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I'm only a 2nd level Cleric but I feel a bit low on the defensive side with only Medium Armor. I'd have to use a Feat just to take Heavy Armor. The major advantage of taking one level of Fighter is that I'd get the Heavy Armor for "free" plus another "free" feat. But, I also don't like the fact that if I take 1 level of Fighter, I'll never be able to play a 6th level spell in PFS regular play (since I'd get that at 11th level).
What do you guys think?
If all you want from the dip is a single feat, it's usually better to just spend a feat rather than dip (especially for a caster). It won't only mean you'll not get 6th level spells till 12th, but all of your other spells will be a level behind the curve as well.
If you want more than the feat, or the build makes some other sense for a backstory point of view, then sure dip away.
This is only my personal preference in this situation though.
If you want to play it as a battle cleric, then by all means go for it. But if you're playing more of a support role, then I wouldn't recommend it just for the better defenses. If you post your build, you can probably get better advice.
Looking towards the long term, spending a whole level on fighter is probably more expensive than just spending the feat. Use feats for tweaking, and class levels for dividing your character's abilities entirely between two different sets of capabilities.
So first off, decide if you just want heavy armor, or whether you really feel an entire level of fighter is more appropriate for what you're looking for in that character.
What are your clerics stats? Do you usually fight in melee or cast spells at people?
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Speaking as a fellow cleric, don't think of it as "I need heavy armor," think of it as "I want X armor class".
If you're wanting a really solid armor class, there are things to consider besides just heavy armor. To demonstrate:
If you have full plate (and its maximum allowed DEX), then before considering shields or other slots, your bonus to AC is +10 (+9 armor, +1 DEX).
So if your goal is to have that tier of armor class, then look at all your options for hitting +10.
For instance, I have 14 DEX, a breastplate, and the Armor of the Pit feat. This means I have (before other slots, upgrades, etc; for the sake of comparison) +2 DEX, +6 armor, and +2 natural armor for a total of +10.
That means that even with medium armor I was able to hit the same baseline AC as someone with heavy armor.
Be aware that simply maxing out your DEX to AC will only put a medium armor user 1 point shy of a heavy armor user. So if you can afford a 16 DEX, you're talking about spending a feat for +1 AC and –lots to skills (armor check penalty).
If you can only afford up to a 14 DEX, then the difference becomes +2. Now your heavy armor proficiency (HAP) is worth 2 AC, same as Armor of the Pit, except with heavier armor check penalties. On the other hand, if you took Dodge (+1 AC) and Fate's Favored (a trait, not a feat, which will put an extra +1 on the jingasa of the fortunate soldier that an AC build eventually wants anyway), then you've caught up to HAP but without the skill penalties and with a higher Touch AC.
If you can only afford up to a 12 DEX, then HAP becomes worth 3 AC, and is probably your best option if you really need to get that high of an armor class.
Hope that helps!
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If you want heavy armor, I highly recommend taking the level of fighter rather than spending the feat. In exchange for a slower progression on your spells, you gain feats instead of losing feats. Depending on archetype, you might gain a lot.
Unbreakable nets you your heavy armor as well as Endurance and Die Hard, which means if you go negative, you can still heal yourself back to positive and keep fighting.
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This may be an option for you depending on your build. But if you want to go defensive and don't care about hitting enemies, you can wear heavy armor without heavy armor proficiency. The only penalty is that the armor check penalty of your armor applies to your attacks.
So feel free to walk around in full plate with a tower shield and have a -15 to hit -- so long as you weren't planning on attacking in combat anyway.
Otherwise, I don't think sacrificing a level of spellcasting and channeling is worth the proficiency. If you really wanted it, I'd say just take the feat. Having the highest level spells possible really helps out on those odd numbered levels. Especially when the difference between medium and heavy armor is 3 (breastplate versus fullplate), you can make up that AC difference with some higher level spells, that you get by not gimping your casting progression.
