As for the wilder/psion comment, it is not just about handling opponents, but situations. The wilder is not handling any situation even if it is good in combat. The psion also has to make sure he has the power chosen, and you are acting like the psion has access to all of his powers at once. Yeah I know a wizard might not have every spell on his class list either, but he has the possibility at least.That's kind of the thing I'm mentioning, the wilder is like a sorcerer, they try and cover all their bases, and the limited spells/powers known doesn't hurt the wilder as much as it could because of how versatile every single power is that they select. There's no need for energy admixture to my knowledge, because you can change the element every time you manifest (unless I'm wrong)
Yeah you can change the energy every time, BUT sorcerers much like wizards are not made to blast things so the wilder is still not competing with the sorcerer unless it is a blasting contest, and even though the wilder is better made to naturally blast, I dont know if it can hold up against a sorcerer focused on blasting.
I almost forgot-->Yeah the wilder can change the element for blasting every time.
Even sorcerers, who are advised to not try and pretend and be a poor man's wizard have enough spells to cover a variety of situations. That wilder is not going to do that with 11 powers.
PS: I am replying to this again because I misread this paragraph the first time.
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If they have the power they can do all of these things, but just like the sorcerer they have to choose carefully. The weilder knows 11 powers at level 20. That is not even a comparison.
they can know more with feats, but the point is that their 11 spells known are equally effective at all lvls. A sorcerer may know flame hands, cause fear, grease, sleep, and magic missile, but only one or two of those (magic missile, and flamehands/grease maybe) are at all relevant or useful (and not that useful!)
If a sorcerer wants to know flame wall, ice wall, wall of light, etc... he has to spend one of his 5 known slots on those variations. A wilder knows all those variations in one power... and it scales the more points he puts into it.
I agree that the powers scale. That was never in contention.
My point is that those 11 powers wont be able to solve as many problems or offer as many solutions as sorcerer's spells assuming the sorcerer chooses a wide variety of spells. I bring that up because you compared them, and then said it did not hurt the wilder as much. I understand that you may have a power that duplicates random low level spell X, and then you can augment it to duplicate random higher level spell Y, so you dont have to pick up 2 different powers. However, but most sorcerers are not going to pick up dominate person and dominate monster as an example. If they do pick up the better version they would just trade the lesser one out for something else.
Small note. There is a very important difference between the Wilder and the Sorcerer which I only noticed recently.
Wilders get 3/4 BAB.
So... they're not quite sorcerers. They get 9 levels of casting, but only a third the number of powers known as for a Psion. They're not quite gishes, as they don't have many combat abilities (but there's a battle wilder archetype).
I think that Psions are Wizards and Sorcerers rolled into one. Wilders look and talk like Sorcerers- they're charisma-based, their powers are all about emotion- but they're not Psionic Sorcerers.
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that's exactly what they are though, limited focus, charisma based etc.. BAB isn't what really define sorcerers or wizards, it's a hallmark for sure, but not the point. the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is spontaneous casting and limited spells known.
Wilder/Psion? they both are spontaneous, but the difference is in spells known. (all psionic characters are spontaneous to my knowledge)
While Psionics in general is well balanced, there are a couple of powers that are really problematic. The biggest one is Psychic Reformation, especially at the fully augmented level. For 13 pp, you can reset all your skills, feats and powers, with no penalty. You can do it for your friends too. (Your fighter specialized in greatsword, but found an artifact spear? We can fix that for you.) It makes you incredibly flexible, not only in powers but in skills too. Getting ready to face someone in a weaving contest? 13 power points later - bam, you (or your ally) now has craft (weaving) at max ranks.
that's exactly what they are though, limited focus, charisma based etc.. BAB isn't what really define sorcerers or wizards, it's a hallmark for sure, but not the point. the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard is spontaneous casting and limited spells known.
Wilder/Psion? they both are spontaneous, but the difference is in spells known. (all psionic characters are spontaneous to my knowledge)
Psions are more like sorcerers.
A wilder is definitely not a sorcerer though. If the 3.5 battlemage was still around it(wilder) might compare to that since that class was made around blasting, but it was not good at too many other things.
Bards also cast spontaneously, but they are not sorcerers so spontaneous casting is not enough to compare them.
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I got to reading the "psionic are op except when they're not" he does a good job of laying out exactly where alot of the OPness is. I don't feel he's correct in his assessment that the ones he pointed out are "ok"
I'm also really peeved about disentegrates damage escalating the way it does. Unlike all the other damage spells out there, that one really really does alot of damage and when you suffer enough to get to zero, there's no con buffer and no ability to ressurect except through true miracle and wish.
