[Green Ronin] Feedback on Advanced Bestiary Kickstarter

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Heya folks! I'm here to ask you something while wearing my "Pathfinder Developer" hat from Green Ronin!

So, our Advanced Bestiary has funded and we're working on the stretch goals. There's lots of great stuff (new content, new cover, new interior art) we can do if we get the support. That'll make the project better for everyone, so we could really use your help getting the word out!

But there's already an issue I want your opinions on, as Pathfinder fans. Five of the Advanced Bestiary's original templates (Broken Soul, Devil-Bound, Divine Guardian, Fungal Creature, Nightmare Creature) have been updated by Paizo and included in Bestiary 4.

So, we have three choices on how to handle that as we update Adv. Bestiary:

1. Include the templates sticking to the same updated stats as Paizo. Since we are offering people an updated version of the Advanced Bestiary, and not everyone is going to have Bestiary 4, this allows us to make sure everyone who wants all the templates we originally created in an updated format gets them, and that there aren't two versions of the same template. But it also means that for people that do have both books, there's about 5 pages of overlap in content.

2. Include the templates, but do our own conversion. Upside: Adv Bestiary is complete and there's new content. Downside, there are two versions of the same templates.

3. Ignore the templates that have already been updated in Bestiary 4, and create brand-new templates. Upside: everyone who has both books gets all new material. Downside: people who want all the Advanced Bestiary material updated have to look in 2 places for it, and those who don't have Bestiary 4 miss out on 5 templates.

I have always believed on of the reasons I have has success as a Pathfinder writer and developer is that I listen to the fans so:

How would you folks like us to handle this?

[silverhair2008]

Personally I sort of lean toward #2. I do plan on getting Bestiary 4 at some point but I don't know when that would be. So having the Templates in the Adv Bestiary would be to my advantage.

[Trace Coburn]

Selfish as it may sound, as someone who has Bestiary 4, I’d be happy to take Option #3 and see those duplicated templates omitted in favour of fresh material. Perhaps the ‘drider’ template that was released as a web-enhancement to the original Advanced Bestiary could be one of the replacements?*

* If so, I’d like to offer a suggestion (PM on the way).

[Changing Man]

personally, I'm more curious as to what this Hat really looks like- is it baseball-cap style? a Stetson? Top hat?

Hmm... No option 4? Redo the templates with slightly altered names, so people can pick and choose as they will, or even run them side by side? (ex.: Broken Soul vs. Shattered Soul, Devil-Bound vs. Devil-Bonded, etc etc).

[Tinkergoth]

Personally I prefer option #3.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I'd prefer option 3 myself, but if not that then option 1 is reasonable.

My reasons are because of the prevalence of the pathfinder srd and d20pfsrd.com being so heavily used at my table. Having multiple templates that are similar thematically can be less useful and could cause confusion.

With option 3 there's new content on top of the previously updated templates. With option 1 there's reduced confusion either way I'm a happy camper.

[Changing Man]

Ah, I can see y'all's point. I keep forgetting how sometimes folks get easily confused by similar-sounding names. ("we're the People's Front of Judea! Not the Judean People's Front! Those guys are jerks!").

That being said, I am of the opinion that anything which Green Ronin publishes should trump whatever Paizo has put out, simply because the original came from GR, and the Paizo B4 version is just their attempt at conversion. The 'official' version (in my opinion) would always be that which comes from the original creator(s). So I guess that's option 2. Or maybe 1.5, depending on just how different things turn out to be.

[Aarontendo]

Option 3. I have the bestiary 4 so gotta vote what benefits me! :)

[Endzeitgeist]

Honestly...I'd rather have #3.

Similarly sounding templates/templates that do ALMOST the same things always end up creating confusion. Also: If in doubt, most groups would probably use the Paizo-templates, so not sure about the utility of double templates.

Reprints are imho just a waste of pages.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

[Lordzum]

#3 for me. I want new shiny things.

[davrion]

#3 as well

[Legendarius]

I'm a supporter of the Kickstarter and don't have the original Advanced Bestiary and I do have Pathfinder Bestiary 4 so I'll jump on the option #3 bandwagon myself. I'd rather have new content. Also, I believe as a Kickstarter supporter I'll be getting a copy of the original book PDF so I'll have the old 3E version of the template too.

[Robert Little]

#3. The templates that were reprinted in Bestiary 4 are part of the Pathfinder Reference Document now, so folks have ready access to it there.

Edit: Heck, add a limited tier to the Kickstarter with the opportunity for five folks to work with Green Ronin to create a new template to fill the vacant slots. You'd probably get folks willing to pay a premium for that.

