Can a creature standing on the ground be tripped, even if it is capable of flying?


Rules Questions


The "Flying creatures cannot be tripped" rule is pretty clear cut, unless you ask yourself whether that means "A creature that is capable of flying cannot be tripped" or if it means "A creature that is currently flying cannot be tripped".

So, is the word "flying" in this case a verb or an adjective?

My reading, and general understanding, would be that this means "a creature in the act of flying: Cannot be tripped" But is this correct?

/////

The follow up question. If in fact a creature that can fly can be tripped if it not currently flying...

Can a prone creature fly from the prone position? Or does it need to stand before it can resume flight?


hah! i had these same arguements with my gm awhile back, he wanted to trip my flyer :P we ended up rolling dice, so curious to see answers, lol.


Logically I would look at whether the target of the trip has the ability to hover with their flight. If so, I would recommend that a successful trip attempt allows them to attempt a REF save if they wish to attempt to resort to a hover, avoiding the trip.

Otherwise I assume that standing still they do not have the means to just launch off the ground and will end up tripping just like anyone else.


Have you ever seen a seagull or pelican float in water? They literally cannot stand up before flight. Their only choice is to fly from a prone position.


Mapleswitch wrote:
Have you ever seen a seagull or pelican float in water? They literally cannot stand up before flight. Their only choice is to fly from a prone position.

You cannot be prone in water.

Edit: Well, you cannot be prone 'on' water.

Unless it is somehow acting as a solid surface. Ie. Ice or water-walking maybe.

Anyway, have you ever seen a bird go from on the ground to flying without standing on its feet first?


/agree with maple, they cannot hover either.


Remy Balster wrote:

The "Flying creatures cannot be tripped" rule is pretty clear cut, unless you ask yourself whether that means "A creature that is capable of flying cannot be tripped" or if it means "A creature that is currently flying cannot be tripped".

So, is the word "flying" in this case a verb or an adjective?

My reading, and general understanding, would be that this means "a creature in the act of flying: Cannot be tripped" But is this correct?

/////

The follow up question. If in fact a creature that can fly can be tripped if it not currently flying...

Can a prone creature fly from the prone position? Or does it need to stand before it can resume flight?

A creatue in the act of flying. One not currently supporting itself BY flying is using it's legs and is as vulberable as anyone else.

The line is 'Flying creatures' not 'creatures capable of flight'.


They mean a creature that is currently flying. "Flying creature" is not an official creature category, and if it were all creatures capable of flight would say they can not be tripped right beside the CMD number.


I agree it means creature that are currently flying, otherwise you could have some nonsensical interpretations. A wizard with the fly spell prepared can fly. Even if he has not yet cast it he is capable of doing so, yet since he can fly you could reach the interpretation that he can't be tripped. But that is balderdash.

However, I would assume that if a creature is in the 5ft square in contact with the ground he would not actually be touching the ground and would instead be hovering if he has 0 chance to fail at the DC 15 check to hover. And thats to not move at all. If the creature moves, but less than half its movement speed it's a DC 10. If the creature moves half its movement speed or more then it doesn't have to make a check at all. So in general, all creature capable of flight hover or otherwise do not come in contact with the ground. Its a valid tactic in my mind, if a bit of an annoyance to trip builds, but c'est la vie.


I'm just playing a bit of devils advocate. I do believe if you are standing without also flying, you can be tripped, but i do believe you should be able to start flying from prone.


Flight is giving me trouble in general it seems. But I see the points many of you are making. The line is referring to a creature in flight. That makes the most sense in my mind.

But it opens the door to weird questions. Such as the prone/standing/flying one.

What actual conditions would cause a flying creature to be unable to fly? Dead/unconscious, they clearly would. What about entangled, staggered, stunned, or even a grapple?

I'd love a full write up combat flight rules. It seems strange they are so brief and sometimes vague.


Remy Balster wrote:

Flight is giving me trouble in general it seems. But I see the points many of you are making. The line is referring to a creature in flight. That makes the most sense in my mind.

