The Undiscovered Races (or...OMG is this stuff legal!)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Okay, so after readying the Bestiary 4, I recently came to discover that all of the potential PC characters (or, in other words, races with no hit dice or level adjustment) are all also listed in the Advanced Race Guide (examples include Trox, Wyrwood, etc). Now, this sorta makes me believe that other races listed in the Advanced Race Guide are all also capable of being used as PCs as well (races such as Centuar and Drider).

Now, if such is the case then...well...that's utterly ridiculous (lol).

However, I would like to hear everyone's thoughts about this (what races do you like, which do you think are broken, etc). Below is a list I've compiled that essentially names off a bunch of races that most people probably didn't realize were usable as PCs.

Centaur
Trox
Gnoll
Lizardfolk
Drider
Gargoyle
Ogre
Gathlain
Kasatha
Wyrwood
Wyvaran

I'm sure there are other ones that can be added to this list as well, but this pretty much covers the ones I've found thus far. If anyone would like to add other races to this list, please feel free to do so.

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Duskblade wrote:

Okay, so after readying the Bestiary 4, I recently came to discover that all of the potential PC characters (or, in other words, races with no hit dice or level adjustment) are all also listed in the Advanced Race Guide (examples include Trox, Wyrwood, etc). Now, this sorta makes me believe that other races listed in the Advanced Race Guide are all also capable of being used as PCs as well (races such as Centuar and Drider).

Now, if such is the case then...well...that's utterly ridiculous (lol).

However, I would like to hear everyone's thoughts about this (what races do you like, which do you think are broken, etc). Below is a list I've compiled that essentially names off a bunch of races that most people probably didn't realize were usable as PCs.

Centaur
Trox
Gnoll
Lizardfolk
Drider
Gargoyle
Ogre
Gathlain
Kasatha
Wyrwood
Wyvaran

I'm sure there are other ones that can be added to this list as well, but this pretty much covers the ones I've found thus far. If anyone would like to add other races to this list, please feel free to do so.

Don't forget Monkey Goblin! And Triaxian! And Android!!

Some of these races are extremely overpowered as PC races, obviously (Centaur, Drider, Ogre, etc.)

I also wouldn't allow Kasatha without a super good reason, only because they have four arms and the rules on a player character having four arms are VERY dodgy.

The Gathlain are fey that have a natural fly speed, so I might require the PC to "learn" to use their wings during the first few levels, since the unwritten rule is to not give a PC the ability to fly until 4th-5th level.

I absolutely love the Ghoran only because they're PLANTS! A plant PC is just awesome, but they're still probably a bit OP for a party full of humans and elves.

Both Wyrwoods and Androids are constructs, though Androids are LIVING constructs so they're treated more like humanoids most of the time. Both would be super fun to RP.


Anything your GM allows is legal. They just wanted to give those 4 races some flavor to back up the stats, since they were originally just examples.

Dark Archive

I think you need to remember that just because something has no racial hit dice does not mean it is suitable as a player race alongside the standard races of the core rulebook. Likewise, any race that does have racial hitdice is like having levels built into the race and again not suitable alongside the standard races. At least not without adjustment. For example,.a.centaure out of the monster manual was considered the equivalent of a 7 or 8 level character. That meant you could play a centaur or a level 7/8 class pc. It is outright foolish to think that races with so many builder points or whatever ARG calls it would be.equal, not flat out better than the standard races built arould 10 points. Same goes for races with racial hit dice.

Lantern Lodge

Technicly speaking creating a unique race of your own is perfectly legal, assuming you have a GM who allows it. So yeah, all those races are legal, but like it suggests in the race guide some of them are OP and CR should be adjusted accordingly, or alternatively adjusting the level of anyone who takes a custom race down compared to the normal rest of the party.


I quite like the centaur.

It is not even so hard to make their score lower , just take away all the extra +2 they get , and done.


Freaking LOVE Androids!


PFSRD wrote:
here are a number of monsters that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.

I would also say that some are so strong as to require more than a single level adjust.


PFS-legal? HELL NO. But this does give some nice options for monstrous parties.


Some of the races meeting or encroaching 20 Race Points are extremely powerful but some don't seem that obscene.

