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| 30 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
Honest question:
Where does it say that you cannot use the same attribute twice for a calculation? For instance, having Fury's Fall and agile manuevers, which adds dexterity to your CMB and replaces Strength for Dexterity for your CMB calculation.
I made a thread about this before, it was left unanswered because everyone was hooked on the example. So, back to what I was saying:
Is double stacking/double dipping/ using the same attribute twice for the same thing against the rules? If so, where is the rule?
Here's a post by JJ on the subject.
Not a rulebook, but some things note it under themselves.
There is on rule against it. My posts proved that. I dont want to repeat them, but they are in the other thread about attribute bonuses and CMB.
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Wraith, I meant no offense, it's just that I've never seen the rules for this before, and people have mentioned it without quoting it so I was curious as to whether or not it was actually a rule.
Thank you MrSin. JJ mentioned it, and the D20 website talks about it. Is there a place in the book where it mentions that? Or is the D20 website considered to be in line with the design team?
I'm fine with either answer, just want to know :)
There doesn't need to be a stated rule against it. James Jacob's post explaining why it can't work should be enough.
But if you missed the concept behind why you can't add your ability modifier twice to the same calculation, just imagine it as a question of physics.
Being good at something reliant on an attribute does not magically multiply that attribute. But when you add your mod twice, that is essentially what you are doing. Using Dexterity in an abstract way, imagine a gymnast with a Dex of 18. She learns a new move on the balance beam and perfects it. Does her Dexterity suddenly shoot up from 18 to 26 everytime she uses that move? That would be ridiculous. But that is what you are saying is happening when you add your mod twice.
Now, some feat or ability may grant a bonus of some sort when you use it. That's the point of those things. But you can never add your same ability score modifier to something already using it. Because no feat or ability makes you suddenly twice as strong or dexterous, or whatever.
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There doesn't need to be a stated rule against it. James Jacob's post explaining why it can't work should be enough.
Dude, I've got this rule that's a rule that you should follow, but I like... Didn't write it down. You totally should follow and know it though! Also, there are some rules you don't have to know but you should follow anyway and I won't tell you.
It doesn't work very well if its not written down, and not all of us put faith in those post or are able to see it. Its not always the most reliable source.
Seriously, they do not stack?
A paladin 2/oracle 1 with the prophetic armor revelation woudl not add twice his dex bonus to reflex? that sound depressing.
Nothing says they don't. Additionally, paladins add charisma on top of whatever other modifiers they have. Losing out on saving throws because you took something that's supposed to give a bonus would be... weird, to say the least.
They are an Untyped Bonus from the Same Source. R.A.W. I would say they wouldn't stack.
Though I personally would rule that it would depend on what is modifying what.
So the DEX example would be a no but for the Paladin/Oracle I might let it.
What I was getting at what one views the source as.
If the Source is the Feat/Class Ability then yes. If one views the Source as the Stat then it is a No.
IIRC R.A.W. has been that the source is where the number comes from. Though typically an exception is made for when in says (minimum +X). In which case the source is the effect.
Wizards of the Coast said something about ability score bonuses for the same ability score not stacking (specifically in the case of a multiclassed monk/ninja, since their version of the ninja also added wisdom to unarmored AC) -- and I am pretty sure that article can still be found.
To date I have not seen any similar statement from Paizo -- so all we have at this point is an inference from the way Wizards handled it. Paizo could ignore such cases as long as they did not generate any on their own, but now that that no longer seems to be the case, it it time for them to make their own statement on the subject.
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And for those looking in the PRD, try here
Although it could be said that rule only applies to spells, since that is the section of the rules it is in. Neither the Glossary or the Common Terms of the Getting Started chapter mention this restriction. Not to mention that, as others have said, determining the source of a bonus can be tricky.
@LoneKnave: What? So you are in the camp that they get to add DEX twice?
Wraith, I meant no offense, it's just that I've never seen the rules for this before, and people have mentioned it without quoting it so I was curious as to whether or not it was actually a rule.
Thank you MrSin. JJ mentioned it, and the D20 website talks about it. Is there a place in the book where it mentions that? Or is the D20 website considered to be in line with the design team?
I'm fine with either answer, just want to know :)
I was not offended
There doesn't need to be a stated rule against it. James Jacob's post explaining why it can't work should be enough.
But if you missed the concept behind why you can't add your ability modifier twice to the same calculation, just imagine it as a question of physics.
Being good at something reliant on an attribute does not magically multiply that attribute. But when you add your mod twice, that is essentially what you are doing. Using Dexterity in an abstract way, imagine a gymnast with a Dex of 18. She learns a new move on the balance beam and perfects it. Does her Dexterity suddenly shoot up from 18 to 26 everytime she uses that move? That would be ridiculous. But that is what you are saying is happening when you add your mod twice.
Now, some feat or ability may grant a bonus of some sort when you use it. That's the point of those things. But you can never add your same ability score modifier to something already using it. Because no feat or ability makes you suddenly twice as strong or dexterous, or whatever.
JJ's post does not match rules. Mine does.
Well your example wouldn't fit with what we are saying at all either... It is just an extreme fallacy...
The Rogue wouldn't get the bonus because the source of the bonus is Offensive Defense. On the other hand DEX is the Source of the Bonus with the Feat providing access to the bonus.
Seriously, they do not stack?
A paladin 2/oracle 1 with the prophetic armor revelation woudl not add twice his dex bonus to reflex? that sound depressing.
I don't know if you are serious, so I will look at this later.
There is on rule against it.I appreciate Wraithstrike view.
