new" books. See, for example, the number of monsters in the bestiaries and APs that were copy/pasted from ToHC.

BTW, everything we publish, even monsters from the Tome of Horrors, get a development pass to bring them up to snuff with the Pathfinder RPG rules. It's not just a copy-paste.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

3 people marked this as a favorite.

*If* we were to do anything with Psionics, pretty much the first thing we'd do would be put James and Jason into a room and tell them they can't leave until they have a plan they're both happy with.

So if they're currently saying things that seem to agree, that's probably going to be Paizo's stance too. And if one of them says anything that the other one seems to contradict, then Paizo probably doesn't have an opinion at this time. :-)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And sell pay-per-view tickets?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes, that's very important. We need the ability to watch.


137ben wrote:
Uh, you do realize that they have already used DSP psionics in modules, right?

In which ones?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
And sell pay-per-view tickets?

Bah, if I paid to watch Jacobs and Bulhman have a viscous argument and they end up agreeing on everything in the first 5 minutes then I'll be disappointed!

And then they'll make some lame excuse about how the purpose of the development process isn't to have the designers destroy each other, it is about developing ideas into a well-polished product that makes the game better and--
ticket holding crowd wrote:
BLAH BLAH JUST FIGHT ALREADY!


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Are wrote:
137ben wrote:
Uh, you do realize that they have already used DSP psionics in modules, right?

In which ones?

Dragon's Demand.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Dragon's Demand.

...I should read my copy already.


Cheapy wrote:
Are wrote:
137ben wrote:
Uh, you do realize that they have already used DSP psionics in modules, right?

In which ones?

Dragon's Demand.

Kind of, IIRC.

They didn't actually make a Psion NPC. Just grabbed a couple abilities for a monster to use as the psionic equivalent of spell-likes, right?


137ben wrote:
Bah, if I paid to watch Jacobs and Bulhman have a viscous argument and they end up agreeing on everything in the first 5 minutes then I'll be disappointed!

A viscous argument? Sounds like a sticky situation...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Are wrote:
137ben wrote:
Uh, you do realize that they have already used DSP psionics in modules, right?

In which ones?

Dragon's Demand.

Kind of, IIRC.

They didn't actually make a Psion NPC. Just grabbed a couple abilities for a monster to use as the psionic equivalent of spell-likes, right?

Ben in discussion terminology, that is known as a "reach".


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He said they used DSP psionics. They have. Intentionally.

That's not a reach at all. It's just a plain fact.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

He said they used DSP psionics. They have. Intentionally.

That's not a reach at all. It's just a plain fact.

Making up a spell like ability or two is not anywhere the same as using the actual psionic system, which in and of itself borrows from the original D20 spell mechanics in places.

When Paizo puts a Psion or Psychic Warrior, using the actual DSP psionic system, in one of their publications then you can say they are using DSP mechanics.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It was psionic content published by DSP. Your semantic arguments do not change that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It was psionic content published by DSP. Your semantic arguments do not change that.

Quote the text.... that's allowed under fair use.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
It was psionic content published by DSP. Your semantic arguments do not change that.

Do you have any idea how redundant the term "semantic argument" is?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Enlighten me?


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No, once they use psionic things that DSP put out, and attribute it to DSP, then they are using DSP psionics. Which is what Paizo did.

Did Paizo use rules published by Dreamscarred Press? Yes.

Was the rule related to psionics? They were psionic abilities, so yes.

There's really no other way to put it. There's no wiggle room to say Paizo hasn't used DSP psionics. They didn't use the psionics you assumed, but they used it. And you know what they say about assuming.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

All arguments involve semantics... how can you have an argument without meaning?

se·man·tic [si-man-tik] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or arising from the different meanings of words or other symbols: semantic change; semantic confusion.

Then again... Fox News.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll keep it in mind.

I'm not certain which rules were used, other than id insinuation. There are a couple other things that might be from Psionics Unleashed but don't show up in the d20srd.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If they took those abilities and retooled them as spell like tricks, then that's not using DSP mechanics. If you see power points in those stat blocks, then I'll quit the thread.


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Is everyone happy with "use of open game content that originated in a DSP Psionics book" ?

Silver Crusade

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Matt Thomason wrote:
Is everyone happy with "use of open game content that originated in a DSP Psionics book" ?

That certainly lines up with the OGL citations in the back of Dragon's Demand, yes. :)

I like DSP's brain powers and would love to see them and power points in the Pathfinderverse.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

No. DSP doesn't exist. Dreamscarred Press exists. And they have psionics.

So it's more correct to say "Paizo made use of open game content that originated in a Dreamscarred Press psionics book that was published under the Pathfinder compatibility label."


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I think it's vitally important we clarify exactly what terminology we should use to describe what everyone agrees they did.


Cheapy wrote:

No. DSP doesn't exist. Dreamscarred Press exists. And they have psionics.

So it's more correct to say "Paizo made use of open game content that originated in a Dreamscarred Press psionics book that was published under the Pathfinder compatibility label."

My response to that is simply " :P " ;)


Steve Geddes wrote:
I think it's vitally important we clarify exactly what terminology we should use to describe what everyone agrees they did.

I'm unsure exactly what you mean by "vitally" there, and you should clarify.

Also, I object to your assumption that everyone agrees on the fact they did something.


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Matt Thomason wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I think it's vitally important we clarify exactly what terminology we should use to describe what everyone agrees they did.

I'm unsure exactly what you mean by "vitally" there, and you should clarify.

Also, I object to your assumption that everyone agrees on the fact they did something.

I didnt assume, I took it as self-evident.

Any more of this nonsense and I shall quote wikipedia.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Matt Thomason wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
I think it's vitally important we clarify exactly what terminology we should use to describe what everyone agrees they did.

I'm unsure exactly what you mean by "vitally" there, and you should clarify.

Also, I object to your assumption that everyone agrees on the fact they did something.

I didnt assume, I took it as axiomatic.

Any more of this nonsense and I shall quote wikipedia.

Yikes! I submit and accept your version. Just don't go quoting the Ultimate Source of All Truth at me!

Flees for the safety of somewhere with refreshing inaccuracies... like government policy documents.

Silver Crusade

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Steve Geddes wrote:
I think it's vitally important we clarify exactly what terminology we should use to describe what everyone agrees they did.

Define "is". ;)


I'm going to prescribe some reading first. A short essay assignment will follow.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
I'm going to prescribe some reading first. A short essay assignment will follow.

After reading that, I'm going to prescribe myself some Tyelenol.

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