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Ok, so please let me give the rundown to help understand where I am coming from here-
Like many, I started to game in my mid-teens with AD&D second edition. This was great for years until I thought I became "too old to be playing this stuff" (Yeah, I was like 19 lol). So, when I was about 24, I got back into gaming with D&D 3.5. Now, this system was doing really well for our group for about 10-11 years. That is until I found out about Star Wars Edge of the Empire (EotE).
Now, what finding and playing EotE did for me was really open up my eyes to the fact that there is much more out there, its not just D&D!!! Now, before I get flamed on a PF site about playing EotE, please still just stay with me and I'll get to my point. So, not only did it open my eyes to the fact that D&D isn't the only RPG out there, that system made me realize that 3.5 had been bogging down my games for years with all of the "Ok, I want to pick my nose", "Well, there is a rule for that and now we have to look up all of the modifiers". And besides that, what I finally came to a realization about is that 3.5 really seems like a table top strategy war game with a touch of Roleplaying. I only make this statement because of how long and drawn out combats can really be. Not to mention that most combat really plays out that way among the players with trying to figure out what the next move would be during everyone else's turns. This drove us nuts for years but again, D&D was the only thing we knew.
So, on to the main point of all of this. The idea of Pathfinder has really been rolling through my mind for some time now. I use to listen to the Pathfinder Chronicles Podcast for quite a few episodes. I never played PF but I thought it was a well put together show. And what I really enjoyed was there discussions about these "adventure paths". It always sounded like such a cool concept to me and now I find myself on this site looking at them and am really thinking about getting into Pathfinder.
But, this is where I reach out to the PF community. I'm trying to figure out if PF is for me. I have heard great things about how much it streamlined 3.5. So I ask- Knowing my gripes about 3.5 that I have stated above (I do have more but this is long enough as it is. The couple I put above are just the biggest gripes I have), is Pathfinder for me?
So, as much as it seems like I just got on here to bash 3.5, please don't take it that way. I just want to throw what my issues were with the system and want advice from the players about a game that I have heard has been greatly redone before I go and drop the money. Thank you all so much for hearing (well, reading) me out! Thanks
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Probably not, honestly. PF fixed some things and really screwed up some others from 3.5, and how much of one or the other is personal opinion only.
But, from your complaints, PF will not really be any different. Might even be worse, realiatically, as PF tends to be a bit sparce with errata and rules fixes in comparrison, and has a noted issue with contradiction, incomplete or hard to find rules, and ruling the exact opposite on things that 3.5 did, but less explaining.
Now, dont get me wrong, its not terrible, but based on what you said, it may not be what you want. On the other had, you can check out the PRD for free online, (posting from phone or Id link it. Google search PF PRD, or SRD), or the pdfs ars fairly cheap, $10 US.
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I started to feel the same way about 3.5 and the rules bloat with that game by the end was kind of absurd. Pathfinder streamlines a lot of what made 3.5 eventually unappealing to me. It is still a rules-heavy game and may not be for you because of that reason.
I play a lot of other games, especially World of Darkness, which is a super streamlined and rules light game I recommend to anyone. I play a lot of Pathfinder too and I recommend giving it a try for a little while. All of the rules can be found for free online thanks to the advent of open content but I suggest, when trying out the game, to stick to material presented in the Core Rulebook. There isn't a lot of rules bloat but the CRB will be the most familiar to you as a veteran of 3.5 though don't assume everything is the same as it was because Pathfinder is its own game and things are not always the same.
So I say try it out and see what the hype is all about before you dive into something like the adventure paths, which while absolutely amazing products (I subscribe to them and don't have a lot of money to drop on gaming products if that shows my faith in the product) but can become pricey for an entire path.
EDIT:
I forgot to add the links for OGC.
paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd
www.d20pfsrd.com
The first is the official resource and the second has all the 3rd party material as well.
Ok question about the adventure paths- Is each adventure path a stand alone campaign or so they all work together? In other words, can I play through a whole adventure path and feel that a character is complete and then start a new character for the next adventure path? I ask because I wonder if this is a route I go if I "have" to start with "rise of the runelords" or can I just start a character and pick up any adventure path. Thanks
Yes, each AP is self-contained.
