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All credit for this runaway train of thought goes to Rysky:
When Dispater fell from Heaven, he was said to be holding onto another, most likely his first wife. As far as we know so far, she did not land in Hell with her hustband, if she went there at all.
Dispater's current status: He can no longer remember the name and face of his first wife. He remembers her, but not the identifying details. These have somehow been struck from his memory, possibly by the fall, possibly by Asmodeus or Hell itself, or something else entirely. Of note, while Dispater is still horrifyingly evil, he's also the most lawful-over-evil leaning of the archdevils; he's the one with the most obvious redeeming traits. It's entirely possible that these traits are part of what carried over to his son Ragathiel and led to his rebellion and later ascension to Heaven.
Dispater is known as the Iron Lord.
Vildeis, almost immediately upon being born from the heavens, was so horrified by the existence of evil that she blinded herself and embraced an eternal martyrdom, bearing the weight of the multiverse's sins and suffering. The exact moment she started down this path was when the dagger Cicatrix mysteriously found its way into her hand.
Cicatrix is described as looking like a thorn dropped from a gigantic iron rose.
I had always assumed the description of Cicatrix was hinting at Dou-Bral related origins, but Rysky put some different clues together and wound up at an entirely unexpected "Holy Hell, maybe literally" conclusion:
What if Vildeis is Dispater's first wife?
Possibly reincarnated by Heaven itself in the hopes of giving her a clean slate, but her old guilt still found her and now she's bearing that weight. Or maybe she was entirely blameless period, and it was her beloved Dispater's sins that were the catalyst for her change? What if Cicatrix is the manifestation of Dispater's guilt, or severed conscience?
Consider Cicatrix's destruction clause:
"DESTRUCTION Cicatrix is destroyed if an evil outsider of CR 20 or higher uses the blade to sacrifice itself to save a good outsider's life".
That's the kind of destruction clause you'd usually see on an evil artifact. But Cicatrix is not evil itself...
Could that be a glimpse at Dispater's and Vildeis' future? With Dispater finally recognizing Vildeis for who she is? And Vildeis finally being freed from her burden by her lost husband's sacrifice?
And how does Ragathiel play into this drama?
Alternate idea, if Vildeis is not Dispater's wife herself, perhaps she is their daughter, born from the Heaven that absorbed her mother's essense as she died during Dispater's fall. That changes up the meaning of Cicatrix finding its way to her somewhat, and changes up the dynamics of how its destruction could play out as well.
Really falling in love with the core idea here, because there's so much poetry waiting to happen here. Two lovers, both separated and confined in their own hells, and the only ones who can free them are each other...
O_O Holy crap...That. Is. Awesome. I need some time to think about this, but the theory sounds solid. I want it to be true so badly...
I'd make that canon if I were a member of Paizo Staff...
That's a very interesting idea. I like it a lot :)
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Why isn't Mikaze in Florida? I'd feel like we'd drink and make crazy awesome ideas.
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Why isn't Mikaze in Florida? I'd feel like we'd drink and make crazy awesome ideas.
That's exactly why he isn't... The world might not survive that amount of sheer insa... er, awesomness! :P
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Bah, you people and your hatred of heat!
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Sand's nice though.
Ever since this notion was proposed, I keep imagining Dispater possibly developing into a Sargantanas-like* figure. But very reluctantly so.
Alternately, I could see Dispater trying to find a way around it once his fate became clear, trying to beat the odds and take a third option until all of his options ran out, leaving him railing against fate, the multiverse, and himself. And then ultimately making the sacrifice after being whittled down to the core of his damaged being.
Bonus points if his own estranged son is tearfully begging him not to do it by the end.
*Man, if one is looking for some powerful, terrifying imagery for Hell, God's Demon and the related art books have it in spades.
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I... uh... well, you see... um...
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Sand's nice though.
Ever since this notion was proposed, I keep imagining Dispater possibly developing into a Sargantanas-like* figure. But very reluctantly so.
Alternately, I could see Dispater trying to find a way around it once his fate became clear, trying to beat the odds and take a third option until all of his options ran out, leaving him railing against fate, the multiverse, and himself. And then ultimately making the sacrifice after being whittled down to the core of his damaged being.
Bonus points if his own estranged son is tearfully begging him not to do it by the end.
*Man, if one is looking for some powerful, terrifying imagery for Hell, God's Demon and the related art books have it in spades.
Reminds me of Hieronymus Bosch and Salvador Dali's work mixed with bad acid.
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What if Vildeis is Dispater's first wife?
While I didn't get that from Bestiary 4 (my interests in Videlis were elsewhere), it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case. Ever since Fires of Dis way back in Planescape, Dispater's been a bit of ensemble darkhorse lore-wise.
Dot-heart.
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the combined awesomeness of Mikaze and Rysky
I'll need some time to digest this, but the general idea sounds awesome.