I'm glad you're willing to take that stance and dismiss someone explainging an example where they are clearly and objectively stronger in a specific case and just handwaving it as "illegal" and that they are clearly balanced because you say so.
Are you claiming an (according to you) potentially level 30 character (but you don't know) dealing 19d6 damage (just 66 damage avg) on a successful save with a spell that requires a touch attack is "clearly and objectively stronger"? Do you know what a focused level 30 wizard can do without a save allowed? Or even if we assume they're just about level 18 or so...
So, that disintegrate had:
Touch attack, 77 avg damage. Save for 66 damage instead.
Meanwhile, a level 18 wizard could have an rod-maximized polar ray:
Touch attack, 108 damage and 4 Dexterity drain. No save.
And that's without even focusing on blasting or novaing and assuming just a level 18 caster...
If we assume it actually IS a level 30 character, we're looking at an intensified, maximized polar ray, doing 180 damage instead. And that's assuming they don't actually get any kind of power above level 20, apart from increased caster level.
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I'm glad you're willing to take that stance and dismiss someone explainging an example where they are clearly and objectively stronger in a specific case and just handwaving it as "illegal" and that they are clearly balanced because you say so.
Are you claiming an (according to you) potentially level 30 character (but you don't know) dealing 19d6 damage (just 66 damage avg) on a successful save with a spell that requires a touch attack is "clearly and objectively stronger"? Do you know what a focused level 30 wizard can do without a save allowed? Or even if we assume they're just about level 18 or so...
So, that disintegrate had:
Touch attack, 77 avg damage. Save for 66 damage instead.
Meanwhile, a level 18 wizard could have an rod-maximized polar ray:
Touch attack, 108 damage and 4 Dexterity drain. No save.
And that's without even focusing on blasting or novaing and assuming just a level 18 caster...
If we assume it actually IS a level 30 character, we're looking at an intensified, maximized polar ray, doing 180 damage instead. And that's assuming they don't actually get any kind of power above level 20, apart from increased caster level.
You are really pulling for that...
we established he was doing it wrong, that the augmenting shouldn't have gone to the failed save but to the succesful save... which means that ray 36d6 ie no feats etc.
Although if you want to look at it with feats, he could maximise it for two power points at lvl 20 and it'd be 49d6 and that's without anything but a singular feat.
Although if you want to look at it with feats, he could maximise it for two power points at lvl 20 and it'd be 49d6 49d6 ⇒ (4, 3, 4, 2, 3, 5, 2, 2, 3, 1, 3, 2, 4, 3, 3, 5, 2, 5, 3, 5, 4, 3, 6, 3, 6, 2, 1, 5, 4, 3, 4, 4, 6, 6, 1, 4, 5, 3, 2, 1, 4, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 1, 4, 6) = 169 and that's without anything but a singular feat.
Guess you meant empowered. Maximize does full damage at -4 CL.
I'm really starting to wonder if lantzkey is completely unaware that the disintegration psionic power is a carbon copy of the Disintegrate magic spell.
For reference, a Level 20 wizard could throw out an empowered disintegrate that does 60d6 damage on a failed save. Or use a metamagic rod to toss out an empowered + maximized disintegrate for 20d6 + 240 damage.
If they have the power they can do all of these things, but just like the sorcerer they have to choose carefully. The weilder knows 11 powers at level 20. That is not even a comparison.they can know more with feats, but the point is that their 11 spells known are equally effective at all lvls. A sorcerer may know flame hands, cause fear, grease, sleep, and magic missile, but only one or two of those (magic missile, and flamehands/grease maybe) are at all relevant or useful (and not that useful!)
If a sorcerer wants to know flame wall, ice wall, wall of light, etc... he has to spend one of his 5 known slots on those variations. A wilder knows all those variations in one power... and it scales the more points he puts into it.
The sorcerer also has scaling. The D6's for his spells grows on par with his level. He can throw out 3 fireballs at level 10 that do 10D6 and only eat up 3 3rd level spell slots. If the Psionic wanted to do a Psionic fireball of some sort, he could fire off 3 level of those at level 10 too! but unless he pays twice as many power points they'll still only do 5D6.
To my knowledge a psionic character isn't going to have a spell that does grease, sleep, magic missile, cause fear, and flame hands. They aren't even going to have a spell that does both. They might have a sleep that turns into deep slumber and beyond though, but that's going to cost them power points to use that higher level ability.
