The problems is the rogue's lousy BAB, AND the -2 from TWF.
Without tons of bonuses to hit, he has the same problems as the monk...a flurry of misses. Except he's paying feats for the privilege of missing.
If the rogue had full BAB, it would be much more viable. But those -1's every 4 levels hurt when trying to hit something.
==Aelryinth
Full BAB would fix a lot of things. Like it would make dirty trick rogues viable. Hmmm...
Kinda sad really. If there was one class that I would want to excel at maneuvers, it would be the rogue.
agreed :)
the rogue has 2 main issues
a lack of attack bonus
and
a lack of static damage bonus
The attack bonus makes the static damage bonus problem and exacerbates it. When you're matched against fighters with +4 TH and full BAB, taking -2 TH and 3/4 BAB is really, really bad.
Sneak Attack dice are awesome if all attacks hit. They aren't reduced by the off hand, so that knife in your off hand hits as hard as the one in your main. The problem is, neither attack is hitting.
Seriously, a TWF Rogue hitting with all 6 attacks could do +60d6 damage. 210 average damage is not bad at all. The problem is he'll never have a high enough TH to do it.
Static damage is nice, and there's ways around it with magic, notably the Agile Enchantment on a weapon, and the effect of Subtlety on the sword of the same.
But get the TH numbers up, and suddenly the rogue will look much, much better.
==Aelryinth
|
A couple of people wanted to see my idea of a grapple rogue, so here it is.
(As a heads up, I only have the bare minimums in here so that people can adapt to thier own needs or preferences, such as getting toughness/improved initiative/iron will etc...)
The Grapple Rogue made Possible
Maneuver Master Monk 1/Rogue 12
Stats: (assuming some race with a +2 to strength)
Str 22 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 12 Char 12
BaB: 9
Feats:
1. Weapon Focus: Grapple
*Improved Unarmed Strike
*Improved Grapple
3. Sap Adept -Any Rogue Talent
5. (Your Choice) -Any Rogue Talent
7. Sap Master -Any Rogue Talent
9. Greater Grapple -Any Rogue Talent
11.(You choose) -Any Rogue Talent
13.Pinning Knockout -Combat Talent: Rapid Grappler
*Bonus Feats
Items to get/consider
Dan Bongs (2 + enhancement bonus to grapples)
or
(*11,000) Adhesive Brawling Armor (+4 total bonus to grapples) and
(64,000) Amulet of Mighty Fists +4
(I will use the armor for this example)
(18,500) Anaconda's Coils +2 competence bonus to grapples
*The cheapest you can buy/get this
Your stats
Unarmed strike at highest BaB = 20
Grapple CMB = 31
Monster Averages @ CR 13:
CMD 38 CMD 25 AC 27
-----------------------------------------------------
Round 1:
30(grapple)/20(attack)/15(attack)
Damage: 2d6+26(unarmed strikes) + 1d6+7(Constrict)
=43.5 average damage (assuming all attacks hit)
Round 2:
***35(Pin Them)/*20(attack)/*15(attack)
(2d6+26 (unarmed strikes) + 12d6+24 (sneak attacks with sap adept)) X 2 (pinning knockout) + 1d6+7(**Constrict)
=160.5 average damage (assuming all attacks hit)
Or...
Round 2: With 3 grapple checks (using rapid grappler)
***35(Pin them)/35(Tie them up)/35(Deal Damage)
3d6+21(**Constrict) + (1d6+13(unarmed Strike) + 12d6+12(Sneak attack with sap adepts and sap master) X2)
=172.5 average damage (assuming all attacks hit)
Round 3:
***35(Tie them up)/*20(attack)/*15(attack)
(2d6 + 26 (unarmed strikes) + 24d6+24 (sneak attacks with sap adept and sap master)) X 2(pinning knockout) + 1d6+7(**Constrict)
=292.5 average damage (assuming all attacks hit)
Or...
Round 3: All grapple checks with rapid grappler
***35(Tie them up)/*35(deal grapple damage)/*35(deal grapple damage)
(2d6 + 26 (unarmed strikes) + 24d6+24 (sneak attacks with sap adept and sap master)) X 2(pinning knockout) + 3d6+21(**Constrict)
=313.5 average damage (assuming all attacks hit, which they should at this point, just saying)
Now most of that damage is non-lethal mind you. I don't have strangler in these calculations because it requires you to choose to deal damage instead of pinning.
