Double Stack / Double Dipping / Using the same attribute twice...


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It is simply the type of the +X that is figured from the (Stat Value-10)/2=X formula.

So the Paladin gives an Untyped Bonus so it doesn't stack. However Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers both give DEX to CMB for certain cases therefore they wouldn't stack.

Basically it goes akin to Hack-N-Slash's Bonus(STR), Bonus(AGI), Bonus(VIT), Bonus(MEN), Bonus(SEN), and Bonus(PRE).

NOTE: Hack-N-Slash's Attributes are STRENGTH, AGILITY, VITALITY, MENTALITY, SENSE, and PRESENCE. It is based on something akin to AD&D and Pathfinder mixed together.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:


product.

In this specific case, the feats create a finished product. They modify the rules regarding a specific attribute, creating a new finished product.

The feat does not create a finished product. The feat is not anything on its own. It merely takes the dex mod from point A and applies it to point B where it wouldn't normally be.

Try to see the feat as a finished product: it doesn't work. The product only has one job: to add a certain number to the d20 roll... and you can't do that with just the feat.

The feat a backroad, not a source.

Its twisting the rules in the extreme to say that dex + dex is not the same source.

That is like saying a chairmaker isn't the source of a chair because he has to use wood to make it.

Well, guess what? Your dexterity isn't the source either because you had to use a pointbuy to get your dex. In fact, you got all of your ability scores from this one source.

So no ability scores modifiers can ever stack with any other ability score modifier on ANYTHING. They all have the same source. Your point buy number.

PROVE otherwise.


The Feat is the source.

Just like a spell that adds +4 armor AC is the source for the bonus. The source is NOT 'spells' ability from the class. Although you CAN argue that the guy couldn't cast the spell without the ability to cast spells...

Here, try this on for size.

Sorcerer. Aasimar. 12 Cha. Level 4.

Casts Eagle's Splendor on himself to increase his Cha with a +4 enhancement bonus.

What just happened here?

Well, he cast a 2nd level spell to get a bonus. What is the source of this bonus?

Is it the spell Eagle's Splendor? Well, no bonus without the spell. Yes?
Or is it his caster level? Well, no spell if his caster level was lower. Yes?
Maybe it is his class ability to cast spells? Clearly he can't cast a spell without this. Yes?
Maybe the source is his class itself? No arcane spellcasting without an arcane spellcasting class after all. Yes?
Well, he also needs a Charisma score of 10+spell level to cast that 2nd level spell. Maybe his source for the enhancement bonus to his charisma is his charisma. Yes?
Well, he got a bonus to his charisma for being an aasimar, maybe that is the source of this +4 bonus? Well, he couldn't have had that 12 which let him cast 2nd level spells without having that racial modifier. Yes?
Well, he had to use point buy to determine his charisma in the first place, maybe the point buy is the source for this bonus? Well, without using the point buy to choose his attributes he wouldn't have any. Clearly can't cast this spell if you don't even have stats. Yes?

NO! The source is the spell! >.<
Just like the source of any/all other numerical changes and effects is the thing that causes them!
Feats are sources.
Traits are sources.
Class abilities are sources.
Items are sources.
Spells are sources.
Etc, Gah.

The feat Fury's Fall is the SOURCE for the bonus to trip attempts.
Not the character level that gave you the feat. Not the class level that gave you a bonus feat. Not the attribute that it takes the number from. Not the character concept. Not the paper your character is printed on. Not the rulebook you read to write him up referencing from. The source... is... the... feat.

If you do not, or cannot understand this... there is no other way that I know of to help you get it.


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Regarding Weapon Finesse, it's important to note that I doesn't grant a bonus to attack rolls equal to your Dex bonus, it allows you to USE your Dex bonus. If another ability allows you to use the bonus, you don't apply twice, because you aren't being granted a bonus; just permission to use a different one.

By contrast, Divine Grace grants a bonus equal to your CHA bonus. An undead paladin (work with me here) would add his CHA to his Fort save twice; once as the base standard, and once because he receives a second explicit bonus equal to his CHA.

In symbol terms, WF says :
Instead of d20+X, you may roll d20+Y
While DG says:
You may add B to d20+C

Long story short, you can't use an attribute twice if the attribute is all you're using. I you are granted an extra bonus equal to your attribute bonus, you can use it (but I reserve judgment on specifics if more are presented.)


Bizbag wrote:

Regarding Weapon Finesse, it's important to note that I doesn't grant a bonus to attack rolls equal to your Dex bonus, it allows you to USE your Dex bonus. If another ability allows you to use the bonus, you don't apply twice, because you aren't being granted a bonus; just permission to use a different one.