11 powers likely aren't going to add up to 36, though it does depend on where you cut it. The ability to use other elements is awesome, but the sorcerer can do that too with metamagic(+1). Usually powers don't become something totally different, they change numbers, they can remove penalties you suffer, they can make one spell be a whole line of powers(which is part of the reason psionics are awesome), they can increase the casting time, and they can change what type of creature they affect. They don't however turn a single energy ray into an explosive of any element they like or a fantastic problem solving any tool, they make the energy ray do more damage and with an action can change the type(unless they are a keneticist).
Small note. There is a very important difference between the Wilder and the Sorcerer which I only noticed recently.
Wilders get 3/4 BAB.
So... they're not quite sorcerers. They get 9 levels of casting, but only a third the number of powers known as for a Psion. They're not quite gishes, as they don't have many combat abilities (but there's a battle wilder archetype).
I think that Psions are Wizards and Sorcerers rolled into one. Wilders look and talk like Sorcerers- they're charisma-based, their powers are all about emotion- but they're not Psionic Sorcerers.
One of the nice things about wilder's is that they're versatile. They have 3/4 BAB, can wear armor and use weapons, and they can choose from a pretty big list of powers. In 3.5 there were variant character choices you could make that could help customize them, and in pathfinder they get to pick a surge type. They don't have many spells to use in the long run, but you can really make it count and surging while in combat can buff you and your bros, make you rage, do all kinds of crazy stuff! I like to think of them more akin to clerics myself, because full casting + 3/4 BAB and martial prowess. You can build them to be a blasty kind of casty, a social butterfly who dominates, or a gish or rages in the battlefield with his surges(and real rage and rage powers with one of his surge choices!)
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Hi!
The name's Andreas Rönnqvist and I'm one of the two authors of Psionics Unleashed and co-owner of Dreamscarred Press.
Since I see some form of confusion here on some of the rules, lets go through them.
1. If we are, somehow, unclear that the cost for augmenting a power is part of the cost of manifesting a power, allow me to make that perfectly clear: The cost of a power, which is limited by manifester levels, is the total cost (base cost + augmentation cost). Can't get any more clear than that. We will take the feedback towards clarifying this in future printings of Psionics Unleashed and Ultimate Psionics.
2. Questions were raised about the power of the Dread class. Unlike many other classes that can do their "thing" regardless, the Dread depends and works with fear-effects. Since immunity to fear comes online pretty early, it would shut down the class. Based on Paizo's design of the Antipaladin, we gave the Dread the ability to ignore immunity to fear.
2b. In case this was also somehow not clear, explicitly ignoring immunity to fear does not add the ability to ignore other immunities (such as mind-affecting immunities or being mindless). So, as clearly as possible - ignoring "Immunity to Fear" only allows the Dread to ignore that specific ability, no others.
3. Remember that spending X power points is the equivalent of casting an X/2 spell level spell. So if you spend 14 power points augmenting a 1st level power, it is equivalent to a 7th level spell. And should be compared to that.
4. While the number of spell SLOTS available to a Wizard is equal to the number of powers a Psion knows, there is a difference. On day 1, the Wizard can prepare 36 spells, just like the Psion. On day 2, the Wizard can completely change his focus and prepare 36 different spells from day 1, while the Psion still knows the exact same ones. Know you are going to face Undead, prepare the right spells, but be stuck with the same powers.
Were there any more SPECIFIC questions about Psionics? I'd love to help! Also, we recommend getting the book itself to get a complete understanding of how to play the game using psionics. An SRD is a good resource for rules, but just like reading the Core book makes it easier, so does Psionics Unleashed make it easier.
If you want to discuss this with more people well versed in Psionics, we can also recommend our forums at www.dreamscarredpress.com to get more views on a question.
BTW, the Fear Made Flesh archetype is best compared to an Alchemist with Feral Mutagen. :)
Best regards
- Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press
Changing Energy in Energy Powers is a Kinetisist special. Others learn not "energy ball" but "Energy Ball<Fire>" or "Energy Ball<Sonic>".
Sort of. Here's the relevant text.