But it opens the door to weird questions. Such as the prone/standing/flying one.

What actual conditions would cause a flying creature to be unable to fly? Dead/unconscious, they clearly would. What about entangled, staggered, stunned, or even a grapple?

I'd love a full write up combat flight rules. It seems strange they are so brief and sometimes vague.

They're brief because they get ridiculously complicated fast. It's something you would build an entire combat system around.


The rules don't describe any restrictions on taking flight while prone. I'd rule it case-by-case. Mentally-activated superpower flight could do it, a winged creature with poor maneuverability probably can't. (Crouching for takeoff is not the same as lying on your face with your legs knocked out from under you.) Either way, if they aren't flying at that moment, they can be tripped.

Agreed that flight could use a full treatment. Heck, it probably warrants an entire supplement, or a chapter in a larger supplement.

Liberty's Edge

The PF restriction on tripping a flying creature treats flying as a verb, not an adjective. If a creature is capable of flight, but is standing, it can be tripped. A creature incapable of standing, such as a winged snake, cannot be tripped. The basis of this is inherent to game's meanings of tripping, standing, and prone.

I know of no rules based requirement for a flier to be standing prior to flight. Justification for such a requirement is outside the scope of the rules and gets into play style. It basically sees a leg thrust as being a requirement to become airborne, that wings require some space, or the like.

Games with such requirements logically need to desl with many additional factors as judgement calls, and run into multiple arguments based on personal experience. Examples include things like movement of a large die bat in a 10 foot corridor, use of some weapons in confined spaces, etc. Magic vs natural flight may enter into such a discussion. A game played under such a style is certainly playable and enjoyable for those who go in for it, but generate challenges for short running games.

The game limits tripping to a creature that is standing. It's somewhat biased this way, particularly given the lack of related manouvers to disrupt movement by fliers, swimmers, etc. 3.5 dealt with this differently, and in my mind, was better for it. This isn't an edition war statement, the lack in PF is more a matter of ink and space, methinks.


Now for the real monkey wrench.
Can a creature that is levitating be tripped?


Evilserran wrote:
I'm just playing a bit of devils advocate. I do believe if you are standing without also flying, you can be tripped, but i do believe you should be able to start flying from prone.

There are no rules against it. Superman flies prone instead of vertical.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Evilserran wrote:
I'm just playing a bit of devils advocate. I do believe if you are standing without also flying, you can be tripped, but i do believe you should be able to start flying from prone.
There are no rules against it. Superman flies prone instead of vertical.

Superman doesn't use wings. he's in the category of magical flight.

If you're using legs to hold you up against gravity, you can be tripped. If you're a winged serpentine creature like an illend, you have trip immunity because of that.

If you are prone and have a fly or levitate in operation, you can rise, but you will provoke.


If a creature is capable of flight but no flying, it should be trippable. I would add the caveat that a creature that has PERFECT MANUEVERABILITY could avoid that.


LazarX wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Evilserran wrote:
I'm just playing a bit of devils advocate. I do believe if you are standing without also flying, you can be tripped, but i do believe you should be able to start flying from prone.
There are no rules against it. Superman flies prone instead of vertical.

Superman doesn't use wings. he's in the category of magical flight.

If you're using legs to hold you up against gravity, you can be tripped. If you're a winged serpentine creature like an illend, you have trip immunity because of that.

If you are prone and have a fly or levitate in operation, you can rise, but you will provoke.

The fly rules dont say anything about wings. They only mention flight. A wizard using the fly spell still can't be tripped.

You will provoke if you are prone or not just for the movement, and there is not rule that says moving while prone is a factor. Crawling while prone provokes and standing up from prone provokes so just fly while prone, and yes that will provoke, but if you stand up and then fly, you will provoke twice.

The illend has immunity to trip because of its serpentine body. That is why nagas can't be tripped.