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For me personally, if I am playing a "full" casting class, there is almost nothing I am willing to sacrifice a casting level for (1 monk splash on a druid being an exception for crazy AC potential).
I would advise spending the feat if all you are after is heavy armor proficiency. Note this information does not take into account your present build.
I myself am grabbing a level of barbarian for my dwarf cleric. The extra move, and the ability to rage and kill stuff when not casting is lovely. The d12 hp is also nice. If I want heavy armor at some pt, I will go for the feat. . .
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My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14
I planned on buying +1 Breast Plate. Shield of Faith is okay, giving additional +2 defense only for a minute or so (and advances +1 like every 6 levels).
The character's personality is one that is battle-hardened and he's not afraid to go into the front-lines, wielding a great axe, but he keeps a wary eye on this comrades to back-off and heal when necessary.
I look at the Full Plate option and eventually adding +1 would give me an extra +3 which might be helpful when my Cleric hits the front lines. I would also plan on taking a feat to add +1 to Armor Class (I forget off hand if/what that feat is).
I'm torn because of the already noted comments of letting the character keep gaining strength in spellcasting.
...hence why I posed the question! LOL
Great answers so far (might have to look into that Holy Vindicator class...but I've heard others say the Prestige Classes water down the potential strength of your "main" character/class). I'm still torn, though!!!
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My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14I planned on buying +1 Breast Plate. Shield of Faith is okay, giving additional +2 defense only for a minute or so (and advances +1 like every 6 levels).
The character's personality is one that is battle-hardened and he's not afraid to go into the front-lines, wielding a great axe, but he keeps a wary eye on this comrades to back-off and heal when necessary.
I look at the Full Plate option and eventually adding +1 would give me an extra +3 which might be helpful when my Cleric hits the front lines. I would also plan on taking a feat to add +1 to Armor Class (I forget off hand if/what that feat is).
I think you're going to be disappointed if you plan to fight on the front lines with a greataxe when you only have 13 STR to start. With a 16 to start and the right additions as you level, you can do well as a melee combatant. (I started with a 16 and I'm doing great at 9th level, but even that was complicated to achieve.) An 18 would be preferable if you can do it without hurting other things too badly, as then you wouldn't have to work quite as hard to keep up. But less than 16 (on a 3/4 BAB class) puts your melee capability solidly into "Plan B if I'm surrounded and can't cast" territory.
Which is of course fine, but if the feel you want is a battle-hardened frontliner, well, your experience won't end up matching your vision if you go in with 13 STR. You'll probably just be frustrated.
Building a melee cleric is not easy (certainly not as easy as a caster/support cleric). If you want gameplay to feel "in synch" with what you've described as your concept, you're going to have to prioritize things differently.
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Would you take a feat that gave you +1 casting progression including CL, prerequisite: another feat that gives you +1 effective channeler level and +1 level for domains?
Those two feats are called "not dipping Fighter".
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My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14I planned on buying +1 Breast Plate. Shield of Faith is okay, giving additional +2 defense only for a minute or so (and advances +1 like every 6 levels).
The character's personality is one that is battle-hardened and he's not afraid to go into the front-lines, wielding a great axe, but he keeps a wary eye on this comrades to back-off and heal when necessary.
I look at the Full Plate option and eventually adding +1 would give me an extra +3 which might be helpful when my Cleric hits the front lines. I would also plan on taking a feat to add +1 to Armor Class (I forget off hand if/what that feat is).
I think you're going to be disappointed if you plan to fight on the front lines with a greataxe when you only have 13 STR to start. With a 16 to start and the right additions as you level, you can do well as a melee combatant. (I started with a 16 and I'm doing great at 9th level, but even that was complicated to achieve.) An 18 would be preferable if you can do it without hurting other things too badly, as then you wouldn't have to work quite as hard to keep up. But less than 16 (on a 3/4 BAB class) puts your melee capability solidly into "Plan B if I'm surrounded and can't cast" territory.
