Help me build a washed up old swordsman


Advice


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The Idea
Rule of Cool, except making it work mechanically.

Rambling
In an ongoing game I'm in, our DM has a tendency to throw very large, very capable enemies at our party. Standard fair, Minotaur barbarian by third level, large category black dragon with minions by fifth, 12th level PC classed, PC equipped and specced gunslinger by seventh.

After some rather disturbing realization of character mortality in my game, I began looking for a new build when my floating caster eventually gets taken out. We have an oracle buffer with some minor battlefield control, and a LOT of melee muscle in the form of a vanilla monk, and a sword saint/shield focused fighter to lay on some defence and hurt on things. We also posses a vanilla bow ranger laying on some ranged attacks and group bonuses.

I looked at a lot of different ideas, but another ranged character just isn't appealing to me, whether magic or weapon based. So I thought why not try something odd?

cutting to the chase
Melee debuffer.
Monk, with weapon adept and drunken master archetypes. As for what's allowed, anything pathfinder is A-OK, but too much cheesing is punished severely.

I don't have a specific build for this, it's a very new idea for me, with very little set in stone.

Our group uses a 4d6 standard roll for ability scores, and I was thinking of going for a human katana user, specializing in dirty trick and disarm as time goes on. The lack of flurry will hurt, but in blinding enemies, disarming them and letting them pick them up or fumble blindly, AoO's should help balance that out some.

Additionally, while reading through the wording on drunken strength, it's worded on the SRD as a melee attack, not an unarmed strike or monk weapon, so I could quite literally use it with any melee weapon as I read it, is this the case?

Other ideas I had were using the equipment trick with the scabbard as a ranged weapon, the occasional stunning fist, and possibly snake style. Or possibly the feint chain as opposed to one of the other maneuver?

The idea here is in terms of mechanics, to be a character that while isn't as severely a threat as the other frontline fighters, is dangerous when underestimated, or when fighting in conjuction with them.

As our DM is a sucker for roleplay, it's quite literally a washed up old swordsman, who's 'stunning fists' are represented in foul breath, fights in a dirty and honorless manner, and a surprising amount of skill at exploiting an enemy's vulnerabilities. Ideally someone to continually cripple enemies and garner their attention from other squishy people, and back it up with some emergency defence should crippling them fail.

Finally, would there be any way to make this sort of character viable at different age categories? I've been a sucker for older characters, but I can never find a good way to make a melee one work.

Shadow Lodge

Monk with a katana, you say?


Yes, he did.


Thanks for the input. So Thugsalot, you're saying to more-or-less take the 1 level dip into cleric to cheese my way into attacking with my WIS modifier, right? Originally, I hadn't even considered multiclassing options, out of a desire to keep things cheese free, but this could be worthwhile. Thanks for the tip, and since it's only a one-level dip, it should be fine.

And Kazaan, thanks for that, bookmarking for future reference, but our DM tends to starve us for gold. Not intentionally, but despite our DM's reasonable attempts, our average character wealth by 7th level was about 8-10K GP per character. When someone came in using the charts, the DM was surprised to learn we were 'normally' at twice that in character value. So it may be a while before I can work with anything like that.

Thanks for the input, but is the rest of my idea sound? Further, as I mentioned, has anyone had success in higher age categories for such a fighty type?


Playing an middle-aged or old melee character... tricky. Middle age is -1 to Str, Con, Dex and +1 to Int, Wis, Cha; Old is -2 to the physical, another +1 to the mental.

So, build a character where the benefits to the mental stats balance (or, ideally, outweigh) the damage taken from the physical stats. A Monk with Guided Hand uses Wis for attacks, ki points, and AC, so that's a reasonable starting point.

Doug M.


Shiney wrote:

When someone came in using the charts, the DM was surprised to learn we were 'normally' at twice that in character value. So it may be a while before I can work with anything like that.

Charts?


igotsmeakabob11 wrote:
Shiney wrote:

When someone came in using the charts, the DM was surprised to learn we were 'normally' at twice that in character value. So it may be a while before I can work with anything like that.

Charts?

Suggested wealth by level.


If you dip Oracle, you can pick up either Sidestep Secret from Lore mystery or Nature's Whispers from Nature mystery; both of them sub Charisma for Dexterity for your AC. So with one of those, you'll get Cha + Wis for AC instead of Dex + Wis. Normally, I'd go for Nature's Whispers since it's an Ex ability and applies to both AC and CMD and doesn't suffer from armor's max Dex limitation, but if you're going for Monk, Sidestep Secret might be better. SS doesn't boost CMD, but affects Reflex instead, though it's a Su ability so it shuts off if magic is nullified. Scion of War will let you use Cha in place of Dex for Initiative.

I'd say ditch the Katana and use a Quarterstaff instead. He's a washed up old warrior who doesn't feel he can handle his sword anymore so he's switched to a big stick. Katana doesn't, by RAW, qualify for Perfect Strike. Instead, use a Quarterstaff two-handed and pick up Power Attack. Get Toughness as well to even out your HP. It's tough to predict your stats if you're using rolls, but you'll want to dump Dex, avoid dumping Str below 9 for encumbrance purposes, and try to get at least a +0 out of your Con after the age modifiers (-1 if you go for middle age, -3(total) if you go for old). You'll want at least 13 Int so you can take Combat Expertise and work on things like Greater Disarm and Greater Trip. When you dip Cleric to pick up Channel to qualify for Guided Hand, take the Crusader archetype so you get Weapon Focus in the deal. Drop the armor so you get your Wis to AC and, instead, pick up Gunman's Duster for +4AC on a body slot item (it isn't armor so it doesn't affect Monk abilities) and +2 luck bonus to Touch AC vs firearms to boot (less useful if there aren't many firearm-wielding opponents). Maybe he even has Amateur Gunslinger because of his lack of confidence in his martial skills. He basically feels that he's not a great damage dealer anymore (and, given -1 or -3 to Str, not surprising) so he instead focuses on battlefield support, disarming and tripping and such. It will take a lot of dipping, but if you are Half-Elf, you can take Multitalented mastery and all your classes count as favored classes.

