** spoiler omitted **
Rules Questions:
1) Can a familiar feint for you? (Like can they use your Greater Feint feat, I assume no. Any way to make this happen?) Else familiar makes decent flanking buddy and can use UMD.2) Can extra rogue talent be used to take advance talents? (I would assume yes)
1) No.. a familiar can not feint for you. You can only feint for yourself. If you take improved familiar, though, you can get a familiar that is big enough to flank with.
2) Yes. You'll note that the rogue gets the "advanced talents" feature at 10th, but keeps on getting "rogue talent" at even levels. Basically, you can take advanced talents at level 10+ because you have the advanced talents feature, but they are still just considered rogue talents... you are simply picking from an expanded list.
** spoiler omitted **
Rules Questions:
1) Can a familiar feint for you? (Like can they use your Greater Feint feat, I assume no. Any way to make this happen?) Else familiar makes decent flanking buddy and can use UMD.2) Can extra rogue talent be used to take advance talents? (I would assume yes)
1) No.. a familiar can not feint for you. You can only feint for yourself. If you take improved familiar, though, you can get a familiar that is big enough to flank with.
2) Yes. You'll note that the rogue gets the "advanced talents" feature at 10th, but keeps on getting "rogue talent" at even levels. Basically, you can take advanced talents at level 10+ because you have the advanced talents feature, but they are still just considered rogue talents... you are simply picking from an expanded list.
1) Any feats or archetypes to get a familiar to be able to use greater feint?
2) I'm surprise more people aren't considering this. Advance talents are fairly useful. At least as good as a feat.
Personally I think a small air elemental familiar is AMAZING!
More likely than not, if you are in melee you can flank with it.
Skill mastery can also be taken multiple times.
Yes... it is unfortunate isn;t it? I think that the lack of defining talents and frankly... GOOD talents is a real problem.
Talents are traded out for feats ASAP because once you get the 2 or 3 that you actually wan't... the rest end up being pretty junky.
Conversely, I would argue that Extra Rage Power is the best feat that a barbarian can take. Sad, isn't it? How that class has such a similar structure of picking from a long options list, and yet all of their options are better.
The APG really boosted barbarians immensely with the addition of totems... it would be very nice if rogues got the same sort of love. If you boosted talents up to the point where they (like rage powers) were often better than feats... you would do a lot to make the rogue an appropriately attractive class.
The evidence in this thread shows that a rogue can be effective... but also that it often steps well outside of the actual theme of the class as it should be. (heavy armor, high strength, two-handers, dwarves being the best rogue due to saving throw issues etc.). I would agree... the rogue can be quite useful. The issue I have is that the rogue is still not very attractive as a class. Feature by feature, the class sort of falls apart when shown in direct comparison to any other class.
The rogue is a weird case... it can be quite decent as a class... but it is the most conditional class setup in the game. No traps? All undead? Half of the monsters can't be crit? The effectiveness of the class is far to dependant on the situation in front of it.
Lots of traps? Always have a flank partner? Everything can be sneak attacked and has lower AC? No debilitating will or fort saves and lots of reflex saves? Wow that rogue is great!
I think, however, that the overall package is seriously lacking. The fact that it can be played well doesn't really change that. TBH the rogue should be a full-BAB class. Rogue talents should be as good as rage powers... and that should be the end of it.
I disagree that the rogue should be full BAB.
Now if there was a talent that would allow me to feint as a swift action...
Maybe a rogue talent that unlocks that as a feat. Heavy cost, but the way of the fencing rogue.
Maybe a rogue talent that unlocks that as a feat. Heavy cost, but the way of the fencing rogue.
It could be an advance talent that requires finesse rogue/weapon finesse, combat expertise, improve feint, greater feint and only works if you have a free hand for all I care.
Being able to consistently do full attacks of sneak attacks would be worth a lot of investment.
So close.
I need the cloak slot for a cloak of resistance. I would want a familiar to cast blur on me.