*Remember, at this point the enemy is pinned and you are not, making these an easier rolls
**Would constrict trigger a sneak attack?
***After the first round, if they don't break free from a grapple you gain a +5 to your grapple checks. This means your CMD is very important (Consider getting the HD = BaB for CMD feat and items that improve CMD versus grapple)
I may have a few things wrong, but this is the jist of the grapple rogue. It's very doable. When you need to, you can use a wand of true strike to help with grapple checks after you get greater grapple. Swift grappler only works when you use a move action to maintain a grapple, so that's not ideal. You may consider getting it for when you do something other than flurry.
Dan Bongs may be a good way to go, but you can't use the armor enchants with them, and you have get two feats to make them work correctly (Exotic Weapon Prof. and Bludgeoner)
Finally, there may be a few errors in here, but it should be mostly correct. Also, when tied up, your bound, which makes you helpless, which means your flatfooted. Thats my honest opinion, but if you want to, check it out on the rules forms. It's definitely a toss up between yes and no.
Full BAB would be bad IMHO. people that gravitate toward this kind of classes do not do it to be a meat grinder melee monster.
The rogue need more roguish thing, things that works not like most rogue talents.
things i think the rogue should have gotten
a full BAB
a means to gain sneak attack without requiring flank or surprise, such as a means to make a perception check opposed by the Target's AC as a swift action to treat them as flat footed for a whole round
monk base saving throws (fighter should get thus too)
a passive means to ignore sneak attack immunity
an extraordinary option to gain Dex to Damage with finesse weapons that isn't built into a weapon enchantment, gained relatively early (1st level) and combinable with weapon finesse also gained for free at 1st level. have both options also be available with feats
the ability to use a variety of skills at an acellerated speed compared to others
No, they should not have the same bab as fighters, barbarians and paladins, which have far more of a martial focus.
If you guys want more bab? Mix your rogue with fighter. If you don't want to take a bit of a hit to bab in exchange for all those skills, don't play a rogue.
If you want even more bab talk to your dm about playing a warrior or warrior rogue. Ke? For them to balance with pf classes every two to three levels you should be getting an extra level of warrior, since they get bab, okay hit die and not much else, no special abilities, jack, thus ECL and what that means for a player comes up. This is an old 3.0 solution. Some dipping into warrior for the bab and hit die (you could even use it to work certain high skill specialisation characters, e.g. everyone else is level 7, you are a rogue 1 level 8 warrior, which means max ranks is 9, not 7 (savvy?). That is an ECL issue, so chat to your dm and see what they have to say. Maybe you will love your rogue warriors for ever and ever.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know what rogue need the most? Is to understand their role. Instead of complaining their don't have enough BAB, maybe they should realize how OP they would be if they have that much BAB. It will mean that not only they can take out caster at ease with sneak attack, they can do that on fighter which they shouldn't. Through out the history of gaming, caster should beat fighter while they beat archer/rogue. Rogue/Ranger should beat caster. It's a balance that is always there. Rogue shouldn't be greedy and to beat monster with similar traits as a fighter.
What rogue are most suitable for is being a scout of the team with lots of connections.
You are not as good as Ninja in terms stealth and combat, but good enough to get the job done.
You may not be as welcoming as the Paladin in Town, but guess who gets the secret connections for info when we hits town? Rogue gets it! Oh! Bard can do that too with his diplomacy and Disguise! No, go play your lute, you bard. No one gets the underground connection except for rogue!
Fighter and Barbarian will beats rogue up? True, but why would a rogue fight someone who is better than them in fighting without some henchmen and traps set up? Welcome to the street, your rules don't apply here.
Barbarian have trap sense? Please, Rogue can disarm it, you can't do it as well as me!
Wizard coming to kill us all? Rogue will kill him one shot while his friends draw everyone's attention. Wait, it's a sorcerer? I will get my friends over there, there, there and there to kill you, how many fire balls do you have? We have many arrows. Oh, those are magical hushing arrows I got from the black market! So let's see how many of use here, at least 5 because I have "friends" for a price. Each of use shoot at least 2 arrows with a longbow, how good is your AC? Really good because you casting mage armor? Sorry to say but there are something we have called surprise round.