Centaur, Gargoyles, Ogres, and Driders are obviously over the top and any race that naturally flies is up to the DM to nerf in game, but Things like Kasathas only get to 20 RP due to their multiple arms which aren't all that supported in the rules making it a fairly expensive trait for not THAT much benefit. In the example from Bestiary 4, It doesn't get 4 attacks with flurry of blows so I'm sure it actually needs to blow some monster feats just to make use out of the extra arms aside from holding things.

Trox can make the most savage martials ever but they suffer the same problems a lot of people have with fighters in not being able to do much else making them just as useless as they are useful.

Wyrwoods have a ton of immunities due to being constructs, which is where they get All their race points but honestly that comes with it's own problems, like dying at 0hp and not being able to be resurrected. I have my doubts about playing full constructs due to the amount of times in games where I'll go to 0hp.

Androids just don't seem very OP to me. Resistances are great but I generally throw different kinds of dangers at players so its not that good.

Ghorans seem to get most of their race points from being able to pre-emptively regrowing themselves but this way they functionally lose their gear unless they're just waiting around for a week and the end result doesn't make much of a difference to me as a DM so it's not worth 6 rp.


I see that no one is complaining about the lizardfolk. Fair enough, since their main advantages (natural armor, 3 natural attacks)
could be obtained by a 2nd level alchemist without too much trouble. After that, they just have bonuses to 2 physical scores and no stat negatives as well as a swim speed. Fairly boring, but I like the way Paizo treated them in the bestiary (nice, postcolonial perspective)

Plus, I first found out they were a playable race through a thread talking about a lizardfolk southern gentleman. My imagination went wild with that.


Anything in the race builder section that hasn't appeared in other sources should be considered an example, not a new default. Ogres and centaurs are still non-0HD races, since that is how they are treated in all other sources. As are gnolls and lizards (although neither of those races are really all that powerful, and I wouldn't have too many problems with PC's using them).

As for the Gathlain, We already had Strix and Syrinx with flight abilities. Flight is not THAT gamebreaking in the right campaigns.

Trox are CR 2, so there is a bit of a level adjustment going on there.

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Would love to see a ghoran boon. Mmmm... delicious.


You'll note that the profile for a Lizardfolk PC has a lot less natural armor than the monster (1 point rather than 5). I don't think the PC version is broken.

The level adjustment system works to mitigate imbalance when characters of those races are introduced, but it tends to fall apart at high levels, with the racial abilities mattering much less at that stage.

Strix and Syrinx are both interesting races but they are built on considerably more points than most PC races. If played at low levels it takes a good GM to figure out how to adjust encounters to make sure they are challenging, since flight overcomes a lot of obstacles that are a big issue at low level. Personally I would love to play a Strix but I can totally understand why a GM would disallow them.

Peet


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Peet wrote:

You'll note that the profile for a Lizardfolk PC has a lot less natural armor than the monster (1 point rather than 5). I don't think the PC version is broken.

The level adjustment system works to mitigate imbalance when characters of those races are introduced, but it tends to fall apart at high levels, with the racial abilities mattering much less at that stage.

Strix and Syrinx are both interesting races but they are built on considerably more points than most PC races. If played at low levels it takes a good GM to figure out how to adjust encounters to make sure they are challenging, since flight overcomes a lot of obstacles that are a big issue at low level. Personally I would love to play a Strix but I can totally understand why a GM would disallow them.

Peet

Race Builder is an extremely flawed system that fails to measure the power of the races against each other. first, it fudges prices to make the core races look balanced and the majority of the featured or uncommon races look more powerful by comparison than they truly are. most of them are still inferior to the human and dwarf when it comes to the power of the human's bonus feat and skill points, or the dwarf's massive bonus on 95% of the saving throws they make. heck, if we are so worried about Strix, Merfolks, Fetchlings, Tieflings and Aasimaar, but the real power races are the human, dwarf, half elf, and half orc.


Some of them aren't as crazy powerful as some oracle/bard aasimaar builds so I'm cool with it generally.

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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Peet wrote:

You'll note that the profile for a Lizardfolk PC has a lot less natural armor than the monster (1 point rather than 5). I don't think the PC version is broken.

The level adjustment system works to mitigate imbalance when characters of those races are introduced, but it tends to fall apart at high levels, with the racial abilities mattering much less at that stage.

Strix and Syrinx are both interesting races but they are built on considerably more points than most PC races. If played at low levels it takes a good GM to figure out how to adjust encounters to make sure they are challenging, since flight overcomes a lot of obstacles that are a big issue at low level. Personally I would love to play a Strix but I can totally understand why a GM would disallow them.

