Produce Flame Spell & Atacks


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

In my last game I had an enemy cast Produce Flame through a wand & he used it as a ranged attack in the same round. A player said that the enemy can't use the wand & attack with it in the same round. I didn't think this was true but I want to be sure. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I think that this enemy can't cast Produce Flame and make a ranged attack in the same round, but not because he cast Produce Flame from a wand.

Touch Spells in Combat says "Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action."

This rule quoted above is what you were likely thinking of. A combatant will cast something like Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp and gets to make a free action melee touch attack as part of the casting.

In your case, your enemy is not making a melee touch attack, he's attempting a thrown weapon attack. As such, you don't get the free attack mentioned above. Even if you had been doing the melee touch attack instead, Produce Flame is technically ineligible for this free attack because it is NOT a Range: touch spell. It has a range of 0 feet.


I think its fine, most spells include the range attack or the touch attack as a free action part of the casting. With produce flame its probably ok to assume the same you just get the choice.


SlimGauge wrote:

I think that this enemy can't cast Produce Flame and make a ranged attack in the same round, but not because he cast Produce Flame from a wand.

Touch Spells in Combat says "Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action."

This rule quoted above is what you were likely thinking of. A combatant will cast something like Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp and gets to make a free action melee touch attack as part of the casting.

In your case, your enemy is not making a melee touch attack, he's attempting a thrown weapon attack. As such, you don't get the free attack mentioned above. Even if you had been doing the melee touch attack instead, Produce Flame is technically ineligible for this free attack because it is NOT a Range: touch spell. It has a range of 0 feet.

You get to cast and range attack with ray of frost, scorching ray, snowball(think thats what its called). Again I'm not sure if I'm correct but it seems there is a president for this and it should be ok to cast and throw.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Ashe wrote:
You get to cast and range attack with ray of frost, scorching ray, snowball(think thats what its called). Again I'm not sure if I'm correct but it seems there is a president for this and it should be ok to cast and throw.

That's because Ray of Frost lists "Effect: Ray", as does Scorching Ray. They fall under the rules section "Ranged Touch Spells in Combat" wich says "Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action."

Snowball has a duration of instantaneous and lacks the phrase "hurl ... as a throw weapon" that Produce Flame has.

Dark Archive

In the link Slimgauge had it says under the heading "Ranged Touch Spells in Combat" that you can make a ranged touch attack as part of the spell & does not require a separate action. Doesn't that mean I was doing it right?

Verdant Wheel

My druid use Produce Flame so often that he calls it his main attack. But i don't use it the round i cast, i treat casting more like he would be drawing a weapon (often i walk around with it casted anyway because of the illumination effect). If it could attack in the casting round, it would be great.

Dark Archive

Oh, I see. Both arguments make sense.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
BeefSupreme wrote:
In the link Slimgauge had it says under the heading "Ranged Touch Spells in Combat" that you can make a ranged touch attack as part of the spell & does not require a separate action. Doesn't that mean I was doing it right?

It depends on how you interpret Produce Flame. Imagine a spell that conjures or evokes a dagger of <element> in your palm that you can fight with in melee or that immediately reappears in your hand after being thrown. Except for going against regular AC and not touch AC, this is how I see Produce Flame working. It doesn't produce an immediate ray (or snowball), it produces a weapon-like effect with a duration.


Wand or not has nothing to do with the question so long as the NPC had the wand in hand on the turn he cast the spell (i.e. he didn't have to retrieve it on the turn he cast). Using the wand to cast the spell uses the same action as casting the spell from a spell slot, a standard action.

So the question is really, does casting Produce Flame provide a free touch/ranged touch attack as part of the act of casting. It seems a little unclear to me.

Since Produce Flame doesn't have a range of touch (but rather 0ft) I believe that it doesn't provide a free touch attack with it's casting.

In any event I see three possibilities:
1) Casting Produce Flame provides no free attack as part of casting
2) Casting Produce Flame provides a free melee touch attack as part of casting
3) Casting Produce Flame provides a free melee or ranged touch attack as part of casting

As for Scorching Ray or Ray of Frost allowing a free attack, I believe its because they're Ray Spells specifically and their mechanics seems to imply that you attack as part of the casting. However, produce flame doesn't imply this to me.

Dark Archive

After reading the spell closer I think I agree with Slimgauge. I will bring this up to the group at the next game. Thank you all. This helped a lot.


Ashe wrote:

You get to cast and range attack with ray of frost, scorching ray, snowball(think thats what its called). Again I'm not sure if I'm correct but it seems there is a president for this and it should be ok to cast and throw.

You can cast Shocking Grasp, Produce Flame, ect, before combat starts and then make attacks with them later. The spell 'puts it in your hand' and then you make attacks.

With something like Ray of Frost, the attack IS the spell.

Produce Flame is more in line with Call Lightning in this regard.

Call Lightning specifically calls out that you can use one of the 'charges' immediately.

I'm pretty sure that Produce Flame does not give an instant attack, and this is as a Druid who uses it.


Yeah this one is a feeling call, I could see it going either way, but I agree it probably should be cast with not touch, or throw in the round.

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