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I asked in a thread if anyone who was using a whip build ever had thier GM sunder the whip, and this is one of the responses I got.
"I've never had a GM who screwed his players over by abusing sunder.
It's just bad form to destroy player's magical weapons."
So is it wrong to uses combat maneuvers against a PC if said maneuver would destroy a players equipment?
Not wrong, but a lot of players get very touchy when GMs do anything to take away PCs equipment. Might turn into real-life quarrel over the table. So, if you know that your players are greedy, don't do that.
there is nothing wrong with sunder and disarm used against PCs. the real problem, isn't that you sundered the bard's whip. it's that the bard focused exclusively on a single whip. numbers become a lot more balanced when PCs have to invest in backup weapons. the same is said of balancing wizards by making them invest in second or third spellbooks, component pouches, and tracking the gold cost of their components and consumables.
a common house rule i use for such a scenario is the miscellanius supplies budget. a PC may spend any amount of gold on their miscellanius supplies budget. which is tracked seperately from looted items and the like.
looted items and components, must use what they were looted as
but a character can deduct an amount from their misc budget equal to the market cost of the item (no crafting discounts, even on items you have the feats for). whether consumable, such as potion, wand, scroll, or alchemical item, ammunition in whole batches, minor magic items (such as weaker magic items and minor trinkets that can be purchased in a metropolis) or anything you can reasonably carry in a backback, belt pouch or wagon.
a looted potion of fly is always, a potion of fly, a looted 5,000 GP diamond is always a looted 5,000 GP diamond
however, a character can convert 5,000 GP of misc funds into a diamond for raise dead or 750 GP into a potion of fly. the revealing of this item takes the same action as withdrawing a stowed potion. until the item is used, neither it's weight nor it's size matter
it gives martial characters more versatility if they spend the money in a town
however the issue with sunder, isn't that sunder is bad form, it's that a lot of PCs feel they have to have the best affordable weapon and a lot of them place their eggs in one basket. the problem isn't with sunder, it's PCs who put their eggs in one basker
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How many times have you seen PCs sunder their enemies' gear ?
I NEVER saw it. Because PCs want to keep the loot intact.
Why would NPCs think any differently ?
This is why Sunder can indeed be a jerk-GM move, in addition to the impact on PCs which, by definition, is far stronger than the impact on (dead) NPCs.
Yes it is considered bad form.
Remember when the Rust Monster was dramatically nerfed to prevent it from destroying gear. Same situation. This is a throw back ability from a time when devs thought it was cool to put fear into players by threatening their gear. Not sure why sunder even remains in the game... I don't use it as a GM. And I would likely just flee any encounter where the bad guys targeted gear instead of the real threat, the PCs.
The exception might be if the PCs are using a certain item to great effect against them... perhaps a magic item that puts them at a severe disadvantage. Severe enough that they would risk losing it from the expected loot in order to improve their chances.
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however the issue with sunder, isn't that sunder is bad form, it's that a lot of PCs feel they have to have the best affordable weapon and a lot of them place their eggs in one basket. the problem isn't with sunder, it's PCs who put their eggs in one basker
I wonder why this is so prevalent ?
Maybe because the system itself strengthens this choice.
Putting the blame on PCs for this is not very fair IMO.
Punishing PCs because they build their characters in the best possible way according to the system's mechanisms is rather unfair and smacks of GM vs players mentality. Which is NEVER a good thing in my book.
Moreover, ignoring what your players expect out of the game and that you just might be ruining their fun are not qualities for a GM.
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"Bad form"? I'd hesitate to go that far, but I'd say it's something you use sparingly.
I have (I think...) a sort of unspoken gentleman's agreement with my current GM, playing a Barbarian (who took Improved Sunder to make Spell Sunder look nice in combat), I won't neuter some of his enemies by breaking all their junk, and he'll avoid doing the same thing to me.
One time I broke this agreement (I was on my last legs after some weird ass Crusader uber Vital Strike Smite b!&*@!~~ did 100+ damage to me in one shot), and smashed everything an enemy had to stop him from killing me as easily (except his shield, missed on the darn shield with a 1), and he later had a dragon Yoink! And away with my shiny +4 (equivalent) Adamantine Earthbreaker.
S'all good, but I know I'd be super pissed if it happened more often.
Ignoring the fact that characters kinda rely on gear in this game, it's the most annoying possible thing to have to constantly replace your stuff.
Imagine if someone came up to you every day and took something of yours. Snatched your stapler, or your cutting board, or your laptop...and you couldn't do anything to prevent it, when all's said and done.
Yeah...