It also doesn't help that the feat requirement is intensive.
It is doable I think, but would definantely exclude TWF (which is not necessarily a bad thing)
|
moonlight stalker is to pricy for its effect. its a terrible feat line for a rogue, but semi atainable for a rogue/fighter (or slayer from ACG). but at that point your killing your damage and skills for 2 successful attacks at best?
at that point i would just go the shatter defences rout with corungun smash or enforcer. you would get to shatter defenses faster then moonlit stalker as a solid rogue. you might even be able to squeeze in twf for an extra attack.
Hey two sneak attacks can be 22d6+30 (ave 107) damage at 20 with a +5 agile keen rapier.
That's not the 147 damage from an unoptimized fighter's first 3 attacks, but it would be noticeable and consistent.
@Marthkus
Your Post:
Pick a race that gives low light vision or Darkvision2 level dip Fighter (Lore Warden)
+2 BAB
+3 Fort
+2d10 HP
2 bonus combat feats (Weapon Finesse, Blind Fight)
Combat Expertise free at level 2
4 skill points per level, 2 must be used on INT skills (Spellcraft if you like item crafting)Unfortunately this delays the familiar by two levels.
1 - Fighter - Weapon Finesse, Deceitful or Skill Focus or Blind Fight
2 - Fighter - Combat Expertise, Blind Fight or Improved Feint
3 - Rogue - Moonlight Stalker
4 - Rogue - Minor Magic (Prestidigitation)
5 - Rogue - Craft Wondrous Items (SLA provides the prerequisites for this) / Skill Focus if no craft feats or Improved Feint
6 - Rogue - Combat Trick (Moonlight Stalker Feint)
7 - Rogue - Improved Feint or Moonlight Stalker Feint
8 - Rogue - Combat Trick (Greater Feint) or Weapon Training
9 - Rogue - Greater Feint or Moonlight Stalker Master
10 - Rogue - Major Magic (Silent Image)
11 - Rogue - Moonlight Stalker Master
12 - Rogue - Advanced Talent (Familiar)By level 8 you could have a swift action feint that allows a full attack of sneak attacks. I'm not huge on multiple skill focus feats, but to each their own.
Skill mastery is more important than a familiar. Taking 10 on UMD and Bluff can be very useful. With deceitful and skill focus at level 10 that is a +10 bonus + 3 class bonus +10 ranks is a plus 23. Now you can take 33 vs 10+BAB+Wis or 10+Sense motive bonus. Even with the occasional -4 or -8 penalty that is basically an auto feint. (Which denies dex bonus for everyone not just you, which can be a very useful contribution)
I'm concerned by how late skill focus(UMD) comes in. That is the rogues range attack.
(Also with half-elf, you get a free skill focus feat at lvl 1)
So close.
I need the cloak slot for a cloak of resistance. I would want a familiar to cast blur on me.
It also doesn't help that the feat requirement is intensive.
It is doable I think, but would definantely exclude TWF (which is not necessarily a bad thing)
How original?
Are you sure you want to take the cloak of resistance again? How many times have you taken that out of your last four characters?
Why not fill it with something more useful to the build?
I didn't say it was not useful, if you read above. There are more potentially useful cloaks for a rogue and cloaks that gel and compliment specific builds. Saves aren't everything. Someone suggested a very "useful" cloak for a rogue but marthkus said no, he wanted the cloak of r instead.
As for not being able to find a better cloak, well if you want a stealth bonus and being able to fly, the cloak of the bat is far better. Very suitable for house-breaking, dungeoneering in caverns and navigating urban environments at night.
Think outside the box people, try something different to what you try all the time (this applies if you are the type to take cloak of r over and over again).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Saves aren't everything.
"The last words of world famous thief "Ima Gunnashankya" before petrified by a medusa. His memorial still stands here bearing the exact expression of shock on his face before being petrified."
|
Wow this thread got long! I am half way through reading it (took a break for holidays). I think it shows that the rogue's position in the party is important, no matter who fills it.
