Deciding between Bard / Arcane Archer or Cavern Sniper

[Styger]

Hello all!

First time posting here, so I hope I give you all enough information. My friends and I began playing Pathfinder about a few weeks ago now, me running the sessions, and we've been enjoying it immensely.

We're about to begin going through Rise of the Runelords and one of my friends (one of the players) agreed to run a few of our sessions so that I can get involved in the plays a little more. That probably won't be until our 2nd or 3rd session, so I've got plenty of time to decide what to play as. We currently have a switch-hitter human ranger, a half-orc chain/bow ranger, a stout and devout dwarf cleric who solves problems with his hammer, and a nubile half-elf rogue.

I know I want to play as a Drow with a bow, and not because of Drizzt (I've not read Salvatore, yet!), just simply for the flavor of playing a CN Drow who decided to 'f-all' and go on walk-about. My only issue is do I play as a Bard and go into Arcane Archer, or play as a trained Cavern Sniper archetype? I like the idea of spells and imbuing my arrows with such, but I also am in favor of poisoning, moving, and striking all within the same turn. For bard, it's a matter of flavor as to how my charming delinquent has managed to survive so far, and the ability to play that face and support role for the party.

From a mechanics-wise point of view, which would you think would be better for my group? I've read many a guide, and at this point, it's breaking down the numbers and usefulness.

[Maxximilius]

At what level do you begin the game ? You may multiclass Cavern Sniper Fighter/Ninja Rogue for a charismatic ranged warrior with lots of skill points, charisma/face potential and special abilities.

You could poison your weapon swiftly, be efficient with your bow, plus you would be able to sneak attacks targets you put in the dark with your darkness arrows. You wouldn't get to actually imbue arrows with spells outside of your drow SLA, but well.

[Styger]

By the time I join in, I expect the party will be at around level 4, so I can play into that. I hadn't considered doing a Cavern Sniper multiclass option to help in the skills department. Very cool idea, I'll keep it in mind.

Additionally, I was thinking about scrapping the idea of Arcane Archer, and going full-fledged Arcane Duelist, so I keep my bard abilities for combat, and still have access to my spells and what not while being able to combat more effectively.

Ideas about that?

[Dorian 'Grey']

I am having trouble deciding on my Bard too. We are starting a new campaign next session and I have never played a Bard. I really like the Sandman variant, but i don't know if i want to give up Bardic Knowledge.

For your idea, the Arcane duelist does sound like the way to go. There are so many cool variants for the Bard that it is difficult to chose just one.

Welcome to PF!

[Maxximilius]

It depends on what you want exactly. Do you want damage ? Bard spells ? Skills ? Specific abilities like unfusing spells on arrows, poisons ?

[Styger]

I guess in the end, I want to play a charismatic Drow who became fed up with simply living underground and being the thing that goes bump in the night, and so he decided to branch out a bit. So following that, I'd say he would be more military trained in terms of abilities, and just naturally charismatic. So losing the versatile performances could help flesh out that side of him, since he'll still have his standard abilities as a bard to rally the troops and affect his foes.

By taking Arcane Duelist vs. Archer, I still can do some level of enchanting, as well as gain a bonded item for casting spells in mid combat with ease. I also gain the rest of my bardic abilities, except versatile and well-versed. It would also mean that I could work as a support role in the group, improving our efforts while deterring the foe's, and then acting as a secondary combat role. To make him more versatile, is it possible to take two weapon focus feats? Shortbow and Longsword? Or is that reaching too far?

[XMorsX]

Go Bard, fits more your theme and supplements better your team, both with your arcane magic and your bardic performances.

Going for an archer Arcane Duelist seems better to me than going into the Arcane archer prc. By taking Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes you can take advantage of your disruptive and spellbreaker bonus feats.

A two-lvl dip in Divine Hunter paladin will give you Precise Shot free, Cha to saves, proficiency with longbows, smite 1/day and some swift action healing. It is worth it if you are up to the challenge of roleplaying a Drow paladin.

A less good, but still solid dip is a two-lvl dip in Lore Warden figher, granting you two bonus feats + Combat Expertise (pretty useless to you but still better than bravery) as well as 4 + INT skill points per lvl.

Of course you can stay single class Bard, I do suggest though at least a 1 lvl dip in Lore Warden in order to take your feats in time.