Peet

Race Builder is an extremely flawed system that fails to measure the power of the races against each other. first, it fudges prices to make the core races look balanced and the majority of the featured or uncommon races look more powerful by comparison than they truly are. most of them are still inferior to the human and dwarf when it comes to the power of the human's bonus feat and skill points, or the dwarf's massive bonus on 95% of the saving throws they make. heck, if we are so worried about Strix, Merfolks, Fetchlings, Tieflings and Aasimaar, but the real power races are the human, dwarf, half elf, and half orc.

This is true.

The Dwarf is far and away the most powerful PC race in the game. Made more so, buy the fact that its Save Bonuses continue to be valuable even at higher levels. Added to this, the dwarf also enjoys Darkvision, Good Weapon Familiarities, and the non-trivial ability to largely ignore encumbrance.

The Halfling's Luck is also quite powerful, but it is really the only "awesome" ability that Halflings get. Hardly compensation for the smaller weapons that small races are forced to use.


Do remember that driders get something like seven levels of cleric casting built into the race.


Scavion wrote:
Some of them aren't as crazy powerful as some oracle/bard aasimaar builds so I'm cool with it generally.

aasimaar is not that powerful with the exception of a few niche builds of oracle and bard, which involve taking specific alternate favored class bonuses to build 1 trick ponies who put all their eggs in one basket. aasimaar oracles maximize one specific revelation and aasimaar bards, their ability to inspire courage. the inspire courage part isn't too bad, and the only practical revelation i can see minmaxing is the life oracle's channel because most of the other revelations cap fairly early.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Some of them aren't as crazy powerful as some oracle/bard aasimaar builds so I'm cool with it generally.
aasimaar is not that powerful with the exception of a few niche builds of oracle and bard, which involve taking specific alternate favored class bonuses to build 1 trick ponies who put all their eggs in one basket. aasimaar oracles maximize one specific revelation and aasimaar bards, their ability to inspire courage. the inspire courage part isn't too bad, and the only practical revelation i can see minmaxing is the life oracle's channel because most of the other revelations cap fairly early.

A one trick pony who spends their FCB, a feat, and a revelation to get an amazingly powerful animal companion who can smite doesn't sound like a one trick pony.

The APG Drider doesn't get spellcasting.

I've close to never seen folks play a Dwarf. Most optimal builds I've seen run humans, Aasimaars, Tieflings, and the rare half orc with most wizards being elves.


Scavion wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Some of them aren't as crazy powerful as some oracle/bard aasimaar builds so I'm cool with it generally.
aasimaar is not that powerful with the exception of a few niche builds of oracle and bard, which involve taking specific alternate favored class bonuses to build 1 trick ponies who put all their eggs in one basket. aasimaar oracles maximize one specific revelation and aasimaar bards, their ability to inspire courage. the inspire courage part isn't too bad, and the only practical revelation i can see minmaxing is the life oracle's channel because most of the other revelations cap fairly early.

A one trick pony who spends their FCB, a feat, and a revelation to get an amazingly powerful animal companion who can smite doesn't sound like a one trick pony.

The APG Drider doesn't get spellcasting.

I've close to never seen folks play a Dwarf. Most optimal builds I've seen run humans, Aasimaars, Tieflings, and the rare half orc with most wizards being elves.

none of the abilities the revelations mimic have a true post 20th level progression, unless you follow the established pattern, which would work for something like a rogue's sneak attack or a cleric's channeling, but not so well for an animal companion due to the akwardness of the chart.

the smite is only once a day, and if you are medium, you are restricted to camel or horse, or if you are small, pony, dog, wolf or boar. any additional options require DM fiat. none of these options aren't too powerful as combatants and contribute as little more than mounts or pack mules. they are all otherwise weak options.


We may need to redefine what 'legal' means.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Race Builder is an extremely flawed system that fails to measure the power of the races against each other...

Yeah, I agree totally with this. In my mind the attribute bonuses should play a much bigger role in the 'value' of a race. Many of their abilities that are worth RP are relatively trivial. The human "skilled" trait is worth 4 RP. Having +2 to INT would be superior to this but would only be worth 1 RP if you built humans that way.

Sadly that system is here to stay. I don't think griping will change it much. That much being said I think that RP still goes a fair way in determining relative value of races because attribute-wise most races are similar.