Which is of course fine, but if the feel you want is a battle-hardened frontliner, well, your experience won't end up matching your vision if you go in with 13 STR. You'll probably just be frustrated.
Building a melee cleric is not easy (certainly not as easy as a caster/support cleric). If you want gameplay to feel "in synch" with what you've described as your concept, you're going to have to prioritize things differently.
You know...that makes sense. I must contemplate on this.
My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14
21 point buy? I'll assume that was meant to be 20 points.
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10 (should really be 7!), Wis 14, Cha 10.
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What specific feats are you referring to possibly taking?Would you take a feat that gave you +1 casting progression including CL, prerequisite: another feat that gives you +1 effective channeler level and +1 level for domains?
Those two feats are called "not dipping Fighter".
She's speaking rhetorically.
Think of it this way: the advantage of fighter is that you (1) don't lose a feat on your HAP, and (2) gain a bonus feat on top of that.
If you reverse the direction you're looking at it from, then that means the cost of not dipping fighter is that you "lose" two feats: you fail to gain the bonus feat, and you have to spend a feat slot on HAP.
So for the "cost" of two feats, you gain an additional level of cleric relative to your character level: so +1 caster level, increased spellcasting progression, you get your domain powers a level earlier, etc.
So imagine you already had a Fighter1/ClericX, and a new book came out with a pair of feats that would increase your effective cleric level - in ALL ways - by one. Would you take those two feats?
If not, dip fighter, because the two feats are more important.
If you would, then don't dip fighter, because the cleric level is more important than those two feats.
Make sense?
My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14I planned on buying +1 Breast Plate. Shield of Faith is okay, giving additional +2 defense only for a minute or so (and advances +1 like every 6 levels).
The character's personality is one that is battle-hardened and he's not afraid to go into the front-lines, wielding a great axe, but he keeps a wary eye on this comrades to back-off and heal when necessary.
I look at the Full Plate option and eventually adding +1 would give me an extra +3 which might be helpful when my Cleric hits the front lines. I would also plan on taking a feat to add +1 to Armor Class (I forget off hand if/what that feat is).
I'm torn because of the already noted comments of letting the character keep gaining strength in spellcasting.
...hence why I posed the question! LOL
Great answers so far (might have to look into that Holy Vindicator class...but I've heard others say the Prestige Classes water down the potential strength of your "main" character/class). I'm still torn, though!!!
Your point buy looks a bit off; I count 21 points (and all those odd numbers aren't helping).
If you've already played at second level or higher, you're locked into those stats, so I'd give up trying to be a melee guy at all. My cleric started with stats of 12/12/12/12/17/16 (as an Aasimar, with +2 Wis and Cha). He has the travel domain and a mithral breastplate, so he rocks a 40 foot move speed. He also has a buckler, and uses that hand to carry and use metamagic rods, but leaves the other hand open for somatic components.
So at level 10, he has 24 AC (+2 Mithral Breastplate, +2 Buckler, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor), and I'm ready to start investing in defenses again (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, upgrade his +2 Con belt to give +2 Dex as well, etc.). Since he stays in the back, AC isn't hugely important, but you WILL get targeted some times, and with moderate investment you can keep some of those hits away.
SUMMARY: Don't take a level in Fighter, because you'll still suck at fighting. Just keep on as a Cleric, and try to stay away from the bad guys.
Personally.... I'd just wear heavy armor..
Well, if you're not going to make any attack rolls anyway...
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My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14I planned on buying +1 Breast Plate. Shield of Faith is okay, giving additional +2 defense only for a minute or so (and advances +1 like every 6 levels).
The character's personality is one that is battle-hardened and he's not afraid to go into the front-lines, wielding a great axe, but he keeps a wary eye on this comrades to back-off and heal when necessary.
