Explain to me psionics.


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La'Vantis Tuen wrote:

Well, I'd personally like to say 'Thank You' to the OP. Seriously, it was awesome that your actions brought the actual writer out to make all of those clarifications. I know it's not too terribly rare, but to have them come and make 5 points... excellent!!!

You are quite welcome. :)


It really is great to have you here helping out, Stormhierta.

Sczarni

Pointing out what they can't do doesn't mean they aren't incredibly strong and versatile without preparation.

Quote:
So if you build that Psion with mostly energy powers that are equivalent to 50+ powers, you're not teleporting, flying, dominating, charming, scrying or shapeshifting. Yourself, or others. That is one of the biggest costs to the perceived flexibility of energy powers.

So what about the issue that every spell is always effective at every level? Look at sorc guides, they constantly constantly point towards spells lvl 1-2 as making sure they are useful later because as you lvl they are basically worthless to you in a fight... no true for psions as now those lvl 1s 2s can be effectively any lvl you want and their DCs by and large auto scale with it, without any feat expenditure.

Saying they aren't strong is an understatement to psionics in general. Every class that they mimic, they do it either as well or better, or with less preparation required.

The only comparison you can pull out and trot around is the wizard and their precious versatility, but you pull it out in a vacuum, declare them the most versatile, point out the limitations of psionics...

So do me a favor, explain to me just how versatile you can make one, not how restricted they are tell me just how broad a set problems they can solve.... on the fly.

-edit- show me a optimized one, show me one built to be as versatile as possible.


lantzkev wrote:
So what about the issue that every spell is always effective at every level? Look at sorc guides, they constantly constantly point towards spells lvl 1-2 as making sure they are useful later because as you lvl they are basically worthless to you in a fight... no true for psions as now those lvl 1s 2s can be effectively any lvl you want and their DCs by and large auto scale with it, without any feat expenditure.

Many sorcerer spells scale too, and without any investment. Your shocking grasp scales up to 5D6 for example, and your fireball 10D6, and battering blast only scales to 5D6 but continually gets more attacks. Mostly blasty spells mind you. With one feat they can heighten on the go and change the DC of anything at the cost of spell slots and some action economy.

lantzkev wrote:
Saying they aren't strong is an understatement to psionics in general. Every class that they mimic, they do it either as well or better, or with less preparation required.

Where do you get this from? Do you have a base for these claims? Have you looked through the books and played with one or is this just something that your stating without personal experience.

They aren't mimicking classes, they are a class of their own. They've been around for a while and they've changed a lot over the years.


Stormhierta wrote:
La'Vantis Tuen wrote:

Well, I'd personally like to say 'Thank You' to the OP. Seriously, it was awesome that your actions brought the actual writer out to make all of those clarifications. I know it's not too terribly rare, but to have them come and make 5 points... excellent!!!

You are quite welcome. :)

While I have your attention...

Can I just tell you how much I LOVE your version of the Psionic Warrior!!!

I made one of my favorite characters ever!!! it was for an Epic 6 game, and I never felt so epic!! ( not even with my 20th level wizard)

I haven't really looked at most of the classes that you don't mirror 3.5, but the ones that do we're done very well, very eloquent!

thank you and whoever you worked with for being awesome!


2 people marked this as a favorite.
lantzkev wrote:

Pointing out what they can't do doesn't mean they aren't incredibly strong and versatile without preparation.

Quote:
So if you build that Psion with mostly energy powers that are equivalent to 50+ powers, you're not teleporting, flying, dominating, charming, scrying or shapeshifting. Yourself, or others. That is one of the biggest costs to the perceived flexibility of energy powers.

So what about the issue that every spell is always effective at every level? Look at sorc guides, they constantly constantly point towards spells lvl 1-2 as making sure they are useful later because as you lvl they are basically worthless to you in a fight... no true for psions as now those lvl 1s 2s can be effectively any lvl you want and their DCs by and large auto scale with it, without any feat expenditure.

Saying they aren't strong is an understatement to psionics in general. Every class that they mimic, they do it either as well or better, or with less preparation required.

The only comparison you can pull out and trot around is the wizard and their precious versatility, but you pull it out in a vacuum, declare them the most versatile, point out the limitations of psionics...

So do me a favor, explain to me just how versatile you can make one, not how restricted they are tell me just how broad a set problems they can solve.... on the fly.

-edit- show me a optimized one, show me one built to be as versatile as possible.