My point though about levels is still very valid. Say you are playing a Strix at level 1. The ability to have flight at will is HUGE. Way more valuable than the human's bonus feat.

Now let's look at the same characters at level 16. The Strix has flight at will. So what? Doesn't everyone? What do you mean you can't fly? Get yourself to the magic shop boyo!

I don't personally believe that humans are always the best. The thing about humans is that they work for any class, and most races are class-focused because you are going to want to pick a race with an attribute bonus and abilities that fit your class. The human advantages can be used towards any class which makes it easy to make a human character.

I don't think dwarves are so amazing, either. Their abilities are useful but their stat bonuses aren't focused towards any one character type. +2 CON is useful for anyone but isn't a requirement for any particular class. +2 WIS is nice for clerics, but the -2 CHA penalizes the other special ability that clerics have. So while dwarves are basically good in general, their abilities don't particularly support any class.

Meanwhile, a look at the Tiefling and Aasimar races shows pretty clearly that they are a cut above humans. This is particularly because of the race books (blood of fiends/blood of angels) created a wide variety of subtypes of these races, so now you can pick and choose which subtype has the attribute bonuses that suit the class you want to play.

I think a proper analysis of race power levels needs to take into account how well their abilities suit a particular class.

Peet


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Some of them aren't as crazy powerful as some oracle/bard aasimaar builds so I'm cool with it generally.
aasimaar is not that powerful with the exception of a few niche builds of oracle and bard, which involve taking specific alternate favored class bonuses to build 1 trick ponies who put all their eggs in one basket. aasimaar oracles maximize one specific revelation and aasimaar bards, their ability to inspire courage. the inspire courage part isn't too bad, and the only practical revelation i can see minmaxing is the life oracle's channel because most of the other revelations cap fairly early.

A one trick pony who spends their FCB, a feat, and a revelation to get an amazingly powerful animal companion who can smite doesn't sound like a one trick pony.

The APG Drider doesn't get spellcasting.

I've close to never seen folks play a Dwarf. Most optimal builds I've seen run humans, Aasimaars, Tieflings, and the rare half orc with most wizards being elves.

none of the abilities the revelations mimic have a true post 20th level progression, unless you follow the established pattern, which would work for something like a rogue's sneak attack or a cleric's channeling, but not so well for an animal companion due to the akwardness of the chart.

the smite is only once a day, and if you are medium, you are restricted to camel or horse, or if you are small, pony, dog, wolf or boar. any additional options require DM fiat. none of these options aren't too powerful as combatants and contribute as little more than mounts or pack mules. they are all otherwise weak options.

"Primal Companion (Ex): You gain the service of a faithful animal of the night. You can select from a bear, boar, crocodile, shark, tiger, or wolf. This animal functions as a druid's animal companion, using your oracle level as your effective druid level."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracl e-mysteries/lunar-mystery

The whole Lunar mystery is actually crazy good. Most games don't go past 12th. Once per day, kill a boss sounds good to me.

Lets see...an Oracle channeling and early access to channeling feats is crazy good. Not to mention being better than clerics at it with clerics never able to close the gap.


so what if aasimaars and tieflings can tailor their 2 attribute bonuses to a given class due to blood of fiends and blood of angels?

dwarves have attribute bonuses, that while not the best for a given class, are good for several martially inclined classes, the ability to ignore encumbrance, a penalty to a common martial dump stat, a massive dodge bonus against a common mid level creature type, a massive saving throw bonus that can be easily augmented to even more absurd levels.

it starts as a +3 to fortitude and will and a +2 to reflex, which can all be increased by 2 for a feat and 1 for a trait.

they also get free trap spotting in a common enviroments

dwarves get a lot that compensates for the lack of a bonus in a primary offensive stat

humans get a bonus feat and bonus skill points. allowing them an easier time at meeting prerequisites. they can swap that bonus feat for 2-3 skill focuses if they want and also enter a lot of builds earlier

there are some racial abilities that can compete with attribute bonuses and most of them, aren't minmax an extra couple points of damage, minmax one specific class feature to the extremes, and similar things, a lot of them open up options, or improve survivability.

so what is the 12th level oracle has an 18th level companion with 14-15 hit dice that can kill one boss per day? now they have to divert a portion of their own wealth to keep the pet effective, because the pet suffers from all the problems of a fighter. in fact, the fighter can at least divert points to develop social skills, the animal companion has a much harder time with that.