Makamu
Dot for great interest.
Yeah...going to repeat what other said...that is an awesome angle...
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Reminds me of Hieronymus Bosch and Salvador Dali's work mixed with bad acid.
Pretty much. Also, looks like the Ryskian Heresy is a hit. :)
Ever since Fires of Dis way back in Planescape, Dispater's been a bit of ensemble darkhorse lore-wise.
Yeah, he's long seemed the most sympathetic, relatable, and approachable of the archdevils.
Which is kinda insidious in its own way, really. ;)
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Reminds me of Hieronymus Bosch and Salvador Dali's work mixed with bad acid.Pretty much. Also, looks like the Ryskian Heresy is a hit. :)
Ever since Fires of Dis way back in Planescape, Dispater's been a bit of ensemble darkhorse lore-wise.Yeah, he's long seemed the most sympathetic, relatable, and approachable of the archdevils.
Which is kinda insidious in its own way, really. ;)
I am SO stealing that! :3
That theory is awesome! I must say, it certainly makes sense. It would make for a very poignant side story in a campaign, but then again, I'm the sort of person who actually uses those April Fool's Day monsters in campaigns, so my personal tastes are somewhat abnormal. Anyone want a TPK by Gummy Bears? My PCs sure didn't!
I think Paizo seeds these vague connections on purpose. It's almost like my theory on DOUBRAL POSSESSED BY THE FIRST DAEMON!!! Read up on the Song of Extinction, Abaddon's history, and Zon-Kuthon/Doubral's backstory and if you can't quite put together the theory I have, I will explain.
Back from that slight threadjack, Dispater has always been one of my favorite evil characters in D&D/Pathfinder. I think this thread made him my NUMBER ONE favorite character now!
It also gives me an idea for a campaign my home group to play in, a campaign where the PCs are all devils, fallen angels, and condemned souls serving in Dispater's court! Now just to keep them out of this thread, so they don't see the plot twist!
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There are a few people whose posts on paizo.com are reliably entertaining. Mikaze tops the list.
This is a really cool idea I wanted to say.
Some interesting ideas here! :)
Dispater has always been an interesting character. Particularly if one goes back to his real world roots. Dispater is actually Dis Pater in Latin, or Father Dis, and can be interpreted as the Roman version of the Greek Hades. Both Dis and Hades bear the same name as their realms.
I wonder if any (near-)deity will play the part of Persephone, not to mention her mother Demeter.
By the way, according to Princes of Darkness (Book of the Damned I), Dis' first wife was the unknown fallen angel, his second was the fire goddess Feronia (mother of Ragathiel), and his current third is the once-mortal seeress Erecura.
Why isn't Mikaze in Florida? I'd feel like we'd drink and make crazy awesome ideas.
Because Florida is awful and one day I'll escape it permanently myself :/
Or at least, you know, get the mess outta the Redneck Riviera D:
This is awesome. Reminds me of the Charmed T.V. series.
Odraude, if only you were in Ocala aka "the place where gaming goes to die", I'd be happy. Mikaze, you too. Or Tels. Or Orthos. Or, like, thirty other people on these forums. DANG IT guys, move to Ocala!
:)
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Dispater has been, since 2d Ed days, one of the most interesting archdevils. Curiously enough, I was just reading his blurb in Princes of Darkness yesterday. Nice theory! I always figured Ragathiel's metaplot would be an eventual lapse, rather than his father's redemption--it almost seems inevitable that his wrath would get out of hand eventually. I think Dispater's most interesting characteristic is his obsession with personal security and invincibility. This backstory involving his one weakness that is so secret that even he himself can't remember it just makes it even more awesome.
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I don't know, I don't think Vildeis would be his ex wife per se but I could see her playing a part in it. Honestly I think that Dispater's wife isn't Vildeis but rather the person who put the blade in her hand. As we know she didn't forge the blade but rather felt it in her hand after her creation. Hell Vildeis could be the freakin' response of heaven after the first devils fell to the pit, a creature created so that it was so disgusted by evil that it would never fall and might seek to purge the multiverse of a taint that was so vile that it could cause such powerful forces of good to fall.
Ohh or better yet, what if Dispater had more children then just Ragathiel and Vildeis' origins are a bit more sordid then we know?
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@Tarondor, Wow, thanks! But please note, this theory is Rysky's baby! :)
@Tacticslion, seriously, with multiple Floridians inviting multple posters over in this thread, I'm starting to get suspicious about the motives. I've seen the original Wicker Man you know! ;)
I think Dispater's most interesting characteristic is his obsession with personal security and invincibility. This backstory involving his one weakness that is so secret that even he himself can't remember it just makes it even more awesome.
Hadn't even considered that take. Kind of the ultimate end result of selling one's soul fro security.