Right up there with tossing Dominates at a guy until he rolls a 1 on the save and then orders him to sit in a corner for 3 rounds/over an hour, twiddling his thumbs. *gives wraithstrike the stinkeye*
I think, that players take in-game gear too seriously. Of course, everyone play this game in a manner most suitable for them. It should be taken in consideration when designing an encounter.
Sunder is s specific tool and quite useful in a game with social consequences, where you need sometimes to stop undesirable combat ASAP, when you need to take someone alive and not risk yourself much in prolonged combat with non-lethal damage. There other methods, but sunder can be put to it as well. It also possibly can demoralize or humiliate an opponent.
It is less useful in dungencrawls, where you just kill things to get loot. But when you face a raging barbarian with a greataxe it may be prudent to sunder his axe than risk to be one-shotted with a crit while depleting his 100+ HP.
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I've never used sunder and it has never been used against me. But saying that, if it is fine for players to do it then it is fine for villains to do it.
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Anyone here ever play Nightmare Keep?
I have seen a party remove everything they were carrying and put it in a pile and redistribute gear because half of them had armor and no weapons and the other half had weapons and no armor.
That module destroyed gear so quickly and thoroughly that they had to repeat this process a total of 3 times.
That is a dick move. Breaking one piece of gear is not.
If a PC over-specializes and/or decides not to purchase any back-up weaponry or equipment that is their failure and absolute lack of vision and foresight...not the GM's. The life of an adventurer is hard and requires planning. That planning includes what to do when stuff gets broken...at least it better. Otherwise you just built an Achilles heel into your build and an intelligent well prepared and informed enemy will find it and exploit it eventually.
"Optimized" characters that do not carry back-ups are not optimal. They are a liability to the sensible members of the party who do think to do such things.
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Another thing to bear in mind when it comes to sundering PC gear is that it's going to have a major impact on character wealth. Most weapon-using martial characters are going to have a lot of gold tied up in their armor and primary weapon(s). Smashing all that gear is going to substantially weaken the character, unless there's something else to balance the loss out (Like finding a replacement sword in the encounter loot).
The other big issue with going sunder-heavy is that if the GM isn't careful it can end with the player's not being able to meaningfully contribute to the combat, or even the next several combats. It's very rare for a player to be alright with effectively being stuck on the sidelines and unable to (meaningfully) contribute to the game.
There are definitely ways to make sundering fun, but I think the key is to not make the player feel trapped and helpless. Have a dragon smash their sword, then follow it up with a perception check to see if they notice a sword hilt sticking out of the dragon's hoard. That way it feels less like their character is now weak and helpless, and more like the character is in dramatic peril they can overcome with the right moves.
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Im pro sunder, though i would consider it a sparring use. As someone mentioned your average npc is just as liable to want to gank a pc's gear and sell it/ use it themselves... but You have to live to sell that raging barbarians great axe, and say the pc is oh a high enough level to have a name for himself, what well prepared bad guy wouldnt think of hamstringing his opponents.
I always warn my players when i run a game to not become a one-trick pony, eventually some baddy somewhere will 'optimize' to win too. Not all baddies are dumb
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Loved the vid, Ciretose.
I should have mentioned, naturally, If a GM tears up a bunch of gear then he should give the players a chance to gain WBL in order to go about replacing it.
But...that WBL definitely need not be in a form particularly useful to them at the moment. They may have to return to the civilized lands, barter for special materials and even undertake quests for rare magical components in some cases before they are able to replace/reforge their lost and sundered "precious".
As I said before, back-ups are not just a good idea, they are the unwritten law of the wild. In the annals of American history the legendary Mountain Men often carried two or three of everything that they could not make themselves. Adventurers would be wise to take note of their example.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with using Sunder to give PCs' equipment the broken condition.
I'd generally draw the line at destroying it completely (and you don't have to, per the Sunder rules) - but if it is okay to kill characters, albeit only rarely, then it should also be okay to destroy their stuff on rare occasions.
Also, a few monsters are designed to Sunder a lot - Nightwalkers, for instance - so that's the way I use them in play.
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Loved the vid, Ciretose.
I should have mentioned, naturally, If a GM tears up a bunch of gear then he should give the players a chance to gain WBL in order to go about replacing it.
But...that WBL definitely need not be in a form particularly useful to them at the moment. They may have to return to the civilized lands, barter for special materials and even undertake quests for rare magical components in some cases before they are able to replace/reforge their lost and sundered "precious".
Which means that the guy who had his "precious" sundered will lag behind the rest of the party (casters notably) for much longer. Nice
As I said before, back-ups are not just a good idea, they are the unwritten law of the wild. In the annals of American history the legendary Mountain Men often carried two or three of everything that they could not make themselves. Adventurers would be wise to take note of their example.