But every game you sit at my table you will never be able to stack the same ability twice:
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
The ability is not stacking..:)
Each feat does a seperate thing. :)
But I appreciate your houserule.
Well your example wouldn't fit with what we are saying at all either... It is just an extreme fallacy...
The Rogue wouldn't get the bonus because the source of the bonus is Offensive Defense. On the other hand DEX is the Source of the Bonus with the Feat providing access to the bonus.
I feel like that's being a little picky about what does what and when.
I don't know if you are serious, so I will look at this later.Seriously, they do not stack?
A paladin 2/oracle 1 with the prophetic armor revelation woudl not add twice his dex bonus to reflex? that sound depressing.
Totally serious, I just make this character yesterday.
Actually the Pal2/Ora1 would use CHA Twice only in a sense as the Paladin doesn't add CHA to Saves but a Bonus Equal to their CHA.
EDIT:
I feel like that's being a little picky about what does what and when.Well your example wouldn't fit with what we are saying at all either... It is just an extreme fallacy...
The Rogue wouldn't get the bonus because the source of the bonus is Offensive Defense. On the other hand DEX is the Source of the Bonus with the Feat providing access to the bonus.
What I am meaning is the Bonus is listed as a set number under Offensive Defense where as the Feats state that they use DEX.
Okay I just looked at the feats closer. I actually agree with TGMaxMaxer. One changes the basic formula the other adds to the formula.
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The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Your dex bonus and your dex bonus are the same source.
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@BigNorseWolf: Depends on how one views sources.
DEX is an Untyped Bonus. The Source could be the Feat or the Stat based on view.
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It's been mentioned before by Paizo staff that getting threads to be popular on FAQ clicks doesn't make them more likely to be answered.
There's great evidence of this by now-many threads on whether Fury's Fall and Agile Maneuvers stack.
James Jacob's name keeps coming up, and it's only when posters keep saying "James said it so that's Paizo intent/gospel" that makes him less likely to want to give out his perspective. That's all it is - if you want to play that way, fine, but that's not RAW or the design team's RAI. Good on him for giving his perspective, we appreciate that, by the way. In an instance like this where there's still heavy debate on both sides, his perspective can't be made law unless the design team steps in.
Having said all that, I'm not sure what else we need to do to get a ruling, considering how many threads there have been going back to early 2012 for this.
Its a reasonable argument to make either way. Looking at the fluff, it says you "use strength and agility". I do not think the intention was to let people double dip their dex.
That being said... there is really no rule that says that you can't. If you look at the stacking rules in a very specific way, then maybe. But in truth, the bonus comes from the feat even if it is calculated from your dex.
If this weren't true, then Dragon's Ferocity would not function. And I think we can all agree that it is supposed to function the way it is written.
This is why I would implore any and all GMs to be far more cautious about allowing material from tertiary splat books. The material is very often unbalanced and unrefined. If it is really good stuff, it may eventually make it into a core book.
To be fair,it seems that people do not really hitted that much the FAQ button in those threads.
What!?
Paizo does not put up official FAQs for tertiary splats, so this FAQ will not get an official response.
This is all centered on a feat from the Cheliax booklet. Feats, PrCs, magic items, etc. from these books are not held to the same standard of balance. If they work out really well, they find their way into core books.
Agile and Guided are OP unbalanced weapon enchants, so they did not make it over to Ultimate Equipment. Fury's Fall did not make it into a core book either. If it does, it will get a FAQ. Until then, they aren't going to police every single thing that gets printed... just the stuff that forms the core of the game (UC, UM, APG, ARG, CRB, Beastiaries, etc.)
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Here is a form of the question that uses only rulebooks from the main core line: A character multiclasses as a paladin and an oracle. He takes the Sidestep Secret revelation from the Lore mystery, which enables him to modify his Reflex saves with charisma instead of dexterity. He is already adding his charisma modifier to all saves because of the paladin divine grace feature.
So what happens in this case? Does he get to add his charisma bonus twice? Or does he only get it once with the choice of which version to take (presumably divine grace if his dexterity modifier is positive, or Sidestep Secret if it is negative)?
Well then, that is probably how the question should be raised.
Unfortunately, the most common form has been "can I get double dex from Fury's Fall?"
Start a thread for those questions instead, and you might get somewhere.
But even without a FAQ, there is no rule against any of these combos. At least, not in the RAW. GMs may see things differently on a case by case basis.
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I didn't for this... I just wanted to know where it was in the rules O.o
Another situation (to fuel the fire) involves an obviously untyped bonus, the mixture of what happens to a familiars EWL when a 20th level wizard takes the Eldritch Heritage:Arcane feat. Even though the gained sorcress power clearly states it stacks with wizard levels for calculation the abilities of your familiar (You only really get AC and intelligence, nothing else...), people claim that adding your wizard class level and your character level is double dipping from the same source, an untype "levels" source.
So what would it be? Can a level 20 wizard have 37 EWL in his familiar?
I don't think CMB can be BAB+STR+DEX when you use Fury's Fall because Strength and Dexterity are both ability scores, and that would be adding an ability score two times to a calculation, and that isn't allowed. So Fury's Fall doesn't actually do what the text says it does, because it can't.
So you cannot stack ability bonuses. And CMB can only get Dex OR Str but not both. Because the source is your character's ability scores, and since they have the same source, they can't stack.
Or maybe the source is your character, in which case you can't add your BAB to your STR or your DEX, because all three of those numbers have the same source, 'your character' and therefore can't stack either. So you only can use one of those numbers.
I'm going to just continue believing this way, and completely ignore the fact that feats and abilities are the actual sources for these numbers.