Good point on the issue of Ragathiel's wrath being a real danger to himself. Perhaps this plotline might have his fall or affirmation of his redemptino hanging in the balance. Man, I'm liking the sound of that now: Either the family is reunited or finally and irrevocably torn apart by all this.
*Because rediscovering the truth and having your heart reawakened will do that, along with stabbing it with Cicatrix.
**and mourned
***That Great Work being all the defenses and barriers he's built up to protect himself from his singular weakness, and all the horrible crap that has come from it.
@Tacticslion, seriously, with multiple Floridians inviting multple posters over in this thread, I'm starting to get suspicious about the motives. I've seen the original Wicker Man you know! ;)
I, uh... I haven't.
But mostly I just want a gaming group down here (and it's even more awesome if it's a gaming group of demonstrably awesome people).
(I've "nearly" started five or six gaming groups that all fall apart due to others' schedule changes, and no one seems to play here, though they sell books at B&N, so it seems someone buys the stuff other than me...)
I may be a bit disappointed by Vildeis... but... still love her. and this is BRILLIANT AND I HOPE IT'S CANON.
And if it's not, it will be for me.
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So to answer your question; because I don't like the heat :3
only winter!
AWESOME THREAD!!!!!
First: Awesome thread.
Second: Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the main point is true, and that Dispater did off himself with Cicatrix. What would that do to Vildeis and/or Ragathiel? Would they continue as they are, or would they perhaps switch their shticks? They are both very active in fighting evil, but their methods and their motives are quite different. Finding her love only to lose him again could conceivably enrage Vildeis that much, and losing his father after seeing him redeemed could make Ragathiel rethink his perspective on offing evil beings as the only recourse.
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First: Awesome thread.
Second: Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the main point is true, and that Dispater did off himself with Cicatrix. What would that do to Vildeis and/or Ragathiel? Would they continue as they are, or would they perhaps switch their shticks? They are both very active in fighting evil, but their methods and their motives are quite different. Finding her love only to lose him again could conceivably enrage Vildeis that much, and losing his father after seeing him redeemed could make Ragathiel rethink his perspective on offing evil beings as the only recourse.
RagathielxSaranrae
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Heh.
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@Tacticslion, seriously, with multiple Floridians inviting multple posters over in this thread, I'm starting to get suspicious about the motives. I've seen the original Wicker Man you know! ;)I, uh... I haven't.
As long as human sacrifice via wicker man(or even OH GOD NOT THE BEES RARARARAUGH) isn't involved, we're good. :)
But mostly I just want a gaming group down here (and it's even more awesome if it's a gaming group of demonstrably awesome people).
(I've "nearly" started five or six gaming groups that all fall apart due to others' schedule changes, and no one seems to play here, though they sell books at B&N, so it seems someone buys the stuff other than me...)
:( Hang in there man. Have you tried the online/Skype circuit?
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First: Awesome thread.
Second: Suppose, for the sake of argument, that the main point is true, and that Dispater did off himself with Cicatrix. What would that do to Vildeis and/or Ragathiel? Would they continue as they are, or would they perhaps switch their shticks? They are both very active in fighting evil, but their methods and their motives are quite different. Finding her love only to lose him again could conceivably enrage Vildeis that much, and losing his father after seeing him redeemed could make Ragathiel rethink his perspective on offing evil beings as the only recourse.
It would certainly lend some more tragedy even to Dispater's potential GOOD END. I kinda prefer an all-or-nothing outcome since hardening Vildeis' heart would undermine Dispater's sacrifice, but an unexpected reconcilation with Ragathiel and the potential drama between him and Vildeis as they move in different directions might be fun to play with, whether there's support or resentment between them.
And then there'd be the matter of the power vacuum in Dis...
As long as human sacrifice via wicker man(or even OH GOD NOT THE BEES RARARARAUGH) isn't involved, we're good. :)@Tacticslion, seriously, with multiple Floridians inviting multple posters over in this thread, I'm starting to get suspicious about the motives. I've seen the original Wicker Man you know! ;)I, uh... I haven't.
No, no, no, no, no. We don't sacrifice humans via the Wickerman, or bees!
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... nope, not by either of those methods!
EDIT: slight word-choice change
:( Hang in there man. Have you tried the online/Skype circuit?But mostly I just want a gaming group down here (and it's even more awesome if it's a gaming group of demonstrably awesome people).
(I've "nearly" started five or six gaming groups that all fall apart due to others' schedule changes, and no one seems to play here, though they sell books at B&N, so it seems someone buys the stuff other than me...)
Thanks. We're working on it. I love the single-player games that my wife and I run, but I also miss the dynamic of multiple players too. It doesn't actually help that I'm a stay-at-home and don't really see "adults"... ever.
(I am getting my next-door-neighbor into "anime" though. I, uh... I started with Avatar: The Last Airbender. Hey! Don't judge! I moved her on to Miyazaki with Castle in the Sky! I've got to take things slowly here...)
EDIT: because ended too soon