What are the "best" builds to make up a party?

[Thank Dog]

If you were going to build a party of 5 PC's, what would the best builds for each PC be that makes a well rounded party that compliments each other's abilities?

By builds I mean the ones in the optimisation guides like the archer paladin or cagm barbarian, etc. What combinations work really well together so that no-one feels outshined and everyone gets to pull off some awesome in every session?

Feats, traits, races, classes, archetypes, skills, heck even spell choices for every character in the party are up for grabs to recommend. I guess I'm asking, "Build me an uber party!" Well, it's not really a request so much as it is that I'm curious to see what people come up with and what the parties look like when people aren't choosing individually but rather as a collective. Would be cool to see people's choices.

[Jaelithe]

It might depend on the party's goals, Thank Dog. Rounded is relative to objective.

[Tin Foil Yamakah]

Fighter, priest, wizard, thief, bard.

[williamoak]

I'm gonna go non-conventional:

Magus, Inquisitor, Ninja, Samurai, oracle

Honestly, anything can work with the right GM.

[Thank Dog]

The objective is to play a party from 1st to 20th level across a wide gamut of roleplaying and combat and across all areas of possibility in a standard fantasy setting, i.e. dungeon, overland, undersea, planar, multiple energy types, etc. A proper party optimised for a proper game, not one key condition or situation.

[TarkXT]

Honestly? It doesn't matter. As long as certain very base requirements and expectations can be met. It's very hard to build a group that cannot be successful.

Even if you wanted to "go crazy" you likely won't find what youa re looking for scrounging guides. Rather you'll find what you're looking for in a terrifyingly well coordinated group.

[Liegence]

Core Bard. It's awesome with 5 PC's, great out of the box no specialty type required. All knowledges basically covered here. Take stealth.

Big Cat Druid. Control caster, some support. Take stealth.

Ranger archer. Hunter bond preferred to share favored bonus, apply fav enemy to campaign if dm drops hints. Take stealth.

Wizard, conjurer. Splurge for an amazing Improved Familiar (Imp, Fae Dragon or the Azata). More control, summons. Dump enchantment and let the Bard cover that and other Cha activities. Out of class stealth and get invis and levitate/fly. Elf or gnome.

Dex Paladin. Half elf is good. Weapon bond your Agile one hand wep that you use. Buff, healing. Your damage comes from smite. Take stealth.

[nate lange]

IMHO, the best blend depends on the party... some players really need a single, simple focus in order to excel. a straightforward party can have 5 things that it really does well- 1 each; the best party though will cover more than 5 bases, because each character will do more than one thing. remember too that sometimes you can build a party that works better than the sum of its parts (in other words, the 5 strongest individual builds don't necessarily make the strongest group). the level (or level range) that you're playing at makes a difference too- some builds or combos don't really come together until a certain level, and others are great at one point but fall behind as levels go up...

all that said, i'll think about it and maybe try to post something...

[Scavion]

Seeker Oracle Buffer

Barbarian RAGEPOUNCE Animal Totem

Conjurer Wizard

Evangelist Reach Cleric

Paladin Archer

[Mysterious Stranger]

Druid with Animal companion
Paladin
Inquisitor
Wizard (Conjurer)
Bard (Archer)

4 characters able to heal so you do not need a dedicated healer

2 characters able to summon creatures increase the action economy.

2 full spell casters, 2 secondary spell casters, and a minor spell caster

3 characters able to cover social situations.

All knowledge skills are covered so better information on enemies.

3 characters able to scout in some fashion.

4 characters are competent in combat

All characters have good will saves so less likely to have to fight your own party

All roles have more than one character that can cover it so that the party is not crippled if one character goes down.

[Scavion]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Druid with Animal companion

Paladin
Inquisitor
Wizard (Conjurer)
Bard (Archer)

4 characters able to heal so you do not need a dedicated healer

2 characters able to summon creatures increase the action economy.

2 full spell casters, 2 secondary spell casters, and a minor spell caster

3 characters able to cover social situations.

All knowledge skills are covered so better information on enemies.