Energy Powers: Many psionic powers deal damage of a certain type of energy, with cold, electricity, fire, and sonic being the most common. For powers that have the choice of cold, electricity, fire, and sonic, the manifester must choose after he regains his psionic power points for the day which of these four energy types is his active energy. The manifester may choose to change which energy is his active energy by gaining psionic focus. If he is currently maintaining psionic focus, he may expend it as a free action and then gain psionic focus normally to choose a new energy type. The manifester need not maintain psionic focus to have an active energy type. Wilders may change their active energy type when performing a wild surge. Kineticists are exempt from this restriction and may freely choose the energy type at the time the power is manifest, so long as it is within the choices allowed by the power. He could not, for example, choose fire as his energy type when manifesting concussion blast, as the power does not allow a choice in energy types.
I got to reading the "psionic are op except when they're not" he does a good job of laying out exactly where alot of the OPness is. I don't feel he's correct in his assessment that the ones he pointed out are "ok"
I'm also really peeved about disentegrates damage escalating the way it does. Unlike all the other damage spells out there, that one really really does alot of damage and when you suffer enough to get to zero, there's no con buffer and no ability to ressurect except through true miracle and wish.
Disintegrate where it is by psionics are magic does 2d6 per manifester/caster level. In order to keep up with the magic version it had to be augmented that way, or do you just like disintegrate in either form?
Hi!
The name's Andreas Rönnqvist and I'm one of the two authors of Psionics Unleashed and co-owner of Dreamscarred Press.
Since I see some form of confusion here on some of the rules, lets go through them.
1. If we are, somehow, unclear that the cost for augmenting a power is part of the cost of manifesting a power, allow me to make that perfectly clear: The cost of a power, which is limited by manifester levels, is the total cost (base cost + augmentation cost). Can't get any more clear than that. We will take the feedback towards clarifying this in future printings of Psionics Unleashed and Ultimate Psionics.
The book spells that out clearly. Once I pointed that out the OP ddi not count my comment so I guess we agree on that.
The rest is something I will wait to see his replies for.
Good luck, Wraith. I'm still waiting for his reply on the lv1 wizard I posted. ;)
Not that I think it needs one, mind you.
Andreas, thank you very much for stepping in, much appreciated. I've always enjoyed psionics and am greatly enjoying the dread in particular, your clarifications are much appreciated.
I'm glad you're willing to take that stance and dismiss someone explainging an example where they are clearly and objectively stronger in a specific case and just handwaving it as "illegal" and that they are clearly balanced because you sa
You are really pulling for that...
we established he was doing it wrong, that the augmenting shouldn't have gone to the failed save but to the succesful save... which means that ray 36d6 ie 36d6 no feats etc.
Although if you want to look at it with feats, he could maximise it for two power points at lvl 20 and it'd be 49d6 49d6 and that's without anything but a singular feat.
Are you saying that if you successfully save against the disintegrate it deals 130 damage at level 18? Thats pretty good actually, not far from what an archer will put out.
But note that my example wasnt pushing it. It was one spell, one item. You could do SOOO much more damage with an optimized blaster.
And if your poibt is "an unoptimised psion is marginally better at blasting (only) than a non-optimized wizard" then all i can say is....oookay.
But have you looked at what blaster wizards can do with a bit of focus? Area damage over the hundreds after a successful save with no issues.
Also, if the added damage to disintegrate was notfor successful save but for failed save, which is implied i think, then its much less impressive. Yeah, you can do that empowered disintegrate at cl20 for 60d6 but meanwhile the wizard can do maximized, empowered disintegrate for 240+20d6.
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Also, if the added damage to disintegrate was notfor successful save but for failed save, which is implied i think, then its much less impressive. Yeah, you can do that empowered disintegrate at cl20 for 60d6 but meanwhile the wizard can do maximized, empowered disintegrate for 240+20d6.
It's highly unusual and against the pattern of game mechanics for something to basically do the same on a fail or success.... as we learned it was just the GM playing it wrong. I find psionics as a whole fairly well balanced, there's still some parts I think are just not good, that the sustainability of a wilder is amazing, even if they are a "one trick" pony, they will be as versatile as any blaster sorc if not more and can potentially never stop at all.
The dread class I feel is an archetype that gets too much. The "it doesn't ignore mindless immunities" etc clarification is good, but it needs to be in the d20pfsrd, or a FAQ note with it since that's where alot reference psionics, specifically when a GM is playing a game where he's allowed a character to play it but the gm doesn't own the books themselves....