We made our rules freely available at D20PFSRD.com (so there isn't even a need to buy a book/PDF, even though we highly appreciate the support). Look at how many of those powers are augmentable before making assumptions that all powers are augmentable, or increase their save DCs. Look at how many of those are restricted to a certain subclass.

We did a 18 month open playtest. Stuff was so thoroughly playtested it sometimes made me weep from how everything was tested again and again. Our playtesting is still openly available at our forums. Feel free to peruse this tome of information. That way, you can determine if you feel our playtesting and balancing fits your view of how things should be.

And should you find a problematic combination, strange rule or unclear passage, please take it to our forums. HUNDREDS of people have done so before and we have taken apart the problem, polished it and put the rules back together in a better way. If its broken, we'll fix it.

Best regards
- Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press


La'Vantis Tuen wrote:

While I have your attention...

Can I just tell you how much I LOVE your version of the Psionic Warrior!!!

I made one of my favorite characters ever!!! it was for an Epic 6 game, and I never felt so epic!! ( not even with my 20th level wizard)

I haven't really looked at most of the classes that you don't mirror 3.5, but the ones that do we're done very well, very eloquent!

thank you and whoever you worked with for being awesome!

Thankyou! Comments like these and knowing that what we made is being used and played all over the world, is what makes writing it so satisfying!

I owe alot to my partner, Jeremy Smith, who does some of the heaviest lifting in mechanics for Dreamscarred Press.

We're happy you like it!

- Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press


Azten wrote:
It really is great to have you here helping out, Stormhierta.

Thanks!

I think it is important to clear up a misunderstanding that has come about because something I wrote might have been unclear. I hope my answers have been helpful not only to the OP but to others looking for the same answers in the future.

Best regards
- Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press


I've got to say, this guy sounds a lot like an old DM I had back when I was playing 3.0. He was absolutely sure that psionics in 3.0 would be severely overpowered because of his prior experience with the horrors of AD&D psionics. He barely thumbed through my copy of the Psionics Handbook before ruling them overpowered and disallowing them.

In another game where I was allowed to use them and he was just a player, he did nothing but complain. I could get my butt kicked in a fight, but if I didn't die or risk death it was because I was overpowered. If I did go down, it was because I didn't know what I was doing since psionics should have been able to handle everything. Eventually he stopped openly complaining about it, but he never did take the time to understand the system and would just ignore everything he was told and what he saw in play. Up until I quit playing with him he'd never allow psionics in his games because "they're so easy to abuse." But if he'd have ever actually taken the time to read the rules himself, he'd have known that they were no worse about that than anything else in 3.x.

So my suggestion for the OP - Read the rules and come to know them in their entirety. You don't have to memorize them, but you do need to have at least a passing familiarity with them. Don't cherry pick and don't assume things just to validate your own preconceived notions about what is or isn't possible. You don't even have to pay a cent to learn the rules, since they're available over at D20PFSRD. Not being willing to learn the rules while still decrying them and challenging other people to prove things to you is pointless and paints you in a bad light. Especially when those rules are readily and freely available.


lantzkev wrote:
Pointing out what they can't do doesn't mean they aren't incredibly strong and versatile without preparation.

Who was making that argument. Psions are a good class, otherwise we would not like them, but they are still not as versatile as wizard or even a sorcerer.

Quote:
So if you build that Psion with mostly energy powers that are equivalent to 50+ powers, you're not teleporting, flying, dominating, charming, scrying or shapeshifting. Yourself, or others. That is one of the biggest costs to the perceived flexibility of energy powers.

So what about the issue that every spell is always effective at every level? Look at sorc guides, they constantly constantly point towards spells lvl 1-2 as making sure they are useful later because as you lvl they are basically worthless to you in a fight... no true for psions as now those lvl 1s 2s can be effectively any lvl you want and their DCs by and large auto scale with it, without any feat expenditure.

Saying they aren't strong is an understatement to psionics in general. Every class that they mimic, they do it either as well or better, or with less preparation required.

The only comparison you can pull out and trot around is the wizard and their precious versatility, but you pull it out in a vacuum, declare them the most versatile, point out the limitations of psionics...

So do me a favor, explain to me just how versatile you can make one, not how restricted they are tell me just how broad a set problems they can solve.... on the fly.

-edit- show me a optimized one, show me one built to be as versatile as possible.