And that's how you play a rogue, you look out for your people, they watch out for you. Give them what they want, they will get your job done. =)
You know what rogue need the most? Is to understand their role. Instead of complaining their don't have enough BAB, maybe they should realize how OP they would be if they have that much BAB. It will mean that not only they can take out caster at ease with sneak attack, they can do that on fighter which they shouldn't. Through out the history of gaming, caster should beat fighter while they beat archer/rogue. Rogue/Ranger should beat caster. It's a balance that is always there. Rogue shouldn't be greedy and to beat monster with similar traits as a fighter.
What rogue are most suitable for is being a scout of the team with lots of connections.
You are not as good as Ninja in terms stealth and combat, but good enough to get the job done.
You may not be as welcoming as the Paladin in Town, but guess who gets the secret connections for info when we hits town? Rogue gets it! Oh! Bard can do that too with his diplomacy and Disguise! No, go play your lute, you bard. No one gets the underground connection except for rogue!
Fighter and Barbarian will beats rogue up? True, but why would a rogue fight someone who is better than them in fighting without some henchmen and traps set up? Welcome to the street, your rules don't apply here.
Barbarian have trap sense? Please, Rogue can disarm it, you can't do it as well as me!
Wizard coming to kill us all? Rogue will kill him one shot while his friends draw everyone's attention. Wait, it's a sorcerer? I will get my friends over there, there, there and there to kill you, how many fire balls do you have? We have many arrows. Oh, those are magical hushing arrows I got from the black market! So let's see how many of use here, at least 5 because I have "friends" for a price. Each of use shoot at least 2 arrows with a longbow, how good is your AC? Really good because you casting mage armor? Sorry to say but there are something we have called surprise round.
And that's how you play a rogue, you look out for your people, they watch out for you. Give them what...
Aaannddd absolutely nothing you said was helpful.
Social connections and roleplaying are not features of the rogue. Those are features of the individual player character and thus replicated by pretty much any class you choose to have a roguish bent with.
Telling people they don't know what they're doing neither solves a rogues mechanical issues nor presents a case with taking them over another class. This is particularly true if the best evidence you can present are short anecdotes that neither present mechanics proving your point nor show how the mechanics fit into your description.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And you broke the most important rule.
Everything he said was helpful, because it was on the role of the rogue and how to play them so as to overcome their supposed weaknesses, without asking for more/bab/damage sponges to come out of the rogue's hands.
He makes a very fine point on what the rogue counters (spellcasters), through surprise, through trickery, through ganking hard and dishonourably. Getting them when spells are done, taking them out when they aren't aware you are there. They can already pull this off unchanged, I've done it, that guy's done it, we've both seen it happen--this old rogue role is one of the reasons I didn't like the d6 hit die for formerly d4 spellcasters, it can make them a little safer against the rogue quick gank. Sneak attacking and one shotting a spellcaster is still possible (more likely with the surprise and then winning initiative and sneaking, or you could go two handed weapons + sneak, falchions work well for that.
His point was the mechanical issues are solved by brains, cunning and preparation. I have heard it said the rogue is the most normal of classes, the closest thing to a normal person, so you certainly have to be street smart and adjust as need be. Are rogues a full bab classe sitting somewhere in between fighter and barb as some sort of dex fighter with crazy damage? No, no they are not.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And you broke the most important rule.
Everything he said was helpful, because it was on the role of the rogue and how to play them so as to overcome their supposed weaknesses, without asking for more/bab/damage sponges to come out of the rogue's hands.
He makes a very fine point on what the rogue counters (spellcasters), through surprise, through trickery, through ganking hard and dishonourably. Getting them when spells are done, taking them out when they aren't aware you are there. They can already pull this off unchanged, I've done it, that guy's done it, we've both seen it happen--this old rogue role is one of the reasons I didn't like the d6 hit die for formerly d4 spellcasters, it can make them a little safer against the rogue quick gank. Sneak attacking and one shotting a spellcaster is still possible (more likely with the surprise and then winning initiative and sneaking, or you could go two handed weapons + sneak, falchions work well for that.
His point was the mechanical issues are solved by brains, cunning and preparation. I have heard it said the rogue is the most normal of classes, the closest thing to a normal person, so you certainly have to be street smart and adjust as need be. Are rogues a full bab classe sitting somewhere in between fighter and barb as some sort of dex fighter with crazy damage? No, no they are not.