The rogues job as I see it in the dungeon is stealth ahead, clear traps and when enemies are found, report back to the party. The party can then apply appropriate short term buffs without wasting important in-combat actions. The rogue then stealths back to get into position and waits for the party to trigger the encounter.
Traps need to be interesting. If trapfinding is not important in an adventure, it is the fault of the writer or GM. I can usually tell if an adventure writer plays a rogue by the detail in the traps. When a rogue finds a trap, describe it. It makes game play more fun and increases the likelihood the party will bypass it to use later against a bad guy. Traps should be made to detain or kill intruders or give the denizens a combat advantage. Zap traps just use up wand charges. Remember judges: ALL TRAPS MAKE NOISE! When a trap goes off, the denizens of the surrounding rooms come running. Roll initiative when the trap goes off, if only to make players cinch up.
Also there is ALWAYS a chance to find a trap. Some writers put the entire trap mechanism on the other side of the door and say it cannot be detected. Foul! I had a judge in 3.5 (who wanted me to fail) ask me "how are you searching for traps?" I answered "like a high level rogue with max ranks, high intelligence, and racial bonuses would." I don't recall him asking the wizard the words for a fireball spell.
Last bit of Rogue love: Rogues have the highest percentage of faction mission completions at PFS tables.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some useful rogue items:
Robe of Needles: Can't miss first round sneak item for cheap
Deliquescent gloves: At will touch attack without burning two talents. Some debate on if this gives a touch attack, though.
Jaunt Boots: Three chances a day to change a single attack to a full round attack. Also useful for getting out of trouble.
Quick runners shirt: Also handy for getting into position or escaping. 1/day so buy extras.
Ghost salted arrows: A cheap way to sneak attack incorporials. Incorporials usually have crap for hit points and AC. So snipe away or flank and use arrow stabs.
Wand of cure light: also useful for sneak attacks on the undead.
Adamantine salted blunt arrows: for pesky golems
Gloves of reconnaissance: like ring of x-ray but way cheaper
longarm bracers: great if you have Gang up feat
Whip: So you're not proficient, if you have Weapon finesse, you have a better chance to hit with non-proficiency than you do with a longspear. Use to aid another or gang up when you can't get close.
Wand of Darkvision: Three hours/use, should last the rest of your career from when you can afford it. Still cheaper than goggles. Added bonus: use it on your allies when Drow pop up.
For the archer rogue:
Seeking Bow + Smoke arrows: fire a smoke arrow at your own square, then fire short range sneak attacks with impunity. Added bonuses: 20% miss chance, do not provoke for firing in melee, 2.5gp cheaper per use than wand of obscuring mist, takes less time than a wand, affects only 1 square so you can still see in all directions and you don't screw your allies by blocking their view. Later on, add Merciful and take the Sap Master feats. Cap it with Sniper's goggles.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Battlefield control Rogue: (similar in play style to my 3.5 rogue)
Uses a combination of reach from the whip, combat reflexes, and high dex to increase attacks per round without the -2 penalty from TWF. Usually gets off more attacks per battle than TWF. (Hard to quantify)
How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.