If, by back-up, you mean identical abilities, then you just halved the WBL of your average martial. Just in case he has his "precious" sundered.
And of course, nothing prevents the bad guys from sundering the back-up.
Come to think of it, that is a great way to support the Monk as an efficient martial ;-)
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Back in 3.5 my group was 16ish level and had a good reputation so it was pretty easy for the bad guys to get info on us. One of the problems when you a bards singing about you. Next time we encountered on of the big bads (a wizard) he drpped mages disjunction in the middle of our gruop. A million gp worth of magic items down the tubes.
Its was annoying but a valid tactic against a strong group. We were still able to kick his ass with our mundane weapons but took a hell of a lot more punishment then we normally did.
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Mending and Make Whole can go a long way to alleviate the Sunder anxiety
No, Raven, by backup I do not mean identical abilities. I mean that +1 weapon that gets left in the pile that no one wants, but a martial character could still use as a back-up.
As to your first point, that is why I do not pick on any one character. If I am going to run an encounter with sundering bad guys I make sure to use enough to spread the love around so to speak. I recently used a sundering encounter in a Snow White game that I ran. Seven adamantine axe wielding dwarven barbarians with the improved sunder feat. See what I mean? Plenty of love for everyone. (The Seven Dwarves?) In that particular encounter I broke two weapons (a barbarians and a rogues) and I did not destroy anything. But it did function as a de-buff for the barbarian for the rest of the adventure because they were on a time sensitive quest that could not wait.(The wicked witch had kidnapped "Snow White"!) The Rogue just borrowed a +2 Longsword from the parties ranged-focused ranger.
The smart move for a player who just lost (as in destroyed) his weapon in a sundering encounter is not to pull his backup, but to go to his switch-hitter option, to employ teamwork options, if all else fails to call for help from his allies, or (gasp!), heaven forbid, to retreat. If a PC cannot use a back-up, switch to a different tactic, utilize a teamwork option or is too foolish to retreat then he was either overspecialized or being played foolishly in most cases.
And you are right about the monk. In a game where the GM uses the occasional sundering encounter the PC's are usually quite thankful to have a monk around. But they appreciate a martial character who carries a back-up weapon or two a lot more. :)
Nothing wrong with sundering pc's gear just don't do it all the time
The main reason pc's don't do it is greed no one wants to destroy gear but if it means you live or die then you do what you have to
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I don't even see what's so bad about sundering. Yeah, the weapon breaks, but how much is a scroll of Make Whole?
I will use it, but very sparingly. Such encounters will either be foreshadowed (where the PCs know the opponent uses sunder), award a large amount of wealth to compensate, or be one of the final encounters of the campaign. Usually a combination of at least two of those.
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I don't even see what's so bad about sundering. Yeah, the weapon breaks, but how much is a scroll of Make Whole?
It can get a bit expensive to buy one with the required CL to fix the destroyed magic item.
The problem with make whole is that it requires the caster to have twice the CL of a destroyed magic item in order to fix it. This quickly outpaces the average CL of items commonly found at a party's WBL.
- +1 -- 6th
- +2 -- 12th
- +3 -- 18th
- +4 -- 24th
- +5 -- 30th
- bane -- 16th
- brilliant energy -- 32nd
- corrosive -- 20th
- cruel -- 10th
- defending -- 16th
- flaming -- 20th
- frost -- 16th
- furious -- 16th
- ghost touch -- 18th
- holy -- 14th
- keen - 20th
- shock -- 16th
- speed -- 14th
- spell storing -- 24th
- vicious -- 18th
some of the more common enhancements:
- +1 -- 6th
- +2 -- 12th
- +3 -- 18th
- +4 -- 24th
- +5 -- 30th
- animated -- 24th
- bashing -- 16th
- bolstering -- 10th
- deathless -- 14th
- fortification (any) -- 26th
- ghost touch -- 30th
- mirrored -- 16th
- shadow -- 10th
- slick -- 8th
- spell storing -- 24th
- wild -- 18th
Some of the more common enhancements:
I'm glad PFRPG added the "non-nuclear-option" of sunder to just bestow the broken condition, but even that can set players off. I once had a magus' player flip out when his scimitar got sundered down to a 20/x2 crit range. Pointing out to him that a 0-level mending would fix it didn't help much. It may have been just a short-tempered player, but sunder tends to bring the rage so quickly I almost never use it as a player or GM in public games.
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I don't even see what's so bad about sundering. Yeah, the weapon breaks, but how much is a scroll of Make Whole?
"Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item."
"For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus."