Thank you for understanding my point. If you want to make the most out of rogue, you have to understand their roles. One of the rogue I saw, he did nothing in his entire campaign but stealth, get info, steal golds, buy things. Not evening fighting in combat when his team almost got killed. At the end of the campaign, he one shot the final boss who was a wizard in a tower where filled with traps and monster. He spent all his campaign to find out what he will face at the end, worked out how to draw the monster out of the tower where they will stuck at the bridge where the fighter can handle it.
In conclusion, I personally thing that you need to understand a rogue as a character as well as a player in order to make it work. If your emotionally can handle this and let it gets in your way logically, you will never get to make the most out of this class effectively.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Aaannddd absolutely nothing you said was helpful.
Social connections and roleplaying are not features of the rogue. Those are features of the individual player character and thus replicated by pretty much any class you choose to have a roguish bent with.
Telling people they don't know what they're doing neither solves a rogues mechanical issues nor presents a case with taking them over another class. This is particularly true if the best evidence you can present are short anecdotes that neither present mechanics proving your point nor show how the mechanics fit into your description.
First let's look at what I said, I said about stealth and combat and compare it with ninja. Rogue gets The same BAB as Ninja with the same sneak attack. No as good as ninja mechanically, but still better than anyone else, mechanically. That's what Fast Stealth. It's a must for rogue.
Second, Diplomacy compare with Paladin and Bard in terms of getting information. Rogue gets Charmer and Quick Disguise. Can a Paladin come into a bar asking where the underground lord is and could get out in time with disguise after rolling an 1? Don't think so, at least Charmer allows me to twice so I don't need to disguise even if one of my die got an 1. Not to mention Coax Information. And Bard should just sit down and play his lute.
Then it's fighter and Barbarian in combat. Seriously, it's like a rule of all game's nature to have brute beats specialist. You can't beat them in a fair fight, so don't bother. How else can they balance the game if rogue kills everything? If you want to fight them, hire a caster.
Next would be trap. Yes, Barbarian have trap sense, but does Barbarian have enough skill points to take Disable Device? No...
Last but not least, counter caster. It's your job as a specialist, to counter caster! You need to get a surprise around and deal sneak attack damage so you can hopefully kill him with one hit with vital strike. Do it before he gets his chance to cast any spell You don't need tons of BAB to hit a caster! The wizard is so old he can't dodge a tumbleweed. You are still young, you can't miss him! If you can't even get him with sneak attack, I'm afraid you shouldn't even play a rogue. But there are still back up plans because you are a rogue. Play your cards right and plan it ahead with your rogue talents. You should not lose to a caster.
And you broke the most important rule.
Everything he said was helpful, because it was on the role of the rogue and how to play them so as to overcome their supposed weaknesses, without asking for more/bab/damage sponges to come out of the rogue's hands.
He makes a very fine point on what the rogue counters (spellcasters), through surprise, through trickery, through ganking hard and dishonourably. Getting them when spells are done, taking them out when they aren't aware you are there. They can already pull this off unchanged, I've done it, that guy's done it, we've both seen it happen--this old rogue role is one of the reasons I didn't like the d6 hit die for formerly d4 spellcasters, it can make them a little safer against the rogue quick gank. Sneak attacking and one shotting a spellcaster is still possible (more likely with the surprise and then winning initiative and sneaking, or you could go two handed weapons + sneak, falchions work well for that.
His point was the mechanical issues are solved by brains, cunning and preparation. I have heard it said the rogue is the most normal of classes, the closest thing to a normal person, so you certainly have to be street smart and adjust as need be. Are rogues a full bab classe sitting somewhere in between fighter and barb as some sort of dex fighter with crazy damage? No, no they are not.
Thank you for understanding my point. If you want to make the most out of rogue, you have to understand their roles. One of the rogue I saw, he did nothing in his entire campaign but stealth, get info, steal golds, buy things. Not evening fighting in combat when his team almost got killed. At the end of the campaign, he one shot the final boss who was a wizard in a tower where filled with traps and monster. He spent all his campaign to find out what he will face at the end, worked out how to draw the monster out of the tower where they will stuck at the bridge where the fighter can handle it.
In conclusion, I personally thing...
Just asking for some more info, you mean he really did the prep work to defeat the evil wizard, let the fighter have his boss fight with the biggest monster around, and then as the wizard looked on and laughed at the fight below, snuck in and cut his throat? Checkmate! That is a really fine rogue there. A good example of how to use them, and it flew with the mechanics available.