Some of them do reference back to the ones that came before. There's a small reference in Council of Thieves to Curse of the Crimson Throne, Jade Regent picks up an NPC from Rise of the Runelords as a major character.
Shattered Star is a "sequel" to Rise of the Runelords, CotCT, Jade Regent, and Second Darkness, and is really the only one that contains "spoilers" to prior paths, but it also doesn't require a character from one of the prior ones (though if you want to, or have a descendent/relative/student of a prior character from one of those APs, that does work well).
But yes, each AP is one story. They always start at 1st level and typically take characters to around 16-18 before ending. The lowest I think is Council of Thieves which tops out around level 15 I believe. Only Wrath of the Righteous is intended to go all the way to 20.
Awesome, thanks for the info!
Pathfinder has not streamlined 3.5 in any meaningful way (IMO).
It's the same game, with a bunch of little rules differences, some good, some bad.
I'm with you, I think that Pathfinder has a lot of conservative rules in it that force you to look things up, pore over tomes, and just generally use rules to do frikkan anything. But that's what Pathfinder's good at. Sometimes you just want that kind of game.
I do not use Pathfinder when I want a character-driven, story-first, deep roleplaying experience. I use it when I want high adventure, where sometimes ignominious death is a factor, and the world works by the strange rules of old-school fantasy gaming logic.
In short, I play Pathfinder for Pathfinder's sake. A particular brand of crunchy tactical wargame and nostalgia-factory setting.
If I want deep role-play and a rules light system, it's fate or fudge. If I want high-crunch, high-roleplay, it's burning wheel.
There are no doubt many brilliant games I don't even know about.
Not all game systems play well with Adventure Paths, but chances are if written adventure modules exist for the system you're using, you can run an AP with some conversion. Do not make the mistake I did and try to convert an AP to Burning Wheel. :)
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The Player Guides to the Adventure Paths are free to download and are great for getting a feel of the AP AND creating a character that will fit well with the story being told (except maybe the 2nd Darkness PG).
Also each AP has a forum dedicated to it and full of SPOILERS as well as good advice for the GM ;-)
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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You are all forgetting that the rules are rally a guideline, at the least the rules that bog down combat and roleplay. In the end the books are meant to be he guideline, not necessarily the end all be all. The most important thing is the GM and how he/she apply the rules. From what you are saying I think it is less the rules bothering you than the players and GM you are playng with or were playing with. Dont play with rules lawyers, find a GM who is excellent at impromptu decision making and play! Rules are meant to answer questions however they often stop play. Dont let them stop play. Make a decision right at the moment and then look the rule up later and apply it to future gaming sessions or keep the decision that was made as the rule.
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Different rulesets work better for different games, no offense to Monte but trying to stick the d20 rukes onto Vamoire was just yuck, ditto to Decipher and Green Ronin for Star Trek and Mutants & Masterminds.
PF is, imo, the best system for the games it wants to do. That blend of KODT nostalgic hackmaster but with solid storytelling and a less adversarial role between player and GM than old school had.
It's still D&D, so you'll surely enjoy it.
Yes, it fixed some issues with multi-classing and overpowered characters in 3.5; but for my money the pendulum swung too far back in the other direction so now it *penalizes* multi-classing.
But in the end, that's not why we play the game. If the only goal was being OP, we'd all be off playing WoW. We play the game to have fun with friends and come up with unique and innovative ways to handle problems that no video game will ever be able to approximate.
The adventure path system is very strong; the campaigns are detailed and quite enjoyable. My suggestion is round up 3-4 friends and play Rise of the Rune Lords. If you find anything missing from 3.5, bring it in as a houserule since the game is reverse compatible.
If you put in your effort as a DM, and they put it in as players, I guarantee you'll all be well rewarded for your trouble.
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My suggestion is round up 3-4 friends and play Rise of the Rune Lords.
I always forget about Rise of the Runelords (sad because I own the damn thing). The price tag on the Anniversary Edition is damn reasonable and well worth it. You get a solid campaign that has become a classic, and for good reason.