Half-Orc (City Raised) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 12
Lawful Neutral Humanoid (Human, Orc); Deity: Torag
STRENGTH 11, DEXTERITY 20/24, CONSTITUTION 14/16, INTELLIGENCE 10, WISDOM 10, CHARISMA 14/16
Fort +7, Reflex +15, WILL +4, AC 28
+1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip S, Disarm, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip, +18/+13, 1d3+8
Acrobatics +21, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +23, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +21, Intimidate +23, Perception +15, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +21
Feats: Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Whip), Enforcer, Improved Whip Mastery, Shadow Strike, Shatter Defenses (Whip), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits: Defensive Strategist (Torag), Armor Expert
Special Abilities: Brutal Beating (6 rds) (Ex), Crippling Strike (Ex), Darkvision (60 feet), Entanglement of Blades (Ex), Frightening, Offensive Defense (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Scout's Charge (Ex), Skirmisher (Ex), Sneak Attack +6d6
Gear (about 60k spent): +1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip, +1 Mithral Buckler, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Celestial armor, Circlet of persuasion , Hag's shabble, Handy haversack, Headband of alluring charisma +2 1 lb, Ioun stone (clear spindle) <In: Wayfinder, Ioun stone (pink rhomboid), Rogue's kit, Smoke pellet x5 <In: Wrist sheath, spring loaded, Smoke pellet, smog , Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of enlarge person <In: Wrist sheath, spring loaded, Wayfinder , Wrist sheath, spring loaded, Wrist sheath, spring loaded
Edit: the thug Frightening ability + enforcer makes frightened status easy to achieve also.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A change the PTB's at Paizo could add in future supplements to improve the rogue:
Allow rogues to use talents to gain specific feats they do not have the prerequisites for. You know, like monks and rangers and fighters do already.
It could read
Improved Combat Talent: may select any Improved combat maneuver feat (such as Improved Overrun) as a bonus feat.
Kaleb, you are a champion, and clearly also an opportunist.
|
|
A halfling rogue multiclass chassis (15,14,14,14,12,07 array):
STR-12
DEX+17
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA+16
racial archetype: swift as shadows
01 paladin1 [divine hunter(Precise Shot)], Point Blank Shot
02 rogue1 SA+1d6
03 paladin2 [divine grace], Rapid Shot
04 rogue2 DEX>18 [Talent]
05 rogue3 SA+2d6, FEAT[g] ...etc. (buy DEX belt)
Equipment: belt of incredible dexterity, STR+1 small MW composite longbow, cloak of resistance +1, +1 mithril chainshirt, +2 mithral buckler, +1 rapier
...at 5th:
Saves: F+10/R+13/W+6
AC: 24, 27 (smite buddy)
Init: +5 (not counting traits/feats/etc)
Stealth: +17(-check penalty)
Character concept: heroic infiltrator
Higher level equipment: oathbow, celestial armor
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A talent was suggested by our party rogue.
Agile Rogue(Ex): Prereq: Weapon Finesse or Finesse Rogue
Any weapon with which you use the Weapon Finesse feat is also treated as having the Agile Weapon enhancement.
Not too powerful for a talent that scales with level. There are several feats that duplicate a +1 weapon enhancement, Improved critical comes to mind.
This could be in a future supplement *cough* Advanced Class Guide *cough* as well.
An advanced Talent that gives 2nd level spells would be nice too. Maybe even 3rd?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I’ve been playing around with some more builds. Here are a few to consider. I stuck to the base Rogue class only, no archetypes.
My primary goal with each of these was to accomplish the goal for the Rogue according to the PRD; The rogue is a thief and a scout, an opportunist capable of delivering brutal strikes against unwary foes.
This first one is my least favorite, but thought it was interesting.
Traits: Reactionary, Resilient
Str: 14
Int: 18
Dex: 14
Cha: 13
Con: 10
Wis:10
Feats and Talents
1. Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot
2. Focused Shot
3. Stealthy
4. Improved Initiative
5. Skill Focus Stealth
6. Snap Shot
Gear: Masterwork Composite Shortbow (+2 Str), Studded Leather Armor, Various Adventuring Gear.