I like thief rogues or skirmisher rogues, with low dpr overall, but which can organise the setup so that they shine in one round and then stay alive until the next round to shine comes around.
Aaannddd absolutely nothing you said was helpful.
Social connections and roleplaying are not features of the rogue. Those are features of the individual player character and thus replicated by pretty much any class you choose to have a roguish bent with.
Telling people they don't know what they're doing neither solves a rogues mechanical issues nor presents a case with taking them over another class. This is particularly true if the best evidence you can present are short anecdotes that neither present mechanics proving your point nor show how the mechanics fit into your description.
First let's look at what I said, I said about stealth and combat and compare it with ninja. Rogue gets The same BAB as Ninja with the same sneak attack. No as good as ninja mechanically, but still better than anyone else, mechanically. That's what Fast Stealth. It's a must for rogue.
Second, Diplomacy compare with Paladin and Bard in terms of getting information. Rogue gets Charmer and Quick Disguise. Can a Paladin come into a bar asking where the underground lord is and could get out in time with disguise after rolling an 1? Don't think so, at least Charmer allows me to twice so I don't need to disguise even if one of my die got an 1. Not to mention Coax Information. And Bard should just sit down and play his lute.
Then it's fighter and Barbarian in combat. Seriously, it's like a rule of all game's nature to have brute beats specialist. You can't beat them in a fair fight, so don't bother. How else can they balance the game if rogue kills everything? If you want to fight them, hire a caster.
Next would be trap. Yes, Barbarian have trap sense, but does Barbarian have enough skill points to take Disable Device? No...
Last but not least, counter caster. It's your job as a specialist, to counter caster! You need to get a surprise around and deal sneak attack damage so you can hopefully kill him with one hit with vital strike. Do it before he gets his chance to cast any spell You don't...
For future games I am stealing "the wizard is so old he can't dodge a tumbleweed". ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I decided to put this rogue up against a cr 5 monster, The Cyclops. The cyclops is pretty close to what paizo outlines as an average cr 5, so this battle should be around 50/50 for who wins.
I thought I’d compare this to the rogue I built on the top of pg 14. Keep in mind my goal here is to contribute to the team, not beat this foe single handedly. In this case, I know I have a barbarian in my group who is a DPR monster. I don’t want to out damage him, but contribute.
In this build I also haven’t even factored in any magic items. This build could also be optimized better, I’m guessing.
So we’re facing a Cyclops. Dirty Trick is a secondary tactic for me, so I’m most likely not going to use it against a giant. I’ll save that trick for when we encounter a wizard or other low CMD opponent.
My relevant base stats for this encounter are +8 to hit, CMB +9, and Acrobatics +14. He has a CMB of 22, and an AC of 19.
Regardless of Stealth or a Surprise round, I should be going before the Cyclops (which really doesn’t matter as he’ll probably spend a round closing the distance), but I’ll most likely be going before the barbarian.
I can successfully go through the Cyclops threat range with an 8 or better. Not an auto-success, but I should be successful. That sets up my flank (giving me and my barbarian friend +2 to attacks). I have to roll a 9 or better to hit, which should succeed for an average of 14 pts of damage. That’s just over 20% of the big guys hp, but I’m expecting the barbarian to do roughly 50 to 75%, and I just gave him another 10% chance to hit. Heck, I’m even expecting the rest of the group to do something.
For playing an AP, I’m looking forward to this. Or does this build appear to not contribute enough?
It's a decent grapple build, but unfortunately some of the mechanics rely on other classes.
now you have to consider if you took the exact same build and used fighter levels instead of rogue levels, what would it look like?
Odds are, better, if for no other reason then your BAB is better, and Weapon Training+ make sure your iteratives all hit.
======
A Rogue will hardly be overpowered with full BAB. Unlike all the other pure martial classes, he has nothing to raise his TH ability as part of his attack. Flanking, etc are all available to anyone who bothers.
All full BAB does is basically buy off his TWF penalty at 8th level, and give him a smallish bonus to hit thereafter. Without the likes of FE, Rage, or Weapon training/spec that are class abilities, he's still not going to catch up to the other martials, ESPECIALLY since his bonus damage is so conditional.
But it will mean, that when the stars are right, the dice gods align, and all those attacks sink home, it can be quite impressive. Probably not as impressive as the straight martial, but still nice.