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You are all forgetting that the rules are really a guideline, at the least the rules that bog down combat and roleplay. In the end the books are meant to be he guideline, not necessarily the end all be all. The most important thing is the GM and how he/she apply the rules. From what you are saying I think it is less the rules bothering you than the players and GM you are playng with or were playing with. Dont play with rules lawyers, find a GM who is excellent at impromptu decision making and play! Rules are meant to answer questions however they often stop play. Dont let them stop play. Make a decision right at the moment and then look the rule up later and apply it to future gaming sessions or keep the decision that was made as the rule.
I'd argue that the rules are there so that everyone knows what they and can not due, and that they are not just guidelines except to make an educated decision when the rules do not cover something, or a new mechanic needs to be created o the spot. There are plenty of Lite games out there, and if that's what you want (nothing wrong with that), look to them, but that's not 3E/PF, (though you could certainly play that way if you want and not be wrong. Or look at the Beginner Box. But having the rules just be guidelines leads to favoritism and inconsistency, which is just as bad, or worse than rules lawyering.
(All IMO and IME!)
PF improves on Combat Maneuvers markedly over 3.5e
PF improves skills and 'skill-purchasing' markedly over 3.5e
PF has improved on monster statblock & organization
Unfortunately, the same problems that bog 3.x after about 12th level remain. That level of play can be very complex to run.
And here's where PF made things worse IME: too many feats (every 2nd instead of every 3rd level), too many added powers for all classes. By ~12th most PC classes are running so many 'special power subsystems' (rage powers, rogue talents, bloodline powers, arcane school powers, etc.) that there are no 'simple classes' for casual gamers or laymen or newbs.
We're hitting long combats now due to all the buffing/stacking/tracking and so on.
PF is a great game, but I'd love to see a lighter take on PF for all-levels (i.e. not just the Beginner Box).
He might mean more that PF's CMB/CMD mechanic streamlined the way Combat Maneuvers work, so we don't have incidents of stopping the game for an hour to look up how Grapple rules work and similar situations.
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I like Pathfinder for the sheer amount of options (and I think Archetypes are the greatest thing since chocolate) but those same options also get you in trouble with rules bloat. I felt the same way about 3.5E getting in the way of my game, and after finally being able to run an extended Pathfinder game... It seems to do the same thing which is sad because I love Paizo.
However that being said the Adventure Paths and modules that Paizo releases are high quality stories and pure gold imo. I have used them out of Pathfinder before in different settings/systems and it worked out well.
Skull & Shackles (or Savage Tides) in Space? Yes, please.
Council of Thieves in a Gotham-esque superhero origins game? Sure
Rise of the Runelords (or Age of Worms) in World of Darkness? Isn't it always about some big bad mofo from the ancient past rising up to bring ruin to the world (or status quo), yep.
Best way to do all the conversions is being familiar with the entire Adventure Path as best as you can be (including all the helpful additions from these boards) and having some mastery of the system you are converting too.
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Or... the Carrion Crown in Transylvania and the Whispering Tyrant being Lord Dracula... and the protagonist being part of the Belmont Clan? Done lol
He might mean more that PF's CMB/CMD mechanic streamlined the way Combat Maneuvers work, so we don't have incidents of stopping the game for an hour to look up how Grapple rules work and similar situations.
This ;)
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He might mean more that PF's CMB/CMD mechanic streamlined the way Combat Maneuvers work, so we don't have incidents of stopping the game for an hour to look up how Grapple rules work and similar situations.
I know, why do that when you can spend 2 hours doing it in PF.
Hence the complaints.
:)
He might mean more that PF's CMB/CMD mechanic streamlined the way Combat Maneuvers work, so we don't have incidents of stopping the game for an hour to look up how Grapple rules work and similar situations.I know, why do that when you can spend 2 hours doing it in PF.
Hence the complaints.
:)
** spoiler omitted **
Not my experience, from a decade of 3.x + PF as DM/player. CMB/CMD system easier for us to run- which is not a comment on more/less powerful for PCs. But yes there are some cut/paste inconsistencies.