And again, it doesn't indicate that ignores immune to fear only applies to a trait "immune to fear"
2. Questions were raised about the power of the Dread class. Unlike many other classes that can do their "thing" regardless, the Dread depends and works with fear-effects. Since immunity to fear comes online pretty early, it would shut down the class. Based on Paizo's design of the Antipaladin, we gave the Dread the ability to ignore immunity to fear.
there are many archetypes that are ineffective because of things that can occur in the game, letting a powerful ability such as fear go into a archetype that already specializes in it, and is indeed nearly impossible to fail at such a task at even +5 ECL or greater, is just a bit much.
4. While the number of spell SLOTS available to a Wizard is equal to the number of powers a Psion knows, there is a difference. On day 1, the Wizard can prepare 36 spells, just like the Psion. On day 2, the Wizard can completely change his focus and prepare 36 different spells from day 1, while the Psion still knows the exact same ones. Know you are going to face Undead, prepare the right spells, but be stuck with the same powers.
you're downplaying how versatile that 34 abilities known is.
If you did a survey of wizards, you'd find that few if any ever use much more than 34 different spells in their entire career, and that if they do those spells were easily substituted by one of 34 spells. Specifically when psionic spells can manifest as one of four different elements, now that 34 known is effectively 50+
And of course there's the issue of not needing to know what you're up against, and having a very deep well to spontaneously pull from.
personal experience can tell you this is most likely true even without a study.
Anecdotal evidence is biased and not the most reliable evidence in the world. I know I've seen some wizards use 12 and others use 50. Depended on the player and what they were trying to do. Same with sorcs, I've met sorcs who don't use half their list and others who buy scrolls because they just didn't have enough variety in life.
Great, now we have Schrodinger's Psion, who apparently knows all the disciplines simultaneously and can do it all at once.
Very nice.
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34 powers (not including how many act when enhanced as higher lvl spells, and also can cover any of four elements) is more than enough to handle anything a psion is capable of handling.
there maybe limitation of their spells, but I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that could name 50 different spells their wizards have actually used
It's highly unusual and against the pattern of game mechanics for something to basically do the same on a fail or success.... as we learned it was just the GM playing it wrong. I find psionics as a whole fairly well balanced, there's still some parts I think are just not good, that the sustainability of a wilder is amazing, even if they are a "one trick" pony, they will be as versatile as any blaster sorc if not more and can potentially never stop at all.
Nnnnnnoooooot so much. The blaster wilder gets basically one spell of each level as a blasting spell, plus a couple other 1st level spells. The Sorc gets one blasting spell per level, plus 4 other first level spells, 4 other second level spells, 3 other third level spells, 3 other fourth level spells, 3 other fifth level spells, 2 other sixth level spells, 2 other seventh level spells, 2 other eight level spells, and 2 other 9th level spells. Even if the wilder only takes two or three blasting spells, and relies on augmenting them to get different shapes and energy types, the sorc still has much more versatility in spells chosen than the wilder. This also includes what happens when the sorc and the wilder run into a target where blasting isn't the optimal choice, which comes up often.
The dread class I feel is an archetype that gets too much. The "it doesn't ignore mindless immunities" etc clarification is good, but it needs to be in the d20pfsrd, or a FAQ note with it since that's where alot reference psionics, specifically when a GM is playing a game where he's allowed a character to play it but the gm doesn't own the books themselves....
And again, it doesn't indicate that ignores immune to fear only applies to a trait "immune to fear"
I may be the only one here to feel this way, but I never felt it was ambiguous that it only applied strictly to immunity to fear. There's a reason that the Terror that makes it affect mind affecting immune creatures exists, too, which helps to dispel any lingering doubts of what it's supposed to apply to.
there are many archetypes that are ineffective because of things that can occur in the game, letting a powerful ability such as fear go into a archetype that already specializes in it, and is indeed nearly impossible to fail at such a task at even +5 ECL or greater, is just a bit much.
And there's a reason most people say you should avoid specializing a character around something that is a common immunity. Also, the dread is an entire class, not an archetype; archetypes have a bit more freedom in having things immune to them, but a base class does not have that option. Rogues are the only class that I can think of where a major class feature is largely ignored by a significant number of monsters, and most people agree that they are in sore shape (at best). Casters can use different spells (because any caster with a brain covers more than just their specialized type of spell, even if it's only a few other spells chosen). DSP wanted to avoid that kind of problem with their base classes, and I rightly agree with them on that.
you're downplaying how versatile that 34 abilities known is.
If you did a survey of wizards, you'd find that few if any ever use much more than 34 different spells in their entire career, and that if they do those spells were easily substituted by one of 34 spells. Specifically when psionic spells can manifest as one of four different elements, now that 34 known is effectively 50+
And of course there's the issue of not needing to know what you're up against, and having a very deep well to spontaneously pull from.