==Aelryinth
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you used fighter levels, you wouldn't deal nearly as much damage. The original post mentioned that it was okay to dip one level into another class, so eh.
========
As for full BaB, it takes away the flavor. A rogue isn't a fighter/barbarian/ranger. His specialties lie elsewhere. He doesn't spend all of his time learning to fight like full BaB classes.
My only (but damning) complaint with the rogue is the lack of a viable ranged attack.
This turns out to be a severe problem in actual play.
My fix would be to allow the rogue to sneak attack any creature that is in melee with another creature and to remove the 30ft range limit on Sneak attacks.
Give me that and I have a playable character.
|
|
You can bypass those with feats and talents and magic items:
Check out sniper googles. SA at any range (20,000 gold).
Improved precise shot gets rid of the concealment and cover issue, and sniper's eye gets rid of the concealment chance as well.
Cover doesn't prevent you from sneak attacking, just concealment.
You can bypass those with feats and talents and magic items:
Doing this exasperates other problems though.
Aside from this one weakness, I find the rogue class to be fairly balanced. Investing feats, talents, and archetypes cover a critical area that EVERY OTHER CLASS CAN DO!!!!! FOR FREE. Is an issue.
Examples for viable ranged attack options:
Fighters: throwing weapons or bows
Paladin: throwing weapons or bows
Barbarians: throwing weapons
Alchemist: Bombs
Monk: throwing weapons
Bard: Inspire courage + bows
Druid/Cleric/Wizard/Sorcerer/Magus/With: spells
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@SiouL and DM Under the Bridge:
I stated right from the first post that anecdotes are useless. You can either use them to illustrate a point about the mechanics or to explain how a certain build or math works by describing real world play. They are worthless as an argument by themselves.
You two have spent four posts trying to tell people how it is with zero math backing you up. In truth everything posted can be done by literally every class in the game depending on the player behind it.
So please, people who have disagreed with me have made helpful contributions and expanded the overall knowledge base of this thread which was the point to begin with. Do better. Show some numbers.
All my hard work and no one notices or comments sniff sniff
I'm just really iffy on grapple builds.
They expose you to all sorts of evil shenanigans and though you can beat their CMD they may have CMB's or attacks more than big enough to scrape you off.
You really have to hope you can control the guy well enough to get the guy pinned in order to deal sneak attack damage.
@SiouL and DM Under the Bridge:
I stated right from the first post that anecdotes are useless. You can either use them to illustrate a point about the mechanics or to explain how a certain build or math works by describing real world play. They are worthless as an argument by themselves.
You two have spent four posts trying to tell people how it is with zero math backing you up. In truth everything posted can be done by literally every class in the game depending on the player behind it.
So please, people who have disagreed with me have made helpful contributions and expanded the overall knowledge base of this thread which was the point to begin with. Do better. Show some numbers.
First of all, if you looking for a class with pure number, play fighter. you get the highest number in a melee fight. It's almost pointless to play Pathfinder if all you want is number, it's not a maths game. It's a game with role-play, chance, tactic, and teamwork. Number falls under tactic and chance.
Second, here is the number. Rogue gets 10d6 sneak attack damage from class feature. Means you get 30 damage in average. Most casters have d6 for hit dice so they get average 60+ hp. Means your sneak attack will less than have of it's health. But here another boring maths, the rogue talent allows one to deal maximum damage with their Sneak attack. Means you deal 60 damage from sneak attack. It requires you to use a concealed weapon in order to use this talent. Rogue has 8+int for skill points, max out your Stealth, Disguise, doplomacy, bluff, Sleight of Hand, Acrobatic, Perception and Climb. Skill Mastery allow you to take 10 anytime. So if you have +5 int which you should at least that, you can have 8 skills that can take 10 anytime. Means you will have minimum 30 for the skills check without having to roll. Not rolling means no 1s, no fail. It's a big room when I climb up to the window, there is no where to hide. I got Hide in Plain Sight as my rogue talent! Don't need maths, I can 30 in your face! 30 my sleight of hand! And by this point, you should have +5-10 dex if you are truly playing a rogue. Means it's not 30, it's 35.