Skills: 13
Stealth: +16
Acrobatics: +11
Diplomacy: +10
Perception: +9
Escape Artist: +15
Knowledge Local: +13
Knowledge Arcane: +13
Knowledge Geography: +13
Linguistics: +13
Climb: +11
Swim: +11
Disable Device: +11
Use Magic Device: +11
Defenses
AC: 15
HP: 36
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +2
Offense
Initiative +8
Melee Attack = +6
Range Attack = +8 (Base +4, Dex +2, PBS +1, MW +1)
Average Damage without Sneak Attack = 10 (1d6 plus Str +2, PBS +1, FS +4)
Average Damage with Sneak Attack = 21
10th Level Build
To expand this build a little bit, we might consider the following
7th: Unarmed Strike
8th: Ki Rin Style (Ninja Trick, Combat Trick)
9th: Ki Rin Strike
10th: Skill Mastery
So at 10th Level, our range attack is at +11/+6 for an average of 36 per hit (1d6 plus Str +1, PBS +1, FS +4, Ki Rin +8, plus 5d6 SA). His Stealth is now at +25. Potentially, this Rogue is doing 108 pts of damage before anyone acts in around. Say 72 as the iterative attack is less likely to hit. That’s still over 50% of the average CR 10 encounter’s HP.
However this is not my favorite build. I like some of the Dex builds a little better. I also don’t like that fact that his Perception is so low. IMO a good scout also needs a high Perception, and a +9 is falling in that 50/50 success rate again.
One more thing, can we agree on a point build? Is 20 good?20 is a great baseline being PFS and standard 4d6 average. Heres a level 6 Inquisitor without magic items. His Spells Known is very free to pick, Divine Favor is the only one he absolutely needs.
Thank you for posting that. I may steal that for when I play an Inquisitor someday. At first glance, the Inquisitor is putting up an impressive 45 DPR, when buffed.
However, it has been mentioned on this thread that SA is situational (not you necessarily). If we are going to call Sneak Attack damage “situational”, I’d like to point out the reliance on this buffed damage is situational as well. It is easy to gloss over the fact that the strengths of the Inquisitor are limited. Bane lasts 6 rounds per day. Judgement can be used twice per day. Divine Favor is a standard action to cast, and lasts one minute (1 combat). In an average day of adventuring, with at least 4 encounters, and say 3 rounds of combat each, the Inquisitor is doing 22 points of damage per round with +6/+6 to hit, when he’s used up his tricks. Or he's waiting till round two to cast Divine Favor (unless someone is doing some good scouting for him).
In addition, he’s limited on how quickly he can get these buffs up in place. I could be wrong, but it is very misleading to state that a PC is going to be easily getting these buffs up in 1 to 2 rounds. When combat starts, I’d guess 90% of the time, the PCs do not have time to buff without significant scouting or research. That means PCs who depend on buffs on themselves are wasting rounds buffing rather than contributing to combat. In other words, in the first round the Inquisitor would be casting Divine Favor and activating Judgement as a swift action, no attacks. In round 2, the Inquisitor is going nova, Bane is triggered as a swift action, and he is at +13/+13 to hit and does an average of 46 DPR. However, be comfortable with the fact that you didn’t contribute until round 2, and you will only contribute at full power for 1 combat, and partial for roughly 2, maybe three combats.
Also, I think if we are doing a DPR race, we are ignoring some of the best parts of the rogue. The strength of the Rogue above is that
1. His damage does not rely on resources that are limited by uses per day.
2. His resources do not waste action economy to implement.
Consider the following.
Scouting
Let’s say the rogue and the inquisitor are part of a unit exploring a dungeon. First, the Inquisitors Stealth is decent, but really only gives him a 50/50 chance of successfully pulling off a scouting mission at 6th level. The typical 6th level encounter has a perception of +8. If the opposition rolls a 10, the inquisitor needs to roll a 9 or better. The rogue needs a 2 or better. Who is the liability when scouting?
Granted it is my experience that good scouting provides the rest of the group the opportunity to buff and prepare for an upcoming encounter. The lack of scouting leads to fewer opportunities to buff.
Surprise
We’ve established that the rogue should have a comfortable time gaining Stealth and thus a surprise round. The Rogue has to determine at this point if the enemy can be taken out, softened, or if he should just retreat to inform the group. If he decides to attack, the Snap Shot talent ensures that I will also act first in the surprise round with a 28. Score 21 pts of damage for our Rogue.