You can take multiple times weapon focus, each time applying it to a different weapon. Archery is a very feat-demanding combat style though, you will need all you feats for it, no room for specialization to more weapons.

A sample archer arcane duelist:

1 Fighter Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Bard
3 Bard Rapid Shot, Combat Casting (bonus)
4 Bard
5 Bard Weapon Focus (composite longbow)
6 Bard
7 Bard Disruptive (bonus), Deadly Aim
8 Bard
9 Bard Snap Shot
10 Bard
11 Bard Spellbreaker (bonus), Combat Reflexes
12 Bard
13 Bard Improved Snap Shot
14 Bard
15 Bard Penetrating Strike (bonus), Discordant Voice
16 Bard
17 Bard Manyshot
18 Bard
19 Bard Greater Penetrating Strike (bonus), Clustered Shots
20 Bard

[XMorsX]

XMorsX wrote:

Go Bard, fits more your theme and supplements better your team, both with your arcane magic and your bardic performances.

Going for an archer Arcane Duelist seems better to me than going into the Arcane archer prc. By taking Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes you can take advantage of your disruptive and spellbreaker bonus feats.

A two-lvl dip in Divine Hunter paladin will give you Precise Shot free, Cha to saves, proficiency with longbows, smite 1/day and some swift action healing. It is worth it if you are up to the challenge of roleplaying a Drow paladin.

A less good, but still solid dip is a two-lvl dip in Lore Warden figher, granting you two bonus feats + Combat Expertise (pretty useless to you but still better than bravery) as well as 4 + INT skill points per lvl.

Of course you can stay single class Bard, I do suggest though at least a 1 lvl dip in Lore Warden in order to take your feats in time.

You can take multiple times weapon focus, each time applying it to a different weapon. Archery is a very feat-demanding combat style though, you will need all you feats for it, no room for specialization to more weapons.

A sample archer arcane duelist:

1 Fighter Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Bard
3 Bard Rapid Shot, Combat Casting (bonus)
4 Bard
5 Bard Weapon Focus (composite longbow)
6 Bard
7 Bard Disruptive (bonus), Arcane Strike
8 Bard
9 Bard Snap Shot
10 Bard
11 Bard Spellbreaker (bonus), Combat Reflexes
12 Bard
13 Bard Improved Snap Shot
14 Bard
15 Bard Penetrating Strike (bonus), Improved Precise Shot
16 Bard
17 Bard Discordant Voice
18 Bard
19 Bard Greater Penetrating Strike (bonus), Manyshot
20 Bard

Added IPS and Arcane Strike instead of Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots

[Dorian 'Grey']

Arcane duelist grants Arcane Strike free.
I like the idea of a ranged Arcane Duelist,
but you really need to be committed to it.
it takes up all your feats to do it right....but still a fun concept.

I am going with Archivist for the trapfinding and knowledges.

[Styger]

XMorsX, that is a brilliant layout and I think I may just have to use it. I had not previously considered starting as the Fighter variant, Lore Warden, before; but it makes sense the more I think about it. As Arcane Duelist gains Arcane Strike at the first strike, what would you suggest I replace the feat with instead? I had considered Extra Performance, or possibly Awakened Arcane Bond (I doubt there is a risk of it being destroyed during our campaign).

*Never mind with the Arcane Bond feat, fan generated

[XMorsX]

Yes you are right, I forgot about Arcane Strike. Take Combat Reflexes at 7th lvl, so that you can take Discordant Voice at 11th lvl (which is an amazing buff for your team) and then add Deadly Aim at 17th lvl.

[Wiggz]

I've been running an Arcane Duelist (Bard archetype built as an archer) through Rise of the Runelords and I've been VERY pleased with the results thus far.

I chose Human for the favored class bonus of extra spells and the bonus feat and then dipped two levels of Divine Hunter to get Precise Shot for free, a daily Smite, a handful of extra Lay on Hands (he's technically the group's only healer) and the saving throw kicker of Divine Grace. He's been effective as a group face, as a buffer, healer and as a legitimate source of ranged damage.

Now based on your character concept, I know that both Human and a Paladin dip are likely inappropriate, but nonetheless I'd like to make the point that an Arcane Duelist makes for an excellent non-martial archer and can help the group in a variety of ways. In my particular case I eventually took Combat Reflexes and the Snap Shot line allowing me some nice opportunities for AoO's and really making life miserable for opposing spellcasters.