Most caster will have more than 60 hit points you say? Yes, that's where bleeding attack comes in, it take 10 damage at the beginning of their turn before they can even cast a spell. Yes, it's less damage than ninja's one, but we are not ninja! Now you deal 70 damage, but it's not the minimum. You have your weapons of choose with Greater vital strike. Now you if you have about +2 strength, which you should have a bit more than that, you will deal minimum 75 damage. But say he still survive this, we are not done yet. You are a rogue, poison is your best friend. You should had applied some Tears of Death on your weapon before hand, so he will have to roll Fort 22DC to not get paralyzed, 24DC with Deadly Cocktai. Even if they passed the save, you still have Master Strike which is a Fort DC 20+int to not sleep, paralyzed or killed. Say he 15 fort because he is a boss, It's still hard for him to pass fort saves in a row. So Rogue should be able to win no matter what when fighting against evil wizard.
You want to fight something else like a fighter or monster with lots of strength? Don't, know your role, maths said you can't. Rogue are best at single out a caster and finish him off.
And yet my rogue QQ at creatures floating 10ft in front of him just off a ledge.
And yet my rogue QQ at creatures floating 10ft in front of him just off a ledge.
Maybe hand crossbow with poison bolts would help. Only Rogue and Inquisitors are proficient with hand crossbow. With two weapon fighting, you can fire both in each hand with only -2 to attack roll. If you are able to get them with sneak attack, they are flat footed so the -2 wouldn't be so bad. Sneak attacks apply with range attack that is within 30 feet.
If you are able to get them with sneak attack
Yeah that's not happening.
If you are able to get them with sneak attackYeah that's not happening.
May I ask why?
Get items that gives you Greater Invisibility, take Hide In Plain Sight if you know the terrain before hand with Knowledge Local. It takes 5 days and 250 gold to retrain a rogue talent I believe, but could be worth it. It's - 20 to stealth check to keep your concealment, but you since you still have Greater Invisibility, it cancelled each other out. Which your at 10 stealth, you still have 35 stealth check. They will have to roll perception to beat it to not get flat footed for the next attack. Not sure if I'm right, but in theory it should work.
Get items that gives you Greater Invisibility, take Hide In Plain Sight if you know the terrain before hand with Knowledge Local. It takes 5 days and 250 gold to retrain a rogue talent I believe, but could be worth it. It's - 20 to stealth check to keep your concealment, but you since you still have Greater Invisibility, it cancelled each other out. Which your at 10 stealth, you still have 35 stealth check. They will have to roll perception to beat it to not get flat footed for the next attack. Not sure if I'm right, but in theory it should work.
Now do it at level 4.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now do it at level 4.
Let me add to my list of chars with easy range options
Ninja: Using Vanishing Trick (Su) and Invisible Blade (Su) make ranged sneak attacks. (Because 99% of ninja's grab these tricks anyways its basically free)
Shame that rogues aren't ninja's.
Now do it at level 4.
At level 4, you have 2d6 sneak attack. Have caster cast vanish on you, you have 4 rounds to reach there, sneak attack with poison. If no caster, you can always buy a ward and use it with Use Magic Device. With bleeding attack, it takes another 2 damage every time it begin it's turn. It needs 15 DC heal check to stop the bleeding and it is a standard action so it lose one of its turn to attack already. If it doesn't make the heal check, it will bleed 2 damage again next round. So if they try to attack instead of healing, you can just total defence and watch them bleed to death because you have decent Dex and Armor class. It should have much hit point for a level 4 encounter. So you should be fine. If it has high hit point, you have wasted it enough standard action for the team to finish it off. So don't need to bother with it.
Yes, ninja is better than Rogue in Combat, but that's what they are for. They are like Assassin but more damage instead of slaying ability. Assassin are great at killing one single target once per day.
At level 4, you have 2d6 sneak attack. Have caster cast vanish on you, you have 4 rounds to reach there, sneak attack with poison. If no caster, you can always buy a ward and use it with Use Magic Device. With bleeding attack, it takes another 2 damage every time it begin it's turn. It needs 15 DC heal check to stop the bleeding and it is a standard action so it lose one of its turn to attack already. If it doesn't make the heal check, it will bleed 2 damage again next round. So if they try to attack instead of healing, you can just total defence and watch them bleed to death because you have decent Dex and Armor class. It should have much hit point for a level 4 encounter. So you should be fine. If it has high hit point, you have wasted it enough standard action for the team to finish it off. So don't need to bother with it.
Now do it at level 4.
Alrighty.
Now.
Present a build that will take you from level 1 to 20. Explain how it works under your philosophy.
And then explain what it contributes that, say, an alchemist/bard/ranger/inquisitor/ninja can't in a better way.