This is, by and large, no different than a sorcerer with a fair number of metamagic feats. The wizard can prepare a general list when they don't know what they're up against, but the sorcerer, psion, and (especially so) wilder have to make sure they know a general list to cover all their bases rather than be so specialized that they can't do anything when their preferred target doesn't show up to play, whereas the wizard can also specialize when they do know what's coming up. Psions have very strong versatility in the moment, but very weak preparation versatility. They're far on the sorcerer side of the sorc-wizard scale of versatility. This also means that they can't specialize their repertoire to the known enemy ahead of time beyond what they already have, which becomes increasingly common as you get higher level and have more access to scrying magic.
So yes, psionics and psionic classes can be powerful, but are certainly no more so than the classes already in the game.
but I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that could name 50 different spells their wizards have actually used
It's been a while since I played in a game featuring a wizard, but I think the last one did use about that amount of different spells during its career (ranging from level 1 to 20). Many of the more obscure spells were used when the wizard had time to prepare specifically for certain encounters, and the number of regularly-used spells would naturally be lower.
My current game has no wizards, but it might be interesting to note that at level 11, the oracle has used at least 26 different spells so far. It would surprise me if the same character at level 20 won't have used more than 50 different spells. With a wizard being less limited in their spell selection, when even a spontaneous caster is en route to reach that number, a wizard would likely surpass it easily.
34 powers (not including how many act when enhanced as higher lvl spells, and also can cover any of four elements) is more than enough to handle anything a psion is capable of handling.
You'd be surprised. Besides, that's a subjective goal and ideal. Some people think fighters have everything they need. At epic level any caster is going to be able to do a lot really.
there maybe limitation of their spells, but I'd be hard pressed to find anyone that could name 50 different spells their wizards have actually used
Do I need to dig out my old spell list for my collegiate wizard? Four spells per level in 3.5 and access to dragon magic, spell compendium, complete arcane/mage and BOED gave me a pretty healthy selection! Never seemed like I had enough. Gave the barbarian four arms, polymorph, buffs, haste/slow, teleport, shot lazers of blinding light, Guard dog, charm, did all sorts of crazy stuff with that guy. He had one buff up per level so he was always flying, armored, immune to crits, etc.
Great, now we have Schrodinger's Psion, who apparently knows all the disciplines simultaneously and can do it all at once.
Very nice.
Well there is Psychic Reformation. You can have it all, just not at once... like a Wizard.
Well there is Psychic Reformation. You can have it all, just not at once... like a Wizard.Great, now we have Schrodinger's Psion, who apparently knows all the disciplines simultaneously and can do it all at once.
Very nice.
It says feats, skills, powers, and spells. Says nothing of other class features. So no, you can't have every discipline power.
It says feats, skills, powers, and spells. Says nothing of other class features. So no, you can't have every discipline power.Well there is Psychic Reformation. You can have it all, just not at once... like a Wizard.Great, now we have Schrodinger's Psion, who apparently knows all the disciplines simultaneously and can do it all at once.
Very nice.
That's not what I'm saying...
In the Martial/Caster disparity threads, in arguments, the wizards always knew what was coming, had everything proper prepared, etc. This became known as Schrodinger's Wizard.Now the arguments against the Psion have it doing everything all at once to prove how OP it is (even though it can't, and isn't). Schrodinger's Psion.
Now the arguments against the Psion have it doing everything all at once to prove how OP it is (even though it can't, and isn't). Schrodinger's Psion.
If I remember right you can also leave open spell slots and use fast study to get it just as fast if not faster and without paying up a spell slot.
Can we get back to psions? I want to hear someone explain how they have a magic missile/grease/sleep all at once with a single power.
4. While the number of spell SLOTS available to a Wizard is equal to the number of powers a Psion knows, there is a difference. On day 1, the Wizard can prepare 36 spells, just like the Psion. On day 2, the Wizard can completely change his focus and prepare 36 different spells from day 1, while the Psion still knows the exact same ones. Know you are going to face Undead, prepare the right spells, but be stuck with the same powers.
Not to mention that an actual level 20 wizard is going to have a bunch of bonus slots from intelligence (a 30 Intelligence wizard would be sporting 17 bonus slots). Then there's the extra nine slots from school specialization, So, that adds up to an easy 62 slots before accounting for anything else.