EDIT: Included my build for picking apart (Paladin Levels taken at 2nd & 3rd)...

Human 15th level Bard (Arcane Duelist) / 2nd level Paladin (Divine Hunter)
Human favored class bonus option for Bards

Attributes:(20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th & 8th levels)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14 (+1 @ 12th & 16th levels)

Traits:
Magical Knack
Maestro of the Society

Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Rapid Shot
1st - Arcane Strike*
2nd - Precise Shot
3rd - Weapon Focus: Bow
4th - Combat Casting*
5th - Deadly Aim
7th - Arcane Bond (Bow)*
7th - Combat Reflexes
8th - Disruptive*
9th - Snap Shot
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Spellbreaker*
13th - Improved Snap Shot
15th - Manyshot
16th - Penetrationg Strike*
17th - Improved Precise Shot

* - Bonus feats from Arcane Duelist

Skills:
Diplomacy - 1/level
Sense Motive - 1/level
Perception - 1/level
Perform: Oratory - 1/level*
Stealth - 1/level
Use Magic Device - 1/level*
Knowledge: Arcana - 1/odd level*
Knowledge: History - 1/even level*
Knowledge: Local - 1/odd level*
Knowledge: Religion - 1/even level*

* - except Paladin levels

[Styger]

Wiggz wrote:

Human 15th level Bard (Arcane Duelist) / 2nd level Paladin (Divine Hunter)
Human favored class bonus option for Bards

Attributes:(20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th & 8th levels)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14 (+1 @ 12th & 16th levels)

Traits:
Magical Knack
Maestro of the Society

Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Rapid Shot
1st - Arcane Strike*
2nd - Precise Shot
3rd - Weapon Focus: Bow
4th - Combat Casting*
5th - Deadly Aim
7th - Arcane Bond (Bow)*
7th - Combat Reflexes
8th - Disruptive*
9th - Snap Shot
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Spellbreaker*
13th - Improved Snap Shot
15th - Manyshot
16th - Penetrationg Strike*
17th - Improved Precise Shot

* - Bonus feats from Arcane Duelist

Skills:
Diplomacy - 1/level
Sense Motive - 1/level
Perception - 1/level
Perform: Oratory - 1/level*
Stealth - 1/level
Use Magic Device - 1/level*...

I like the ideas here, but yeah I think it might be difficult to roleplay that choice to become a paladin, even for the dips. Too... sensible and "goodie goodie", but excellent ideas nonetheless. What would you suggest for the Arcane Bonded Spell though, for this role?

[Caradwen]

My apologies for returning to the thread, as it seems somewhat concluded, but I would like to ask your advice regarding the following - I am currently playing a bard in Carrion Crown. We have just hit level 4 and I believe the end of Book One for that AP.

Now... I have been enjoying the character a lot, except for one single detail - contribution in combat. From what I have read, I am aware that this first book is a difficult one(will not add details or spoilers here), as far as opponents go, and it is understandable that mt character had issues in contributing to the team combat effort, but still I believe that is not all there is to it.

My GM has been quite flexible, and has given us the option of changing a couple of things around in our characters - he has not imposed a limit on this besides a certain coherence and logic, so that we keep "the same character".

That being said, I am looking for ways to change up my character to perhaps head more in the direction of the one that Wiggz has posted - here's what my girl looks like at the moment:

Bard:

Caradwen
Human Bard (Dirge Bard, Sound Striker) 4
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +9
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 27 (4d8+4)
Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +4; +1 morale bonus vs. charm and fear, +4 vs. fear, energy drain, death effects, and necromantic effects
Resist haunted eyes
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee masterwork longsword +5 (1d8+1/19-20/×2) and
. . scorpion whip +4 (1d4+1/×2)
Ranged shortbow +6 (1d6+1/×3) and
. . sling +6 (1d4+1/×2)
Special Attacks bardic performance, bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate, bardic performance: inspire courage, bardic performance: wordstrike
Bard (Dirge Bard, Sound Striker) Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +8):
2nd (2/day)—cacophonous call (DC 16)
1st (4/day)—saving finale (DC 15), hideous laughter (DC 15), grease (DC 15), chill touch (DC 15), cure light wounds
0 (at will)—mage hand, detect magic, mending, read magic, prestidigitation (DC 14), ghost sound (DC 14), message, light
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Eldritch Heritage, Lingering Performance, Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion))
Traits teacher's pet, two-world magic
Skills Bluff +8, Diplomacy +14, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +4, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (planes) +4, Knowledge (religion) +16 (+18 to identify undead creatures and their abilities), Perception +9, Perform (oratory) +11, Perform (percussion instruments) +11, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +3, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic
SQ bardic knowledge, secrets of the grave
Other Gear Chain shirt, Buckler, Arrows (20), Masterwork Longsword, Scorpion whip, Shortbow, Sling, Backpack, masterwork (empty), 9 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane When a spell level is increased by a metamagic feat, it gains +1 DC.
Bardic Knowledge +2 (Ex) Add +2 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (14 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (2 targets) (DC 16) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Bardic Performance: Wordstrike (1d4+4) (Su) Standard (can't reduce), sonic dam to object, living creature takes half.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Familiar Bonus: +3 bonus on Diplomacy You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Haunted Eyes (Ex) +4 to saves vs fear, energy drain, death and necromancy effects.
Lingering Performance Bardic Performances last 2 rds after you stop concentrating.
Secrets of the Grave (+2) (Ex) Undead lose imm to mind affecting, bonus to Knowledge (religion) vs undead.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Teacher's Pet (Knowledge [religion]) Professor Lorrimor traveled the Inner Sea region lecturing and teaching at universities in locations as far-flung as Manaket and Magnimar, and as different in scope as the bardic colleges of Taldor and the battle colleges of the River Kingdoms. Speak

The main issue here seems to be that:

- Taking the Arcane Duelist archetype now, would mean dropping my Dirge Bard one, and it has played an important part of the game we played so far;
- On the other hands, picking up Divine Hunter may or not be a stretch in terms of character concept... It would give me Precise Shot off the bat, which would be amazing (my GM will even allow me some stat reshiffling, maybe some more STR), because it would allow me to go ranged right away;
- Another option would be to drop the Eldritch Heritage and Skill Focus feats, and swapt them for point blank and precise shot, which would esentially also allow me to go Archer right away. My doubt here is, if I don't get access to the Arcane Duelist Archetype, besides losing other nice abilities, I lose also the Arcane Bond archetype ability, which I could compensate by using the Skill Focus+Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), thus and again not being able to take the archery related feats...
- Last but not least, do you think it would be worth it to focus my ranged abilities as if I was a "sort" of archer, but based around Weird Words (from the Soundstriker archetype) - my GM already informed me they are considered Ranged Touch Attacks, and as such subject to stuff like Point Blank + Precise, etc.

So, I guess my bottom line is - what do you guys think is the best way to approach this one?

Any suggestions would be welcome.

Thank you in advance.

[Caradwen]

*Shameless bump* ;)

[insaneogeddon]

Cavern Sniper is unique and under utilized. Their weapon training group gets +2 hit and damage at 5th. Also gloves of dueling count as weapon training as the errata its mentioned.

Amazing at stealth moving, being invisible and sniping. Can make pretty good use of vital strike. Lots of flavor. At high levels dropping darkness wherever you want provides great control. Being a noble always can be worth it with the right DM and acting ability.

[Maxximilius]

Caradwen: if you go the archery route, you'll first need the Arcane Strike feat. This feat alone will increase your damage by +1 per arrow, then +2 at 5th level, then +3 at 10th.
Then you need to increase your amount of attack rolls with Rapid Shot and spells like Allegro - so at 4th level, you'll be looking for 3 attacks/round while hasted + inspiring courage, so a base 1d6+2 going to 1d6+5 at 5th level with a +1 weapon.

But with stats like yours I'm afraid you'll have a hard time feeling efficient in combat. Arcane duelist wouldn't help much, especially if it breaks the character concept.

Weird words is an incredibly potent damage-dealing option - you'll be looking a 6 attacks dealing each 1d8+Charisma modifier on a hit. Each of them is treated as a ray that deals typed damage reduced by DR, so Arcane Strike would work too since rays are weapons. Only problem is this ability comes at 6th level, and by the time you'll have specialized in archery maybe (unless you don't take Rapid Shot and Manyshot at all).