I think we've established that RAW doesn't really answer most of the questions involved--at least not to everyone's satisfaction--and that the GM is responsible for refining the system--or not refining it--to something her group can work with.

Incidentally, RAW, there's no such thing as flying while prone. Prone is defined as

Quote:
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

so I'm not certain where that discussion is going.


blahpers wrote:

I think we've established that RAW doesn't really answer most of the questions involved--at least not to everyone's satisfaction--and that the GM is responsible for refining the system--or not refining it--to something her group can work with.

Incidentally, RAW, there's no such thing as flying while prone. Prone is defined as

Quote:
Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
so I'm not certain where that discussion is going.

Good point..I guess the question then goes to flying horizontally, which there is no rule against. :)


So, yes, a creature that can fly can be tripped as long as it is not flying.

There are a LOT of things that can prevent flying, or cause a fall.

(1) If you grapple a creature, it can still fly, but the grappled condition means that it can't move, so if it doesn't escape, it will need to make a Hover check (DC 15 Fly Check) with the -4 dex from being grappled to avoid losing altitude.

(2) If you deal damage to a flying creature it must make a DC 10 fly check EVERY time it is damaged or immediately lose 10ft of altitude.

(3) If the creature becomes Pinned, it plummets to the ground. When you are pinned you cannot take actions other than to attempt an escape or try to cast a spell. So you can't make fly checks or actively fly in any way. The creature can attempt to escape the pin on its round, and if it fails, it will immediately "plummet" taking fall damage. If the flight is magical, they also fall. Since the spell is still in effect, they do not gain the benefit of the slower fall rate listed in the spell.

(4) An entangled creature (that is not tethered) can only move up to half speed and gets -4 dex. This still applies to flight, including magical flight. A creature that is flying that moves only Half Speed or less must make a DC 10 fly check (with that -4 dex penalty). If it fails, it plummets.

(5) If the entangled creature is tethered, it makes a Hover Check instead to remain flying. If it fails it plummets.

These are all pretty easy checks (except pinned or held etc. where these is no check) for creatures with good or better maneuverability, but clumsy creatures can struggle.

There is also a note about flight that is important.
Say you are a Full Plate wearing fighter, and you gave up Armor Training for some archtype and you only have a 12 dex and no points in the Fly skill. You click your heels together to activate a Fly spell using winged boots.

You get +4 to fly checks for the spell, and +1 for your dex, you also get +4 for having "good" maneuverability. You then take a -5 (assuming masterwork plate) for your armor check penalty.

Your total Fly check is then +4. There is a good chance, then, that this fighter can fail any of the above fly checks.

If a stone giant throws a rock at a small flying character and hits,they need to make a DC 25 fly check to avoid falling (As per collision rules under the Fly skill).

I think that the flight rules are actually pretty robust.


Does casting fly on a creature cure them of the prone condition?

Shadow Lodge

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René P wrote:
Does casting fly on a creature cure them of the prone condition?

Why would it? They may be ABLE to fly but their still prone. Having the ability to fly doesnt automaticly mean yor "in flight".

Edit: also I think a static DC 10 check after taking damage is a little overpowered. Most creatures have a fly skill well over +10.


As to the prone thing, this is pretty easy.

When you are prone, you can only move by "crawling" which lets you move 5ft, and provokes AoOs as a move action. You can also stand as a move action. You cannot make normal moves while prone (unless you have monkey style or some such exception).

This would apply to any other mode of movement as well, as I can see no reason or rule that suggests otherwise. You have to stand up to take off... makes sense.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I think this is just one of those gray areas of the rules. You're probably not going to get a clear-cut answer.

Personally, I would rule that if a creature could fly without having to spend an action to activate it (such as with an Aasimar's Angel Wings, or the alchemist's Wings discovery), I'd let them make a Reflex save or Fly check against the result of the CMB roll to "catch" themselves in the air.


Lord_Malkov wrote:

As to the prone thing, this is pretty easy.