Agree with Umbriere largely; aasimar is crazy good for a few niche classes (though the best revelation trick they have is largely due to a "bug"; while legal, I imagine it might very well be erratad), but humans and dwarves are ALWAYS powerful.

For all classes that do not rely on Charisma, Dwarf is an excellent choice.
For all classes, Human is an excellent choice.


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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

so what if aasimaars and tieflings can tailor their 2 attribute bonuses to a given class due to blood of fiends and blood of angels?

dwarves have attribute bonuses, that while not the best for a given class, are good for several martially inclined classes, the ability to ignore encumbrance, a penalty to a common martial dump stat, a massive dodge bonus against a common mid level creature type, a massive saving throw bonus that can be easily augmented to even more absurd levels.

it starts as a +3 to fortitude and will and a +2 to reflex, which can all be increased by 2 for a feat and 1 for a trait.

they also get free trap spotting in a common enviroments

dwarves get a lot that compensates for the lack of a bonus in a primary offensive stat

humans get a bonus feat and bonus skill points. allowing them an easier time at meeting prerequisites. they can swap that bonus feat for 2-3 skill focuses if they want and also enter a lot of builds earlier

there are some racial abilities that can compete with attribute bonuses and most of them, aren't minmax an extra couple points of damage, minmax one specific class feature to the extremes, and similar things, a lot of them open up options, or improve survivability.

so what is the 12th level oracle has an 18th level companion with 14-15 hit dice that can kill one boss per day? now they have to divert a portion of their own wealth to keep the pet effective, because the pet suffers from all the problems of a fighter. in fact, the fighter can at least divert points to develop social skills, the animal companion has a much harder time with that.

This is a hilarious post. "So what if Aasimaars and Tieflings can tailor their stat bonuses to whatever class you want to play and receive incredibly powerful racial abilities as well?"

Yes, Dwarves can get a great deal of defensive power. Its a shame that Pathfinder is primarily offensive minded.

As for the Oracle with an overpowering animal companion, by 5th level it has trumped your fighter in combat ability. If your lucky, the fighter can pull him up from that using his wealth. The incredibly powerful part comes from the Oracle only had to expend a few choices to gain such a powerful ally. He still has all his spellcasting choices and gets some kick butt revelation choices.

The pet wouldn't even need a whole lot of investment. I'd just buy a bloody amulet of mighty fists for it and call it a day. Maybe get it a belt too. It auto pierces DR once per day.

"The Animal Companion has a much harder time developing social skills."

I can't argue with that. Thankfully we don't need the tiger to be a party face.


Lord Fyre wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Peet wrote:

You'll note that the profile for a Lizardfolk PC has a lot less natural armor than the monster (1 point rather than 5). I don't think the PC version is broken.

The level adjustment system works to mitigate imbalance when characters of those races are introduced, but it tends to fall apart at high levels, with the racial abilities mattering much less at that stage.

Strix and Syrinx are both interesting races but they are built on considerably more points than most PC races. If played at low levels it takes a good GM to figure out how to adjust encounters to make sure they are challenging, since flight overcomes a lot of obstacles that are a big issue at low level. Personally I would love to play a Strix but I can totally understand why a GM would disallow them.

Peet

Race Builder is an extremely flawed system that fails to measure the power of the races against each other. first, it fudges prices to make the core races look balanced and the majority of the featured or uncommon races look more powerful by comparison than they truly are. most of them are still inferior to the human and dwarf when it comes to the power of the human's bonus feat and skill points, or the dwarf's massive bonus on 95% of the saving throws they make. heck, if we are so worried about Strix, Merfolks, Fetchlings, Tieflings and Aasimaar, but the real power races are the human, dwarf, half elf, and half orc.

This is true.

The Dwarf is far and away the most powerful PC race in the game. Made more so, buy the fact that its Save Bonuses continue to be valuable even at higher levels. Added to this, the dwarf also enjoys Darkvision, Good Weapon Familiarities, and the non-trivial ability to largely ignore encumbrance.

The Halfling's Luck is also quite powerful, but it is really the only "awesome" ability that Halflings get. Hardly compensation for the smaller weapons that small races are forced to use.