3 characters able to scout in some fashion.

4 characters are competent in combat

All characters have good will saves so less likely to have to fight your own party

All roles have more than one character that can cover it so that the party is not crippled if one character goes down.

Your party has a problem with status effects and ability damage/level drain. Its pretty difficult to just NOT have a cleric.

[TarkXT]

Scavion wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Druid with Animal companion

Paladin
Inquisitor
Wizard (Conjurer)
Bard (Archer)

4 characters able to heal so you do not need a dedicated healer

2 characters able to summon creatures increase the action economy.

2 full spell casters, 2 secondary spell casters, and a minor spell caster

3 characters able to cover social situations.

All knowledge skills are covered so better information on enemies.

3 characters able to scout in some fashion.

4 characters are competent in combat

All characters have good will saves so less likely to have to fight your own party

All roles have more than one character that can cover it so that the party is not crippled if one character goes down.

Your party has a problem with status effects and ability damage/level drain. Its pretty difficult to just NOT have a cleric.

Between the 5 of them you pretty much have everything covered. There's a lot of overlap wiht status removal and heal spells.

[nate lange]

you know, i thought about it and i realized there is another factor to consider- action economy... characters that can do more/round will have more to contribute to party success. with that in mind, here's a completely unreasonable party that should be able to handle anything....

easy mode:

4 people make vanilla summoners with melee monster eidolons (biggest, strongest, pouncing quadruped with max natural attacks plus arms and a greatsword/falchion as possible); all take eldritch heritage [arcane] and improved familiar (something that can use wands/scrolls); all choose different spells and skills (except UMD which you may all want for your familiars' sakes).

1 half-elf evangelist cleric- favor cha even over wis (though make sure you always have enough Wis for new spell levels); take sacred summons, augment summons, etc.; take eldritch heritage [arcane] for a bonded item; pick skills that aren't covered yet.

in combat everyone can buff/heal the eidolons, who should tear through most enemies; the cleric performs group buffs and can quickly summon augmented fodder- he can also channel to heal large groups of PCs, eidolons, and summoned monsters. meanwhile, all the familiars can use their turns for SLAs or to use wands/scrolls for whatever you need. out of combat- you should have face skills and knowledges well covered, plus a few others (plus perception and whatever else you give the eidolons). have the cleric prepare paragon surge- its a really handy spell all the way up but once you hit 11th level you can use it to take imp eldritch heritage [arcane], allowing you to 'learn' any wizard spell you need in an emergency (you'll have to use your bonded item to cast it, since you won't have prepared it).

a much more reasonable party might look something like this:

Ranger- favor Dex, take 2WF style, spend feats on weapon finesse and some archery, take butterfly's sting; fight primarily with kukris (keen ASAP). a good skills guy, decent ranged support, melee damage isn't very high on his own but he should crit often and can pass those crits to the magus (read butterfly's sting if you're not familiar).

Magus[kensai]- Str/power attack build, tetsubo favored weapon (yes, even though you give up spell combat); stack as many static bonuses to damage as possible (Str, PA, wpn spec, arcane strike, etc). some skills, secondary arcane caster (prepare 1-2 decent buffs/expected combat, a handful of attack spells for spell strike, and a good amount of utility spells), huge damage output... at first glance it doesn't seem like an enormous dpr build but whenever the ranger passes you a crit (which should be pretty often) use spellstrike to hit once (for x4 weapon plus x2 spell!)- this system largely negates the slow BAB issue because you're not that worried about hitting with iteratives, mostly just about connecting that one time when it counts (though you should be able to stack up enough bonuses that your damage in non-critting rounds is still respectable).

Cleric[evangelist]- similar to above, good Cha, summoning feats, use a reach weapon and pick up combat reflexes when you can afford it (just for some free AoOs). primary divine caster (prepare a good amount of summons, some group buffs that'll stack with performance, and status removal spells), battlefield 'control' (through placing summoned monsters), group buffs and heals (primarily through performance and channel), and face skills.

