two rules questions Stand up and 5 foot move and Aid another clarification


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Can a player stand up, move 5 feet and take a standard action?
The Core rule book isn't clear based on the movement rules.

2nd question:

Two fighters standing next to a shadow. One has a magic weapon the other wants to Aid another and help the fighter with the magic sword on his attack roll. Can the fighter use aid another even if he can't hit the shadow?


Yes to both.
Standing up doesn't count as moving for the purposes of preventing a 5 foot step. Only moving across the battlefield does that.
And Aid Another isn't about hitting an enemy. It's about... I dunno, distracting them or something?

Shadow Lodge

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Baronjett wrote:

stand up, move 5 feet and take a standard action?

The Core rule book isn't clear

Can the fighter use aid another even if he can't hit the shadow?

1) Yes, he didn't "move for any distance" so the Core is crystal clear. He may stand up, take a 5 ft step, and standard action.

2) Yes


1. Actually the Core Rulebook is clear.

Core Rulebook, Combat, 5' Step wrote:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.

It says "movement", not "move action". There are many things you can do on your turn that use your "move action" but are not "movement". Movement requires you to move around the battlefield and uses your "base movement speed" to figure out how far you can move. If you're not doing that, then you're not "performing any other kind of movement."

2. This is considerably less clear. Aid Another does say that you make an attack, so it might stand to reason that you must be able to make an attack against the same enemy your ally is trying to hit. But at the same time, it says you merely need to hit AC 10 so it clearly means that the difficulty of hitting the target is not a factor here. You could even Aid Another ally to hit me, the Tarrasque, by simply rolling a hit against AC 10.

However, here's a counter question. Could you use Aid Another if you're completely tied up, or paralyzed, or Held? No. Why not? Because you need to roll an attack. Attack against what? The air? If so, then the AC should be 0, not 10. So presumably, you ARE attacking something. Can you Aid Another from 100' away from his target, or even from 10' away without a reach weapon? No. The rules say you must be "in position to make a melee attack against his target". This means, presumably, that you must somehow be attacking your ally's target. Therefore, it really does stand to reason that if you cannot possibly hit that target, then you should not be able to use Aid Another either. But, this is not explicitly stated in the rules (I personally think it should be) so until it is (which it might never be), the answer is still yes, you can use Aid Another even if it is impossible for you to hit the enemy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Baronjett wrote:

Can a player stand up, move 5 feet and take a standard action?

The Core rule book isn't clear based on the movement rules.

Incorrect. You can not take a 5 foot adjustment in combination with any other kind of movement, which includes standing up. The player can stand up ,and either move (5 foot or more as his standard action), or make an attack. However, unless his enemy has combat reflexes, he'll only would have had to worry about provoking the AOO from standing up.


Attacking involves some kind of movement. Does that prevent a 5 foot step?


DM_Blake wrote:


2. This is considerably less clear. Aid Another does say that you make an attack, so it might stand to reason that you must be able to make an attack against the same enemy your ally is trying to hit. But at the same time, it says you merely need to hit AC 10 so it clearly means that the difficulty of hitting the target is not a factor here. You could even Aid Another ally to hit me, the Tarrasque, by simply rolling a hit against AC 10.

However, here's a counter question. Could you use Aid Another if you're completely tied up, or paralyzed, or Held? No. Why not? Because you need to roll an attack. Attack against what? The air? If so, then the AC should be 0, not 10. So presumably, you ARE attacking something. Can you Aid Another from 100' away from his target, or even from 10' away without a reach weapon? No. The rules say you must be "in position to make a melee attack against his target". This means, presumably, that you must somehow be attacking your ally's target. Therefore, it really does stand to reason that if you cannot possibly hit that target, then you should not be able to use Aid Another either. But, this is not explicitly stated in the rules (I personally think it should be) so until it is (which it might never be), the answer is still yes, you can use Aid Another even if it is impossible for you to hit the enemy.

For what its worth, incorporeal doesn't say anything about such creatures being unable to be hit by non-magical weapons, only that they take no damage from such weapons.


LazarX wrote:
Baronjett wrote:

Can a player stand up, move 5 feet and take a standard action?

The Core rule book isn't clear based on the movement rules.

Incorrect. You can not take a 5 foot adjustment in combination with any other kind of movement, which includes standing up. The player can stand up ,and either move (5 foot or more as his standard action), or make an attack. However, unless his enemy has combat reflexes, he'll only would have had to worry about provoking the AOO from standing up.

Bolded incorrect part.

PRD wrote:
If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

When standing up you move no actual distance, and is a move equivalent action not actually a move action. Ergo, you can take a 5-foot step after performing the action.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Attacking involves some kind of movement. Does that prevent a 5 foot step?

Movement in this case involves movement from one grid square on the map to another grid square on the map.

Things like breathing (which involves movement of your chest), flapping your arms, or any other type of movement of your body do not count.


bbangerter wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Attacking involves some kind of movement. Does that prevent a 5 foot step?

Movement in this case involves movement from one grid square on the map to another grid square on the map.

Things like breathing (which involves movement of your chest), flapping your arms, or any other type of movement of your body do not count.

I think Matthew's response was somewhat flippantly directed at LazarX, heh.

Just to point out why you can stand up, then take a 5-foot step and still have a standard action: 'Movement' is a defined game term:

Additional Rules - Movement:
Movement
There are three movement scales, as follows:

Tactical, for combat, measured in feet (or 5-foot squares) per round.
Local, for exploring an area, measured in feet per minute.
Overland, for getting from place to place, measured in miles per hour or miles per day.
Modes of Movement: While moving at the different movement scales, creatures generally walk, hustle, or run.

Walk: A walk represents unhurried but purposeful movement (3 miles per hour for an unencumbered adult human).

Hustle: A hustle is a jog (about 6 miles per hour for an unencumbered human). A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.

Run (×3): Moving three times speed is a running pace for a character in heavy armor (about 7 miles per hour for a human in full plate).

Run (×4): Moving four times speed is a running pace for a character in light, medium, or no armor ( about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human, or 9 miles per hour for a human in chainmail) See Table: Movement and Distance for details.

As a game term, movement does not refer to any sort of general motion of any or all parts of your character's body, but to traversal of distance on the scales described above. 'Standing up' is not one of the modes of movement mentioned, and therefore does not violate the 5-foot step's restriction on not taking any other 'movement'.


Xaratherus wrote:


I think Matthew's response was somewhat flippantly directed at LazarX, heh.

Reading it again, you are likely correct on that.

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