Round 1.
The Rogue needs to make another decision here. If he attacks, he should win initiative. If it looks questionable, he could make one shot and retreat back to the group (He didn’t scout further than 30’ ahead, right?). Or he could make a full retreat before the enemy closes at all. Let’s say he shoots and then moves. Score 21 for the Rogue (total 42).
The Inquisitor also makes a decision. Does he spend a full round casting Divine Favor? Or did the Rogue let him know what was up ahead before making a surprise attack?
Let’s say there wasn’t time. The Inquisitor swift actions Bane, so his attacks are +8/+8 and he does 40 pts of damage. He’s caught up nicely.
Round 2.
Who cares? The real damage dealer in the group (fighter, barbarian, paladin, etc) cleans up the rest of the encounter. The average CR6 encounter is dead. The rogue has done what he needs to do, and he can do it again without expending per day expenditures.
I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.
Shattered Star
Encounter: Initiative, Perception, AC, HP, Dex, CMD, Feint DC
Boggards: -1 +4, 14, 22, -1 13 12
Daghop: +1 +10 17 53 +1 20 15
Will O Wisp:+13 +15 25 40 +9 24 23
Solifugids: +1 +4 17 45 +1 18 NA
C. Columns -1 +0 14 36 -1 18 NA
Elementals +2 +9 18 68 +2 27 22
Golem -1 +0 21 96 -1 27 NA
Gnaeus +2 +10 17 79 +2 24 16
Sentinels +7 +6 20 43 +3 23 20
Incubus +2 +13 18 76 +2 25 23
Daemons +4 +7 16 19 +0 12 18
Ooze -5 -5 NA
Seugathi +9 +15 19 67 +5 25 23
3 Traps
Jade Regent
Encounter Init Perception AC HP Dex CMD Feint DC
E. Hoods +1 +8 16 11 +1 10 16
Trolls +2 +8 16 63 +2 22 14
Monks +6 +10 16 29 +2 22 16
Omoyani +4 +10 22 59 +4 27 18
Goti +2 +8 21 76 +2 21 15
Zombies +0 +0 12 12 0 14 NA
Statues +1 +0 16 47 +1 21 NA
Ninja +7 +5 15 20 +3 17 12
Kimandatsu +7 +14 24 104 +3 30 24
1 Trap
Serpents Skull
Encounter Init Perception AC HP Dex CMD Feint DC
Charuka +1 +2 14 19 +1 14 13
Giant Snake +3 +12 15 19 +1 18 17
Raogru +2 +3 20 82 +2 20 19
Decapus +1 +7 15 26 +1 20 17
Giant Wasp +1 +9 19 34 +1 19 NA
Queen Wasp +3 +11 19 84 +3 26 NA
Issilar +6 +17 25 92 +6 28 22
3 Traps
.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.
Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.
Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.
Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.
Which is McGuffin dependent. It was roughly 5 pages ago, but some were looking for builds that did not depend on magic items.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here are some builds that I liked more.
Level 6 Half Elf
Traits: Reactionary, Resiliency
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Cha: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 10
Con: 11
Feats and Talents
1. Point Blank, Shot, Skill Focus Stealth
2. Weapon Focus: Bow
3. Skill Focus: Perception
4. Combat Trick: Deadly Aim
5. Improved Initiative
6. Snap Shot
Gear: MW Composite Longbow (+2 Str), Studded Leather Armor, MW Elven Curveblade
Skills: (9)
Stealth +16
Perception +14
Acrobatics +13
Disable Device +13
Use Magic Device +11
(Pick 4 Others as necessary)
Defenses
AC 19
HP 36
Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +4
Offense
Initiative +10
Ranged Attack = +9 (+4 Base, +4 Dex, +1 MW, +1 PBS, +1 WF)
Average Damage with SA = 22 (4.5 Bow, +2 Str, +1 PBS, 10.4 SA, +4 DA)
.