Witch [scarred witch doctor] (1/2 orc)- as much Con as possible, focus on hexes to debuff/control, take the 'ability focus' feat (if allowed) to up hex DCs. durable primary arcane caster (leaning toward utility spells, with decent amount of damage and Save or Suck spells), able to remove enemies from combat entirely with high DC hexes like slumber and (eventually) ice tomb. take improved familiar and get something that can use wands/scrolls for cures and whatever else.

the fifth spot could be almost anything... either shore up something you think might be weak based on your GM's tendencies (if lacking toughness add a pally or a dwarven barb; dpr, a fighter bow specialist; trapfinding and 'adventure' skills, an archaeologist bard or crypt breaker alchemist) or add in a generalist to support/back up everywhere (the summoner build above would work well for this- though could, at times, outshine others; or a druid with good physical stats who can wildshape and melee with his companion and offer some backup utility/blasting spells; or a melee bard or inquisitor who can add to combat, cast a variety of spells, and has a handful of good skills).

[Silent Saturn]

Five Gnome bards.

We will be four hours into the play session before anyone (GM included) notices that there is a campaign going on. At that point, it barely matters what the campaign actually is.

[Magda Luckbender]

Readers should note that Tark's link, above, is to an excellent and detailed essay that waxes eloquent on this very topic. Had he not already linked to it I would have. He answers the OPs question, in well thought out original detail. That link should be Sticky to this question.

[Renegadeshepherd]

again the point is to have fun but here we go. My party, and i expect to get a lot of lip on this. Plz read the strategy after the party so you understand the GROUP think. I call this party "The big mouths" for they talk the talk and walk the walk.

1) Half-elf master summoner with modest ranged attacks.
2) A Channeling cleric of Nethys with protection/defense and magic/divine domains. Back up summoner as well.
3) Tiefling Dex based magus.(lots of good choices here)
4) An aasimar paladin based on melee.
5) The skill monkey. I favor human vanilla bard of the top of my head based first and foremost on getting more and more skills.

The tactics are very simple, swarm the field with monsters between the summoner and cleric characters and then maximize the buffs and healing. Most people say, CORRECTLY, that channel positive energy, bardic performances, and other group buffs have problems. problems like scaling or action economy. But when u got 10+ allies in on the field it just gets ridiculous. The cleric is the key as can cast some meaningless divine spell on himself to boost POTENTIALLY the entire group plus summons +2 to a roll while maintain domain group buffs from protection/defense. In the same way the bard adds +1 to all any time he wants really. Is anyone going to complain about +3 to 10 allies most every turn that u want it?

The paladin is more or less the duelist against the BIG heavy hitters with massive DR and such and can save the group from any number of ugly status effects when need be (whats not to love?) The magus is a blaster, front man, and modest skill monkey too with a pretty good racial archetype if u want it in addition to the highest AC potential of the class that i know of.

Analysis:

4 mouths, 3 are competent in battle, 2 summon allies, 3 boost those allies, all have good will saves, 4 have good fort saves, 3 have good reflex saves (magus has great dex to make up for not having it though), all are spellcasters, 4 can talk well in social situations, all knowledge is covered. SOLID!

CONCLUSION: If there is a weakness it has to be the summoner. But that is accounted for as the rest of the group can save him from anything u name that a group should be facing.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Scavion wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Druid with Animal companion

Paladin
Inquisitor
Wizard (Conjurer)
Bard (Archer)

4 characters able to heal so you do not need a dedicated healer

2 characters able to summon creatures increase the action economy.

2 full spell casters, 2 secondary spell casters, and a minor spell caster

3 characters able to cover social situations.

All knowledge skills are covered so better information on enemies.

3 characters able to scout in some fashion.

4 characters are competent in combat

All characters have good will saves so less likely to have to fight your own party

All roles have more than one character that can cover it so that the party is not crippled if one character goes down.

Your party has a problem with status effects and ability damage/level drain. Its pretty difficult to just NOT have a cleric.