I look at the Full Plate option and eventually adding +1 would give me an extra +3 which might be helpful when my Cleric hits the front lines. I would also plan on taking a feat to add +1 to Armor Class (I forget off hand if/what that feat is).
I'm torn because of the already noted comments of letting the character keep gaining strength in spellcasting.
...hence why I posed the question! LOL
Great answers so far (might have to look into that Holy Vindicator class...but I've heard others say the Prestige Classes water down the potential strength of your "main" character/class). I'm still torn, though!!!
Your point buy looks a bit off; I count 21 points (and all those odd numbers aren't helping).
If you've already played at second level or higher, you're locked into those stats, so I'd give up trying to be a melee guy at all. My cleric started with stats of 12/12/12/12/17/16 (as an Aasimar, with +2 Wis and Cha). He has the travel domain and a mithral breastplate, so he rocks a 40 foot move speed. He also has a buckler, and uses that hand to carry and use metamagic rods, but leaves the other hand open for somatic components.
So at level 10, he has 24 AC (+2 Mithral Breastplate, +2 Buckler, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor), and I'm ready to start investing in defenses again (Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, upgrade his +2 Con belt to give +2 Dex as well, etc.). Since he stays in the back, AC isn't hugely...
I think I'm going through AC envy right now. I suppose after a lot more play and a lot more gold I'll have similar opportunities to upgrade the armor, though.
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Personally.... I'd just wear heavy armor..Well, if you're not going to make any attack rolls anyway...
I always was of the belief that Clerics were a partial fighter and not meant to be just blasting spells away. Especially, at low levels they're pretty powerless on the spell side...and forget about long battles and counting on spells to last.
I like the fighter dip, but I'm not sure your stats are right for it.
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I always was of the belief that Clerics were a partial fighter and not meant to be just blasting spells away.Personally.... I'd just wear heavy armor..Well, if you're not going to make any attack rolls anyway...
Well, that's the thing: the cleric is a very flexible class. They have the chassis available for lots of different possibilities.
You have 3/4 BAB, medium armor and access to buff spells, so with some work you could become a frontline combatant.
You have the same spell progression as a wizard, so with focus on that you could be an offensive caster (with the same resource management issues at low levels that a wizard can have, too).
You have access lots of buffs, healing, and condition removal, so you could focus on support.
And I haven't even gotten to variant channeling or domain powers yet!
Point is, the class has lots of capabilities that hint at lots of possibilities. However, that doesn't mean you're "meant" to use them all with any given cleric. In fact, the more of them you try to focus on at once, the harder it will be to actually be good at any of them.
Unless you really like to tinker around "under the hood", I suggest this:
Pick either melee, or casting. That's your primary focus.
If you pick melee, consider stats along these lines:
STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 08
WIS 14
CHA 10
If you do this, your first feat is Heavy Armor Proficiency. If you have Ultimate Campaign, one of your traits is Fate's Favored. Divine favor is your friend, at least once its bonus becomes +2. At some point you also take Power Attack. You only have 1 skill/level, unless you use your FCB for skills. You probably put it all into Diplomacy. You stay away from offensive, save-granting spells. You focus on things that don't care about your WIS score, like buffs, spontaneous cures, condition removal, and utility. Congratulations, you're a front-line combatant who can also socialize and solve problems with magic. Always useful! :)
If you choose casting, go for stats somewhere along these lines:
STR 08
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 18
CHA 14
Now you have solid save DCs for your spells, so you can cast offensively: command, hold person, etc. You basically play like a wizard but with a different spell list. Also, with your CHA you can channel for harming undead or emergency healing (consider feats like Selective Channel and Quick Channel). To mitigate your lack of resources at low levels, consider a domain with a 3+WIS/day ray attack or buff ability. Also, look carefully at domain spell lists; something like Fire could be nice for a casting cleric - who doesn't like a divine fireball? And you can still put ranks into Diplomacy (and/or Sense Motive) for when you need to do something besides fight.