When you are prone, you can only move by "crawling" which lets you move 5ft, and provokes AoOs as a move action. You can also stand as a move action. You cannot make normal moves while prone (unless you have monkey style or some such exception).

This would apply to any other mode of movement as well, as I can see no reason or rule that suggests otherwise. You have to stand up to take off... makes sense.

Quote:


Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Quote:
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack opportunity.

I see no rule saying you must stand up before flying. You have to stand up before walking because you can't walk while prone, since the normal use of your legs is prohibited.


wraithstrike wrote:
Lord_Malkov wrote:

As to the prone thing, this is pretty easy.

When you are prone, you can only move by "crawling" which lets you move 5ft, and provokes AoOs as a move action. You can also stand as a move action. You cannot make normal moves while prone (unless you have monkey style or some such exception).

This would apply to any other mode of movement as well, as I can see no reason or rule that suggests otherwise. You have to stand up to take off... makes sense.

Quote:


Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Quote:
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack opportunity.
I see no rule saying you must stand up before flying. You have to stand up before walking because you can't walk while prone, since the normal use of your legs is prohibited.

You also don't see any specific wording that says that you can't run while prone if you want to get technical. The RAW here is poorly written, and it never actually states that you can't move while prone, just that you are considered prone when crawling.

So, if we follow the rabbit hole here, I can take a 5ft step while prone, I can run and charge while prone, I can do whatever. I just get -4 on melee attacks, -4 AC against melee attacks and can spend a move action to stand up.

However RAI says that your movement mode while prone is restricted to "Crawling", including all that this implies. In fact, the reason that you can't 5ft step while prone is that "Crawl" is not a movement mode for which you have a listed speed.

The Fast Crawl feat helps back this up.


The reason to stand before you can walk prone is based on common sense. You can't walk if you are not standing so the rules don't need to explain it. That logic does not apply to flying. Being prone is not going to shut magic down. If it is non magical flight then I might understand, but the rules being that distinctive would just add more complexity to the game.

As things are, there is no rule against it. For a home game I would go by how they were flying, but my ruling that one method of flight is easier to use than another is a houserule, and not relevant in this subforum.


The rules NEVER say your movement is restricted to crawling while prone, and no my logic does not support charging while prone. See my last post for why you need to stand up.

The rules say that if you are crawling you are considered to be prone. The two are not the same.

edit:You can't 5 foot step because the game assumes normal walking when the rule was written, and you must be standing for normal walking before you take any type of step.


You can't 5 ft. step for precisely the reason I stated. Crawling is considered a movement mode (as is climbing swimming flying etc.) and you can't 5ft step when using a movement mode for which you do not have a listed speed (See Monkey Moves). So you can't 5ft step while Crawling and you can't 5ft step while climbing (unless you have a climb speed or crawl speed).

If you are not limited to crawling while prone, then what exactly prevents a character from moving regularly when prone? I mean of course it is common sense, but why else would the rules on crawling even exist? As some weird edge case for intentionally crawling around 5ft per round?

Even magical flying requires checks and some type of activity. You have a fly speed, that is all. You don't have wings, so you don't plummet any time you fail a check by 5 or more, this is called out in the Skill chapter on Fly. Other than that, you follow all the normal rules for flying.

Either way, any movement mode requires some physical action. For this same reason if you are paralyzed (but not unconscious) you can take mental actions, but you can't just keep flying around because 'magic'.


Jacob Saltband wrote:
René P wrote:
Does casting fly on a creature cure them of the prone condition?

Why would it? They may be ABLE to fly but their still prone. Having the ability to fly doesnt automaticly mean yor "in flight".

Edit: also I think a static DC 10 check after taking damage is a little overpowered. Most creatures have a fly skill well over +10.

I completely agree. I house rule DC 10 + the amount of damage taken. It makes flying a bit more dangerous, as it should be, without seriously impeding high-altitude combat.