You'll need the following dips:
Oracle 1 for Sidestep Secret (lore mystery) or Nature's Whispers (nature mystery)
Cleric 1 for Channel Energy (to qualify for Guided Hand) and wFocus as gravy.
Ranger 2 for Power Attack
(optional) Pistolero 2 for gun and Nimble Dodge. Go to lvl 4 for a bonus feat and second deed, but don't take lvl 5 for Gun Training unless you have at least +0 Dex mod.
(optional) Paladin 2 for Divine Grace (Cha to all saves).

Stat priorities: Wis=Cha>Con(at least 13 if old, 11 if middle-aged)>Int(at least 11 if old, 12 if middle-aged)>Str(at least 8 if old, 10 if middle-aged)>Dex. Eldrich Heritage may also come in handy given that you're already pumping Cha.


OK, ignoring dips into spellcasting classes for cheese:

Maneuver master monk replaces flurry, which you can't normally use with a Katana, with "Flurry of Maneuvers, which you can.

Lore warden gives you bonuses to those dirty tricks and other maneuvers.

Dip a few levels in monk and go the rest Lore Warden. They're two great tastes that taste great together, and the combo totally plays as a washed up swordsman without having to RP justify weird 1-level dips. You were a monk, but you washed out of the abbey at some point, and have been a wandering swordsman ever since.

Shadow Lodge

Shiney wrote:
As our DM is a sucker for roleplay, it's quite literally a washed up old swordsman, who's 'stunning fists' are represented in foul breath, fights in a dirty and honorless manner, and a surprising amount of skill at exploiting an enemy's vulnerabilities. Ideally someone to continually cripple enemies and garner their attention from other squishy people, and back it up with some emergency defence should crippling them fail.

Hmm.... Fighter[Unarmed]/monk[Sohoi] mutliclass?

...it would give you proficiency, and eventually Weapon Training, in all monk weapon, including exotics.


it's a real shame they havent updated monks to simply use the whole monk weapon group, instead of just the few they have (leaving them with monk weapons that monks cant use, which is absolutely retarded)


A halfelf with the Ancestral Arms racial trait gets to pick whatever weapon he wants.


I would like to see more of a dirty fighting feel added to this build, rather than optimization;

Vicious Stomp, Catch off Guard, Felling Smash, Betrayer - more flavor and feats with creative uses suiting the character than actual combat prowess

Someone who has grown out of the idea of nobility and glory and is more geared toward what works, regardless of how underhanded it might be


First off, a massive thanks to everyone for their input, I've ended up with a lot more to think about than I thought I would stepping into this. That said,

Diminuendo wrote:

I would like to see more of a dirty fighting feel added to this build, rather than optimization;

Vicious Stomp, Catch off Guard, Felling Smash, Betrayer - more flavor and feats with creative uses suiting the character than actual combat prowess

Someone who has grown out of the idea of nobility and glory and is more geared toward what works, regardless of how underhanded it might be

I was looking for a good way to say exactly this, and Dimi did it perfectly, so thanks for that!


Maybe the Cad fighter archetype? Dirty tricks... Dirty trick everywhere. Alternatively, a Gladiator/Brawler?


What about a Drunken Master Sensei? Uses wisdom for combat so older is better. Wanders around the battlefield, drinking saki and spouting off about how poor his allies form is and what they should do to improve it (providing them with bard song bonuses). Occasionally, he says, "no! No! No! Hit him here...like this!" And does his monk damage+drunken strength or stunning fist.

You can get most of the +/- to hit and AC debuff effects by flanking or aid another actions and just fluffing the RP. On that thought, you could do this concept with a slightly different bend. The old guard who has spent his whole life protecting people who do their best to get themselves killed. Chastises everyone as suicidal fools, but can't help but step in and stop the blows that would take them down. Go honor guard cavalier, order of the dragon and throw out +4 aid another actions or intercepts with the Bodyguard feat. Spend time complaining about being sick of fighting and just absentmindedly turn blows away that would kill your party. Then, when you finally snap, you issue your challenge and show what kind of swordsman you were in your youth.


I think if I make a character like this I'll go for more of a loaner...

Maybe in his origin he was a fairly successful guard (maybe even directly under a king/empress) and full of confidence. Early career milestones at his age and no previous notable failures in his duties.

He was then promoted to the royal guard, too early, where he failed to protect a member of the royal family. whilst they wern't killed they suffered a life long disability (like blindness maybe)

This failure shattered his confidence.

Aspirations crushed, with no potential for promotion, whilst also being too much of a celebrity from his previous achievements strip of his position. He became an alcoholic, quietly continuing his service in reparation for his mistake.


I've been working on this build - I think I've got a potent combination of Drunken Master, Monk of the Sacred Mountain and a dip in Lore Warden that suits a dirty fighting washed up guard. Uses the monk class but doesn't have the refined monk flavor

this build is not optimised; it is entirely flavor. If someone wants to make it more viable in combat than I have when I post it, have at it.


If your Gm allows it there is a fighter archetype Dirty Fighter that would seem to suit this perfectly although RAW you would have to play an orc.


Shiney wrote:

cutting to the chase

Melee debuffer.

Melee debuffer? Someone called?

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