Hope that helps!
This may be an option for you depending on your build. But if you want to go defensive and don't care about hitting enemies, you can wear heavy armor without heavy armor proficiency. The only penalty is that the armor check penalty of your armor applies to your attacks.
So feel free to walk around in full plate with a tower shield and have a -15 to hit -- so long as you weren't planning on attacking in combat anyway.
I do this with one of my oracles. I think my level 8 Flame oracle now has a -15 to hit with his spiked plate mail and tower shield. Honestly I never have made an attack roll so it doesn't matter. However, I do a lot of burning hands to the face.
as a lot of people have said, it depends on your concept/build... one thing i'm surprised no one has mentioned is race... thanks to racial weapon familiarity, some races gain more from a fighter dip than others- for example, your half-orc gains one extra exotic weapon proficiency from a fighter dip (because when you gain proficiency with martial weapons, that includes the orcish double-axe). that's not a game changer at all because you'll most likely never use it anyway, but (and, again, this all depends on how combat focused you want to be) if you're a dwarf you gain 3-4 good exotic weapon proficiencies (waraxe, double waraxe, longaxe, longhammer, urgosh) including 2 reach weapons (which are great for clerics), plus you ignore one of the big drawbacks of medium/heavy armor since they don't affect your movement.
My (Half-Orc) Cleric's abilities are (I might be a little off on one of these, but the overall bonuses are correct):
S:13, D:13, I:12, W:16, C:13, CH:14I planned on buying +1 Breast Plate. Shield of Faith is okay, giving additional +2 defense only for a minute or so (and advances +1 like every 6 levels).
The character's personality is one that is battle-hardened and he's not afraid to go into the front-lines, wielding a great axe, but he keeps a wary eye on this comrades to back-off and heal when necessary.
I look at the Full Plate option and eventually adding +1 would give me an extra +3 which might be helpful when my Cleric hits the front lines. I would also plan on taking a feat to add +1 to Armor Class (I forget off hand if/what that feat is).
I'm torn because of the already noted comments of letting the character keep gaining strength in spellcasting.
Well, as noted above, this probably isn't the spread of ability scores I would have chosen for melee. However, I'm going to dissent from other voices and say it's not a dealbreaker. In fact, taking a level of fighter could be a significant patch in your abilities. Not only would you gain heavy armor proficiency, but you could spend your feat on Weapon Focus (greataxe), which would patch your offense temporarily. From here on out, you'll be wanting to look at a balance of spells that buff your offense and defense, as well as traditional cleric support capabilities. If you go the fighter route, you are committing yourself to shield of faith, divine favor/power, and so forth. You will want to take your 4th level attribute increase in Strength to get you to 14 (+2), which will boost your greataxe damage by +2. For your open 3rd level feat choice, I'd say your contenders are Improved Initiative (always a good choice), Dodge, or Power Attack (sort of a long-term investment, since the math won't favor you much until you can buff your offense more).
Alternatively, as suggested, you can concentrate on casting. Using spells like prayer and bull's strength you can look at the part of the battle cleric while not having to rely on your own axe-wielding very much.
This may be an option for you depending on your build. But if you want to go defensive and don't care about hitting enemies, you can wear heavy armor without heavy armor proficiency. The only penalty is that the armor check penalty of your armor applies to your attacks.
So feel free to walk around in full plate with a tower shield and have a -15 to hit -- so long as you weren't planning on attacking in combat anyway.
I do this with one of my oracles. I think my level 8 Flame oracle now has a -15 to hit with his spiked plate mail and tower shield. Honestly I never have made an attack roll so it doesn't matter. However, I do a lot of burning hands to the face.
are you sure its only -15...
full plate -6tower shield -10
blackened curse -4
total= -20 (well, that guys not gonna use scorching ray, lol- though admittedly that'd only be -16)
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I'm only a 2nd level Cleric but I feel a bit low on the defensive side with only Medium Armor. I'd have to use a Feat just to take Heavy Armor. The major advantage of taking one level of Fighter is that I'd get the Heavy Armor for "free" plus another "free" feat. But, I also don't like the fact that if I take 1 level of Fighter, I'll never be able to play a 6th level spell in PFS regular play (since I'd get that at 11th level).