Not really as much as you think. Both the paladin and Inquisitor have restoration on their spell lists. Most of the other conditions can also be removed by multiple characters. The paladin also has mercies which can cover a lot of conditions. With Ultimate Mercy the paladin can even bring back someone from the dead. You also have the bard who is a charisma based caster with plenty of skill points who has UMD as a class skill. This might be a slight problem at very low levels but once the party is at mid to high level they will be fine.

Healing is something that should generally be done outside of combat not during combat. This is especially true of removing conditions. The best way to do this is through items instead of memorized spells. A properly equipped part will have wands and scrolls for this purpose.

[Gerald]

Scavion wrote:

Seeker Oracle Buffer

Barbarian RAGEPOUNCE Animal Totem

Conjurer Wizard

Evangelist Reach Cleric

Paladin Archer

I'm a fan of this party. I'd consider subbing in a witch for the oracle, but I like it anyway.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Gerald wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Seeker Oracle Buffer

Barbarian RAGEPOUNCE Animal Totem

Conjurer Wizard

Evangelist Reach Cleric

Paladin Archer

I'm a fan of this party. I'd consider subbing in a witch for the oracle, but I like it anyway.

One problem with this party is their spell list is limited. The cleric and oracle share the same spell list. Many of the paladin’s spells are also on the same list. This places a great deal of pressure on the Wizard because he has to provide all of the other spells. This also leads to a situation where the party can be neutralized or greatly weakened by taking out a single party member. Swapping out the oracle for the witch would be a good solution.

The other problem is the complete lack of any type of scouting character. The Barbarian is about the only character that can do any kind of scouting without using spells, and he is not really suited for this. If you are using spells to scout the only one that can do this is the wizard. This again leads to the situation where if the Wizard is taken out the party is greatly weakened.

[Atarlost]

If you can build a whole party you have the opportunity to get at exotic synergies.

For instance you can make an all stealth party, though you'll need items to replace the cleric because you need to use an oracle or inquisitor as your divine caster and the healing role depends on the ability to know the whole cleric list.

Or you could build a party of sylphs and humans with racial heritage sylph and use Cloud Gazer to build around asymmetrical visibility in cloud spells.

You can exploit Greater Ferocious Mount and/or Monastic Mount to turn wildshaped druids or eidolons (or synthesists) with the mount evolution much more dangerous and durable than they otherwise would be while ragelancepouncing or mountedskirmisherflurrying. If your GM is permissive enough to allow a small humanoid to ride a medium humanoid you can do this with other melee classes, and if he allows a small humanoid to ride a medium humanoid who's riding a large or huge druid or eidolon you can get a rage cascade because Greater Ferocious Mount transfers itself.

[Cap. Darling]

I like a wizard( he May be a evoker if he remember to control as well), a gunslinger( pehaps musket Master), a barbarian with beast totem, a Urban ranger( switch hitter) and an evangalist cleric( face, and buff) this is not the Best possibly team but i think it will be a fun one where every one have several partners for different stuff and every one have a Place to shine.

[Pendagast]

I long for the days of playing a classic group of Fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard... but it never happens... too many choices...no one ever orders cheese pizza anymore.

[Cory Stafford 29]

Magus, Summoner, Oracle with life mystery (channel focused), Ninja, and Bard

[Renegadeshepherd]

so if we can take anything from all these posts is that almost all of us favor someone who adds more allies, someone who heals/removes conditions and is a full caster, a skill monkey that isn't a rogue, a magus, and a random character.

[Nathanael Love]

Fighter Fighter Wizard Wizard Bard

[Lazurin Arborlon]

Damage dealer, damage taker, problem solver ...that's all you absolutely have to have and even those can over lap. If you have more spots add in a healer, talker and an enabler. Many classes cover these roles. Notably...

Damage dealer- Barbarian, Fighter, Ninja. magus

Damage taker - paladin, barbarian, fighter

Problem solver- wizard, sorcerer, witch, ranger

Healer- cleric, Druid, oracle

Enabler- bard, wizard, cleric

Talker- sorcerer, inquisitor, rogue, bard

In short it's not really about the class so much as the build. Sure there are some classes that can't cover certain roles...but most with a little work can cover many,

[Atarlost]

Pendagast wrote:

I long for the days of playing a classic group of Fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard... but it never happens... too many choices...no one ever orders cheese pizza anymore.