Psionic characters also get bonus points. A 20th level Psion with 30 intelligence gets 100 extra points. That's enough to use 5 more spells burning 20 points at a time.
It's highly unusual and against the pattern of game mechanics for something to basically do the same on a fail or success.... as we learned it was just the GM playing it wrong. I find psionics as a whole fairly well balanced, there's still some parts I think are just not good, that the sustainability of a wilder is amazing, even if they are a "one trick" pony, they will be as versatile as any blaster sorc if not more and can potentially never stop at all.
That part is false.
1. They can't be a one trick pony and be as versatile as a sorcerer.
2. A sorcerer can pick up 2 to 5 blasting spells, probably less, and spend the other spells covering various situations he can affect the battle in several ways and still have out of combat utility.
The wilder can not do as many things with his 11 powers so there is way the versatility is going to match up.
Sorcerer kill you with AoE's, line spells, cone spells, spells that select targets, spells that select one target. <---hit point damage
Spells that cribble(debuff) you without touching your HP.
Battlefield control.
Buff allies.
charm and/or dominate enemies
teleport the party to safety if they are losing.
cast invis to make the party sneak up on someone.
disable invis, and Blind enemies at the same time.
Make the bad guys potentially fight each other.
I could go on.
All of his and more is possible by level 12, some even earlier.
Well, I'd personally like to say 'Thank You' to the OP. Seriously, it was awesome that your actions brought the actual writer out to make all of those clarifications. I know it's not too terribly rare, but to have them come and make 5 points... excellent!!!
To that, I think you should probably take a moment and thank them for stepping out and clarifying FOR YOU.
But n an old campaign of mine, we did:
Dungeon Crawls (all haste, shield, protection from (arrows, evil, good, energy, you pick), ran of enfeeblement, slow, maze and many other buff/debuff spells {} magic missile, lightning bolt, burning hands, and many other blast spells, passwall)
Saved Cities from various disasters (walls, move earth, animate dead, summons, control winds, control water, control weather)
discovered a lost noble (visions, legend lore, locate person, find the path)
sought out and destroyed ancient artifacts (locate object, more legend lore, identify, discern location, arcane sight, mage's disjuntion)
protected a king (foresight, prying eyes, mage armor, various buffs)
died but traveled wit my companions till resurrected (magic jar, dominate person, deep slumber)
smuggled a group of dwarves out of an orc 'city' (MANY flesh to stone, then stone to flesh...this was AWESOME!!! The fighter had a decent CHA and convinced them to do some awesome poses!!!)
provide shelter the whole time secure shelter, magnificent mansion, tiny hut...
angered the DM with FAST travel teleport, TP w/o error, dimension door, planeshift, overland flight, phantom stead
fought a war chain lighting, fireball, walls, veil, mass suggestion, acid fog
was hunted by powerful assassins mislead, dimensional lock, mind blank, private sanctum
was many places at once simulacrum
I'd keep going, but I don't want to be too obnoxious...
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... and if you think that is ALL we encountered... huh. I loved that character, all the way from 1 - 20!!!
... what was his name?? Aah yes, La'Vantis Tuen :)
1) NO SCALING. I cannot stress this enough. While Range/Duration go up like it does for everyone POWER does not. If your Fireball does 5d6 at level 5, it'll do 10d6 at level 10, and you're STILL firing off a level 3 spell slot. A Psion's Energy Ball will *NEVER* grow for free like that. He wants 10d6, he is paying 10 power points, NOT 5..Pis advocates trump out this almost reflexively when this topic comes up. While it is technically accurate, it leaves out one important consideration. While a Psion is pumping out more power points to scale up his save dependent AOE damage spells, i.e. more dice on an Energy cone. The DC of those saves is going up along with the damage. Which is quite different from an arcanist who's fireball DC doesn't change from 5th level, through 10th, or even when it's empowered and intensified at 15th. A psion pumping out more points is equivalent to a wizard using a higher level spell slot to cast a lower level spell to pump up it's effectiveness. Keep also in mind that the wizard has devoted feats to make that possible and the most he can do to up his DC is to expend feats such as spell focus in the applicable school. Feat equivalents which are also available to the Psion.
In campaigns in which nova tatics have no real downside, (the one encounter per day kind, Psions can nova most effectively and with the least expenditure of nonrenewable resources.
Now that said, there are balancing factors, but not on a DPR race basis, where there are no resource management issues to inhibit the use of Nova tactics. Psions do lose out to wizards when it comes to general utility and the ability to develop new powers, and sorcerers when it comes out to tricks not requiring resource expenditure. How they balance out to noncasters is for the eternal caster/non-caster debate threads to war over. I'm not going to enter into that discussion here.