RAW does not require you to stand up before you can fly--or burrow, or swim, or whatever. I'm actually okay with this, though I might rule differently if the situation demands it.


blahpers wrote:
RAW does not require you to stand up before you can fly--or burrow, or swim, or whatever. I'm actually okay with this, though I might rule differently if the situation demands it.

RAW does not require you to stand up before you can run or charge either, its an oversight in the rules. The question is, how far does that oversight extend?

I think that it is fair to say that a Winged creature that is prone would need to get its feet under itself before taking flight. Since magical flight follows all the rules for regular flight, I don't see why it should be treated differently, although I can understand houseruling it that way.

As for the damaged-while-flying check. Yeah its pretty weak. I would think that its meant to be. Adult Dragons only have a +12 fly check, if you use DC = 10 +dmg, then 4 arrows from a single archer will bring the dragon down by 40 feet. Moreover, if the dragon fails a check by 5 or more it plummets (since it is a winged creature). That means that an 8 damage attack could theoretically drop an Adult Dragon like a stone.

Personally, I think that check should probably be equal to damage taken, minimum DC of 10. But I don't have an issue with the rules as they are. It is hard for PCs to get decent fly checks. A wizard using fly is just getting 1/2 level + dex + 4, since he can't put ranks in the skill.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blahpers wrote:
RAW does not require you to stand up before you can fly--or burrow, or swim, or whatever. I'm actually okay with this, though I might rule differently if the situation demands it.

Whether you stand up or not, if you fly or get up from prone, you're going to provoke from anyone who threathens. Which means a penalised fly check if you get hit.

Shadow Lodge

Why cant a wizard put ranks in the fly skill? Fly is a class skill for them so why cant they put ranks in it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jacob Saltband wrote:
Why cant a wizard put ranks in the fly skill? Fly is a class skill for them so why cant they put ranks in it?

You can't put in ranks until you have reliable access to flight... such as learning the Fly spell at 5th level. Generous DM's might allow it at third with Alter Self. Keep in mind that turning into a Strix in public might present other problems.


Lord_Malkov wrote:

You can't 5 ft. step for precisely the reason I stated. Crawling is considered a movement mode (as is climbing swimming flying etc.) and you can't 5ft step when using a movement mode for which you do not have a listed speed (See Monkey Moves). So you can't 5ft step while Crawling and you can't 5ft step while climbing (unless you have a climb speed or crawl speed).

If you are not limited to crawling while prone, then what exactly prevents a character from moving regularly when prone? I mean of course it is common sense, but why else would the rules on crawling even exist? As some weird edge case for intentionally crawling around 5ft per round?

Even magical flying requires checks and some type of activity. You have a fly speed, that is all. You don't have wings, so you don't plummet any time you fail a check by 5 or more, this is called out in the Skill chapter on Fly. Other than that, you follow all the normal rules for flying.

Either way, any movement mode requires some physical action. For this same reason if you are paralyzed (but not unconscious) you can take mental actions, but you can't just keep flying around because 'magic'.

I understand your point. I just disagree. I think that if this is FAQ'd the devs will not require you to stand before you fly. It should not be need to burrow either since you are going into the ground anyway. Standing just so you an go down would make no sense to, BUT for a burrowing creature to get a position to burrow might make sense because being prone could put you on your back, and you can't burrow while you are on your back.

PS: As for your question "
If you are not limited to crawling while prone, then what exactly prevents a character from moving regularly when prone? "

I already answered that. You have to stand to move normally if you are walking. If you are using land(I dont mean burrowing) movement and you are prone then you are crawling. I don't think the other methods of movement are as limited RAI or RAW.

Grand Lodge

wraithstrike wrote:

The rules NEVER say your movement is restricted to crawling while prone, and no my logic does not support charging while prone. See my last post for why you need to stand up.

The rules say that if you are crawling you are considered to be prone. The two are not the same.

edit:You can't 5 foot step because the game assumes normal walking when the rule was written, and you must be standing for normal walking before you take any type of step.