The ability augment powers has to be build in because they are not allowed to choose as many. On top of that just by being forces into you area you lose a lot of other really good powers.

A wizard or sorcerer does not have that restriction. Now if a psion did not have this restriction in place, you would have a much stronger point, but that is not the case. The number of times I wanted power X to round out a psion, but I could not because I was restricted can not be counted. Since you are the one aruging against those of us with real experience, and not just theory crafting, then you build the psion that is as versatile as a wizard or sorcerer. The reason you keep getting told what they can not do, is because you keep trying to give them more credit than they deserve, while not once saying how they are restricted, so we have to do it for you.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

Wow.

Just now seeing this thread.

Not really sure where to start, or if I even need to - looks like Andreas covered a ton of ground.

:)

Lantzkev - I think you are putting words in the creators mouths - since I am one of them (although I have to give credit that it is the updated version of 3.5 psionics which was written by someone else).

Our goal was not to make the psion "weaker".

It was to make them just as viable as wizards without making the wizard obsolete.

There are places where a psion will outshine a wizard (versatility, resource management).

There are places where a wizard will outshine a psion (larger toolbox, devastating if he can have any level of preparation, free scaling of spells, his spells per day converted into power points puts him ahead of the psion in terms of resources, etc.)

The goal was never to be "subpar" to the wizard. Anyone who says that is either ill-informed or wrong.


"Parent" Class?
What Parent class?

edit: Jeremy, I think most of us understand that if the goal HAD been to make 'a weaker wizard', we'd have a wizard, just as broken, and then artificially nerfed in a few points. Psion doesn't play like that.

Now, some people do, and this is where the arguing came along, believe that it is somewhow more versatile AND more powerful AND better-scaling than a First-Tier Full-Caster. That much isn't true. Not a problem since even those classes shouldn't be that high up in the fist place, just sayin.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed some posts and the replies to them. Accusations of trolling are not OK.

Sczarni

What I'm saying is that telling someone who has no professed exerptise in it, specifically when they are asking for clarification, and then telling them to optimize something is entirely foolish.

Telling them they aren't allowed to discuss their opinion based off of their experience is also ridiculous. Discounting them because they can't/won't make a character for you to shred apart with your own expertise.

Quote:
Your arguing that you know and we are wrong, then say you have no idea...

I've seen enough to realize how powerful 34 different powers at lvl 20 can be incredibly versatile specifically with how those powers are able to scale and serve multiple purposes.

I'll tell you what though, I'll make a wilder and a psion, and who knows what else this weekend if I can work it in and see what I come up with.

I know for a fact though, specifically when folks were addressing the weaknesses... psions are not as weak as its creators or it's advocates make out. In practice they are always as strong as their "parent" class.


lantzkev wrote:

What I'm saying is that telling someone who has no professed exerptise in it, specifically when they are asking for clarification, and then telling them to optimize something is entirely foolish.

Telling them they aren't allowed to discuss their opinion based off of their experience is also ridiculous. Discounting them because they can't/won't make a character for you to shred apart with your own expertise.

If you can optimize a caster you can optimize a psion. Most powers are also available as spells or a close approximation. Now there are some spell that are not available as powers, and some spell/powers are only available to certain psion disciplines. That is part of why I wanted you to build one. Once you start going I want X Y and Z, and you realize they are part of different disciplines that you can't have, the point will be more clear. I can't speak for the others, but if you post a build and choose a bad feat or strategy I will help you correct it. The point is not to make psions look weak. The point is that I want you to know what you are actually dealing with. That will stop the theory-crafting or maybe help stop it because as good as it looks to you on paper, in a real game, it does not play like that.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

Not sure how my post got to be before the post I was replying to...

cest la vie


lantzkev wrote:
I'll tell you what though, I'll make a wilder and a psion, and who knows what else this weekend if I can work it in and see what I come up with.

That's really not a bad idea to make a psion on your own. It can help you explore the system, classes, look at spells, and gain an understanding of a lot of things. I know there are a few classes I've gotten to know a lot better seeing in action or even building myself, experience goes a long way.

Good luck with it! Hope you have fun.(though not everyone has fun creating characters)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Jeremy Smith wrote:

Not sure how my post got to be before the post I was replying to...

cest la vie

don't you mean deja vu?


Once you go Psionic, you'll never do Arcane again...

The coolness factor just blows mages out of the water.

Just sayin'.


Been having an absolute blast with an Aegis Gunner.

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