By contrast, Divine Grace grants a bonus equal to your CHA bonus. An undead paladin (work with me here) would add his CHA to his Fort save twice; once as the base standard, and once because he receives a second explicit bonus equal to his CHA.

In symbol terms, WF says :
Instead of d20+X, you may roll d20+Y
While DG says:
You may add B to d20+C

Long story short, you can't use an attribute twice if the attribute is all you're using. I you are granted an extra bonus equal to your attribute bonus, you can use it (but I reserve judgment on specifics if more are presented.)

Better examples re: Divine Grace and chairmaker, thank you Bizbag amd Remy.


That's actually quite persuasive. It also neatly supports stacking Fury's Fall with Weapon Finesse. It's win-win! : D


Re: Fury's Fall, I could see it going either way. FF simply allows you to add your Dex bonus to the roll; which is also what Weapon Finesse does. FF doesn't seem to grant its own bonus, it just lets you use your existing one. On the other hand, the intent of the feat is to allow you to add two ability bonuses to the roll (albeit different ones), so having a way to have those both be the same may be legit.


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Bizbag wrote:
allows you to add your Dex bonus to the roll; which is also what Weapon Finesse does.

Uhm. No.

It has been explained many times in this thread already.

Weapon Finesse doesn't do the same thing as Fury's Fall. Similar. Not the same.

Weapon Finesse allows you to substitute your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier on the roll.

Fury's Fall allows you to add your dexterity bonus on the roll.

Think of it like this.

By default, you get a regular cake.
Weapon Finesse: Exchange regular cake for chocolate cake.
Fury's Fall: Add chocolate frosting to your cake.

If you're trying to say that having Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall means you don't get chocolate cake with chocolate frosting... you're wrong.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Then James Jacobs is also wrong. (But I will admit that that does happen on occasion.)

His line or reasoning, which apparently is based on a WotC ruling for D&D 3.5, appears to be that you can add as many ability score modifiers as you like to any single roll or statistic (as many such cases have been identified) but you cannot add the same ability score modifier more than once. So far there seems to be no clearly cited example where it is definitely legal to add an ability score modifier more than once to the same die roll or game statistic -- and also no statements beyond an official ruling for D&D 3.5 and a non-binding statement from James Jacobs saying that it is not legal to do this.

Even the chocolate cake example does not help. When you get to the phase of adding chocolate frosting to the chocolate cake, do you add more frosting (so that the chocolate frosting is extra thick) or do you look at it, say to yourself that it is already covered with chocolate frosting, and add no more?

We need a FAQ entry that either directly addresses this rules area, or a more general one that addresses the applicability of D&D 3.5 rulings not specifically contradicted in any Paizo source.


I have a question for the "you can apply both because the source is different" people: thus would also mean that a Magus with the Dervish Dance feat, and an Agile scimitar could add their Dex to damage twice, right? One is from a feat, the other from a weapon enchant.


David knott 242 wrote:
So far there seems to be no clearly cited example where it is definitely legal to add an ability score modifier more than once to the same die roll or game statistic

How many times do you add your Constitution modifier to your HP at level 10? Is it 10 times? I think it is 10 times. No? Just the once you say?

David knott 242 wrote:
Even the chocolate cake example does not help. When you get to the phase of adding chocolate frosting to the chocolate cake, do you add more frosting (so that the chocolate frosting is extra thick) or do you look at it, say to yourself that it is already covered with chocolate frosting, and add no more?

Wut.

Apparently the frosting is extra thick. Then.

Man, if my sweet cake analogy isn't doing it for ya... I don't really know how to break this down any simpler.

Define terms fully? I guess...

Cake = trip attempt
Regular = strength based
Chocolate = dexterity based
Frosting = bonus to trip attempt
Set nondefined parameters to one standard unit.

Default: Regular Cake. (Strength based trip attempt)
Weapon Finesse: Switch Cake from Regular to Chocolate. (Dexterity based trip attempt)
Fury's Fall: Add Chocolate Frosting. (add dexterity based bonus to trip attempt)

Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall: Switch Cake from Regular to Chocolate. Add Chocolate Frosting. (Dexterity based trip attempt with dexterity based bonus to trip attempt.)

David knott 242 wrote:
We need a FAQ entry that either directly addresses this rules area, or a more general one that addresses the applicability of D&D 3.5 rulings not specifically contradicted in any Paizo source.

Yeah I guess. A lot of people don't get it. Clarification will help with that.


Scythia wrote:
I have a question for the "you can apply both because the source is different" people: thus would also mean that a Magus with the Dervish Dance feat, and an Agile scimitar could add their Dex to damage twice, right? One is from a feat, the other from a weapon enchant.

In that example, both of those 'do the same thing'.

Agile: Switch regular pie for chocolate pie.
Dervish Dance: Switch regular pie for chocolate pie.