Of course no one orders cheese pizza. Cheese doesn't even count as a topping. You order pepperoni or mushroom at a minimum and all include the cheese. Going with a cheese pizza is like going with a party of all NPC classes, none of whom are adepts. (but at least you're not getting a commoner. That'd be snacking on the complementary breadsticks and then leaving without actually ordering anything.)

[Eryx_UK]

Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Cleric and Sorcerer.

There is a reason why it is a classic line up.

[Kthulhu]

Warrior, expert, adept, aristocrat

[Atarlost]

Eryx_UK wrote:

Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Cleric and Sorcerer.

There is a reason why it is a classic line up.

Not really. Unless that cleric's an evangelist there's not enough buffing to bring a rogue up to snuff, the fighter's pretty much strictly inferior to a barbarian or a second paladin, and the sorcerer is worse than a wizard. There's no synergy here at all.

Something like Cleric, Wizard, Bard, Barbarian, Paladin is going to be better in every way.

[ElyasRavenwood]

It has probably been said before,

the classic Fighter Cleric Wizard Rogue Bard works. Each party member gets a moment to shine.

That might not be what you are looking for.

[nate lange]

Atarlost wrote:

Something like Cleric, Wizard, Bard, Barbarian, Paladin is going to be better in every way.

well... the fighter should have higher dpr in non-BBEG situations (including against BBNGs), but i agree about dropping the rogue and making sure you have more buffs

edit: i just realized you were replacing the fighter with a barb, for some reason i thought you were replacing him with a pally- that does make more sense. honestly, i really like playing pallies but i'm not sure they're the optimal choice in a lot of parties. i think in that party you might be better off with a ranger (or maybe switch the wiz for a witch and the pally for an early entry EK).

[Scavion]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Gerald wrote:

Scavion wrote:

Seeker Oracle Buffer

Barbarian RAGEPOUNCE Animal Totem

Conjurer Wizard

Evangelist Reach Cleric

Paladin Archer

I'm a fan of this party. I'd consider subbing in a witch for the oracle, but I like it anyway.

One problem with this party is their spell list is limited. The cleric and oracle share the same spell list. Many of the paladin’s spells are also on the same list. This places a great deal of pressure on the Wizard because he has to provide all of the other spells. This also leads to a situation where the party can be neutralized or greatly weakened by taking out a single party member. Swapping out the oracle for the witch would be a good solution.

The other problem is the complete lack of any type of scouting character. The Barbarian is about the only character that can do any kind of scouting without using spells, and he is not really suited for this. If you are using spells to scout the only one that can do this is the wizard. This again leads to the situation where if the Wizard is taken out the party is greatly weakened.

Scouting is honestly a bit overrated. Unless you've invested heavily into it with stealth or use magic, its quite unlikely to be successful and someone gets killed.

If you absolutely need someone to scout, swap Paladin with an Archer Ranger. Pump one favored enemy really high (I recommend Humans) and get a wand of instant enemy. Rock some fools.

The Oracle can trapfind, I'm just covering my bases here. If a Conjurer wizard with the Teleportation subschool gets owned with 2 possible healers theres a bigger problem going on and one that'll only last an encounter. Cleric is doing Battlefield Control and handling utility spells to help the Wizard carry the load. The Cleric most likely picks up Sacred Summons at one point to further that goal. Cleric is rocking the Glory Domain for Heroism buff on all summons and party members.

The Oracle can actually be a frontliner as well if you like or they can focus on casting. I recommend dex builds with Dervish Dance. That way their Disable Device will be really high. Make sure you get Militant Merchant for the Oracle so he has Perception as a class skill. The important thing is this party has 3 full casters, Massive DPR, Action Economy, and Utility.