What do you guys think?
At second level, I'm surprised you can even afford heavy armor, let alone sinking a whole level into wearing it.
You have spells. Cast shield of faith now and then.
In 6 more levels, future you will thank past you for not taking a pointless detour.
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are you sure its only -15...
full plate -6
tower shield -10
blackened curse -4
total= -20 (well, that guys not gonna use scorching ray, lol- though admittedly that'd only be -16)
BAB +6 means he's at a net -14, not counting Str or any other bonuses. He also doesn't have to have the Blackened curse, since Flame oracles get burning hands.
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Also, something to remember for armor class...
Magic Vestment! +1 enhancement bonus to armor or shield per 4 levels...
Instead of enchanting your armor and shield to +2, you could invest in a lesser Rod of Extend Metamagic... at level 8, you'd get a +2 shield and +2 Breastplate for 16 hours! With your DEX of 12, that'd get you an AC of: 6+2 + 2+2 + 1 = AC23, and that doesn't even count any other bonuses. Add in an Amulet of Natural Armor +1, and the fact that you'll be casting Shield of Faith before entering combat (giving you +3 deflection bonus), and you are an AC27, with a Breastplate and Heavy Shield (-1 to that if you go with Light Shield or buckler). Not too shabby. Add in any number of other AC boosters, and you'll be at the 20+level many recommend!
The third use per day of your Extend Rod would have been be for Magic Weapon, Greater, but that's a 4th level spell.
For this build (if you still have the choice) I would go for Strength Domain, for sure, and then maybe Travel (hey, cleric of Cayden Cailean!!!) There is a subdomain which repaces Enlarge Person with Bless (which I find to be a better spell).
Later on, you'll be relying on spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might to beef up your melee attacks, if that's what you are looking to do. Early on, Divine Favor rocks.
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I'd go holy vindicator for a level or 2 personally, but still, if you are looking for HAP without waiting till like 7th level, I'd say go for more of an armoured hulk barbarian, as then with extra rage you can help with low strength. OR go for one of the really nice dip archetypes that fighters have (Unbreakable, is especially nice for half-orcs, since they have the deathless line of feats). OR as a bit of a different option, try Gun Tank (gunslinger) and have a decent ranged option (bit pricey though).
On full casters there aren't really feat chains you need to rush. I'd rather drop a feat on heavy armor (if I were you I mean, I personally dislike reducing my speed) than a level.
You get free heavy armour, free tower shields, extra hp on the hit die, free martial weapons and an extra feat. The bonuses are excellent.
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Well, I'm pretty sure I'll do the Fighter dip. I'm one more PFS play away from levelling up. I think the free heavy armor feat, 1 free combat trait which I'll take Dodge, and extra couple of points towards Fortify save would be very helpful for a character that wants to get into the middle of battle and not just stand back.
The key here is to take advantage of every possible defence I can get to get my AC as high as possible because I can't take quite the clubbing that a full Fighter can take.
Right now, he has +1 Breastplate (no shield due to 2-handed weapon, great axe...from half-orc benefit) so AC=18 with dex. With heavy armor, I plan on getting into Full Plate...AC=21 (including Dodge). I'll buy an amulet of natural armor +1 so AC=22. When I get to Cleric Lvl 5, I can cast Magic Vestment, so I won't have to buy the +1 on the Plate. I can cast Shield of Faith or Prot from Evil to temporarily bring AC to 24. With Magic Vestment I'll get up to 25.
He'll have okay BAB, not as strong as full fighter but can still assist in a fight. The only thing he'll really be short on, like most characters is a decent Reflex save.