See how they can't both work together? They don't 'add' dexterty bonus to damage... they both 'switch out' the strength bonus and 'replace it' with the dexterity bonus. Not compatible.


I have not ready any post since my last one because I think too many people are looking at the potential power of the combo and not the rules themselves and that is how they are making their decision so I will make different points.

The source of a bonus is what gives you the bonus. A bonus is not its own source. As an example 2 defending weapons dont stack because the source is the defending property. If you had defending property , and another property or magic item the bonus to AC would stack simply because the source(giver) would be different.

As for FF and AM it should be noted that feats are only compared to the core rules when written. They were most likely not intended to be used together, but that is different from saying they are not rules legal.

There is RAW(letter of the law) and RAI(spirit of the law/rules).

RAW the dex bonus is not a bonus type. This was shown in another post. UM has the current bonus types listed except for mythic because it came out after UM..

The flavor for FF has the dex being added to strength not dex again but the mechanics add it to CMB, so I would not be surprised if it did not work, but it wont because of a rule about bonuses. It would be because the RAW does not match RAI.

That does not make it against the rules right now because some combination have no rules since the devs have not even thought of the combo.

As a GM I would advise you to make a decision for strange combos on your own. Even when I find a rule to be legal, I just ignore it if I dont like it.

Now I am going back to the power of the ability:
It is a powerful combo. Is it OP? Well I think that if your GM mainly uses humanoids(medium sized) it may be too good, but if he uses monsters which tend to have really good CMD's it may not be so bad. Not only that but you can only trip up to 2 sizes larger than you anyway.

TLDR: RAW the ability is legal. As to what ruling will come down, I have no idea if any is made at all. For PFS you might want to show all of the argument to Mike Brock and let him decide to avoid table variation.


Wraithstrike wrote:
The source of a bonus is what gives you the bonus. A bonus is not its own source. As an example 2 defending weapons dont stack because the source is the defending property

The defending property isn't what gives you the bonus, the defending weapon does.

Quote:
RAW the dex bonus is not a bonus type

And this is an argument AGAINST stacking.

Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wraithstrike wrote:
The source of a bonus is what gives you the bonus. A bonus is not its own source. As an example 2 defending weapons dont stack because the source is the defending property
The defending property isn't what gives you the bonus, the defending weapon does.

The defending property is the source. A longsword doesn't give you the bonus. A defending longsword can. Why? Because it has the weapon enchant, which is the source.

I think you are confused about what sources are.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
RAW the dex bonus is not a bonus type

And this is an argument AGAINST stacking.

Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

That is an argument for stacking. Untyped bonuses stack. That is an untyped bonus, therefore, they stack. Untyped bonus A + untyped bonus B get added together. Ie stack.


Quote:
If you're trying to say that having Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall means you don't get chocolate cake with chocolate frosting... you're wrong.

If you read the whole of the sentence you quoted, it says I could understand an official ruling going either way; plus my previous post explained how I understand that certain abilities can indeed allow double-dipping (Divjne Grace, ex). My current position is that Fury's Fall probably stacks with WF, but it's a tentative decision and I'd not argue an official ruling otherwise.

Quote:
How many times do you add your Constitution modifier to your HP at level 10? Is it 10 times? I think it is 10 times. No? Just the once you say?

It seems to me that a level 10 character makes 10 die rolls and adds his Con once per roll. If you hit a target with a longsword three times, you add strength three times as well.


Remy Balster wrote:
That is an argument for stacking. Untyped bonuses stack. That is an untyped bonus, therefore, they stack

Read the rest of the sentence.


Bizbag wrote:
Quote:
How many times do you add your Constitution modifier to your HP at level 10? Is it 10 times? I think it is 10 times. No? Just the once you say?
It seems to me that a level 10 character makes 10 die rolls and adds his Con once per roll. If you hit a target with a longsword three times, you add strength three times as well.
David knott 242 wrote:
So far there seems to be no clearly cited example where it is definitely legal to add an ability score modifier more than once to the same die roll or game statistic

Do you see it?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:
That is an argument for stacking. Untyped bonuses stack. That is an untyped bonus, therefore, they stack
Read the rest of the sentence.

You lost me. You quoted a line that supported it stacking. Then declared it was an argument against stacking. Then continued by further supporting that it would stack...

/shrug

"Read the rest of the sentence" doesn't help me make sense out of that.


Scythia wrote:
I have a question for the "you can apply both because the source is different" people: thus would also mean that a Magus with the Dervish Dance feat, and an Agile scimitar could add their Dex to damage twice, right? One is from a feat, the other from a weapon enchant.