If no caster, you can always buy a ward and use it with Use Magic Device.
Sorry to tell you that, but Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is not a standard in all campaigns...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I came to this thread late, and please forgive me if what I have to say was already mentioned in the 17+ pages of thread that I have absolutely no interest in reading...
...that being said, there are two distinct lines of reasoning that have to be explored here, interestingly enough, neither have to be explored very far.
The question is whether or not the OP is referring to "Organized Play" or "Actual Table-Top Role-Playing". (And the two are not only "different", but they are "diametrically opposed"...you absolutely cannot do one if you are doing the other. This statement is beyond logical contravention.)
If we are talking about "Organized Play", then of course the Rogue will never work, because Organized Play itself does not work. I have never understood why Organized Play is even a thing in the 21st century, what with all the MMO's that exist...why do something with dice and pencils that World of Warcraft has done so much better with computers and actual graphics?
If we are talking about "Actual Table-Top Role-Playing", then the Rogue works just fine, and it isn't at all a question of mechanics, it's a question of artistry, imagination, and story-building. A good Rogue player understands how to play a Rogue, and a good DM knows how to challenge (and how NOT to challenge) a Rogue...and if they are BOTH really role-playing, they will be constantly exploring new ways of overcoming those constraints through imagination and creativity.
-Edit-
Obviously this answer isn't "helpful", because I didn't include a list of numbers and abbreviations...but then, it wasn't meant to be "helpful", it was meant to be "edifying" (look it up). I have no doubt that I failed, but for the sake of a (dying) art, I had to try.
Cool. Though I think your problem won't be solved by bringing it up in an optimization thread.
Because honestly I don't feel like getting into a debate about cooperative storytelling and what differentiates an actual game that requires mechanics versus freeform storytelling where the rules are superfluous in this particular place. Nor Stormwind Fallacy for that matter.
If you used fighter levels, you wouldn't deal nearly as much damage. The original post mentioned that it was okay to dip one level into another class, so eh.
========
As for full BaB, it takes away the flavor. A rogue isn't a fighter/barbarian/ranger. His specialties lie elsewhere. He doesn't spend all of his time learning to fight like full BaB classes.
giving a rogue full BAB puts him slightly behind the TH/DMG curve of a martial bard, and further behind a Dervish build.
The rogue has NO bonuses to hit in his class...no smite, weapon bond, favored enemy, weapon training or weapon spec. He will never catch a devoted martial character.
What he will do is be slightly better then an unbuffed cleric. And a rogue has NO MAGIC intrinsic to his class...certainly he should be better at fighting then a spellcasting class is. Because they fight as good as he does, but spend their time spellcasting, too. The bard even has the skillz...it is blatantly unfair that they can fight as well as a rogue.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rogue has NO bonuses to hit in his class...no smite, weapon bond, favored enemy, weapon training or weapon spec. He will never catch a devoted martial character.
And it's here where rogue talents are mostly lacking and/or unhelpful.
Second, here is the number. Rogue gets 10d6 sneak attack damage from class feature. Means you get 30 damage in average. Most casters have d6 for hit dice so they get average 60+ hp.Hi! You are making a post by posting numbers! It is important to post numbers that are actually true.
Wizards built well have a high con score, usually put their favoured class into hit points, and take toughness! Plus being able to craft big con belts, means they often have a very respectable hp pool.
Since you are referencing 10d6, that is a level 19/20 rogue. I made a Standard wizard who has 242 hitpoints!
I have seen a lot of people say martial characters can kill wizards no problem! Well, here is your chance, tell me how your rogue deals with Izzy Done Yet
Belt of physical perfection +6 on a wizard? Seriously? What I said above have not even mention anything powerful magic items at all. Try take away all those items you have with no spell active? Also, how many buy point is that? I assume we going for 20 because we agreed on 20.
As for build, I can't think of a good reason why I would give out my build as I do not feel any respect in here for rogue. No one even care to see that rogue doesn't beat anyone at everything, it just able to do many things that other class can do while staying in one class. Also I get the feeling everyone just attack on whoever try to point out rogue is a decent class while they don't have the gut to email customer.service@paizo.com and make a formal complain. I could be wrong, but the tone I can was very non-welcoming. So why should I give out my precious one and only rogue build I have? I only played one rogue, I don't want anyone to take his build. Not with the lack of respect here...