Again, the primary tactic is to set up a great chance at scouting, and two SAs before anyone else in the fight can act. With a Stealth at +16, he is going to success in most scouting missions, where anything at 11 or lower is closer to a 50/50 chance of success. Snap Shot and a high initiative helps ensure he is getting off two SAs before anyone else acts and those will be at an additional +1 to +2 to hit.
In addition, he has a decent Perception score to help notice ambush creatures such as trappers or executioner hoods.
Level 6 Half Elf
Traits: Reactionary,
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Cha: 14
Wis: 12
Int: 10
Con: 11
Feats and Talents
1. Improved Initiative, Skill Focus Stealth
2. Finesse Rogue
3. Power Attack
4. Combat Trick: Furious Focus
5. Skill Focus: Perception
6. Snap Shot
Gear: MW Composite Longbow (+2 Str), Studded Leather Armor, MW Elven Curveblade
Skills: (9)
Stealth +16
Perception +14
Acrobatics +13
Disable Device +13
Use Magic Device +11
(Pick 4 Others as necessary)
Defenses
AC 19
HP 36
Fort +2, Ref +9, Will +4
Offense
Initiative +10
Ranged Attack = +9 (+4 Base, +4 Dex, +1 MW, +1 PBS, +1 WF)
Average Damage with SA = 17 (4.5 Bow, +2 Str, 10.5 SA)
Melee Attack +9 (+4 Base, +4 Dex, +1 MW)
Average Melee Damage with SA = 25 (5.5 Curveblade, +3 Str, +6 PA, +10.5 SA)
.
I took some inspiration from the guide on Rangers. This Rogue still scouts well, gets off a Snap Shot in the surprise round, the draws his curveblade to engage melee first in the round.
Which is McGuffin dependent. It was roughly 5 pages ago, but some were looking for builds that did not depend on magic items.Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.
Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.
The firesight feat is not, and is accessible by humans which you can get through racial heritage human.
Sniper Goggles only increase your range.
I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.
** spoiler omitted **
I forgot to add a bit of commentary on this. Just by this data, this is what is see.
1. If you don't have at a Stealth score at 15 or higher, you're just flipping a coin on whether you are a good scout or not. With a Stealth of 16, you can roll a five and beat the average Perception check (opponent rolls a 10)
2. Going for Combat Maneuvers is a rough road.
3. Feint isn't such a bad path. Yes, it's feat intensive, but take Deceptive and Skill Focus: Bluff and you should be getting SA most times.
4. This little exercise leads me to believe that the designers have kept a balance in the class. If the Rogue was given much more power, we'd be seeing more threads on how the Rogue is ruining APs.
Which is McGuffin dependent. It was roughly 5 pages ago, but some were looking for builds that did not depend on magic items.Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.
Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.
The firesight feat is not, and is accessible by humans which you can get through racial heritage human.
Sniper Goggles only increase your range.
Thanks. That's pretty interesting.
I also posted about 5 pages ago how I wanted to do a bit of an analysis on how various builds should play out in an AP. I took a snap shot from three APs that I’ve run and have the following. I’ll reference this a bit with my builds below.
** spoiler omitted **
I forgot to add a bit of commentary on this. Just by this data, this is what is see.
1. If you don't have at a Stealth score at 15 or higher, you're just flipping a coin on whether you are a good scout or not. With a Stealth of 16, you can roll a five and beat the average Perception check (opponent rolls a 10)
2. Going for Combat Maneuvers is a rough road.
3. Feint isn't such a bad path. Yes, it's feat intensive, but take Deceptive and Skill Focus: Bluff and you should be getting SA most times.
4. This little exercise leads me to believe that the designers have kept a balance in the class. If the Rogue was given much more power, we'd be seeing more threads on how the Rogue is ruining APs.
