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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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After a party has reached the next level and they encounter a creature for which they have already rolled knowledge checks, should they be allowed to roll them again if they have put an additional skill point in that knowledge?
Yes; they've acquired new knowledge since last time, and perhaps this was part of the new data.
You might also offer a +2 circumstance bonus, since they'd be more likely to pay attention to what they were learning if they fought one before.
Yeah, the rules don't seem to specify, but their increased score represents knew knowledge being gained. They absolutely should be able to try again.
I also allow PCs a chance to try again should they gain access to a library or other source of information on the subject (though they have to spend the 1d4 hours researching the subject first.)
Yes. Not sure if it's RAW or not, but I always allow a Knowledge check to be retried if the bonus increases. It represents new knowledge, and who knows, maybe that failed check was part of it. :)
The Knowledge skill is missing a lot. For example, using a library for 1d4 hours by itself doesn't improve Knowledge checks at all other than lifting the DC 10 limit for untrained checks. Only a "particularly complete" library "might" grant a bonus to such checks. There is no rule allowing one to ever retry a Knowledge check, even if you gain five ranks, three points of Intelligence, take a few levels of bard, and gain access to the Library of Alexandria and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Fortunately, we have GMs.
Let us imagine that you wish to identify a unicorn. The unicorn is a Magical Beast of CR 3, so it's a DC13 knowledge check to know things about it.
At level 1, with one ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you have a total knowledge modifier of maybe +7 (int 16, class skill). You have a 75% chance, but you could fail the check.
At level 20, with 20 ranks in Knowledge (arcana), a +6 headband, a +5 inherent bonus, and 5 level-up points put in int, you now have an int of 32, giving you a +11 int mod, so you're at +34. You would make that check if you rolled a -21 on a d20.
But so far as I can tell, RAW, since you saw a Unicorn when you were 1st level and happened not to recognize it, you're just screwed. You can never know what the hell that thing is. You could, by now, have spent years of your life living among unicorns, shapeshifted into one, and raised a family with it, and you'd still be all "uhhhh... maybe a... pointy-headed horse? sort of a defective goat, perhaps?"
Pretty sure you'd be allowed a reroll per encounter. Whether that's an encounter with the monster itself, or a library to look it up, or whatever. It makes sense that you'd learn more each time.
seebs wrote: But so far as I can tell, RAW, since you saw a Unicorn when you were 1st level and happened not to recognize it, you're just screwed. You can never know what the hell that thing is. All RAW really says is that you can't continue rolling and rolling and rolling until you succeed.
IMO, any new knowledge (and gaining +1 to the skill check in question would be new knowledge) would let you roll again. Why? Because the line prohibiting rerolls speaks of "something you never learned in the first place". The new knowledge you just gained might have been on this particular topic, or it might not, but you won't know that until you roll.
Edit: Personally, I simply assume that the party would have researched the creature in question during downtime. So the second time they encounter such a creature, the knowledge check would be automatic.
But it doesn't say "Retry: Not until you gain points", it says "Retry: No".
Obviously that's stupid, but my view is, it's useful to separate out the question of "what could any sane person ever do with this" from the question of "what does the book say".
Yup. Technically speaking by RAW knowledge checks can never be retried. But it is such an obvious oversight that it doesn't need to be clarified. If you don't think it is obvious then re-read what Seebs wrote above this comment.
When people first enter combat with a creature I always allow people a reactive knowledge check on the creature. This check is a free action.
I allow people to retry a failed check as soon as their total bonus change so if the character were to fail the check and then cast fox cunning I would allow a new check, however I would make it a standard action of concentrating.
Are wrote: seebs wrote: But so far as I can tell, RAW, since you saw a Unicorn when you were 1st level and happened not to recognize it, you're just screwed. You can never know what the hell that thing is. All RAW really says is that you can't continue rolling and rolling and rolling until you succeed.
IMO, any new knowledge (and gaining +1 to the skill check in question would be new knowledge) would let you roll again. Why? Because the line prohibiting rerolls speaks of "something you never learned in the first place". The new knowledge you just gained might have been on this particular topic, or it might not, but you won't know that until you roll.
Edit: Personally, I simply assume that the party would have researched the creature in question during downtime. So the second time they encounter such a creature, the knowledge check would be automatic.
Incorrect. RAW clearly states that you cannot retry! Technically speaking that does mean you cannot retry even with a new rank. This is one of the cases where RAW is so stupid that noone would EVER enforce it. It is also a case where RAI clearly is intended that you can have other checks just not endless reactive checks without changing your knowledge modifier somehow.
What exactly is incorrect about "IMO" and "Personally"? I didn't say either of those were RAW.
Are wrote: What exactly is incorrect about "IMO" and "Personally"? I didn't say either of those were RAW. You wrote "All RAW really says is that you can't continue rolling and rolling untill you succeed."
RAW clearly states no retrys.
I decided to go a little deeper into the RAW:
PRD, Skill Descriptions wrote: Try Again: Any conditions that apply to successive attempts to use the skill successfully. So, the "Try again" line only applies to successive attempts. Seeing a second unicorn a year after the first and trying to identify it won't be a successive attempt.
Huh, that's a really interesting argument.
Is "successive" defined?
Because, say, consider:
1. I try a knowledge check, and fail. Next turn, I draw a weapon, then try again. Since I did something else, is this no longer "successive"?
2. What about other uses of the knowledge skill? Can I retry after I have done something else with the skill, like trying to identify some other thing?
I guess my point is: I don't see a way to interpret "successive" that is consistent with normal English usage, and which allows a retry a year later, but not an hour or a minute later.
@Are: That line of reasoning surely won't have any unintended consequences, such as allowing a player infinite Knowledge (or Appraise, or whatever) checks so long as they take an action between them. Surely!
erh... Where did you say you have your quote from? I took this directly from pathfinder srd knowledge skill:
Try Again
No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
http://paizo.com/prd/skills/knowledge.html
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/knowledge
Both these pages has the quote I used.
Since "successive" isn't a rules term, but a term in the English language, it would be up to each individual GM to determine what counts as "successive" within the context of the game :)
Lifat wrote: erh... Where did you say you have your quote from? From the Skill Descriptions page (below the table with all the skills).
Are wrote: Since "successive" isn't a rules term, but a term in the English language, it would be up to each individual GM to determine what counts as "successive" within the context of the game :) And where did you get the quote from? I have 2 separate pathfinder pages AND the core rulebook and under knowledge "retry" it doesn't say anything near what you quoted.
It's in the general skills rules:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills
Are wrote: Lifat wrote: erh... Where did you say you have your quote from? From the Skill Descriptions page (below the table with all the skills). Thank you. I was looking all over. I will definitely be using that as an argument for letting people roll again when they obtain a new modifier.
RAW still isn't clearcut but considering noone in their right mind would ever bar anyone with an extra rank from getting a new try I will consider the discussion over for my part at least.
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