I don't know about "far and away". I do admit for classes with that with Steel Soul it is awfully attractive for someone like myself that likes good saves. :)


Scavion wrote:

This is a hilarious post. "So what if Aasimaars and Tieflings can tailor their stat bonuses to whatever class you want to play and receive incredibly powerful racial abilities as well?"

what incredibly powerful racial abilities do they really recieve?

darkvision? lots of races have that, and those that don't, have low light or another sensory ability

energy resistances? when has energy resistance 5 really made a difference past level 3? energy damage is already a joke as it is, if you are so worried about energy damage, than you clearly haven't seen the damage a well built martial character can deal

skill bonuses? like darkvision, handed out like candy

SLAs? these are good for 2 things, Arcane Strike, and qualifying for casting PRCs early. Arcane Strike eats up a swift action and just because you can fill the casting Prerequisite for a PRC multiple levels early, doesn't change the fact PRCs tend to suck, and doesn't change that PRCs are limited to 10 levels

in the case if a tiefling, you can gain a prehensile tail or spend a feat on natural armor. and in the case of an aasimaar, you can take human feats and favored class bonuses with an alternate racial.

Scavion wrote:

Yes, Dwarves can get a great deal of defensive power. Its a shame that Pathfinder is primarily offensive minded.

a common belief, but a failed save can mean the difference between life and death. saving throws are a far more important defense than armor class and making your save allows you to continue dealing damage, something these optimized glass cannons often neglect.

Scavion wrote:

As for the Oracle with an overpowering animal companion, by 5th level it has trumped your fighter in combat ability. If your lucky, the fighter can pull him up from that using his wealth. The incredibly powerful part comes from the Oracle only had to expend a few choices to gain such a powerful ally. He still has all his spellcasting choices and gets some kick butt revelation choices.

The pet wouldn't even need a whole lot of investment. I'd just buy a bloody amulet of mighty fists for it and call it a day. Maybe get it a belt too. It auto pierces DR once per day.

"The Animal Companion has a much harder time developing social skills."

I can't argue with that. Thankfully we don't need the tiger to be a party face.

by giving up favored class bonuses, your oracle's constitution might as well be 2 lower than normal. same effect on most builds. you spent a revelation and mystery choice. an amulet of mighty fists is absurdly expensive, and you need both a belt and a cloak of resistance as well as magic barding to keep your pet up to par. your pet is better in melee than a martial PC, and neither care about social skills, but the martial PC can train in ranged weapons and specialize in combat styles that tiger can't due to lacking humanoid hands, and due to lacking access to combat expertise. the fighter also gets more skill points, and also gets a favored class bonus, doesn't need to be taught tricks, and has more feats to train in those styles.

not every foe is in tiger pouncing range due to such factors as flight and terrain


Darkvision is no joke. Those who don't have it can feel it when they don't have it.

Can you say with complete honesty that playing an Aasimar wouldn't make your Oracle a better character overall?

No matter how high you boost your saves, a 1 is still game over.

5th Level the Oracle has 34 HP on average.
This is the Tiger the Oracle has by 5th level without magic items.

Erathell, Beast of Valor
Celestial Tiger

HP: 42
AC: 17 (Leather Barding)
DR 5/Evil, Resist Cold/Acid/Electricity 10
SR 10

STR 24 +7
DEX 17 +3
CON 17 +3
INT 2
WIS 15 +2
CHA 10

Fort +8, Reflex +8, Will +4

Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +12 (1d8+7 plus grab), bite +11 (2d6+7 plus grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks pounce, rake (2 claws +12, 1d8+7), Smite

Base Atk +4; CMB +12 ; CMD 25 (29 vs. trip)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Weapon Focus (Claw)

Sp Abilities: Erathell, Beast of Valor may smite evil 1/day as a swift action (it adds its Cha bonus to attack rolls, and a damage bonus equal to its HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or Erathell rests).

So good for the martial right? He gets to specialize in ranged combat since he'll only be on par or worse than the tiger throughout the early and mid game level in melee. And especially not when the Tiger starts smiting.

Of course there are some hyper optimized builds that sacrifice everything for DPR that can surpass it. However for this companion we spent very few resources, get a nice dump stat, have tons of other really nice revelation options and we're a full spellcaster to boot.

Terrain and flight bother martials even moreso since we're still a full caster.

You *maybe* need a belt and a cloak past 9th level. Till then its going to shred everything anyway.

There are very few problems a super tiger and an oracle couldn't take care of.

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