Neither of those add to damage. Dervish Dance allows you to use dexterity instead of strength to damage(among other things). Agile allows you to use dexterity instead of strength(and has other awkward rulings). If Agile said instead that it allowed you to add dexterity to damage ontop of your original modifier, such as with fury's fall or Lore of Escape, then it would be different. Lore of Escape actually has a different wording than the other two examples too...


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:


Where does it say that you cannot use the same attribute twice for a calculation? For instance, having Fury's Fall and agile manuevers, which adds dexterity to your CMB and replaces Strength for Dexterity for your CMB calculation.

I made a thread about this before, it was left unanswered because everyone was hooked on the example. So, back to what I was saying:

Is double stacking/double dipping/ using the same attribute twice for the same thing against the rules? If so, where is the rule?

These two feats give the exact same benefit. They are redundant feats. The main issue is that the bonuses come from the same source.

Core Rule Book page 208:
"Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source."

Lantern Lodge

So, I guess we should all hit the FAQ button?

I'm personally of the opinion attribute bonuses are untyped, and that these feats are different sources of bonuses, therefore they stack.

However, I do feel the FAQ bat coming around and saying "attribute bonuses are now, officially typed". I really hope they don't though rule that way though.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
However, I do feel the FAQ bat coming around and saying "attribute bonuses are now, officially typed". I really hope they don't though rule that way though.

Ditto. Makes things more complicated imo.

Lantern Lodge

It might take them awhile to rule as well. There's a lot of corner cases this applies to, like kirin strike with focused shot (bad, I know, but the scout sniper rogue might actually make use of it), or kirin strike with Kensai's extra damage equal to int to flat footed opponents idea.

There's TONS of corner cases, and making a ruling on this is going to be difficult because of that.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
There's TONS of corner cases, and making a ruling on this is going to be difficult because of that.

Sometimes, the best ruling is no ruling.

Sczarni

Personally I think all these analogies are stupid. The RAW isn't clear. We need to know the intent here because everything else aside, the main reason why this could work is that one feat substitutes a bonus WITHIN the equation, while the other adds the bonus TO the equation.

Regardless if the bonus is typed or from the same source, if the INTENT was to, in fact, double dip a bonus, this becomes a case of specific trumping general.

If the INTENT is not to double dip all the reasons given as to why this shouldn't work are valid.

FWIW: I couldn't care less which way this comes down, but if it is permissible it provides us with more options for creative and effective character building.

Lantern Lodge

Krodjin, the reason why type and source matter so much is because those are general rules at play. The equation isn't so much the heart of the issue. Mathematically speaking, (CMB + Dex) + Dex = CMB + Dex + Dex = Cmb +2Dex.

This applies to many other situations that don't have an inside or outside part to their equations. For instance, Kirin Strike + Focused Shot

Kirin Strike wrote:
...as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2)
Focused Shot wrote:
As a standard action, you may make an attack with a bow or crossbow and add your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll.

Essentially, your adding 3x intelligence to one attack. If attribute bonuses are typed, this doesn't work. If intelligence is considered the source of the bonus, and not the feat, then this doesn't work.

Wanting a specific answer to this case only gives us an answer for that one situation. I personally would like an answer to every relevant question by giving us a general answer. (Something like attribute bonuses are typed to their attribute, or the attribute is, in fact, the source of the bonus, or that this combination, and any others like it, work.)


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Just to weigh in here.

If you cannot add the same ability score twice, then Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity are 100% non-functional. And these are Core feats, not feats from Golarion books. Then add in Tiger Claws.

Dragon Ferocity:
Add half your strength bonus to unarmed damage rolls

Tiger Claw:
Make on attack roll to hit with two unarmed strikes. Add half of your strength bonus to one of these rolls.

Strength being the basis for all of these rolls to begin with, Dragon Ferocity is giving you 1.5x strength on unarmed damage rolls. Stacking strength bonuses.

Same for Tiger Claws.
Using the two styles together and you can get Str + 1/2 Str + 1/2 Str

If this is your first attack in the round, Dragon Style lets you add 1-1/2 times you str bonus on the first attack in a given round.

So, all together, you make one attack with Tiger Claws that hits with two unarmed strikes. Dragon Style is activated upping the base damage of both strikes to 1-1/2 times strength. Dragon Ferocity adds 1/2 strength bonus to both damage rolls. If you power attack, Tiger Claws adds 1/2 times strength bonus to one of these strikes.

All together you get
1 attack roll at your highest BAB

Damage = Fist + 2.5*Str, and Fist + 2*Str

Lvl 12 Monk, Str 22, +2 AomF
Tiger Claws Power Attack: +17 (2d6+23, 2d6+20)

Lots of stacking from the same source,
And if Strength can't stack with strength, then this is all invalidated, and Dragon Ferocity and Tiger Claws in particular, do not function at all.

Lantern Lodge

By the way, an official FAQ request for clarification on what a source is can be found here

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