Actually, you can't 5' step while prone because of the requirement, in the rules, that you can only take a 5' step if you have more than 5' of movement available to you.

Since you can only crawl 5' as a move action, you don't have enough movement available to take a 5' step.

I think there is at least one creature around that only has a 5' movement rate (reefclaws on land?) so it cannot take a 5' step when it is using that movement mode.


kinevon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The rules NEVER say your movement is restricted to crawling while prone, and no my logic does not support charging while prone. See my last post for why you need to stand up.

The rules say that if you are crawling you are considered to be prone. The two are not the same.

edit:You can't 5 foot step because the game assumes normal walking when the rule was written, and you must be standing for normal walking before you take any type of step.

Actually, you can't 5' step while prone because of the requirement, in the rules, that you can only take a 5' step if you have more than 5' of movement available to you.

Since you can only crawl 5' as a move action, you don't have enough movement available to take a 5' step.

I think there is at least one creature around that only has a 5' movement rate (reefclaws on land?) so it cannot take a 5' step when it is using that movement mode.

No..you are limited for the reason I listed. There is no reason to say you can't fly or burrow if you have the method of movement. If I am prone on the top of the water you are saying I have to crawl on top of the water, and I can not swim?


Lord_Malkov wrote:
You also don't see any specific wording that says that you can't run while prone if you want to get technical. The RAW here is poorly written, and it never actually states that you can't move while prone, just that you are considered prone when crawling.

The RAW isn't poorly written. It's just not going to cover every possible contingency, because it's inevitable that some player comes up with something else not thought of by the authors. That's for a GM to fairly adjudicate.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not really in favor of "save yourself from being tripped" checks (that's what your CMD is for), but for what it's worth any such check should be a Fly check, not a Reflex save.


wraithstrike wrote:
kinevon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

The rules NEVER say your movement is restricted to crawling while prone, and no my logic does not support charging while prone. See my last post for why you need to stand up.

The rules say that if you are crawling you are considered to be prone. The two are not the same.

edit:You can't 5 foot step because the game assumes normal walking when the rule was written, and you must be standing for normal walking before you take any type of step.

Actually, you can't 5' step while prone because of the requirement, in the rules, that you can only take a 5' step if you have more than 5' of movement available to you.

Since you can only crawl 5' as a move action, you don't have enough movement available to take a 5' step.

I think there is at least one creature around that only has a 5' movement rate (reefclaws on land?) so it cannot take a 5' step when it is using that movement mode.

No..you are limited for the reason I listed. There is no reason to say you can't fly or burrow if you have the method of movement. If I am prone on the top of the water you are saying I have to crawl on top of the water, and I can not swim?

We already established that being prone only happens on the ground.


I would say he can be tripped.

Now that being said how does he fly?

If its magical wingless flight he can fly off the ground from prone (though it'd provoke unless he could withdraw).

If its winged flight he'd have to stand up first(which provokes).

But I don't see why someone who can fly(but isn't) cannot be knocked prone.


Is it easier, or harder, to resume walking from prone than it is to resume flying from prone?

Since there is references to 'crawling' being tossed about. What if you managed to trip a spider? It goes prone. Now it can only crawl? Uh... it was crawling before it got tripped...

The action to get up from prone, it to recover from being laid out on the ground. If someone just tripped you and you face planted, it takes a sec to recover from that...

Is it any easier to recover if you have a pair of wings on your back?

For ease of imagination, picture a humanoid creature with wings. He is running around in ground combat like a fool, and gets tripped. Now he is tasting dirt, and prone. So, can this guy start flying away, or does he need to stand up first?


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

I would say he can be tripped.

Now that being said how does he fly?

If its magical wingless flight he can fly off the ground from prone (though it'd provoke unless he could withdraw).

If its winged flight he'd have to stand up first(which provokes).

But I don't see why someone who can fly(but isn't) cannot be knocked prone.

My intuition is telling me this is the most correct interpretation of how the whole thing would play out.

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