So, a +3 weapon with no further enhancement (18 000 gp) has caster level 9.
A destroyed +3 weapon needs a Make Whole cast by a 18th level caster.
The required Make Whole scroll would theoretically cost only 900 gp. But how often do you see scrolls scribed by 18th level wizards ? Also there would be the DC19 caster level check for casting it without the appropriate level.
Edit : ninjaed ;-)
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I still find the idea of "compensation" odd. If a PC wants something, or wants something replaced, I expect them to work for it. If they feel they cannot go into full battle without their "whip of whippery" then they can get a couple of extra jobs to earn the money to get it.
I also feel WBL is a GM tool, not a players "right". If they want more cash then negotiate harder or get a job. These extra efforts by the PC's tend to lead to more interesting RP experiences.
So, sunder away, if appropriate. Most creatures will still go for the soft and tastey bit of the PC though won't they?
I don't even see what's so bad about sundering. Yeah, the weapon breaks, but how much is a scroll of Make Whole?Make Whole has a limitation.
...if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.
In general, scrolls you can purchase on the open market are created at minimum caster level. Make Whole's a level 2 spell, so a 3rd level wizard can scribe it.
How many magic items have a CL of 1 ?
@TheBlackRaven "Come to think of it, that is a great way to support the Monk as an efficient martial ;-)"
No need for the smiley, it's part of the point of a Monk.
Also a build that relies on one special item in a rule set that allows for the damage of gear is not builing a character in the "best possible way according to the system's mechanisms". I realise that Weslocke has already pointed this out but thought it best to let you know that they are right.
Ingenwulf: The problem is that gear IS an integral part of your abilities.
This isn't an issue if you're a wizard: A full caster has ALL his class abilities even if naked - gear is just boosters to them. Yay class balance huh.
This is NOT the case for, say, a Fighter or Barbarian or Rogue - non-casters are completely dependent on their gear. They cannot keep up. If you don't have that +5 sword, you're not just +5 damage down. Your accuracy just got shot, your damage is down way more [as suddenly DR actually works like you were some hapless town guard against that dragon] than just by that, and you've probably lost one or two special abilities.
So keep that in mind; the amount of extra work they need to do to get back to how they were is no different from all the questing you hopefully also expect from that mage to get his spellcasting back.
You DID also have the cleric's god tell the cleric to go f*** himself as a result of someone else's curse or something at some point too, right?
Right?
I think you put too much stress on "keeping up" with the spell users. Each class has it's niche, area of expertise, or just plain fun bits (else we would all play spell users) . If you are of a level that has the wherewithall to own a +5 sword then they would likely be able to scrape together enough for a +3 replacement.....now he's only +2 out.
As for Clerics, you seem to have your own particular axe to grind, I can't see how to sunder one but am willing to try.
Something else I'd think about -- if you're going to use sundering, make sure the players know those tactics will be on the table. You don't have to say, "Hey, guys, there's a sundering encounter today!" But I think saying, "Your intelligent adversaries will be intelligent" should be enough.
Also, it helps to establish this if you do it early on. If the players have been merrily adventuring in a sunderless universe, and suddenly when they're at level 16, Sunder McSunderer and his Sunderian Warriors attack and destroy the PCs' Sword of Awesomeness and Staff of Ultimate Buttkicking, then (IMO) your players have a legitimate beef with you. (Unless, of course, the local bard, Simon Foreshadowing, has been singing songs about Sunder McSunderer. In that, case, your players should know what's coming.
On the other hand, if their very first BBEG (the evil Baronet SmallTime) orders his minions, "Destroy their blades, you fools, then kill them!" then from that point on, your players are on notice that they're in a universe where smart enemies are going to go for their stuff, and they'll be more on guard later. Sunder the 2nd level fighter's masterwork longsword? Sucks, but he'll recover. Sunder the 16th-leveler's Sword of Awesomeness? That takes a long time.
I think you should handle any obscure rule this way. Some GMs ignore certain rules (weather, encumbrance, riding, and so forth) in favor of concentrating on other elements of the game (political RP, dungeon crawls, what have you). You can subtly (or not so subtly) let your players know that certain rules will be in effect. If you do that, they can't legitimately complain.
I agree 100% with this. I'm not a fan of any "different rules for PCs" approach. And I think that using the full Pathfinder rules often adds another level of challenge and complexity to the game. Disarming takes a weapon out of someone's hand, but they can still pick it up -- sundering solves this problem if it's a dangerous opponent. It will make players think about bringing backups along with them.
In my mind, sundering is perfectly fair, provided it is not taken to the extreme. If every encounter has the PCs fighting a group of sunder barbarians, that is too far.