While true, you are quoting post #24 out of the 194 posts prior to this input. This has already been discussed time and time again.
Most questions actually have been answered by the developer (thanks again).
The issue currently on hand in whether or not one may view a Psion as versatile as a Wizard. The general consensus is no.
We are currently waiting to see if the OP is willing to continue posting or not. 1) to thank the developer for their clarification' 2) to rebut our assertion that wizards are more versatile.
I hope this saves you time reading the whole thread.
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Why would I bother? We've a) learned that a power was simply being used improperly and b) I know that it doesn't matter how versatile you think your wizard is in practice he simple isn't as versatile as 34 powers able to be used on the fly.
Any arguments centered around "if he divined first" "if he knew what he was going into first" are moot. If you have that kind of foresight, anyone at all can be prepared, even if it comes down to hiring someone right to do the job.
34 powers, which are as valid at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 20. 34 powers, many of which act essentially as 4 different spells...
If you were to pick only powers that replicate both low lvl abilities, and high lvl abilities, and included powers that cover four elements simultaneously (while many spells require four different ones known)
it would be comparable to a sorcerer having 50+ spells known.
Is there even a cost to them learning those powers as they lvl?
34 powers, which are as valid at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 20. 34 powers, many of which act essentially as 4 different spells...
I think you overestimate the value of each power. Usually they're just scaling. Inertial armor for example just gets a better armor value and cost a higher spell slot equivalent. Its awesome to be able to burn a 9th level spell slot on an epic mage armor, but... its a 9th level spell slot on a really nice mage armor.
Is there even a cost to them learning those powers as they lvl?
It cost just as much as a wizard learning his spells at each level up or a sorcerer/oracle getting his extra spells known. Personally I don't think wealth tax are a really good balance or measure of balance anyway.
Why would I bother? We've a) learned that a power was simply being used improperly and b) I know that it doesn't matter how versatile you think your wizard is in practice he simple isn't as versatile as 34 powers able to be used on the fly.
Any arguments centered around "if he divined first" "if he knew what he was going into first" are moot. If you have that kind of foresight, anyone at all can be prepared, even if it comes down to hiring someone right to do the job.
34 powers, which are as valid at lvl 1 as they are at lvl 20. 34 powers, many of which act essentially as 4 different spells...
If you were to pick only powers that replicate both low lvl abilities, and high lvl abilities, and included powers that cover four elements simultaneously (while many spells require four different ones known)
it would be comparable to a sorcerer having 50+ spells known.
Is there even a cost to them learning those powers as they lvl?
There not 34 encounters a day so it does not matter. What does matter is who can actually solve a higher variety of problems. That is what versatility is.
A wizard with arcane bond can also cast any spell in his spell book, and that is in addition to leaving slots open. You can't get too much more versatile than that. Barring a player that is below average not too many wizards won't have a solution, even if it is not the best solution.
Now the problem may be that you look at versatile differently than I do. You look at it as if the wizard's spellbook is always full, and if he does not have the perfect solution he cant solve the problem.
You also look at a psion have access to 30+ powers right now as being more likely to solve a current problem, but that is not true. If it were true the sorcerer would be better able to handle situations than most wizards, but not many people think sorcerers are better than wizards.
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Hi!
I can't argue with an individual perception and anything I personally bring to the table is just anecdotal evidence.
That said, please take a second to look over the Discipline-specific powers. It will allow you to appreciate that even with some flexibility, a Psion cannot do even the most basic of versatile things a Wizard can.
No basic Psion can both summon Astral Construct, Dominate people (or even Charm them) and Fly. They can't teleport and shapeshift. They can't even cast a fireball or cone of cold (Energy Ball or Energy Cone) while Scrying.
For everyone except Kineticists (the energy-specialists) or Wilders (who already suffer from only ever knowing 11 powers throughout their career), changing your active energy type means expending your psionic focus and reacquiring it, which costs actions and provokes attacks of opportunity.
So if you build that Psion with mostly energy powers that are equivalent to 50+ powers, you're not teleporting, flying, dominating, charming, scrying or shapeshifting. Yourself, or others. That is one of the biggest costs to the perceived flexibility of energy powers.
If you have any other questions about the system, we are all willing to help!
Best regards
- Andreas Rönnqvist
Dreamscarred Press