1. With >5ft of smoke from a smoke stick between you and an opponent they can't see you. No stealth check required.
1. With >5ft of smoke from a smoke stick between you and an opponent they can't see you. No stealth check required.
True, but that's not the point I was going for. The primary mission for my rogue builds are to collect information on the enemy so the group can prepare. If you take a look at the average Perception skill for 6th level enemies, it is at roughly +8. That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success. Getting Stealth up is a priority. At +16, you need to roll a 2 on average to be a success for you group.
The second function is to soften up the enemy before anyone can act. The builds I just posted are throwing out over 40 points of damage (over 50% of a CR 6 encounter) before the enemy can act.
Now throw in you're smoke screen idea and we're doing even better in rounds 2 and beyond.
(It's kind of funny that I wanted to play an Ifrit soon. This would work nicely).
That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.
By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.
As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.
Battlefield control Rogue: (similar in play style to my 3.5 rogue)
Uses a combination of reach from the whip, combat reflexes, and high dex to increase attacks per round without the -2 penalty from TWF. Usually gets off more attacks per battle than TWF. (Hard to quantify)
How to use:
Before fight (you scouted first, right) Shield wand, Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, move in to attack (single opponent), or use dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well.
At this point your opponents are shaken, sickened and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. -2 Strength, -4 to all d20 rolls -3 damage and your AC goes up +6 for a total of +11AC. Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken and set up for sneak attacks.Half-Orc (City Raised) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 12
Lawful Neutral Humanoid (Human, Orc); Deity: Torag
STRENGTH 11, DEXTERITY 20/24, CONSTITUTION 14/16, INTELLIGENCE 10, WISDOM 10, CHARISMA 14/16
Fort +7, Reflex +15, WILL +4, AC 28
+1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip S, Disarm, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip, +18/+13, 1d3+8
Acrobatics +21, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +23, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +21, Intimidate +23, Perception +15, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +21
Feats: Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Whip), Enforcer, Improved Whip Mastery, Shadow Strike, Shatter Defenses (Whip), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits: Defensive Strategist (Torag), Armor Expert
Special Abilities: Brutal...
What is your CMB on this build? Without crunching some numbers, I would think that you'd only be really successful with low CMD creatures. Not that I think it is an issue. I have a dwarf bard who does a similar strategy but only when it is an opponent who is clearly not a high CMD foe.
That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.
As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.
What level is the ranger? Any goblin or Hobgoblin can start the game with a Stealth upwards of +9.
What level is the ranger? Any goblin or Hobgoblin can start the game with a Stealth upwards of +9.That means that if the enemy rolls an average of 10, and you only have a +11 on Stealth, then you're too close to the 50/50 range of success.By the way, if anyone is wondering where I came up with this statement, it was posted several times that other classes can fill the Rogue's shoes and do it better. I still haven't seen the builds that work better as scouts, and not spend limited resources that can be spent better elsewhere. I could certainly be wrong.
As an experiment, I built one of my favorite Ranger builds (Switch Hitter). At best, I'm sitting with a Stealth score at +11 which is horrible if the group is depending on that for scouting. I could boost that up, but it draws away from other areas that I'd rather have a Ranger excel at. The Rogue however makes this easier.
I'll admit that I wouldn't consider playing a goblin or rogue. I tend to play humans. However, if you wish to play one as a Ranger that's great. They appear to make good Rogues too. Otherwise that is a racial feature rather that a class feature. Weighing the merits or demerits of that would take this discussion even further off course.
Thanks. That's pretty interesting.Which is McGuffin dependent. It was roughly 5 pages ago, but some were looking for builds that did not depend on magic items.Goz Mask + Sniper Goggles + Smoke stick = unlimited range full attack of sneak attacks. Just keep 5ft of smoke between you and the enemy.
Can replace Goz Mask by playing an Ifrit with the fire sight feat.
The firesight feat is not, and is accessible by humans which you can get through racial heritage human.
Sniper Goggles only increase your range.
Turns out you can't use racial heritage to grab that feat since ifrits are not humanoid.