The danger is that people tend to overspecialize. Rather than having a back-up weapon or two, they invest everything into one weapon. Then, yeah, when it gets sundered it is a huge loss. If they had invested just a bit less in their primary weapon, they could have a pretty solid back-up. By the time you are putting the +3 equivalent enchantment on your Sword of Awesome!, you can afford to instead get a couple Swords of Great to serve as a back-up. This way, if your primary weapons gets sundered, you lose less money and are not hurt as much because you have a decent spare.
There is a disconnect, I feel, in what players want and what would be practical. If you have a bard that is entirely based off of using whips, why would he not pack a spare? He is just going out and adventuring with only one of the weapon he can use effectively, blindly trusting that nothing will happen that will make him lose it? That is, quite frankly, dumb.
I don't even see what's so bad about sundering. Yeah, the weapon breaks, but how much is a scroll of Make Whole?
You still need a high enough caster level and you still need to have the scroll or access to it.
Anyways, I'm not sure if its considered bad form, but its not particular nice or known for going over well. Adventurers like their loot and when its broken you could really screw them over and I've never been a big fan of the golf bag backup weapon style. I never use it myself.
How many times have you seen PCs sunder their enemies' gear ?
I NEVER saw it. Because PCs want to keep the loot intact.
Why would NPCs think any differently ?
This is why Sunder can indeed be a jerk-GM move, in addition to the impact on PCs which, by definition, is far stronger than the impact on (dead) NPCs.
Right. Disarm is fine. But both sides need to figure they are gonna win, right? If your gonna win, why destroy the “Phat lewt”?
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Another consideration: Players DO have defenses against sundering. There are feats, items, abilities, and leveling options that all counter sunder-happy foes. If you're going to invest a bunch of gold in the Sword of Awesomeness, did you think about getting it made of adamantium? Did you take the Improved and Greater Sunder feats? Some races let you take a bonus to CMD against sundering when you gain a level in fighter. Did you take advantage of this?
Those sound like taxes rather than preparations in some cases. Alternatively a lot of people take things more versatile or good for any situation, rather than improved and greater sunder just in case they might have sunder used against them.
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I've used sunder against opponents many times. Against humanoids with weapons, it can end a fight very quickly.
I also took steps to help lessen the chance of loosing my weapon and armor to a sunder via mithril, adamantine, and magical bonuses.
It's not bad form for a GM to sunder a player's gear. Players just don't like it. You may as well say it's bad form for a GM to kill a character.
It's not bad form for a GM to sunder a player's gear. Players just don't like it. You may as well say it's bad form for a GM to kill a character.
I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison.
I never suggested a golf bag of supplemental weapons. I suggested A BACK UP (singular). It can be a dagger, or a hand axe. It does not have to be three extra large-sized bastard swords shoved in a haversack.
I do not approve of the golf bag approach either, Mr. Sin.
I do strongly advocate carrying A back up weapon though. Just as I strongly advocate that each character carry a weapon usable in a grapple and always make a point to mention that it can be their back-up if they wish.
As far as it going over well, I simply inform new players before a game starts that this is a mathematical eventuality. It WILL eventually happen if they play long enough. Either a baddie will break a weapon or a disjunction will tear up all their enchanted gear or an evil wizard will disintegrate their earthbreaker/breastplate/shield or I will awesome blow them off an 100' cliff and their unattended weapon will almost certainly get smashed in the fall.
Personally, I have never had a player complain about equipment loss in three decades of running games. And I have broken/burned up/melted/smashed/disintegrated/disjuncted/disenchanted/rusted away/torn/stapled/mangled/ground down/corrupted/mythal rippled or otherwise damaged and/or destroyed nearly every non-artifactual (and some of those too) magic item or piece of equipment ever printed at some point or another.
Edit: I had to add Mythal Ripple to the list as it probably accounts for at least 30% of the items I have ever destroyed.
I've had a number, but I also like naming equipment and putting backstory and the like into it so breaking equipment is a little more brutal than just breaking a +3 sword, though some players just like to treat the flaming sword with a cool name like another +3 sword still...
Also, stapled?
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I'll echo what others said:
1: Sunder isn't as end-all in PF as it was in 3.x. The destruction is not nearly as complete.
2: Pretty much everyone wants loot, after all, their lives are going on the line in the combat. Baddies would need a good reason to use Sunder (unless they just want to watch the world burn).
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The real tragedy of sunder is that you have to go look up the rules to see how sunder works, and how many HPs a certain item has, or DR, and what happens to it when it's broken, because it's still somewhat usable, etc. I dunno about you all, but I haven't gotten those dusty sunder rules memorized!