[Heine Stick]

I'm going to go with option #3 as well for reasons that have already been given upthread.

[Mad Doodad]

I'll own a copy of the Pathfinder Bestiary 4 soon enough and I don't own the original Advanced Bestiary, so I'd like to see option #3.

[Arazyr]

I'm also going to vote for #3, though I'd be fine with any. (Even option 2. There is precedent; the Tome of Horrors Complete did separate conversions of monsters from the original ToHs that Paizo already put in the Bestiaries.)

[Urath DM]

I would be ok with any of them. I think I lean toward #1 for all the people who don't have the templates in other forms, and who don't use the internet religiously enough to get them there.

I'm also a bit more curious on the handling of some others.. like any that have been "partially updated" by Paizo by being used in AP volumes. For those, I think I'd definitely like to see Option #1 followed (full conversions that "match" any partials used in the APs).

[HolmesandWatson]

I backed the KS and I vote for #3. The original third edition templates are pretty close to the PF versions to start with. Then you've got those templates Pathfinderized in Bestiary 4. Repeating them in the new Adv Bestiary seems repetitive.

Something new and fresh only makes the Pathfinder Advanced Bestiary a better product.

[MMCJawa]

I am with 3, although I am procrastinating on the kickstarter

[Christopher Hauschild]

Option 3 please.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Urath DM wrote:

I'm also a bit more curious on the handling of some others.. like any that have been "partially updated" by Paizo by being used in AP volumes.

Since those templates have not been presented as stand-alone options (just appearing on sample creatures, rather than as templates that can easily be applied to new creatures) we are absolutely including them in the Adv. Bestiary.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

MMCJawa wrote:

I am with 3, although I am procrastinating on the kickstarter

Anything in particular that might encourage you to jump in? :)

[Justin Sluder]

As long as there is a box at the beginning pointing folks at the templates in Bestiary 4, I'm good with Option #3.

Also, be sure you talk with Steve at Rite, because "a few" of the Advanced Bestiary templates have been included in "a few" of the Rite products over the years. ;)

[Papa-DRB]

I have Advanced Bestiary, backed the Kickstart, and do NOT have Bestiary 4.

That said, I would rather have new templates, since I can get the Bestiary 4 stuff from the online PRD

-- david

edit: Although, mentioning the original templates would be helpful.

[Pramas]

We will certainly point out which templates originally appeared in the AB and where they can be found if not in the new book.

[Papa-DRB]

Pramas wrote:

We will certainly point out which templates originally appeared in the AB and where they can be found if not in the new book.

Great! Works for me....

-- david

[Joey Virtue]

I say number 3 More templates the better

[Christina Stiles]

Option 3.

[Paul Watson]

Option 3.
If not 3 then 1.
Please not 2.

I assume option 4: Copy the Paizo updates AND five new templates is impractial for reasons of page count and layout?

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

We have a stretch goal to add 16 pages of new content! But short of that yes, it's not practical to add just 5 extra templates and the budget won't handle adding a whole new set unless we hit our stretch goal and economy of scale pitches in.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

For anyone interested in the Advanced Bestiary, it's worth noting that Chris Pramas and I talked about it on Know Direction last night!

[MMCJawa]

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

MMCJawa wrote:

I am with 3, although I am procrastinating on the kickstarter

Anything in particular that might encourage you to jump in? :)

A postdoctoral position and/or relevant job to slide into after I defend my Phd this spring :)

[Weslocke]

I am a backer and I would like to toss my vote in for #3 as well.

[Kryzbyn]

Option 1 or 3. Don't waste books space on two versions of the same template, unless you can cover the differences with brilliant fluff ;)

EDIT: meant 1 or 3

[Alzrius]

I say option #3.

My reasoning here is that anyone who knows about this book (that is, fans of third-party supplements) will - I presume - also know about the PRD and the d20PFSRD.

Given that the contents of Bestiary 4 will be uploaded to those fairly soon, it's safe to say that the Advanced Bestiary owners will soon have access to the Bestiary 4 versions of these templates anyway, and so will end up in the position of "I have two identical/very similar monsters" that are the downsides of options 1 and 2.

So yeah, option three makes the most sense to me.

[Aarontendo]

Well, unless option 4 is to have risque photos of the Green Ronin crew posing in as little as possible. Any takers? ;p

[DM Jeff]

Option #3 sounds super.

[ShadowcatX]

Option 3 sounds good to me.

[Kvantum]

Another "Backer, #3" vote here.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

So far, Option 3 seems to be a clear winner (both here and on the Kickstarter Page). That doesn't surprise me, but there have been a few other opinions, so I am really glad we asked and got a general feel for this!