As for your party Mysterious Stranger, the Inquisitor gets Restoration at 10th level and the Paladin gets it at 13th. My personal experience has lead me to believe that is unacceptable. You can start bumping into negative levels as soon as 6th/7th level.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

I recommend a party consisting of 13 Dwarf fighters of various archetypes, 1 Halfling Aristocrat/Rogue, and a High Level Fire Druid who drops in occasionally.

Alternately, a party consisting of 1 human switch hitter ranger, 1 human fighter, 1 dwarf fighter, 1 elf archer, 1 halfling aristocrat-fighter, 3 halfling commoner/fighters, and a high level fire Druid

[Arcutiys]

Five orc Bards. All specializing in the flute. Can't go wrong!

[Atarlost]

A strix evangelist cleric of Erastil, a dwarven druid, an oread druid, an oread sohei monk, and a human invulnerable urban barbarian.

The barbarian is a rage lance pounce spell sunder build. He rides on the oread druid that prefers to shape as a dire tiger or allosaurus.

The monk has mounted skirmisher and rides the dwarven cleaving vital striking behemoth hippo druid with more emphasis on wisdom.

The druids toss out control spells before moving into melee, making them part time anvils. The cleric is mostly arm, but also does some anviling with summons. The druids, barbarian, and sohei are a whole lot of hammer.

Against flying enemies the druids change into giant vultures and everyone else pulls out bows. In typical 10' wide hallways the dwarf downgrades to arsinoitherium or possibly dire hyena depending on whether he'd rather have reach or massive damage at the moment. 5' hallways are bad for any party.

[Alexander Augunas]

The best party comp is one that allows all of the players to be involved, useful, and engaged in all aspects of play.

[nate lange]

Atarlost wrote:

5' hallways are bad for any party.

that's not 100% true... the much maligned 'tank' really comes into his own in a 5' hallway- the enemies have to try to fight there way through him, and finally after complaining about his damage for several session everyone is glad they kept him around (well... glad they brought him in to that situation, at least).

[Thank Dog]

Arcutiys wrote:

Five orc Bards. All specializing in the flute. Can't go wrong!

That would certainly scare me!

[TarkXT]

nate lange wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

5' hallways are bad for any party.

that's not 100% true... the much maligned 'tank' really comes into his own in a 5' hallway- the enemies have to try to fight there way through him, and finally after complaining about his damage for several session everyone is glad they kept him around (well... glad they brought him in to that situation, at least).

Only if the enemy is flat out stupid (which to be fair can be quite a few unintelligent enemies). A 5ft. wide hallway is not where you want to be in a fight. You can't get flanks, you can't manuever well, ranged attacks are heavily nerfed, and you just generally don't have much room to bring actions to bear on the enemy.

Also keep in mind the PC's are usually the aggressors in such a scenario meaning that it's the enemies house they're invading, so they'll take advantage of this knowledge and back off chucking ranged attacks at the front liner possibly trying to draw him across traps or into far worse territory. They may even go around and attempt to flank the group putting loads of pressure on the back end and crushing the group in on itself.

It's almost always better for a group to be willing to retreat to a wider room where they can bring their action economy to bear much more strongly or otherwise be able to shove through an enemy line and into a better battle space.

Believe me it's no fun to be stuck in a 5ft. corridor.

[Sir Thugsalot]

1) halfling rogue(X)/paladin(Y) multiclass, both core
2) human "reach cleric" with the Travel domain and DEX:14+
3) elf Teleporter with Ears and Ears trait and a hawk familiar
4) gnome ranger(2)/bard(X) with EWP:Repeating Crossbow
5) dwarf fighter/barbarian with Steel Soul and Raging Vitality

5 races, 8 classes, over a dozen known languages
3 melees with different combat styles (S&B,AoOs,2hPA)
2 full-class casters, including one professional healer
2 dabbler healers
3 "faces"
3 with Survival as a class skill
4 with Perception as a class skill
1 "archer" built without blowing a ton of feats or being a one-trick-pony
1 with ability to locate and disarm magical traps, and eat the infrequent failures
1 with Smite and Detect Evil
2 with Channeling
2 with Sense Motive as a class skill
3 with Use Magic Device as a class skill